Yes, it describes me, too. I stayed with a guy for 5 years, before my marriage, and knew in my heart it would never work. I even cheated on him, which added guilt to the reasons for staying with him (that relationship taught me why I'll never again be the cheater in a relationship and my marriage taught me why I never want to be the one cheated on either!).

One of my issues, though, is that when I met my STBXH, I knew within the 6 months - 1 year period that he was the one, even though I also knew by then that he was an alcoholic. That's why I didn't marry him for 8 years, until he finally got sober. He was sober for 9 years, lost his sobriety and everything went downhill from there. Anyway, I felt I'd finally answered that question for myself "How will I know if I'm in love?". The answer: You just know. My problem is, look who I fell in love with. Not the nice guys, but the lying, cheating, alcoholic one! I overlooked so much because I wanted it to work and he was so much better when he got sober that he looked good. Looking back, though, there were still way too many issues.

I know it wasn't his alcoholism, abusiveness, or dishonesty that attracted me to him, but I'm still afraid of my poor track record. Still, that's no reason to just stay in a "safe" relationship.

And, yes, I have had contact with BF. I called him yesterday and he came over. He wanted to go out to eat, but I asked him if we could talk here because I knew I'd be emotional and didn't want to eat. I did most of the talking. I told him all the stuff I didn't tell him while we were together, all the unpleasant thoughts and feelings I don't like to admit I'm having - even to myself, all the fear-based decisions, all the denial and fault finding to protect myself (I'm sparing you the long-winded version). I cried. He was stoic and said little. I was so afraid to tell him all this stuff for fear of looking like a fool. It didn't seem to change his mind about anything. He took all his stuff I had packed up and in my car and gave me back my key. Before he left, he said he wanted to keep talking by e-mail because he said that's easier for him - I think he might've related to some of the stuff I said.

The good new for me is that I feel so much better. Even though I was very vulnerable, I cried, etc, even though he doesn't feel any different about us, I feel so relieved and emptied out to have told him all the stuff I was afraid to tell him while we were together. This is a really big deal for me. I've spent my whole life not revealing my feelings for fear of looking stupid, getting rejected, etc.

Also, while he was here, and after he was gone, I realized I never wanted to see him more than I did. When we met he worked nights so we only got together on weekends. This year he switched to days. I panicked at the thought we might have to spend more time together. He quickly got the message, unspoken, and things stayed the same as they had been. It seems pretty obvious this wasn't true love.

I needed to be honest, for me, because I want my relationships to be more honest than they have in the past. I want to use the MB principles in future relationships. I never really did in this one because I never thought it would last - good excuse not to risk. I'm still feeling sad, but without the self-pity. That's a good thing.

I talked to a woman on Saturday evening about the break-up after she asked me how he was doing. She told me she'd had a devastating break-up of a relationship following her first marriage I think, and then immediately met her current husband. So, I guess this isn't just an isolated incident. Heck, it happened to your BF, too.

Oh goodness, it sounds like you have had a emotional time since I last heard from you.

You know LetsTry, this is the one thing I have learened about myself since my divorce. I have become a much more honest person and upfront.
I'm not saying I was dishonest, or a liar. What I'm saying is, in my marriage, I was also always afraid to put my feelings on the table.
I have grown and learned so much since my divorce, but yet have still much learning to do.

I was 100% honest with my guy from the very beginning.
I never led him on. I told him many times where I was.
Of course, there were huge feelings there for both of us, but I didn't lead him on.

I'm glad you had the chance to talk to him and get things out on the table. Give yourself and him time, as hard as that is, and I know. Really, I do. Try the 2 week time period first. See how you feel after that amount of time.
Just my opinion, but I don't know how the two of you will do with the email communication. That may just drag out the inevitable, (if that is the conclusion).
You have to do whatever is right for you obviously, but for me, if I had kept the communication open, it would be more painful.

Isn't it amazing the stories we hear, and this particular one over, and over.
I know for me, I had had this feeling of wanting to date. To see what is out there in this world before commiting again. Dating is something I have really never did. Yes, I had the high school boyfriends, but I don't really consider this dating. My xbf wanted to keep that communication open also. But, it left me feeling that I couldn't date (which has not been a problem since there have been no opportunities anyway). He was in my heart, and I didn't feel free to follow through even if the opportuity would have presented itself.

I guess in all of this hurt, he has done me a huge favor. I am totally free, and I feel it in my heart too.
If someone were to ask me out at this point, I would feel no wrong doing in accepting the invitation.

SO, I guess I need to put myself out there now. Easier said than done!

I will keep you in my thoughts. The next couple weeks will be hard no doubt, but as several told me, you will get through it, and you will get stronger.

Take Care,
K.

I don't feel like our e-mail talking is a way to keep the door open. We travel in some of the same circles and will inevitably run into each other anyway so I'm glad we cleared the air. It actually feels more over now than it did before we (I) talked. Since he first left, I've been consumed with the feeling I'd thrown away a good thing by keeping him emotionally at arm's length. After I unburdened myself, I felt lighter, and after he left, I remembered more clearly how I'd always maintained the distance in our relationship because that's really all I wanted. I just hadn't told him this before. It was obvious, but until yesterday, unspoken. I still feel the sadness, but I don't have the woulda, coulda, shoulda feeling anymore.

I read your post on the dating thread and agree that eating out alone to meet men is way outside my comfort zone. I live in a semi-rural area where there's only one restaurant/bar I can think of anyway and it's virtually impossible to go anywhere without running into someone you know - and I don't even know that many people.

I'm not ready for dating anyway, and next time I think I'll at least wait until I'm divorced first. I'll keep watching how everyone else is doing though, because hopefully, it won't be too much longer...

Sounds like me too. I think I'll read that book. I'm 35, so when you mentioned it, I figured I wouldn't read it (yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ), but it sounds good!

Thanks, Karona!

Hey Faith1, I figured I would finish it before I put it on the "good book" list. But, I think its a good one so far.

I think it's geared towards women after 40 because we tend to feel like we are too old for all of this, and no one would want us.

I think anyone struggling with the dating scene and being a female would get something out of it.

Let me know what you think if you get it!

LetsTry,
I hope you took what I said the right way.
I don't to come across like I know it all....because I surely don't.

I hope your for you sake, the end is in sight so you can move on with your life.

Karona

What I still wonder about all this is how it fits with the MB concepts of meeting needs to fill the love bank, avoiding love busters, spending quality time together, and POJA. If that's all it takes, then why isn't the wonderful, successful, good with the kids guy enough? Are there unmet needs? unmentioned LB's? not enough time together? not using POJA? or is it something else?

When we were trying to recover our M's, we believed these were all it would take to bring love back to our marriages - that when the WS said he loved us but was not in love with us and was in love with the OP, it was because OP was meeting needs we weren't and WS's were just in the affair fog.

Aside from the obvious moral difference between infidelity within marriage vs a dating relationship, why were these guys not right for us? What was missing (if not needs, LB's, time, POJA, etc.)? Why do we fall in love in the first place? Could we have shared about His Needs/Her Needs and ended up in love?

It has to be the "something else"

You are so right, we had ALL the stuff, but there must have been some trigger, something missing.

My guy met my needs and then some! But, there had to be an underlying something there that made me question the next step.
I think part of it was, he dropped his own life. He is a lonely guy I think for the most part. He has no family here, (but neither do I with the exception of my children, and they do occupy a lot of my time)He does have single friends. He could go out every night of the week if he wanted to.
Instead, he wanted to be with me all the time.
He didn't understand that when the girls went to spend time with their dad, how I didn't want to have him right over 5 minutes later.
It became smothering. I felt like I was in high demand and I wanted to scream. I think at some point, I started to resent when he would come as soon as they left.
I can't blame him totally. In the beginning, I wanted the same thing. That was my time and I wanted to spend it with him.
But, I think at a point, I started to heal and started realizing that I needed some me time. Time for just me! To me, my me time was getting a pedicure, going for a walk, walking around the mall, or meet a girl friend(s) for lunch/dinner. Something where I didn't feel I had to put effort into. I'm not saying I had to put effort into all of my time with him. It was easy, it was fun, I was totally myself in this relationship, it was not fake at all. But, still, it is a giving of yourself, and apparently, I wasn't there yet.

I wonder so many times, if I met him today, would it turn out differently? That is my million dollar question.

As far as my x reading the book??
I don't think it would have helped. He was oblivious to my needs. He was raised in an environment where feelings were not stressed or important. For a woman and a mother, his mom is very hard to emotions.

Maybe it comes down to I wasn't in the right place *yet*.
Or maybe, (and this bothers me to say) he just wasn't the one for me, and I recognized it, but was afraid to admit it.

Karona

Good question LetsTry, if it is all just about "formulas" then becomeing an expert "partner" and dating another "expert" should automatically equal nirvana...but it doesn't (far more likely of course, but still...there is something else). Part of that something else is revealed a bit in karonas reply...you must WANT to meet someone elses needs, not just "do it".... the want comes from that mysterious feeling side of our natures....the "expert" side comes from out rational sides....that we can do, it is a "skill" it can be learned and applied....but the motivation comes from our feeling side, and that cannot be "decided" only "felt" and acted on. Because feelings do not obey the laws of rational logic, they must always be examined for safety BEFORE acting on them...and therein lies all the angst of relationship building and relationship failing...are our emotions "right" or do they reflect some shortcoming in ourself, that if we "fixed" would lead to a different emotion. Did karona feel smoothered because she has a fear of committment...probably. But it could also have been an important message telling her this man despite his good stuff, is actually a controller, and therefore dangerous, and the good stuff just the bait....a gilded cage is still a cage, albeit a more comfortable one, and some will choose it as good enuf...some won't.

I have pondered this mystery for some time, and have reached this conclusion. Here it is for your...hmm..entertainment..smile..

First we all have a personal decision to make about how we order our life, this requires a deep and thorough understanding of who we are (not a common focus for many, but essential to maximize our strategies to ensure well-being). This encompasses a number of things such as life work, enviroment we wish to live in, spirituality (which grounds our ethics/morals)...but in regard to relationships we must discern and decide whether we are the single kind, or the marrying kind.

If we are the marrying kind, then we "decide" (because we see the logic of it) to learn the skills of successful coupling (essentially MB stuff and similar), and we apply ourselves vigorously to that task. We also recognize the need to understand human behavior and do the same study. So we can recognize poor marital prospects (no matter how attracted we are to them), and we also come to "recognize" our own shortcomings, so we can fix what we can, or learn to live in a healthy manner with what we can't change (and that is essential in picking a partner, we have to fit not only with the good stuff, but also with the bad stuff in each of us).

Armed with these skills we have one more thing to "learn", and that is dating skills, so we apply that (mostly on the job training), cause that also helps insure we don't fall into emotional deadends.

After we have "learned" and applied all we can rationally...then we are best equipped to make the emotional decison too...it is my opinion emotions are partly the outcome of our behavior/expectations/experience etc. and these are all modifiable by decideing to be (and acting accordingly) healthy. That is why people coming off of divorces etc. generally make poor emotional decisons, they are unhealthy, often injured, usually ignorant, and ill-equipped to "feel" a good partner choice.

At this point we are well-equipped to recognize a potential partner,pursue successfully, and listen to our feelings. I think the feelings tell us when we have someone we can committ too, be one with, but those feelings are hard to read unless we are doing all the rational stuff right...if we are, and this one just doesn't "feel" right, then we should move on...it doesn't even mean the other is necessarily dysfunctional, they may be a good choice...just not for you. Of course we agonize over this cause there is no way to hold the feelings accountable, to take them out dissect them, look at them, see "why" it is a different animal, and it does make a difference who we choose to bond with...no matter how good it looks on paper... So rather than try and figure out the emotions, we should do the rational part as successfully as possible, and that will give us the best emotional read too (although no gaurantees, in the end it is a a leap of faith...and those who are risk averse will have problems...and that will be reflected in negative emotions, and committment reluctance...there is a solution for that, but a different matter from this post).

In short I agree there is something else, our feelings are how we assess that something else, and we need to listen to them...but we also have to assess how healthy we are, how appropriate our behavior, our fears, cause that will impact how we "feel", and therefore mislead us...whether into, or out of, a relationship.

Or one could go the other route, and just advertise to for a mail order spouse, and marry the one with the best specs. Statistically, arranged marriages are just as successful (or unsuccessful depending on how you look at it) as chosen marriages.

Yes. What's been nice in the communication I've had with my X since the break-up is we can both agree about this with the best intentions of not hurting each other. We were both feeling guilty for not being able to love the other but afraid to say so.

It sounds like your X really wants to be married and was doing everything he could to convince you to marry him. The fact that he jumped so quickly into another relationship (hopefully one that's a better fit for both of them) indicates his desire for marriage was more important than the person he was marrying. I think after all we've been through, we're looking for more than that.

knight50, Very well said. It just sounds like so much work and hooks into my feelings of inadequacy ;-). I sometimes try to overcome my risk-averseness (is that a word?) by taking unreasonable risks to get it over with. This last relationship was a safe harbor with a nice man who I hoped I could grow to love because it would be so much easier than going through the pain of another break-up and starting over again.

It would be wonderful to be able to do all the work necessary, all the self-examination, and choose as well as our family and friends could from their standpoint of loving objectivity.

Quote-Knight50
Did karona feel smoothered because she has a fear of committment...probably. But it could also have been an important message telling her this man despite his good stuff, is actually a controller, and therefore dangerous, and the good stuff just the bait....a gilded cage is still a cage, albeit a more comfortable one, and some will choose it as good enuf...some won't.

Knight50-
At that point in my life, yes. It was very much a fear of committment. I was married a total of 18 years. I don't take marriage lightly. I've been divorced now 1.7 years. I don't know at what point I will be ready for marriage, but I can tell you it would not have been in that first year.
I wonder about your take on the other stuff though. I never viewed him this way. *IF* this were to describe his personality, I would be so thankful to have trusted myself.

I agree with LT., very well said!

LT-
Yes, it seems that way. I have no idea at all who this person is, or what she is like. But, he very much wants to be married, the end!! I hope for him, it doesn't backfire on him.
He is a very giving person. I fear for him, a woman could take him for just about everything he has.

Karona

There is one last piece to this puzzle, I try to confine my general advice to apply to all...but in the case of "feeling" the right person, I must mention that is where we seek God's guidance, He has to be a part of this process. If we ask (pray) for discernment AND do all our own work (some think God is gonna fexEx them a mate...nah, don't work that way), then we have done all we can do to avoid mistakes...at the same time satan will be tempting us away from good judgement (rational or feeling), so can be confusing, but by prayer and a committment to date in a Christian fashion, one maximizes the likelihood of success.

note...I have no interest in starting, nor will participate in a religious discussion...I posted this to be complete re my understanding of successful mate selection, I am aware not all think this is important, so no need to remind me.

I do have this piece of the puzzle covered!!
I pray for guidance with this part all the time.

Thanks Knight!

K>

knight50, Yes, you're so right about turning to God. I still get confused about the "do all our own work" part, but I am praying to know God's will for me. I think we have some religious differences, but there's a lot we can agree on, too.

My thought here is that it's hard enough to maintain one's own identity without being responsible for maintaining someone else's as well. A healthy partnership is symbiotic, not parasitic - even when the parasite does all the right things to make its host feel good about its presence. It may implant an electrode directly into the pleasure center of the host's brain, but it's not doing that for the benefit of the host; it's doing it for its own needs.

Personally, I don't believe it's possible to shift that quickly from one relationship to another unless one was really more in love with being in a relationship than with the actual person.

Perhaps both, Karona. But I think the latter is the more significant factor. I think you knew at an intuitive level that this wasn't a healthy relationship, but because of your unreadiness it was easy to blame your own unreadiness as the sole cause. So now you feel that if you only could have become ready more quickly you could have had a healthy relationship.

I strongly suspect that that would not have happened. I strongly suspect that his own issues would have prevented it.

Thanks GDP.

I do blame myself for the failure, because I was the one all along that knew I was in something I wasn't ready for and had no business being in.
I get mad at myself to have not been strong enough to push it away until the "right" time.

I was weak and I will admit, it felt pretty darned good for someone so kind to have found me attractive, worthy, and special. All the things you are stripped of when your spouse leaves you for someone else.

But, maybe your right. Maybe if I had met him at this point, these same issues would have reared their ugly head just the same.

As far as your reply above, That is very powerful. Your very insightful.

Karona

I see this as a battle for me too...a real need of validation by women that I am attractive, funny and desirable after having been treated like $h!t by someone who SAID (in words) and didn't show (in ACTIONS) that she loved me. The BS's battle I suppose... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

At least we are aware of this "chink in our armor" and hopefully, will not let it run amok!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

WNB

That was probably the main reason I got into a relationship I knew wasn't going anywhere when I wasn't even emotionally available. I felt so devalued when my STBXH left me for a woman 28 years younger than I am. I felt unattractive and OLD. I was 49 when he left and turned 50 eight months later. My XBF was 8 years younger than I am, which was affirming in itself.

I've always looked young for my age - something I hated in high school. I was mistaken several times for 12 years old when I was 18! It was great as I got older, but at my current age, "young for my age" is still OLD. Even here on MB, there are a few people close to my age here, but I don't know of anyone older.

BTW, I have to say I'm starting to feel better. My initial reaction when XBF left was to feel that I'd made a big mistake and hadn't appreciated him enough or tried hard enough. Now I realize he was a nice guy, but I never thought of him as a marriage prospect. It was healing to have a relationship with a good, honest, faithful, trustworthy, kind, reliable man after the abusive relationship with my STBXH.

Fortunately, we both felt the same about each other so no one got hurt. Yes, I'm still grieving the loss in some ways, but realizing again that it wasn't right for me (or for him) is helping me with the sadness. The what if's and if only's are gone.

WNB~~

I suppose it is a "clink" as you put it. I'm at a better place now and feel better about myself.
I believe I am worthy, and someday I will be a fine catch for someone! Until then, I will just be content with my life the way it is.

LT~~

OUCH! 28 years younger. I bet he thinks he has a trophy!

It's great that you have youthful looks. I bet you did hate it when you were young though. We always want to look older when were young, and then we get up here, and we want the opposite!

I'm so glad to read that you are doing better. I think as time passes, we are able to see more clearly. And just maybe, not doubt ourselves so much for the feelings we were feeling.

Hopefully we both learned that we are capable of a healthy relationship, and we will recognize one when it happens for us.

Karona

No, OW is definitely not a trophy. Even WH tried to defend his choice of someone so young by telling me she obviously wasn't a trophy girlfriend. I gave up trashing her here many years ago so I'll leave it at that!

AMEN!