I know what you mean, but you have your friends/supporters here at MB! I'll be praying for your family; keep us updated. The guys (how many are there now?) will understand if you put things "on hold" until your parents' situation settles down.

Oh dear! I'll be praying for your family. Keep us posted!

hugs,
Faith1

Uh oh. Bad LL. Trying so hard not to feel any emotions for any of her guys. Lost the battle tonight to Guy #1 with the eyes (though I've decided the smile outshines the eyes).

Guy #2--I need to just tell him I'm seeing someone. I haven't yet, though I haven't seen him in a week.

Guy #?--the one from northern Iowa. I have committed to seeing him for the first time tomorrow afternoon. We do seem to have SO much in common.

But..went on date #3 with guy #1 tonight. Did dinner. Did a home-improvement store (he had to pick up some cabinet plans). Did an outdoor patio bar and a couple margueritas. And then moved on to a club where we could have been everyones' parents--where we sat and basically just took in the show.

And then we drove back to my house.

The combination of his good looks, a couple drinks, and just a very good evening--I hope it's okay to kiss someone on the 3rd date because it definitey happened.

Will he see me again? Who knows. I'm feeling a little nervous about things moving fast, and told him so. But of course, after that conversation I got another good-night kiss.

Its all soooo confusing. I have GOT to ask about his marriages. Tonight I didn't.

What am I doing????? I don't want to be sucked into the WS fog! I don't want to act that stupid. But it has really felt good having someone court me for the last week or so (he's been calling daily).

LL

LL, why don't you ask Guy #1 not to call you so often? Besides slowing things down, this will also show how he handles your establishing boundaries.

Personally, I don't think a whirlwind romance is ever a good idea. It gives one's feelings too much opportunity to overshadow and overrule everything else.

And I'll admit that I'm a bit suspicious of this man anyhow. I know you took advantage of his question about your younger and wilder days as an opportunity to address the sex issue, and it seems that his reaction could be interpreted as supportive, but...honestly, I have to wonder why he brought up the subject in the way that he did. To me it seems quite a peculiar choice of topics for a second date, and I can't help suspecting that he may have been looking for a different answer, and he is now trying to find out whether your actions will conform to your stated intentions.

Maybe I'm just paranoid. But I don't like the way this is going.

GnomeDePlume

"And I'll admit that I'm a bit suspicious of this man anyhow. I know you took advantage of his question about your younger and wilder days as an opportunity to address the sex issue, and it seems that his reaction could be interpreted as supportive, but...honestly, I have to wonder why he brought up the subject in the way that he did. To me it seems quite a peculiar choice of topics for a second date, and I can't help suspecting that he may have been looking for a different answer, and he is now trying to find out whether your actions will conform to your stated intentions."


I would have to agree with you here. I guess the restraining order against him plays a part in that feeling.

Why not check your local public records and find out WHY he has a restraining order in place?

GNP,


I have little doubt that he was hoping for a different answer (though I do think he understands my answer from a biblical perspective--something that most don't). But I'm still pretty confident that my actions will conform to my stated intentions. During our generally 4-6 hour long dates, we spend a fair amount of time talking about our beliefs, our struggles, our growth, etc., and I've mentioned more than once that as a Christian I don't get to pick and choose which things I will follow and which I won't.

TR,


As for the restraining order, it's not in force anymore. It was something that went on during their divorce, or right before. He actually lives in a small town and doesn't live but a few blocks from his ex, because this way he has easier access to his 6-yr-old daughter.

Again, I have LOTS of questions to ask should this continue (and unfortunately, I also have some closet skeletons of my own that will have to come out eventually...not ready for that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />).

I did mention last night before he left that I was concerned that this was not in line with my "taking things slow" and just sort of explained that I'm very leary of getting into another relationship given what I came out of.

But I will give him this...he is far more polite than my ex ever was. He opens car doors, he walks me to my door, and he's offered several times now to either look at my lawn mower for me or bring one up in his truck so that I can mow my lawn (I have declined...I'm stubborn and want to figure it out myself, and I don't want to "owe" anyone for anything.)

I think part of the issue last night was that it was an absolutely beautiful night (people in CA get these all the time...we Iowan's don't)--warm, a slight breeze, clear sky. Pair that with some live music, a few drinks on a patio bar, and at least one person who finds the other very attractive and enjoyable to be with, and well....

Okay, so not sure when I'll see him again. We will get a forced break anyway, because he's going to a wedding or something next Saturday, and then he's taking his kids to the Ozarks for most or all of the following week.

I'll be careful. I admit, I'm nervous. Not because of the restraining order, but more because I'm not sure of his intentions.

LL

First off LL, trying to NOT feel emotions is an exercise in futility. The goal should be (for all of us who have been through the wringer) is have been firmly convinced we need to LISTEN to our brains much more than use to, in making relationship decisions. It makes little sense (beyond an initial couple of dates, cause we should date anyone we have opportunity for...a "decision"), to continue to date someone we have no "feelings" for. Chemistry is what tells us our "feeling" assessment of someone says there is potential. The problem is feelings are so powerful, and our relationship training so inadequate, we often make marital decisions almost totally by feelings...is so stupid. But now you are smarter LL, you know that feelings alone usually get us into trouble of one kind or another.

So, let's look at this for a moment, you have feelings for the guy, great, that means you want to proceed...sooooo, put that aside and put on your "decsion" hat, and look at two things....AFTER accurately analyzing the current situation.

1. Should you proceed (does he pass the smell test).

2. How to proceed.

You have all the facts, we just have your reports, so can only go off of that. The analysis seems to indicate a few things. One, the guy seems able to conduct himself in appropriate manner. He is not selfish, disrespectful, can communicate, can organize, and you seem to feel (more or less) emotionally safe around him, so hopefully has no major personality disorders (although waaaayyyy to early to be sure of that at all). He has (sorta by default) agreed to a major boundary issue, no pre-marital sex (but you never really said what his answer to that is, only yours). He also seems overly enthusiastic (not necessarily a bad thing, depends) by contacting you so regularly when you have barely just met. Guess that is most of the facts, now let's see what your options are.

1. Should you proceed. Well, that in part is about you. You like the guy, know you have a strong emotional reaction to him, so are gonna be straining your boundaries, may cut down on your other dating options (if you let it, and sounds like you might). It would be a serious mistake to become exclusive (whether by agreement, or default) this early. You need to know a lot more about him. But also you need to learn a lot more about you, and you can't do that without limiting your time with him, and having some other experiences. So if you cannot control yourself, then maybe you should stop dating him... that would be a "decision", cause you are not ready to be in-love again yet.

As for proceeding from the other viewpoint, a dispassionate assessment of the guy, well, you seem to have done that, and no reason to quit yet in that regard..BUT his reaction to you setting some time boundaries may be illuminateing. Which brings me to #2

2. How to proceed. Hmmm, lots of options here, but the basic decsion is what boundaries do you want to put in place, and how to do so. This is actually very good (and the whole reason for dating) cause now you get to make healthy decisions, and try them out in a safe enviroment. I agree with TR and gnome, this is speeding up to dangerous and unacceptable levels, so you need to put on the brakes. That isn't bad, just the nature of initial pursuit, those brain chemicals are really really strong. But a quick analysis should reveal there is no rush, plenty of fish in the sea (heck you caught 3-4 without breaking a sweat). Also one should discern relationships are never "equal", there will always be a difference in um.. "enthusiasm", that is why we must be careful not to let our emotions tell us to pursue or leave a relationship, it should be a conscious, carefully thought out assemsment. This means there will always be someone putting on the brakes... cause relationships must proceed at the speed of the slowest person, that is some kind of law...elsewise they get left behind, or get hurt cause they stumble at the higher speed. But, the slower one has an obligation to communicate their difficulty before it becomes a bigger problem.

In your case, I concur, he is coming on too strong, and too often. But that is in part cause you are letting him, it is a dance, and you are agreeing. What needs to happen now, is some sort of conversation..

#1, I am finding myself liking this, and want to continue dating (you made the first cut..said with a smile), but I am not ready for an exclusive relationship, and am uncomfortable about the amount of time and contact we seem to be developing, is exclusive by default. So here is what I would like to do for a little while, (and you must figure this out LL).. date one time every other week, maybe an extra time for some special event, call each other maybe twice a week, and can email little snippets of whatever when the mood hits, but constantly. Notice you are not asking him if this is ok, you are telling him your boundaries, he can accept or leave, his choice... How he reacts to this will be very very telling.

If he is a worthy male, he will appreciate your openness and honesty, recognize the wisdom of the boundaries (he needs them too), and if smitten with you will not bother him at all, he will continue to pursue you. However if he reacts poorly to this, or quickly loses interest, you have avoided wasting time with someone who has serious personality disorder issues..and that would be a very good thing.... nothing to lose LL, cause your position would be the healthy one. In the meantime you would continue to pursue your other options, including dating various people...after a time of this, you will discern maybe you want to go further with one (including #1), and can decide for yourself to reduce your activities...if that works, then can enter exclusivity talks with your choice, and see how the next level works.

Patience is a virtue LL, and applies to dating relationships as well as many other parts of life..time to turn down the temperature, not jump in the cauldron. You have many things you need to know, and time to know them. Use a time of less intensity with #1 to meet his friends, his workplace, his hobbies, his church... (not everything needs to be a "date" necessarily, so could have a little more contact to learn something). He should be doing the same for you, taking an interest in your world. You could exchange favors (helping each other with stuff), do some volunteer work together, have a regular exercise contact (jog, gym, etc.), the point is to not let this be a whirlwind romance scenario. This doesn't go on forever, but for a few months makes sense, and one can reevaluate as time goes on.

You also have some serious discernment to figure out. It is great to like someone, and fit them well, but one must also figure out what doesn't work, and can you accept it (in light of everything that does work, will never be perfect fit). Things like will POJA work, how is anger/frustration handled, what are his (and yours) conflict resolution skills, can he make deep the committments necessary for oneflesh, not many can. How does he treat his parents, and other family members, how does he parent. You need to find out in great detail why his marriages failed (and why he entered them in the first place). Likewise you will be needing to reveal and communicate who LL is, and he should be clearly looking hard at you too, not just trying to capture you. If he is not, that is not a good thing.

One last thing, re the sex talk, I commented some on this, but have a little more. IMO this is an initial deal-breaker, so one should aggressively seek a frank discussion very quickly, certainly before one moves past the initial couple dates. The reason being a mismatch here will quickly introduce unhealthy tension to the developing relationship which will eliminate (for the most part) the dating benefits (getting to know yourself, and someone else, having fun while doing so).

It is unclear from your post whether you really had the discussion completely. What is his policy about pre-marital sex... is he on the same page as you, or is he just going along (that is an entirely different, and undesireable, kind of agreement). There should also be an understanding by you (for your own benefit), and those who agree, as to why this boundary, that it is a Scriptural admonition is not sufficient, there are sound reasons for this boundary regardless of whether one is a Christian or an atheist. When you own the reasons, you are much better equipped to resist temptation. And when two are in agreement and understanding you greatly increase the likelihood of successfully making it to marriage without a wrong turn along the way. Hopefully both don't get "weak" at the same time, so to speak, and by relying on each other, huge trust is created, and one can be more vulnerable as well, so intimacy is increased...anyways, back to you.

If you really did not have a complete conversation, I would suggest you do so...this is not really a sex discussion so much as a moral and boundary discussion, sex is just the topic, one should be able to have a clinical discussion. Also IMO one should not be discussing sexuality per se. This is not about who does what to who, or wants done, that is a completely inappropriate discussion to have initially when dating. One should have such a frank discussion before marriage, but it is the last thing to be covered before a betrothal, it is part of pre-marital counselling and talking about how your lives will merge, financially, family wise, where to live, how sex will be, etc. The first part of dating is about discerning character, temperament, likes/dislikes etc. It should be pretty much a given, healthy people have an enthusiastic and willing attitude about sexuality, if one does not, that will probably show up in other ways. It would be nice to know up front if someone is sexually dysfunctional, a prude, selfish etc. but you really cannot till much later...even if they talk about it, really doesn't tell you much...most of sexual compatibility is about the "realtionship", healthy people who enter healthy relationships, usually have a good sex life...and can get past any hang-ups, cause they trust each other, and are thereby motivated to give and be enthusiastic.

Other than clarifying any sexual boundary issues, I think fairly early on, maybe by "scedueling" such talks, you both should be willing to have a deep talk about past relationships, how and why they failed, lessons learned, behavior changed, etc. This will probably take a number of times, and should be a place both willingly go to...if someone is reticent, or unwilling to be forthright...is a bad bad sign. The goal here is to determine whether someone is emotionally available to enter a new relationship (many are not), as well as the actual facts, which reveal the nature of a prospects character/temperament. Many people can be nice, attractive, fun, even reasonably good friend, but be a very poor marital partner...is an entirely different animal. So if the long term goal of dating is to mate, one needs to find out things as part of the dating process.

So LL, you have acquired a lot of information about you, and dating lately..both experience and advice....now apply it...and let the chips fall where they will.

re the kissing, well depends on how passionate the kissing (not sure I want you to share that anyways...to much info...laugh). But will say this. IMO the development of physical connections should proceed along with emotional, psychological, intellectual, recreational, etc. connections. So

touching, handholding, sitting close, hug/embracing, sitting in lap, etc. and um.."mild" kissing should be acceptable fairly quickly, we learn things from these contacts as well, things we need to know. Mostly I think is about time, a couple weeks and 3 dates seems a bit quick for kissing much, but not unreasonable though, if both parties are ok with it, then that is as good a measure as anything for some exploratory lip contact...Now a passionate makeout session would be very premature IMO until one is pretty much exclusive. The only caveat re kissing is that if one has been emotionally (as well as touch) deprived for a long time (or has poor impulse contol over sexual behaviour), and you start kissing on someone you feel safe with, and attracted too...well, you are gonna get your motor running, so be darn sure you don't accidently slip into high gear. But hey, kissing is fun, and if you aren't kissing (in some fashion) romantic prospects then what are they? Your brother?

Let me start this with a little quote posted not quite three weeks ago by someone I know very well. ME!


This was about person #1--the eye guy, though I've decided it's actually his mouth and his smile that I'm far more attracted to.

And of course, what I feared is what is happening. Of the 4 guys I've met now (and yes, met #4 today--the guy from northern Iowa--I'll post a separate update), Guy #1 is the one who I really can't get my mind off.

So, my next statement is this (sorry...I'm no longer the poster child of positive dating):

"Dating sucks!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I like feeling no emotion better than I like feeling it for someone who is not right...someone who I need to break things off with now because it will only be harder the longer I go.

It's more than the restraining order, or his moving quickly.

And by the way, I did pull up some very basic on-line records because I know his name and birthday. First, the boy has a need for speed apparently--but then so do I and my ticket record isn't clean either. Other than that, there are three domestic things listed. It's hard to tell from the records what they are. Two are with his most recent ex-wife. Both are from within a 3 month time period and both look like they happened a good year before his DV was final (which might make sense, because he tried for over a year with counseling and such before they were DV). Anyway, one of the two domestic issues with her was closed, the other was dismissed. My guess is that she filed orders on him 2 times, but dropped them the second time.

The other thing that popped up was also a domestic thing but it said something about "consent decree" and it was with his first ex-wife and only happened a couple years ago. I know they had some issues because he wanted to spend more time with his son and she was fighting him on it--my guess is that it relates to that. It's sort of hard to follow the on-line records because they don't say much, but things like issues with the DV decree can show up this way because they still required court intervention.

Okay, so that's that. But it doesn't matter anyway.

I had a talk with my pastor at church today. I didn't even share that this guy has been married twice. I just shared that he was divorced and not because of infidelity or abandonment by a non-believing spouse (the two reasons I believe the Bible lists for valid DV). And the pastor said it was his feeling that I have no business dating him, because it is causing me to go against my convictions, which are also my pastor's convictions. Says I would be much better stopping right now than letting it go another several months and then doing it, because then it will appear that I lead him on.

Heck, I think it will appear that way right now. We had a great time last night...no inkling of my saying "Bye-bye. I can't handle your past.)

(By the way...while the good night kisses (yes, plural) weren't exactly pecks on the cheek, it wasn't like we were necking up a storm either. They were just kisses--but enough to confirm to me that the chemistry I have felt since our first meeting at Barnes & Noble is not something I imagined.)

See, that's just it, and why this sucks so bad. I meet 4 guys. I feel chemistry for 1, and he's bad for me.

And I'm starting to think I'm the shallow one. I never thought looks mattered that much to me. But I'm finding in a way, they do. So just add that to the list of things I must have in order to date.

And the looks thing is a weird one, and not easy to specify on a dating site. I have figured out from looking at my ex, looking at others I'm attracted to, and looking at what I do and don't like in these dates I've had, that I'm a "mouth" person. It's not all that much about how much they weigh (within reason) or how tall they are (though they better be at least as tall as me!) or how much hair they have. But darn it, I can't get myself to feel much spark if the lips and the teeth and the smile aren't there. And I'm sort of partial to that little mustach/beard thing that so many guys have now. Ex has it. Guy #1 has it. It works for me.

So, here's what I want in a man (just so anyone here reading this can laugh, because it's so stupid!):

1) Christian--must put God first in his life.
2) If DV, must be due to infidelity or abandonment.
3) Must be at least 5'11" (so that we're the same height if I have on heels)
4) Must have a big smile (full lips are an extra plus) and relatively straight teeth.
5) Nice to have: nicely trimmed beard/mustache face hair thingie.
6) No addictions (alcohol, drugs, porn)
7) Must have semi-decent fashion sense.
8) Must not want more kids.
9) MUST BE WILLING TO WAIT FOR SEX UNTIL MARRIAGE.
10) Must not want to move me out of my area or make me leave my job.
11) Nice to have: Someone who likes to talk things out.
12) Must be okay with affection: hugs, kisses, etc., on a regular basis.

Fun list, huh. I hate it when I think!

LL

I'm feeling guilty about this one because I feel like I should give him more of a chance because he has a good personality, a quick sense of humor, and the beliefs I'm looking for. (We even had the sex talk--just because it came up as a part of our beliefs--and he shared that he does want to wait until marriage, and is feeling bad because the first woman he had a relationship with right after his DV was final, he ended up going there with her, and said that was a big part of the reason he eventually broke it off with her.)

So what's so wrong? Well, in all honesty, the distance is part of it. Unless I was completely bowled over by someone, 130 miles is too far, especially when I'm VERY settled and in taking to him, so is he for at least the next 7 years, until his kids are through college.

And part of it was the way he came off---he shook like a leaf for probably the first hour. I need a little more confidence than that. I have a fairly intense personality. I could scare the wits out of him.

But then it comes back down to the looks issue--and mainly the mouth. He didn't have it, and maybe it would have been okay, but he reminds me, because of his mouth, of a friend of my ex's from high-school. I didn't care for the guy back then, didn't enjoy him being around, and never found him attractive. I kept thinking of him as I was looking at this guy. That's so unfair, and so shallow, but it's true. And I don't need triggers of my past when starting a new relationship.

And furthermore, I share something else that is sort of weird: His now-deceased sister-in-law and I share the same first name. And why is she deceased? His wife left him for her own sister's husband (they are still together). Long story short, the sister committed suicide about a year ago because she couldn't handle it.

(Side note: how would you like to be a WS and have to live with the fact that your own sister killed herself because you took her husband.)

And then the final thing is that he is really, really looking for a serious relationship. He is definitely wife-hunting. I was very clear with him that I am not ready for a committed relationship with anyone (except guy #1 who is bad for me, of course). He is.

So while he may call me, I don't see this one going anywhere.

And something he said about not being comfortable doing the multiple dating thing (multiple women at the same time) really hit me hard. It's been bothering me from the start, too. I feel too weird about it. I do think I should limit myself to pursuing one date at a time. And if that doesn't work, THEN look for another--not be rotating guys to do things with.

???!!????

LL

I suck at dating. (Just felt the need to spit that out.)

Today, guy #2 (the one who doesn't share my beliefs, but that I've dated a couple times) calls. Just wants to know what I'm doing today and if I want to do something with him. He's going to friends' house tonight. I may go with him. He should be calling soon.

Somehow, one thing lead to another on the phone and I ended up being very honest about my issues with our differences in beliefs and that it's the "issue" I have that will cause me not to get serious. We went from there to my other issue--no sex before marriage. I'll give him this...he was only silent for 5 seconds. He obviously doesn't share the feeling, and is pretty open about it. But says he's dated other women who do feel that way and didn't feel that it in any way makes me weird.

So, while we'll go nowhere as a relationship, there is the potential to end up with a friend, as long as I'm careful about what we do and where we go.

As for guy #1, again he's been silent now since our date on Saturday which ended with my saying he was making it difficult for me to take things slow.

So, he either respects that, or he's pissed. Who knows. However, in typicall LL style, I think WAY too much, so decided since I keep getting sidetracked trying to ask questions or speak my mind when we're out, I'd just put my thoughts into an incredibly long email and send it.

That was stupid? Yes??

I took Knight's suggestion of "I enjoy going out with you, but..." and expanded it to about 4 pages. I explained that I do find him attractive, I really enjoy his company, and he's the first person I've met who I've been able to have the "faith" talks that I've had. And that I find myself looking forward to seeing him or talking to him.

However, then I explained my fear of becoming involved with someone I know so little about, and touched on my big concerns.

So, we'll see if he responds back or not I guess. If he does, that's both good (because I really like being around him) and bad (because I think he's bad for me). If he doesn't, it's good (because he's bad for me) and bad (because I don't have the photographic memory I wish I had to capture our last date for posterity...because it was very nice!). I'll miss him.

Either way, I'm not sure it's a winning situation. But I'll try and chalk it up to a learning experience.

Just all of you keep me on my toes, because I'm afraid of being sucked into the same type of emotional stupidity that a WS gets sucked into.

And you're right...the lack of physical touch of any kind for a good length of time does make it doubly hard, when it happens again, especially with someone I find truly attractive. But if it happens with someone I have no attraction to, then that's bad, too, because it won't be enjoyable. It'll just creep me out.

LL

Not such a bad end to the day, I guess, even though I spent the 4th alone... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

First, I found out after 7 years of living in my house, that my daughter's upstairs bedroom window provides a very good view of our suburb's fireworks. They're a bit muted by the trees, but it's still very pretty. And there was no fighting crowds or being eaten by mosquitos to see them.

Second, although Guy #2 didn't get done playing volleyball early enough to do anything tonight (actually, he still offered, but I took pity on him because he was exhausted and said let's wait a couple nights), we still had a nice friendly phone chat. And we came up with some possibilities of things to do some other night.

And Guy #1 got my novel of an email, admitted that I do think too much and that my over-analyzing bothers him, but responded very kindly. Although he's still darned silent on the first marriage, he did elaborate on the restraining order issue with the second one, and it fits what he told me before and what the on-line records show. It isn't an issue in my book. The marriages are.

But he understands that I need to heal a lot yet and that I need to be slow and date people and get to know them before I get serious, and actually he admits he's not ready to get serious with anyone either.

So it was left at, "You take care LL, and let's see what happens". I think that's probably the best answer I could have asked for right now.

So, I'll try and relax and not freak out so much and just go with the flow a little bit more.

LL

As a firm believer in upfront, frank, open communication, my vote is you did well, and got a good result for your efforts, you know more about #1 one, and how he orders himself and his life..that is a good thing. I am not so sure one can "think" too much...it is the actions resulting that count (for good or bad) not the thinking itself. If this little tiny bit of over-analyzing bothers him, then how the heck does he ever expect to function in a deep relationship is what I wonder. You laid your cards on the table, and indeed will see what happens..my guess is you feel more settled now, and that is a good thing too.

Well...maybe I did well at communicating and maybe I didn't. I apparently stuck my foot in my mouth on a comment I made about his being attractive and a bit of a flirt and how I am being careful because I know that combination can mean trouble. I guess I should have worded it differently because it is eating at him and he's sent me a couple more emails asking why I think he's a flirt, stating that he has girl friends but once he get serious with someone, the girl friends come to a halt so that there is no threat to the partner), but then he's gone on to say that my statement bothers him because my saying something like that so early on in this process along with things he's gleaned about my past make him think I may have a jealousy issue.

So now I'm dwelling on that (because one thing I've never thought I was is jealous--in fact had I been of the jealous type, I would have figured out that my ex was having the affair long before I did. I was used to him having women friends), feeling bad about bringing up something that was obviously sensivite (and truly, he's not a big in-your-face flirt...he just comes of as very friendly around people, but with a flirty edge). And my statement was based on past experiences, which is unfair to assume about him.

So now I have probably cooked my own goose. But I guess on the other hand, if it turns out that this bothers him to the point he can't get past it, there is definitely a personality issue and I need to be glad I found out now.

So, we wait... I need to learn what is important to mention and what should be kept to myself. I'm too open sometimes.

LL

Next yera Youll have to come to my house for the 4th. I had a party but so little to invite as I lost most of my family in the divorce. (My parents are both gone and my only bro lives in Colorado)my X's 2 cousins and their families who I was very fond of DID come, which was very nice

Yeah, divorce sucks, but you really seem to be good at the dtaing thing, you are just over-analyzing again. Remember when you were 15, 16, 17 18 etc......how many guys did you look at, wonder about, talk to, flirt with before you even dated. Dont rush it, you really are doing good..just out of practice so it feels uncomfortable. I was just as uncomfortable when I was 17 and doing the dating thing

It's good to consider feedback like that, because you never know when someone else's fresh insight can give you a helpful perspective. However, in this case, based on all your self-revelation on this board, I see no evidence of a jealousy issue.

That doesn't mean Guy #1's perspective isn't useful, however: indeed, it may tell you something about him! He may have a jealousy issue himself which he is projecting onto you, or he may have had to deal with a jealousy issue in a previous partner which makes him hyper-sensitive to such dynamics.

At least he's able to talk openly about it. That's a good sign.

You are getting out there, experiencing, and learning. Good for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just don't give up, k?

But, I'm confused. Did you decide to dump him cuz you like him too much, then it doesn't matter if you bothered him by over-analyzing, right? Just tell him that's how you are. You like to think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But, hey, Is it about him? Or about you? If ya'll like each other, then keep seeing him, and stay away from margaritas, and keep your goal in mind. If you don't like his marital-history, then that's different. What's the real reason? I'm reading that you're wanting to stay away from him because you want to get physical? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You don't suck at dating. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> No more than anyone else. Life is a journey - and you're walkin' girl!

The more I analyze, the more I think I'm about back to square one.

Guy #1 has been silent since the 2 emails I sent yesterday explaining where I was coming with the flirting comment (because he asked what I thought was flirting) and then sort of apologizing for even bringing it up because it caused such a stir. No more email responses, no nuthin'.

It's going to bother me if he just disappears without at least a little explanation after three very friendly dates. But I guess there's not much I can do about that now, is there? The ball's in his court. I sent the last communication. It's his turn.

Guy #2, the one I think could be a friend, is starting to scare me...not because I think he's getting serious at all...but because we do debate well and now I think he sees me as a challenge in many ways. And since he knows my stance on certain issues and I know he doesn't agree, I think he could also look at that as a challenge. He is obviously very driven by challenge: he's competitive in sports, he's working on his masters and is thinking of maybe going on for his doctorate, and he reads and thinks a lot and has bowled me over with very thought-provoking questions from day one. And I tend to not back down to challenges, so this could be not a good thing either.

Other than that, I'm out of guys at the moment. I really should email the one from northern Iowa with just a quick explanation of a couple things. He's not contacted me since we met, and for me that's fine, but I do feel bad because I know things didn't turn out at all like he'd convinced himself they would.

So, kind of bummin' today, because I've done a lot of searching profiles and I just am not having much luck finding more leads.

LL

Further response re the flirting was fine, what is it, why do you think that...blah blah blah. Sort of apologizing for bringing it up is NOT ok. It was a legitimate communication, expressed in a polite civil manner, and by sort of apologizing you have disrespected yourself, and your feelings...so why should anyone else respect LL feelings, opinions, communication style etc? Be authentic LL, and stop playing both sides, the men you date are adults, let them own their own feelings, your obligation is to be open and honest with who you are (as is true for all of us), and let the chips fall where they will. I still disagree that such behavior is just being a "nice" caring person. People who do this (too much), are just controll "freaks" of another stripe, and emotionally unsafe (not that u are, just making an observation). Until you stop trying to decide how others should feel (and altering your behavior accordingly) you are gonna have trouble in securing a safe/healthy relationship. Mostly cause you will appear confusing to the males who pursue you...or you will attract manipulative males who will use that behavior against you.

btw, it is impossible to cook your own goose, when you behave in an authentic way...the outcome will then be what it should be. No offense ll but you seem to have a strong need to be in control of both sides of this dating business...why is that? And do you think that serves you well? Trust me, this is all soooooooo much easier when you just worry about LL and let everyone else worry about themself, how they feel, and what they will do...in the meantime, pursue who you want, don't who you don't, and send out emails to new prospects if you want. There will be more.

I do like being in control in the sense that I like having a clue what's going on. I don't like not knowing or wondering what's next. It's hard for me.

But as for the "caring" vs. being controlling, I still have to disagree with that. I do care a great deal about others' feelings. I find that when I talk to my ex (very infrequently) or even the OW (or now, his fiancee), that I care about hurting their feelings. And it's not because I want to control either of them. I just tend to spend a lot of time putting myself in others' situations and saying "how would that make ME feel?" I don't like being hurt, and thus I don't like hurting others either.

Sometimes the people who are able to say anything to anyone without a care about how it might make the other person feel (because they don't own the other's feelings) seem to me as almost selfish...like it's all about them.

Just a difference in personalities. Mine, unfortunately, sets me up for boundary violations if I'm not on my toes.

LL

LL,
Can I ask you a question? Why don't you respond to me? Is it something about my communication? If so, please tell me, so I'll know. Do my posts not make sense? Are they dumb? I try to be short and to the point - maybe too much. I dunno. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Or, have I offended you? Should I stop posting? Perhaps my questions are dumb - maybe you've already answered my questions. I feel like I'm trying to clarify your real feelings. Maybe because of what knight said, that you seem to go back and forth so much.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> just trying to understand. I feel like if we're in a room chit-chatting, you are just looking at me with blank stares. Maybe my input is worthless. ??? I thought at the least that maybe it helps you to know that someone out here is reading and encouraging you.... I dunno. Maybe not.

<sound of crickets>