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This "After Divorce" period is about more than just "Dating and Relationships", it's about Learning or Relearning How To Be Single, too, even if only for a short time. Having a single social life is different than the social life in a relationship. Losing friends, making new friends, and getting outside the comfort zone of doing things with a partner are all new challenges.
With my business, I deal with people - employees, vendors, representatives of various agencies I interact with - all day, so when I'm in a relationship, I'm ready for some alone time at the end of the day. Now, socializing mostly with employees isn't enough. I've already met more people in the 4.5 years since my H left than I met in the 8 years we lived here before he left.
I think if I can learn to be comfortable living alone I'll be much less likely to get into a relationship for the wrong reasons - like, so I won't have to be alone.
FBS, D'day 12/00 * NC since 5/02 * divorce final 5/06 * property settlement 9/06
What you can do or think you can do, begin it. For boldness has Magic, Power, and Genius in it. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Yes LT, that pretty much sums it up!
I spent almost half my life with my x, so it is very much learning how to be single.
I think if/when we get to the point of being totally comfortable living a life as single, then we are better prepared for being a couple.
K.
Divorced 12/17/2003
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Hi K, Just wanted to thank you for all your support and wish you a wonderful weekend. Sorry you can't come out on the boat with me ;-). Let us know how the golf clinic goes.
FBS, D'day 12/00 * NC since 5/02 * divorce final 5/06 * property settlement 9/06
What you can do or think you can do, begin it. For boldness has Magic, Power, and Genius in it. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Hi LT~~
You have been supportive as well, and I've enjoyed talking to you.
I'm sorry I can't come too! I am meeting a couple of friends today on their's though. I will think of you on yours!
I start my golf Tuesday eve. I'm looking forward to it, but I'm oh so clueless about the whole game.
I hope my instructor has patience!
I wish you a good weekend also.
Karona
Divorced 12/17/2003
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I had an okay weekend, mostly worked, though I went out on the boat Friday with a few friends and had a nice time.
Please think of me tomorrow. The woman who represents the company that's been considering making an offer on my business sent me an e-mail and wants to talk Monday. What she says will determine whether I decide to sell the business or fight to keep it. If her offer is significantly lower than the appraised value I'm going to tell my lawyer I want to offer to buy it at that value myself. If she offers close to the appraised value I probably have to sell. If she doesn't want to make an offer at all, that will be three refusals from large companies, the only ones likely to want to buy my business. I'll tell my lawyer I won't pay the appraised value for it in that case either, but it will make determining a fair value more difficult.
I'm ready to finish this, but nervous about the outcome. The business involves three homes, which are steadily increasing in value, as is the property I'm living on, while I steadily pay down the mortgages. In other words, every month I owe my XH more to keep them, despite the fact he's done nothing for five years... no, I'm not going there.
Also, I still feel vulnerable, allowing him to hurt me by fighting me on this and possibly destroying my chances to keep the business. I still want him to appreciate what I've done for both of us. If I hadn't been able to run the business alone, which I had no idea I could, we'd both have suffered financially. I saved both of us by cutting him off from the money and getting a restraining order to keep him away. I'm sure he doesn't see it this way, but it's the truth. He's a real wild man when he's drinking and using and we are a heavily regulated business in which his behavior could've easily gotten us shut down. I've spent the past five years straightening out the books, purging his drug abusing friends, etc, etc.
Reaching this point is bringing back the pain. I know I'll be better when it's over, but this is just the beginning of the final battle. I can only hope it won't be a battle, but that would be totally out of character for him to just be agreeable.
In the beginning, I was terrified to reach this point because I was sure he could outsmart and outmanuever me. Now, I'm ready for the chips to fall where they may, but I'm still afraid.
So, think of me tomorrow. It's just the beginning and she may just tell me she wants more information or something, but I'm still going to be shaking when I talk to her!
FBS, D'day 12/00 * NC since 5/02 * divorce final 5/06 * property settlement 9/06
What you can do or think you can do, begin it. For boldness has Magic, Power, and Genius in it. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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I'm thinking of you today LT, and wondering if the meeting is taking place yet.
How would you feel to sell the business at this point?
I would think it would be hard because you have kept it going alone for 5 years.
Don't underestimate yourself in this. Maybe 5 years ago he could have outsmarted/manuevered you, but your a different person now then when he was involved. You would have to be. You just may surprise yourself!
From what you describe, I don't think this man appreciates what you have done. He claims his paycheck and does nothing for it. The only way he could maybe appreciate it is if he would clean himself up. Until then, I don't see it.
It sounds like you have a well thought out plan.
I'm sure you've done a lot of thinking since the email.
I wish you the best outcome, you deserve it.
Pleae let me know how things go. I care.
My weekend went very well. I had dinner with friends Friday, and then did the mexican place. Sat. I went on a pontoon for the day. It was so relaxing and I got some sun!
I bet you love yours.
I will keep you in my thoughts today.
Take Care,
Karona
Divorced 12/17/2003
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Thanks K. No, I haven't talked to her yet but, you know how things always look brighter in the morning? I'm feeling better. No, I don't want to lose the business. My experience with the courts so far has been he's gotten his way pretty much every time, which is baffling because of his condition. I try to look at it objectively, as the court does, and I do have all the assets, he has very little except 1/2 the money from the house and his check every two weeks.
I know he can't appreciate me - in Al-Anon we call it going to the hardware store for bread - obviously he's the wrong person to go to for appreciation. I've been in NC for so long, over 3 years, and there are apparently some feelings that I left there that still need resolution. Even though I know he's an addict/alcoholic and incapable of being reasonable or appreciative, even though it's been a great relief to have no contact, my feelings aren't totally healed. Being in the relationship with my XBF kind of put all that on hold.
I started and stopped the Mars/Venus book but I did start a really good one called "In the Meantime, Finding Yourself and the Love You Want" by Iyanla Vanzant.
Glad to hear you had a good weekend. Yes, I really enjoy the pontoon boat. They're great for entertaining and fast enough to get where you want and have some fun. My weekend was good in that I got a lot of my paperwork done and won't be up all night finishing it at the last minute!
FBS, D'day 12/00 * NC since 5/02 * divorce final 5/06 * property settlement 9/06
What you can do or think you can do, begin it. For boldness has Magic, Power, and Genius in it. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Hi LT~~
How did things turn out yesterday? Any news? I hope it was positive whatever the outcome was thus far.
I do know what you mean about the whole feeling issue.
That is why I knew I couldn't have been in a relationship when I was, but was, and it just doubled the "stuff" I needed to get through.
There is so much crud to get through when you divorce, and I believe we just need time to do that.
I'm feeling pretty good about most things these days. I have had a couple of guys express interest and I'm finding I'm dodging it pretty good. I don't know what that means exactly. Am I just not ready, or does that make me afraid of a relatioship?? Maybe they just aren't the "right" guy.
I guess I'm wondering, do you go out with someone that you have zero immediate attraction to??
The book sounds interesting that you are currently reading. Let me know what you think when your done.
Fill me in on things when you can.
K.
Divorced 12/17/2003
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I finally heard from the woman representing the company who I thought might make me an offer. Her answer was that her company isn't interested in making any new acquisitions in my geographic area for at least another 4-6 months because it would overburden their acquisitions team... She asked if I wanted suggestions of other companies to contact. I told her who I'd already contacted and one was the company she was going to suggest. She mentioned the name of a business broker, couldn't find his number, but said she'd e-mail me with it when she found it. I called my lawyer and let him know. I don't know if I misunderstood his response yesterday, but he seemed much more understanding of my situation and what I want today. There is so much crud to get through when you divorce, and I believe we just need time to do that. So true. I wasn't ready to be in a relationship either, but now, looking back, I don't regret it. I think I would've had a much harder time getting through the last 3 years alone. I saw XBF at Al-Anon tonight, even brought him some vegetables from the garden he planted for me. I also was reminded of why I felt most incompatible with him. We look at life differently. Despite everything, I'm an optimist. I never knew that about myself until I went through all this stuff over the past 7-8 years. XBF even told me once that's what he liked most about me, that I'm so positive. He has a job he hates, he dreams of being something he'll probably never be, mostly because he doesn't do what he needs to do to get there. He thinks he's accepting God's will for him, but I believe God works with us, doesn't drop stuff in our laps, or at least not most of the time. Anyway, I wanted to start giving him advice, no, I did start giving him advice, I want him to believe in himself more, go after what he wants. He didn't like my advice giving, never has, and I stopped, but felt frustrated. His advise to me would be in the form of telling me all the things I needed to do that I was neglecting and I didn't like that either! I'm very lucky there's not more pain there. We were together 3 years and it could've been much harder than it was. I'm feeling pretty good about most things these days. I have had a couple of guys express interest and I'm finding I'm dodging it pretty good. I don't know what that means exactly. Am I just not ready, or does that make me afraid of a relatioship?? Maybe they just aren't the "right" guy. Wow, good for you! I don't think you're afraid of relationships, I think you're trusting your inner guidance. Right guy, right time, who knows. Having them showing interest must be reassuring that when you're ready, you won't have to look too hard! I guess I'm wondering, do you go out with someone that you have zero immediate attraction to?? I'd say, only if you feel like it, if you think you'll have a good time.
FBS, D'day 12/00 * NC since 5/02 * divorce final 5/06 * property settlement 9/06
What you can do or think you can do, begin it. For boldness has Magic, Power, and Genius in it. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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The book sounds interesting that you are currently reading. Let me know what you think when your done. I copied some quotes from the first 40 pages for a friend in the same situation. I'll cut and paste it here so you can see what you think: In the meantime, you will have an experience or a series of experiences -- earth shattering, heartbreaking experiences that are designed to eliminate your false needs. It is a process divinely designed to help you clear out your stuff....
In the meantime, cleaning, clearing, and elimination can look like dishonesty, infidelity, betrayal, and abandonment. It's not! It is all the stuff that you hold on to that keeps you from a true and honest experience of love....
The meantime is like that: You get what you want only to discover that it is not what you thought it would be! Now you're stuck -- or at least you think you're stuck!...
Why couldn't he love me? What was wrong with me? If you are anything like me, these are just a few of the questions you will ask yourself in the meantime....
The truth is that you are probably angry! The truth is that you are probably afraid! The truth is that until you learn to face the truth, you are never going to find the love you so desperately want. The truth is that love is buried in your soul, and no relationship with anyone can unearth it or activate it in your life...
It is the work we are called to do on ourselves in order to experience love that makes the meantime so challenging. Nowhere do we learn more about ourselves and life than in relationships...
Once I learned my lessons and applied them, my life took off in an entirely different direction. I no longer needed to do things to prove myself worthy of being loved. I was no longer afraid to ask for what I wanted for fear that I wouldn't get it. I was no longer angry when things didn't go my way. Most important I was no longer angry about what I could not and did not have in a relationship. In the meantime, I learned how to mind my own business. The business of loving myself and being excited about me. I learned how to fly on my own.....
The same confusion I had about loving myself and loving my him showed up in my career...
In much the same manner I had him and lost him, I had jobs and lost them. In much the same way that our time together was disappointing, unsatisfactory, my career was disappointing....
I had to work very hard to become aware of myself and to accept myself for all and everything that I am...
I had placed so many conditions on loving and being loved.....
I had to take responsibility for letting the house get so messy, and I had to own up to the fact that I was the only one who could clean up the mess....
Ambivalence, confusion, reluctance, and paralysis are all characteristics of the meantime...
Life would be so much easier if, when we hit a snag in a relationship, any relationship, we would stop, address it, and move ahead smoothly. The truth is, in most cases, we could do just that. The reality is, we don't do it!...
When the relationship at issue is an intimate, loving one, the attempt to move forward without addressing the pain only complicates matters, further poisoning the relationship...
Being alive means that we are occupants in love's house and are accountable to love's rules. Neither life nor love requires us to give up our dignity, self-worth, career objectives, favorite television program, or our good common sense. For some reason, we don't always understand this....
We do not understand that the highest expression of love is the experience and realization of more -- more of who you are, what you do, what you believe, and what you have. Love has the ability to bring all of you together under one roof, at one time, as one experience....
We attempt to create this union with others before first creating it within ourselves....
You cannot get love from the outside until you are love on the inside.
We go into a relationship looking for love, not realizing that we must bring love with us. We must bring a strong sense of self and purpose into a relationship. We must bring a sense of value, of who we are. We must bring an excitement about ourselves our lives, and the vision we have for these two essential elements. We must bring a respect for wealth and abundance. Having achieved it to some satisfactory degree on our own, we must move into relationships willing to share what we have, rather than being afraid of someone taking it....
When we do have these things in place, the search to find love sets up the experiences we need to discover what is true about love and what is not. The discovery process is called the meantime....
What we fail to understand is that we are the love we seek..
Until, however, we can recognize ourselves as love and live in harmony with our true identity, the void grows deeper, wider, and more painful. ...
When you are in the meantime you want an escape route! You want something to do other than all the meantime stuff...
The meantime is not about breaking up attachments, It is about creating attachments honestly and lovingly...
People cannot fulfill your needs. They may want to, they may try to. They may convince you that they can, but they cannot...
We distract one another so that we forget, temporarily, what we need....
In a nutshell, people need love. God is love. What we need is God, but that's too esoteric for most of us to handle. It's also pretty frightening!...
Instead,we say we need the love of another person because this is the kind of love most of us believe we can handle -- to some degree or another...
We are not always aware of how our needs lead us into dark corners. Try as we might to be alert, strong, and positive when it comes to love matters, many of us seem to always end up someplace we do not want to be -- alone in the meantime, looking for a relationship.....
...picking on yourself is the height of meantime behavior and it is the very behavior that will make you say or do something you really don't want to do...
Here is a meantime tip -- we love in others what we love in ourselves. We despise in others what we cannot see in ourselves...
People will resist having your stuff dumped in their lap because all too often it is also their stuff -- the stuff they can't see. They resist by fighting or running away...
As crazy as it seems, the person who stays to fight with you... is usually the one who really loves you.. They love you and are willing to duke it out with you and your stuff in order to facilitate mutual healing....
The internal conflict and turmoil of a meantime experience is a direct result of your failure to do one of the following four things for yourself and in your relationships:
1. You failed to be clear and articulate exactly what you wanted, needed, or expected from yourself and for others:
2. You failed to tell the absolute, unedited, microscopic truth to yourself, to another, about yourself, about another, with regards to what you wanted, needed and expected in any relationship;
3. You failed to ask for what you wanted and accepted what was offered while being fully aware it was not even closely related to what you had in mind:
4. You moved forward in a relationship in a consciousness of fear.
...There is no prescribed period or length of time you can spend in the meantime....
You will stay in the meantime for as long as it takes to get your inner workings in order. You will also be there for as long as it takes, not only for you to get ready, but for someone else to get ready. In other words, you may be ready, but your divine mate may not be ready. You may be healed of your insecurities, but your perfect partner may not be quite healed yet. You may have done all the forgiving you need to do, but the person you are waiting for may not have even begun to do forgiving and releasing work....
This is a good thing! The meantime is protective as well as preparatory.
...while you are in the meantime waiting for the divine experience, you can and will have meantime experiences, meantime relationships that are valuable and meaningful. Never believe that what you do in the meantime, even when it means you have short-lived relationships, is a useless waste of time. Every relationship is the relationship you need at the time.
FBS, D'day 12/00 * NC since 5/02 * divorce final 5/06 * property settlement 9/06
What you can do or think you can do, begin it. For boldness has Magic, Power, and Genius in it. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Darn!!
I was hoping for you that this would be the deal, as I'm sure you were too. In the big scheme of things 4-6 mos is not that long of a time, BUT when your trying to move on with your life and settle things, that amount of time can be eternity. I remember it well. My divorce went very smooth really. It should have been final 9/03, but x wanted to talk about $$ more, so it was set for 12/03. It was only 3 months later, but at that point, I just wanted it done.
But, maybe something will come of the broker lead.
I hope you read your attorney right. I'm sure your getting really tired of all of this.
I understand your point about the xbf.
I guess I would have to say the same. I don't honestly regret my relationship either. I know he helped me through a very hard time. I was recovering from 2 of lifes hardest blows. So, for that, I'm grateful. He made me feel special, attractive, wanted and all that wonderful stuff. But, there are things that someone else can't provide for you. They have to come from within us.
I guess that's where you and I are now. I'd say were doing okay.
It must give you some peace to see these couple of things about him that were your stumbling blocks, and recognize them, now too. To not have the feeling of "oh, did I mess up".
As far as what I mentioned. I hope your right. I don't want to have a fear of a relationship. I want to experience one at it's best, when it's right.
The one guy is at the gym I go to. It's terrible, ever since I found out he wants my #, I have been avoiding going, to a degree. Silly me.
Are the meetings helping you? I hope so.
Take care,
I printed the book info. Thanks for sending it to me.
K.
Divorced 12/17/2003
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Three refusals on the business gives me some leverage for saying it's not worth the appraised value. I haven't heard back about the business broker so I'm not holding my breath. My divorce hasn't gone smoothly and I don't expect it to start now. My lawyer and my accountant met today.
I go to an all women's gym, so I don't have to worry about that - IF someone was even expressing interest in me, which, at the moment, no one is. Speaking of the gym... I skipped Monday and Tuesday and promised myself I'd go the rest of the week (it's closed Sunday). I came home to get something to eat and cool off but I'd better get going before I get too settled.
Yes, the meetings help a lot. I really like the 12-step program approach. It focuses on our relationship with God/Higher Power and taking personal responsibility for our lives.
FBS, D'day 12/00 * NC since 5/02 * divorce final 5/06 * property settlement 9/06
What you can do or think you can do, begin it. For boldness has Magic, Power, and Genius in it. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Three refusals on the business gives me some leverage for saying it's not worth the appraised value. So, then, you can make an offer and keep it? (0f course, if he accepts) Maybe things are turning in your favor afterall. Going to the gym does take discipline. It's easy to talk yourself out of going. Having a workout buddy also keeps me in check! But that doesn't always work out either. I may check out the book your reading. From what you sent, it sounds pretty good. Talk to you soon. K.
Divorced 12/17/2003
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As far as what I mentioned. I hope your right. I don't want to have a fear of a relationship. I want to experience one at it's best, when it's right.
The one guy is at the gym I go to. It's terrible, ever since I found out he wants my #, I have been avoiding going, to a degree. Silly me. I am trying to understand this. I've started coming to this forum because of this thread. I am experiencing the same thing, just from the other side. If I may take a stab, I would guess that you have a fear of confrontation that is equal to or greater than your current fear of a relationship? Why not tell him that you aren't interested? Or are you interested, but afraid of the pain a relationship might bring?
~Big Guy
BigGuy1965a118 @ MatchDotCom
Currently a RENTER.
Still working on my TAKER.
Looking for the one who'll hold my hand at 85.
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I am trying to understand this. I've started coming to this forum because of this thread. I am experiencing the same thing, just from the other side.
If I may take a stab, I would guess that you have a fear of confrontation that is equal to or greater than your current fear of a relationship?
Why not tell him that you aren't interested? Or are you interested, but afraid of the pain a relationship might bring? I would say I'm just not interested in this particular guy. I fear him asking me because of my non interest. Your right, I don't want to face him and let him know that I'm not interested. I know it takes courage to ask someone out, and I take no joy in turning him down (IF he were to ask). I'm sorry, I don't know your story. I'd be glad to read it if you want to fill me in, or let me know your post and I will read it there. Thanks, Karona
Divorced 12/17/2003
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So, then, you can make an offer and keep it? (0f course, if he accepts)
Maybe things are turning in your favor afterall. Hopefully! My lawyer and accountants met yesterday. My lawyer has an appointment with my H's lawyer to explain some financial issues to her. I expect my H to blow up, but who knows. I need to make an appointment with my lawyer to draw up a final offer. Going to the gym does take discipline. It's easy to talk yourself out of going. Having a workout buddy also keeps me in check! But that doesn't always work out either. I'd been doing pretty well until this week - stuff kept coming up at work - but I plan to get back into it today. Whenever I've had a workout buddy, more often than not we'd just support each other's excuses. I may check out the book your reading. From what you sent, it sounds pretty good. It's very positive and uplifting. My only criticism is it's so idealistic I sometimes feel like I'll never be healthy enough for a relationship. I'll be stuck in "the meantime" forever, or at least until I'm too old to care! Your right, I don't want to face him and let him know that I'm not interested. I know it takes courage to ask someone out, and I take no joy in turning him down (IF he were to ask). I agree. Why hurt someone's feelings unnecessarily. We need a list of pleasant ways to say No Thanks. I don't feel like dating (good since I'm still going through divorce and no one's asking!) and wonder how I'll know when I'm ready, but I think we'll know when we are...
FBS, D'day 12/00 * NC since 5/02 * divorce final 5/06 * property settlement 9/06
What you can do or think you can do, begin it. For boldness has Magic, Power, and Genius in it. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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I agree. Why hurt someone's feelings unnecessarily. We need a list of pleasant ways to say No Thanks. From this side of the fence, a simple "No Thanks" is way more preferable than intentional wrong numbers, screened phone calls or never returned messages. (not to imply that you do any of these things) If she's not interested, I'd much rather know up front than having to waste my time calling and ultimately made to feel like an idiot. My best experiences? Those who found something to compliment me on before laying out the rejection. "You seem like a great guy, but..." As the wise one once said... A Spoonful of sugar....
~Big Guy
BigGuy1965a118 @ MatchDotCom
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Looking for the one who'll hold my hand at 85.
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Thanks TBG~~
I will take this into consideration!
LT~~
It sounds like things are moving anyway, and that is positive. He may blow, but he may be at a point where the settlement sounds to good to pass.
YIKES, now there's a scary thought. To be stuck in the meantime forever. I think there will come a point though, where we feel we are ready, and then we will take with us what we have learned, and we will be much more prepared for it.
For me and dating, I think it may have to sneak up on me.
I think I want it to just casually happen, not force it.
Start off as just being social, no sparks maybe, just casual conversation. Then be pleasantly surprised when I realize there are feelings.
I finished my golf lessons last night. That game takes a lot of concentration and skill. I enjoyed it and I'm glad I did it. I don't have any outings set up, but maybe in the future.
Take care,
K
Divorced 12/17/2003
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More positive news from my lawyer today. He spoke with STBXH's lawyer and she wants me to pay her bill, since he isn't - my lawyer told her that could be arranged though it will be part of STBXH's share. She wants me to pay him spousal support - my lawyer told her to go ahead and take that to court to see what a judge says. She said he needs money to live on - my lawyer suggested a job. She says STBXH is disabled and - my lawyer suggested that if he was truly disabled, he'd get a monthly check along with the money I send him every two weeks.
I'm meeting with him on Tuesday to go over the numbers, but it's sounding better. I hate to get my hopes up to believe it might finally get settled. It's sad to remember how hard I fought to save my marriage and now think of divorce with relief.
I agree about dating. I expect I'll feel ready eventually. For now, at least, I'm like you, casual sounds good.
You've already finished the golf lessons?! Wow, that was quick. Do you have friends who play or did you meet any people in the class you could play with? Do you own clubs or can you rent them? My H was a great starter of hobbies. He got into golf for a while. I tried playing with him a few times but it seemed like it would take way more time and effort than I was willing to expend to get good.
Can you believe it's already the weekend again? I don't have any plans. I think I felt like I had to try to stay busy after XBF left, but I may just take it easy this weekend. There's plenty of stuff I can do around here to spruce up my little travel trailer!
Hope you have a great weekend.
FBS, D'day 12/00 * NC since 5/02 * divorce final 5/06 * property settlement 9/06
What you can do or think you can do, begin it. For boldness has Magic, Power, and Genius in it. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,430
Member
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Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,430 |
I can't believe you didn't blow over that one. Spousal support? Geez! And why doesn't he get a job?! That's ridiculous.
It does sound like things are moving, and that is a good sign.
I bet his would like paid. Can you imagine?? What a mess!
It is sad. I remember trying so hard, and begging x to stay, but then we get to that breaking point, and want it done, over.
The golf was only 3 nights. There is so much to learn in the game. It's a mind game. So many things to remember. I don't know what possessed me to do it. Just something out of my comfort zone. I don't own clubs, don't belong anywhere to go, I really don't have friends that go. I just wanted to try to meet some women. They were pretty much all married and older. I thought it could be a chance for me to meet someone to hang out with. But, it was fun and I'm glad I did it.
Don't know when I will go again. But, I could just get a club or two, and go on the weekend to the driving range.
My yd came home today from vacation. She's a chatter box! My od comes home Sunday.
This house will come alive again.
Have a good weekend.
Karona
Divorced 12/17/2003
Formerly KEB1205 Reg 9/02
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