Hi, SH.

You don't have to suffer beyond the end of the relationship. You can call it quits at anytime. That is your choice. You have to decide what you are willing to put up with or not. What you must not allow yourself to do is wallow about in depression and self pity. That will only make the hurt last longer.

If you can afford a session or two with Steve Harley, I would recommend it. He is a bona fide expert at relationships suffering from an affair.

You can rest assured that your hubby wants to sit on the fence, and make it all your fault. No doubt you contributed to the condition of your marriage pre-affair, but you didn't force him between other woman's legs at gunpoint. He made the choice to go outside of your relationship rather than working within its boundaries. He chose to do what he is doing, and NONE of that is your fault.

Don't let him guilt you into accepting blame for his bad choices.

Do stop arguing with him. You are wasting your time. There is a poster here named Orchid. I suggest you look her up and ask her for help on dealing with your wayward spouse's 'babble'.

Please be aware that cheaters lie. The only way right now for you to determine when you are hearing truth from your wayward hubby, is when his actions match his words. Otherwise, you can mostly discard anything else he has to say.

Another question for you. Does the other woman's hubby, friends, parents, coworkers, know about the affair? What about your hubby's side of things?

Think about this. If the affair and other person is so great, shouldn't everyone know about it?

Please consider a session with Steve Harley, and please continue to read the articles on this site.

God bless,
Gimble

You are right. I am not forced to continue to suffer the pain. It is a choice if I want to continue this path. I guess I do. Of course, depending on the path going forward. I did have a discussion with H and I think although it was baby steps, it is a step forward. And H's actions appear to be matching his words. H has stayed at our house at least several days last week, and def. since he came back from camping over the weekend. And I noted on the blog in which he and OW write a marked difference in the communication. Strictly hobby stuff.


Well, H called me last night from the house when he got home from work. Said he was tired and planned to go to bed. Said he had all the paperwork for the realtor ready (just some more stuff). Sounded happy to talk to me.
We had a very good conversation.
I broke the golden rule and talked about our R, but the timing felt very right and at some point you have to. I told him I had some things I wanted to say and that he could feel free to interject, that I would appreciate him listening.
I told him the following:
I value you as a person, I value your friendship and I value you as my H.
I want you to know it is safe for you to talk openly with me about what is going on with you. That I realize this whole thing is hard for you too and that your inner struggles are important to me. I acknowledge that I have acted very emotionally and impulsively when this started and I have committed to and have changed that. I want you to feel safe to talk to me without fear of judgement or retaliation. I want you to know I am committed to making things work and to restoring our M. I realize that I helped create the sitch. because I was not providing you with the emotional needs you were seeking.
I know that honesty and openness are critical to success of rebuilding our R. I understand it may be hard to say some things, but I want you to not fear hurting me. I am asking you to be completely honest with me. I am your friend and I am on your side.
I said I am confused about what is happening right now. I agree we each need to build ourselves up and allow some time for healing. That we need to rebuild our friendship.
I also know that you have had a R (didn't use A word) that was more than a friendship and that a R still exists, though I don't know what it is right now. I ask that you be honest and don't downplay that R. I realize that that R had nothing to do with what caused your unhappiness however it does impact our ability to work on things now. I said that I am not angry about that R, however I am sad that it happened.
I said I appreciate that you value what we have and are taking steps towards working on us. I appreciate that you are living at the house and are communicating with me, and helping me with the financial stuff.
I said that I realize that many of our difficulties were caused by my issues and I am committed to continual growth and I am working towards being the person I want to be and that you deserve to be with.
I also believe that despite my many faults, I am a good person and I have been a good wife in many ways. I think that because of this I am deserving of you making an effort to repair our M.
I am not expecting a quick fix or making plans for the future.
I do not think that working on our M has to be a miserable I believe it can benefit us as individuals and as a couple. I believe that if we are committed to being honest, supportive and respectful that it can be a rewarding experience.
I told you I am choosing to live each moment by moment and to not cause further harm. I believe you have decided the same thing and I appreciate that you are living in the house.
I do not believe that we can work on our M in earnest if you are having another R on the side. I understand that you share a hobby and circle of friends. I am asking that you limit all contact with her to only group activities, outside of her home, and no overnights. I ask that you do not discuss our R with her or your friends. I commit that I will not discuss our R with others as well. I think we should agree to only discuss our R with eachother and our C.
Thank you for listening to my longwindedness. I realize I am bringing up the OW, however I am asking for some reassurance here.
H's response:
You have been a good wife, you are a good wife. You are a great person.
I am willing to work on our R. I do think that we need some time to work on ourselves and to heal and to work on our friendship.
I am limiting contact with OW to only group activities outside her home. She and I could have something more than a friendship. It is one of those things in life where things could be...we could have something great. I have not chosen that. It's like when you have different things in life that could be, but you make a decision. You could have gone to medical school, but you chose not to. (OK, some minimizing the issue). I will not discuss our R with anyone else. Really, the biggest thing with OW is that she is actively involved in my hobby. It is about the hobby, not the R.
H told me he has decided that all women are crazy anyway. (some of the things he didn't like about me, he is getting with her I think...hmmm, could it be some of his R skills? His escape isn't such a great escape but some of the same?)
H said it may be awhile before he will be ready to see other people, like my family. But he said it will happen over time. Must mean he is thinking about a future with me.
H said he thought this was a good conversation and that he appreciates it and that he will call me on Thurs.

Overall, pretty good conversation. H is not ending all contact with OW, and is minimizing what is there, and the risk of continuing the R. I wish he felt sorry enough to end it, would say, you are so much more important, I will never speak to her again. But I think there was some honesty there. And he was the calm H I know. The alien seems to be taking a nap for the moment.
I know that H is making an effort. I do not believe he can successfully not allow his R with OW be more than friendship. We all know that about A. But baby step I guess. And we will be able to work on that more later.
The conversation was good and I hope we can continue to move forward.
H is to call and schedule our C session. His work schedule is not consistent hours at the moment so it may be a little difficult. I will just be patient with this.
So not a confrontation, no attacking, but I did bring up stuff I am not supposed to I guess. I do think it was productive. I am not going to expect no backslides from H however, but I think if they happen, it will really hurt.

What do you guys think of this conversation? If you even read this whole thing!
Next steps I think to take- goals to have

continue to validate and to appreciate and to spend recreational companionship time. Continue personal growth and 180s. Allow the C session to focus on his issues and his needs to show that I am not making it all about me.
I don't think I should immediately bring up OW again...but I need to somehow work on him committing to ending all contact. This I believe will need C input to do. I just hope he doesn't jump back into A, which is a real risk and threat. But I cannot panic or push too hard, or H will think I haven't changed one bit. So I need to address it, but I need to work on how I do that. H will not want to give up his club.

Today I am not feeling hopeful at all.
The realtor needs us to sign some paperwork right away for the bank. Wants to do it this evening. So I left a mssg on our home phone for H and sent an email too. By 10pm no reply and realtor wanted me to call her and let her know so she could schedule her day. So I had this number, OW's #, and I called it. Asked for H. H sounded cold. I told him what I needed to. H said I could have texted him. I explained that he doesn't have any minutes so I didn't think he could rec' texts. H said he can.
Then I said you are going home tonight right? H said yes. I said are you alone together? (he had said he would only see her in group settings just the day before) He said we've already talked about this and I'm not going in circles. I said I love you. He said OK. I said can you say it back? He said no, you are just playing games.
Then I texted him and said I know I am insecure. I will trust you to be tru to what you said yesterday. See you tomorrow.
I am feeling down because I think he did stay the night there, he was alone with her, he now will be mad that I called there, and made that I asked questions. I feel like any progress I think is made is just false.
I dreamt last night that we got back together, that I found a bunch of hickeys on him and the A wasn't over.
I think all this makes me have hope when maybe I should just not have hope. I feel so sad because I can't even get myself to feel hope for anything anymore. I just feel sad and like I am in a nightmare that wont end.
Now today I have to go see him and the realtor at our house. I don't know even what to say, I don't want to go. Should I say anything, or just act like it didn't happen? Should I just waltz in and be happy and then say I have plans and go?

So here's what happened. H got there, I was out on the patio on the phone. Waved hi but didn't stop by call, just kind of ignored him and laughed and chatted on the phone. Then H told me about his day at work, etc. I did some validation. I wasn't too chatty today. I told H when C session was scheduled and he said he'd be sure to make it.
H was on the computer so I just let him be. He then started reading aloud from a book I had out. It was Not Just Friends. I conveniently left it at the house when I left.
H mentioned he hadn't rec'd the email I sent yesterday...I said it must have been deleted by accident or something. He agreed. I said now that I know I can still text you if I need to get ahold of you that will work. I told him I threw the number out and won't call it again. He said he didn't care. I then said I must tell you that I am hurt that just the other day you said you'd only see her in group activities and also not at her house. Then the very next day you didn't follow through. He said "says who? That was her cell and I wasn't at her house and there were other people there." I said, ok I guess that could be true. I then said but I also looked on the blog and saw that she wrote about you tucking her in and that is not limiting it to group activities. He said she slept at the house we were at. When she wanted to go to bed she kept leaning on me on the couch and I told her to go upstairs and go to bed and that is it. I said "well I don't want to keep talking about this and I had hoped our conversation the other day had cleared some things up. I said I have some boundaries and if you are going to remain friends with her you need to set some boundaries with her and let her know that it is absolutely not welcome and draw a line. I said because you have crossed the line of friendship with her it needs to be clear and that is my boundary. I was very firm but calm. H said ok. That's it! SHOCK! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
I said I can deal with the hurt I have but I cannot take any more hurt. He said we keep saying we won't talk about it anymore, but we do and he understands. H said I would tell you more but you may use it against me, but I think she is kinda weird and she gets on my nerves anyway. I'm not even attracted to her anymore.
I just listened.
Then realtors came and quick paper signing.
Then I hung out for about 10 minutes and said I had to go, I am going out. H replied oh so you can do it. I said it is not a date. H asked about getting together over the weekend. I said I had plans on Sunday. He said he may have to work on Sat, but he'd call. I think I may just be too busy to get together. I'll think about it. But his lang. of love is recreat. compan. so maybe I should do it. At the same time, DBing says not to be too avail and not to accept all invites. So maybe today wasn't classic DBing, didn't make H feel all mushy inside, but I stood up for myself in a clear and calm way and I am glad I did.
Monday we have our first MC session with Michele. Then after that maybe we can spend a little quality time, such as a movie.
That's all folks. I think I did pretty good considering my emotions ran the gamet (sp?) earlier today and I really cried and then I was feeling angry. I think I have made peace for what has happened and am not angry for that, I do feel my plate of hurt is full and I don't know if I will be so forgiving if he plays me more. I know I can't have expectations and I know he could very well still be lying but I do think he is starting to re-consider and regret and at least he is at the point that he doesn't deny or get defensive that there was an A. That is something. So some progress yes. Does it mean things are all better? No. I maybe pushed a little hard today so now I need to shut up about it and work on creating a safe enviro for him as I said I wanted. Maybe he'll even read that book, who knows? I'll fill ya in on the MC session.
Apologies for the emotional pendulum over the last few days.

H and I had our MC session last week. Afterwards, I was extremely disappointed because I didn't think it went well at all. It was more of H making issue that this all started because I was upset when he was out all night and didn't call...that I reacted unreasonably and it escalated from there. Then complaints about me confronting and informing others of A, etc, etc.
However...it seems maybe it has had a good impact. The MC acknowledged it is difficult when one spouse gets very emotional (which I admit I do) however she said it was normal that I'd be very upset over the out all night business. She also said that of course, I have trust issues because he has committed a major breach of our marital vows. And she told him that anytime a relationship with someone is causing marital problems, it is a big problem.
Despite his going off and me getting defensive in the session, I think these comments must have been heard and hearing them from a 3rd party might have helped.
The session ended with us agreeing to spend each Sat together recreationally.
So yesterday we did that and it went really well. And H said that he thought we could work through this, that things got too escalated. H told me ILY, he held my hand, he kissed me on the lips, he gave me some good hugs. H said he might just quit the club he is in (that OW is also in). H said he wanted to get together on Thurs to discuss our R and I said ok. I think he wants to talk reconciliation and how to go about that. He is going to call me Wed. night.
I did spy this week. I went on the blog he and OW are on. Saw a significant difference on there. They are not chatting much and when they did once, it was not the same type of interaction as before. And OW has not been mentioning my H at all when she writes about her day, another change. Also, she did mention my H once in context of the club they are in and she called him by his first name, another change.
I also stopped by the house while he was at work to see if it looks like he is living there, as he's claiming (I left the house so he couldn't complain he had no where to live but with OW). It looks like he is staying there. Dishes in the sink, laundry being done, alarm clock set for work, grooming supplies there, movies out, etc.
Also, I had left the "Not just friends" book there and it had been moved. Maybe he's reading it.
I don't know but I am seeing differences in his demeanor. The alien seems to be slipping away.
So here is the sitch:
H still has most all his things at OW's house, packed in boxes in her garage.
H still communicates with her. Claims they will be friends.
H has claimed he will see her only in group activities.
H's interaction with her does appear to have changed.
H is indicating he wants to reconcile.
H is noting the changes I've made. H also has said that I didn't do anything for him to forgive. (not completely true, but he is acknowledging his huge part in this)
So...when we meet to discuss the R, I want to listen and validate. I need not talk of all the pain, etc. I've been in, need not defend myself, I have done all that.
I do want to start making solid plans for reconciliation if he suggests that. I need to do this without presenting any demands, as he is very sensitive to the idea of me controlling him.
What I want:
him to move everything out of her place
he and I to continue to spend quality time
he and I to start planning for a future together when our house sells...I want to move out of state, this may be difficult financially, but I think it is nec. so I can trust him and act like I do.
he and I to learn to meet eachother's emotional needs and better communication skills
I hope to start MC with the Harveys, but I have to be able to afford it first. I have some immed financial concerns I must first take care of.
Ultimately- I want any and all contact with OW to cease. This has created great issues for us in the past, as he and she share friends and the club.
I want him to be completely open and honest. NO secret emails, etc. I want his email password. Another area of conflict.
I want him to begin calling me more often and be accountable for where he is. We are not ready to live together again. I know that if the A has ended, by maintaining contact, the risk of it re-occuring is very high.
These are important steps, yet I know it will make him feel smothered and controlled. I don't think it would be productive to ask them just yet.
So how can I keep this positive momentum going without the A re-igniting? I can't. H has to do that.
I think I may ask him to come onto this site and start talking with others about our sitch. Maybe he can start initiating the changes he needs to make on his own, as I have with me.
So that's my current sitch.
Any thoughts, advice appreciated.
Happy 4th to all.

Stillhopeful -

Do not reconcile with him until there is no contact. See if he will write her a letter - mailed by you -that says something to the effect that he loves you and wants to work on his marriage, and for her not to contact him ever again for any reason.

If he refuses that request, he is not all that interested in working on the marriage.

Been down that road before. The trouble is...part of what H has been upset about in our M is that he thinks I dictate to him what to do, and with this A business, he has been rebelling against that and when I ask him to do something like that he wants to do the opposite just to prove he doesn't have to be told what to do. I think hearing that this method is something logical and reasonable, from someone besides me, would be more effective.
Also, he still has all his things in boxes in her garage. And he still communicates with her with his club and I do not think I can tell him to end that stuff without him thinking I am bossing him around. It is something he needs to decide to do on his own for our M. Me telling him it is in the best interest of our M makes it like he's sacraficing for me. He needs to be motivated on his own to do it. I think to dictate anything at this point would make us slide back. Yes, of course, the contact must end or the risk is too great. I know that. And he is turning around, but he still has his emotional rollar coasters about this... it's like he is testing the waters out. So if I go in and immediately demand anything, he will see that changes I have made are not real. He does keep mentioning moving out of state, dropping the club, moving his things from her place...but he wants to be the one making those choices, not me. I know it is ridiculous. Reconciliation is not possible with it like it is. I think I must be patient and show him my changes are real. And I want to somehow get him some info on A's without it coming from me. Hence, thinking of MC with the Harvey's- let them tell him like it is and not me, or letting him talk with some of you here.
My impatience and demanding made our situation worse. I have done that route multiple times. My ultimate goal is the recovery of our M so I don't want to keep doing what doesn't work. For my H in particular, he thinks I am controlling and tell him what to do. And he is flat out against any of that right now. So I am trying to tailor this stuff to my circumstance.
We are not at the point of reconciliation anyway. I will not reconcile until the no contact is concrete. And I think, yeah, we will have to move out of state. But I am not there yet. He has just barely wanted to start talking about the R- so I do not want to push hard. I want him to feel safe, not attacked, like we are a team. I think I will really focus on what I have changed and learned and am willing to do to meet his needs. I will put my needs on hold for the moment...not forever, for the moment. He is ready to dip his toes, maybe even a foot into the pool, he is not ready to dive in.

"Me telling him it is in the best interest of our M makes it like he's sacraficing for me. He needs to be motivated on his own to do it."

YIKES, this jumped out at me. Why don't you think you deserve more than he is willing to give. He may never be motivated on his own to do it. Why should he?

It's not that I am not worth it. It is that I am. He should decide on his own that I am worth it. If he doesn't end up motivated to do it on his own...then I move on. HE KNOWS what he has to do. Will he? I do not know. Because he is acting like a coward. It is easier to let things be as they are. I do have expectations. Of course I do.

I am feeling really down today. I know my last interaction with my H was good, but I know he spent the 4th with OW and I think he is spending time with her again. We are never going to move forward with him being involved with her, and over and over again her refuses to stop. I don't want to ask because it won't happen. How can things get better when he spends more time with her- practically every day, and hardly any with me. I know we could get through this if he would just stop this, but I don't see him doing it. I feel so sad.

Holy smokes!

I think my Plan A stuff is working. Part of plan A for me is to not let H feel criticized. This whole A thing got way escalated by my confrontational methods and so now I have been solely focusing on making love deposits. H doesn't want to feel criticized at all. H wants to feel good about himself. So I have been working on love deposits via rec. companionship, good conversation and appreciation. I have stumbled on occassion with bringing up the A, but I have been getting better about the timing of it and not letting it consume all our interaction- because that just withdraws from the love bank because he feels guilty, he feels defensive, he feels that it is not acknowledging the hurt he has experienced that enabled this A. So that is what I am working on first. Getting him to want to be in our R, to feel good about being with me and to feel good about himself when he is with me. Then, he will be more inclined to see the good in our M, to remember the good in our M, to be motivated to save it. That is the first step. Then, I will push the issue of zero contact. This is hard. It is not me wanting to be a doormat. It is me wanting to save my M more than me wanting to be right.
Anyway, I am seeing drastic steps in the right direction. H has been staying at the house more. H was there at the house last night I know, because our realtor couldn't get in today as he accidently locked the deadbolt when he went to work this a.m.
I was feeling down yesterday. H had texted me in the morning saying he'd call me last night. I left my cell when I went out. First off, I don't want to be available to him all the time. Let him try to get ahold of me. 2nd, I wasn't in the best of moods for dealing with it all. So H called last night, didn't leave a message, then he texted and said he'd call me today.
H called me on his lunch break. We chatted a bit, H asked what I was doing as there was background noise, and I said I was out with friends. Said I had to go. It was pleasant but short.
Then H called me right when he got home from work tonight, from the house. We had a very pleasant chat. About 45 mins. H and I talked about some ancient history stuff, which he is really into. I had learned some new stuff and told him about it. Love deposit.
H talked about working 2 jobs, which is great, because I was the one working 2 jobs for so long, and now he is finally doing it and he is the one trying to pay the bills. Yeah. Appreciation. Love deposit.
H said he was tired. Was going to order a pizza and go to bed. So no visiting OW tonight. Yay!
H said he would call me on his lunch break tomorrow and he wants to get together and have some fun tomorrow after work. Yay!
H talked in we terms alot, including our future.
H told me that when he was at his catering job, he did a fruit sculpture, and that I was his inspiration! Wow.
So yesterday, he texted me twice and called. Today he called twice. He wants to call me and see me tomorrow.
I am feeling really good that he is obviously thinking of me more now. And he is seeing the progress I have made in my personal growth and the paying attn. to his emotional needs is having an effect. So my plan A is going pretty well. I am going to try to keep it up for as long as I can without going insane. And hopefully he will become really motivated to save our M. Then I will have my demands about the contact. Then I will start asking to have some of MY emotional needs met.
Whew. What a rollar coaster this is. I will try to have endurance. I will try to keep on doing what I am. And I will try not to have expectations yet as I don't want to be let down. Basically, I am letting the ball be in his court. And I am going to try to keep my own life and be happy regardless.
Of course, I hope the M will be saved. I have to be detached enough to survive if it doesn't work out. And hopefully, H will see his mistakes and want to be in this M and will do what it takes for that to happen. He knows what it is going to take. So let him do it and let him know he chose to do it because he wanted to save the M. That is kinda where my thoughts on this are right now. Hope you all are doing well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The emotional rollar coaster continues. After such a great day on Thurs, read on the blog Friday that H was going camping with OW for the weekend. Of course, I spent alot of time crying over the weekend. H texted me first thing this morning "good morning". I didn't reply. If he calls me today or texts, I am not going to answer. He loves this having his cake and eating it too. I think that this week I really need to focus on taking care of me and trying to have a positive mental attitude for my own health and peace. It is really really hard to endure this. I hope it is worth it in the end. I feel resentment building up. Resentment isn't helpful to anyone, least of all to myself, so taking the week to just try to relax, smile and have my own life. I don't need that jerk to validate my worth. And I don't need to participate with him in the games, and I don't even want to bother calling him on it, it is a waste of time. He wants to act like a coward and a scuzball, well, then he gets to live with who he is, not me.
I love myself and I'm not participating.