LL,

if i interpret your words correctly, not being the right person is searching for a new spouse, is that correct?

that was my prior point about not believing you. . . you are NOT going out to learn about dating, or learn about yourself, you are going out to find the right guy. . . . you are spouse hunting. . .

you shouldn't be spouse hunting, you should be going out to have fun, and to LEARN about what kind of men you would like. . and you won't know that unless you have enough experience with men to figure it out. . otherwise, you will make the same mistakes all over again.

I will repeat my statement from earlier, go out to have fun, don't go out spouse hunting. . . best to ask questions of the guys sometimes to just see what they answer. . . and with full disclosure from you that you are NOT looking for a serious relationship. . .

why does religion matter if you are going out to learn about dating and about men??

wiftty

wiftty,


Okay, now that I know the statement that bothered you, let me see if I can clarify, because I truly do have a reason for this and I think it's a good one.

I'm not on a mission to find a spouse right now. I just want to get to know people. But I met and fell for (and married) someone who was not right for me once before. What if I end up really liking one of the guys I meet (I am not a person to just shut off my emotions)? Even if I didn't start out spouse-hunting, if something eventually transpired in that direction, as long as we had similar backgrounds and beliefs, that'd be okay.

But if I am going out with guys who don't share my beliefs on important issues, and I see them enough times that I maybe start to fall for one, then someone is going to get seriously hurt (most likely me, because I'd either have to let go then--since they're not the right person, or give in like I did before and then be unhappy down the road when the beliefs and differences really got in the way).

That may sound like rambling to most people, but it makes a whole lot of sense to me. If I start out by seeing people that are possibilities, it's fine if I just see them as friends forever, but it would also be fine if one ended up becoming more.

Make sense?

LL

Oh, by the way, I had date #2 with guy #2 tonight. He's the one who doesn't share my beliefs (nor do I share his desire for competitive sports and working out). It actually started out a bit awkward, but smoothed out fine as we got about halfway through dinner (I'm not good with awkward silence). We did dinner, then went and walked probably a mile around the lake down by him. I've never walked down there at night--it's quite nice--they have bike trails and a very pretty lighted walk bridge. From there we did cappucino's at DQ and since he lives like a block from DQ, he asked if I'd like to see where he lives.

I know, DUMB! But again, this is the guy I walked with on the first date, and he didn't kill me then, so I doubted I was going to be raped or anything at his house. Besides he does have roommates who could have shown up at any time.

We watched a movie on his big screen (my daughter was actually upset because I told her we didn't set together, nor did I give him any kind of a good night kiss). She says I don't know how to date. I'm thinking I did just fine.

However, movie note: We saw The Notebook. If anyone hasn't seen it yet, it is a really good movie! Tearjerker though--I ended up getting weepy at the end. Sort of embarassing given that I don't know him very well. But I'm a woman. That's just how I am.

Anyway, he was talking throughout the evening about all these things he's going to get me to do, so apparently there may be another date. He WILL be one who will need to be set straight very soon about where we aren't headed.

LL

This is a real interesting thread! [color:"blue"] LL [/color] , I think I'm going to have to have a scoreboard (pardon the pun) to keep track of the guys and their date sequences. A couple of points I noticed:

I agree - what you know about ANY of these guys is what they've told you. Too bad the online service doesn't provide references for you to check out their stories.

And a little validation for you -
I'm glad you clarified your stance for [color:"blue"]WIFTTY [/color] . I think what you said makes perfect sense.

I think your "let down" email for guy #3 (or was it #4) was worded VERY graciously.

Your daughter's life is not yours - so don't let her tell you how to act on a date, LOL. So when you get that first kiss, will you let us all know? Especially since some of us are living vicariously through you at this time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

you are worried about hurting someone, but only because you can't tell them ahead of time, that you are not currently looking for a spouse. . . you are worried about making a mistake, but that is part of life, and part of learning about men. If you are afraid of making amistake or hurting someone, best you stay at home after work.

If you do some studying, reading, of personality styles, MBTI, and then read up on disorders, and start to look for these clues, you will then begin to indentify healthy males from dysfunctional males, and that is the first half of the sorting process. . . If you can't identify a dysfunctional male, then you won't even begin to make a good decision. . . .

so instead of labelling a guy right or wrong, which is a black and white label, why don't you discuss his traits or beliefs here, and see if we agree if they are dysfunctional. . . start to build a knowledge base about experience in identifying healthy men.

BTW, my GF is what i call, a religious person. . . and she went looking for a similarly religious spouse, found one, and then married him. . . OK, he turned out to be religious in belief, but not in actions. . . i am an aetheist, and my GF never believed or anticipated that an aetheist could actually be nice, supportive, etc, and healthy. . . because I support her choice of religion, and don't push mine on her. . . i can support her without changing my beliefs. . .

so i think that you need to consider more possibilities than the people that sit in the same white building every sunday. . .

wiftty

Landica,



Wow, this is sort of a scary opportunity for me. I know MB isn't a "Christian" message board, per se, so I usually don't get into beliefs unless they directly impact something I'm asking about.

But here's my take on things: First, I was raised Protestant, so my only experience with Catholicism is from some of my relatives and friends. (So any of you Catholics can feel free to chime right in.)

Both Catholics and Protestants believe in the holy trinity: God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. We both belief that our spirit lives on after physical death, either in an eternal heaven and an eternal hell. We also believe that the only way to heaven is thru faith in Jesus (as opposed to believing all religions lead there), and that we are saved from our sins and can spend eternity in heaven because of Jesus sacrificing himself on the cross for us, and because he did not remain dead but was raised three days later.

Okay, but from there is where the differences lie: Protestants are very faith-based. It's not about what WE do but about what God did for us, through Jesus. We go to church, but we don't hold the church and it's role as quite the same as Catholics who have their sacrements that they have to do, the confessions they do with their priests (Protestents confess directly to God and ask for forgiveness, where Catholics use a priest as an intercessor.) There is much ritual in a Catholic church, they can't marry non-catholics and continue as members of the church, etc.

I know that's vague, but it's the best I can do. I'm just saying, my faith and what I believe and how I practice it is probably the #1 thing of importance when it comes to who I might eventually seriously consider for a future partner. In my opinion, if both people are Christian and they are in agreement about their faith and how it is practiced, most of the rest of the stuff will fall into place.

But that's the deal--I have to be in agreement about how it's practiced. I will not convert to Catholicism. I don't expect someone else to convert to Protestantism (is that a word?). I won't go to one church and have them going to another. I need someone who I can bounce things off of and who can support me when I'm weak and vice versa. We need to have the same beliefs. That's why I won't compromise on that.

There are people who don't place beliefs/faith as high as I do. I'm not going to judge them. I'm only going to say I can see how they might be able to mix religions and get away with it. (By the way, being "religious" and being a Christian are two different things. You can be very "religious" and have no real faith. It's all just a show.)

Wiftty,

You and I won't see eye to eye on the importance of a mutual faith if you're an athiest. But again, "religious" isn't the same as having faith. And yes, you are totally correct, that actions are the most important predictor of things, not the words that come out of a person's mouth.

LL

One more thing, guy #1 actually did call back: Called my cell phone last night while I was gone and it was home on my desk. Didn't say much in his message except that he'd talk to me later.

He emailed today, a response to my email I sent him shortly after I got back from our Thursday outing.

This is a paragraph from his email:



He said at the end of the email that he'd try and call me again this evening.

Not to read too much into that, but perhaps I should be a little more confident about people not totally writing me off as soon as we have the sex talk.

LL

Yay! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm glad you heard from him.

I really figured he was OK. Of course all I had to go on was your description of the date and the "talk". Yes, you should be more confident, and be careful not to overreact or obsess. YOu really sound a lot like me. I tend to assume WAY too much about what the other person *must* be thinking, and I have to reign myself in and RELAX!!!!, and be PATIENT!!!! and wait for the other person to respond in their own time. I also have to remind myself to ask them what they are thinking, WITHOUT alluding to, or assuming it's one thing or another. I think guys, especially, go CRAZY when we try to predict their thoughts, and you can push them away if you assume or obsess too much over stuff.

Thanks for sharing all of this with us. I know you're asking us for feedback, AND getting your nervous thoughts off your mind by talking here, but I'm enjoying and learning by reading your journey.

Faith1

LL,

a couple of points, first,


that's pretty simplistic, especially given that the Harley's entire emotional needs work and analysis does not include religious agreement. kind of makes you wonder about how religion plays into your marriage versus emotional needs.

second,


so you really didn't have a choice, Protestant was just the luck of who you were born to. Kind of makes one wonder why people often times never really make a choice of religion, but de facto accept what they had no choice about. . .

doesn't that ever make you wonder why?

wiftty

Faith,

Yeah, that "relax and be patient" part...I have a tough time with that in my life in general. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

It's kind of funny, though. Guy #1 left that message last night. Then he actually left a fairly long email response later today as well. I hadn't responded to it yet just because I'd been busy, and was on the phone with my sis tonight and he tried to call me again on my cell. His message said he was concerned because he hadn't been able to get me last night nor had I responded to his email today, so he hoped I was just traveling or something and that everything was okay. So here I was thinking he was ignoring me, and he was thinking the same thing on the other end. Life is just strange sometimes...

Wiftty,



From what I know about the Harleys, while they may have their beliefs, they don't profess to be Christian counselors. They help people of all faiths. However, in my case, I guess you could say a big emotional need of mine is to be able to share my life with a person who shares my beliefs. Bad analogy, but it'd sort of be like an avid sports fan not wanting to be with someone who hated sports. (Except to me, my faith is a lot more important than sports, because it affects my eternity).

Emotional needs are very important. But in my opinion, commitment is even more important. If someone gets married and then says, "hey, she's not meeting MY needs, so I'm not going to stay married anymore", is that right? Not in my eyes. I agree that to have a good marriage, needs must be met. But marriages will have ups downs and people will get hurt or feel neglected from time to time. It's commitment I want even more than making sure all our various needs match, and if I find a person who truly shares my faith, I have a better chance that they'll also share my feelings on commitment (because it's a part of what Christians believe). Now granted, Mr. twice-married is a little scary when it comes to the commitment thing. I need to find out a LOT more about that!


My simplest answer...no, it doesn't.

I was raised in a Church of Christ. I chose to leave that as a teen, and frankly just ran wild and didn't care about anything in my late teens and very early 20's until I became a Christian. I am now a member of a Baptist church (they are quite a bit different). I may even leave eventually and go to one of the non-denominational churches because they're a bit larger. But the basic core beliefs I will not abandon.

I have been exposed to other religions (granted, not much exposure) and have no desire to pursue them. But I have an uncle who went from Protestant to Catholic, a son who was raised Protestant who is a confessed agnostic (that pains me to no end), and I worked with a woman who converted to Buddism.

I guess if anything, I just consider myself blessed that I did happen to be born into a family who raised me in this particular faith.

But then again, I also feel very blessed that I was born in the US and not in the middle of sub-saharan Africa, too. I don't know why things work the way they do. I just don't spend my time trying to figure all of them out.

Heck, I'm too busy just trying to figure out this dating thing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

LL

LL...wow...your thread has gotten longer...i am so happy to hear everything is well with you.

Yes...you and me are the same...

I am also looking for the same values...commitment values and religious values.

You should also look into his family...how he treats his parents, siblings etc...that also plays a big deal...

I still dont like guy#1 because he had been married twice...it shows he has not enough religious values by having two divorce...u go look some more before that heart of yours falls for the guy ok...

Becareful of the euprohia of falling "IN LOVE"...it will make you very confuse. Remember we ex BS are very vunerable...we have been starving for attention, love and care...careful not to fall for the 1st man that gives you that...

Best of all...dont go out often with the same guy...especially when he does not have the values you are looking for...because if you keep going out with him...you will like him more and more...then you will forget what you initially planned to do...take care LL

[color:"blue"]I'm not saying that LL should trust some guy that has been divorced twice. I am stepping in to say that bad things happen to good people.

My FOO was horrible and left me unable to spot red flags of abuse or narcissism or mental illness anything for that matter because my entire childhood taught me to tolerate the intolerable. I married three times - and kept wondering why each time the person I thought I married turned into someone that would then start treating me badly.

Please don't condemn someone for past mistakes.

I would advise that care be taken, because FOO issues need counseling and awareness; although I was mainly the victim in the past, I am well aware that abuse is a two sided coin and I can very easily turn into the abuser.

I feel much better now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

V.[/color]

I bought a bag of Dove dark chocolates to keep in my office. I opened the first one today, and inside the wrapper there are messages. Today's message:

"Don't think about it so much."

Hmmmm.....

More dating questions: I'm starting to sort of pysche myself out because both guys I've seen twice have said they want to see me again, though no dates are set yet. One has suggested doing lunch or maybe something one evening this week. My guess is that the other will be crunching on his grad paper that he's been avoiding for the past week because its due Friday, but then I'll probably hear from him regarding an outing on Friday or Saturday night.

And then there's that guy from 150 miles north of me. I really have a distance issue--I have no intentions of moving. And I've not met him yet, or even spoken to him over the phone, though we finally did exchange cell #'s and may talk this week. We've exchanged many bytes of email, though. He and I seem to have a LOT in common right down to the length of time we were married, the month our divorces were final, and that we both are divorced because our spouse of nearly 20 years left us for someone else. I feel I shouldn't write him off just yet. I'd like to meet him in person.

Okay, all well and good except for a couple things...

First, how do I keep myself for getting emotionally attached? I set out with great goals, but I'm afraid they're not going to hold. Do I have to stop dating again? That's the only way I know of for sure to not get attached to anyone...just don't see anyone. But I'm not liking that idea so well.

The other question (and this is admittedlly dumb, but I really don't know how things work): If you get a hug at the end of a date, is that bad, if you're seeing more than just that person? (This has been the case with both of my 2nd dates...it was very enjoyable but brought back feelings of being physically close and how I enjoy it, and that's bad, because I realize how much I miss being held and stuff, and I'm wondering if that's something that shouldn't be happening unless two people are exclusive.)

And what if they try a kiss on the next date? Do I decline? Avoid? Change the subject? Go along with it? Is that leading someone one? (I'm all for waiting on sex until marriage, but admit I may not be the in "nothing but holding hands" group either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

I'm making this way too complex, I know, but I really am inexperienced at it. And when I was a teenager dating, I frequently did nothing BUT kiss someone, for hours, until my lips were chapped and painful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> That's not what I'm looking for now either...

LL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Just kiddin... sorta... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> ...I'll be back later.

harlequin,

as that is how i know you. . .


very profound, and very wise. . .

I agree with your philosophy, and that's why i educated myself on spotting red flags. . . it only takes me about 5 minutes before I can spot red flags, and then sometimes, i even tell my family members, "no need for guilt, or grandiose thinking. . . . its just regular life"

I hope that you continue the counseling because one you can see the dysfunctionality, although its extra work to overcome the tendencies, its well worth the effort,

wiftty

Perplexing thought for tonight:

Guy #1 called me last night and we talked 40 minutes or so (after I was concerned that he'd flown the coop after our sex talk last week).

So tonight, my phone rings...it's him again, just wondering what was up and how I was doing.

I found myself going from thinking "why isn't he calling at all?" to thinking, "Why is he calling me two nights in a row? He barely knows me.".

There is apparently no pleasing me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

If you decide you dont want any commitment with guy#1...you better make it very clear with him.

Have you read Mars and Venus on a date by John Gray...after reading that book then i understood why i was having the uncertainity in me...Its a very good book...it will explain why you have those questions about why he calls etc etc...

Take care LL

Hi Zizzy,

No,I haven't read that one, though I own the original Mars/Venus book and thought it was right on when it came to most things (could never get "mars" to read it, though).

Might have to add that one to my book list. Of course, I'm still trying to get the two books on boundaries read that I bought back when my daughter was having such issues months ago.

I had a small dating discussion with my son last night, to get a guy's point of view (though I don't consider him the average guy...first, if I were a girl his age I'd never date him because he'd drive me nuts with his selfishness, and second, he commits too fast to one person). But his point was, he's not comfortable dating more than one person at a time. He dates one, gets serious fast, stays with them until things don't work anymore. He's 19 and is on serious GF #3--he started this at 13 (yes, we won't even go there--I was caught off guard because his first girlfriend was 17 and I thought they were just good friend, as they'd grown up together at church). He's dated maybe 2-3 other girls, mostly one time only.

So, took his advice with a grain of salt, but it does remind me again that guys, I think, tend to want to get serious in a relationship quicker than women do. I'll have to think of a way to clarify to him, because in all honesty, I do enjoy his company. I'm still VERY leary of the 2x married and the restraining order and all. More questions to be asked.

LL

Reading is very good. Mars and Venus Starting Over is also a good one. Reading a book is good material, and helps you follow through consistent, solid ideas throughout a whole book, while helping YOU develop YOUR thoughts, ideas, opinions, confidence and belief-system within yourself. Coming here has its benefits, but we are giving you all types of advice.... and depending on your mood <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, is how you take the advice, and how you make your decisions.

Anyway... I have to throw this out there cuz it's what's on my mind about your latest updates. I have to run, and I'll be back later.

What, exactly, are you being SO cautious about? Well, you might not want to get hurt. You might not want to hurt others, or any kids involved. Is that all? Just don't rush into marriage, k? Otherwise, relax a bit. You are on a journey, learning and growing. Learning about yourself and others, and if you get involved with someone cuz you like them, is that so bad? If Guy #1 likes you, and ya'll like talking to each other, keep the brakes on a lil bit, but why not go with it? You seem like a smart lady, you're not gonna run off into the sunset with him next week. But don't be afraid to explore it.

Yes, you might make a mistake or two. I did, and will make more. I got hurt. I lived, I learned. But loving involves risking... a little bit.... right?

Anyway, oh... and... the dilemma between the 2 guys (and the 1 that's 150 miles away)... keep the brakes on for now with them. I bet things will become clearer over the next week or two for you as to who you like the best, or which one of THEM is more serious about "courting" you. Then you will politely let the other 2 down. "there's someone I'd like to pursue a more serious relationship with... " They're big boys. They can handle it. And if they really like you, they might even be around if this relationship fails (if they haven't found someone else).

GOtta run... but.... what are you afraid of?

oh yeah.... constant prayer... He will lead you through every step.... k?

hugs,
Faith1

Newest twist: Really has nothing to do with any of the guys but could affect all of them.

My mom is in the hospital. She's 72 but has generally been healthy, except for the normal age-related things like high-blood pressure and diabetes she controls well with diet. We've (sis & I) never thought about what might happen if she has to go to the hospital and there is no one to take care of Dad (he has early Alzheimers--lives at home and can function okay except is very easily confused on days of the week, time of day, what pills to take, and where Mom is if she's not there). They live in an area with very limited home care, and they're fairly poor, so can't afford anything unless they qualify for Medicaid anyway.

I'm not very close emotionally to my mom--that was my sis's job. I was daddy's girl. Anyway, Mom has been having increasing abdominal pain since last week and is now in substantial pain, throwing up when she tries to eat, and basically miserable. She'd been to the Dr. twice. My sis took her again this morning and they admitted her.

They think she has a bowel obstruction. Okay, maybe it's just because she doesn't eat enough fiber and things got the best of her before she realized. That's what I'm hoping. Or, since she never goes to the doctor and has had no tests at all for cancer for years and years, it could be polyps or even colon cancer causing a blockage. I'm praying it's not.

Right now, I've just got tentative plans to go down tomorrow night (they live 80 miles away) and check on Dad and see her briefly. She's having a lower endoscopy tomorrow which will hopefully provide some answers. She has an upper scheduled for Thursday if they don't find the cause tomorrow. They've pretty much ruled out gallbladder, and she had a hysterectomy a number of years ago so that's all ruled out, too.

So, depending on the outcome, there is a possibility I may be hanging up the dating thing for a while because family comes first. The bad thing is if something does end up being seriously wrong, that's the time I'd most be wishing I had someone to lean on. Hoping for the best.

LL