had a long talk with WH tonight on the phone. I told him I love him and I miss him. I ask if he misses me, he says yes he does. I ask if he's given any thought to moving back in the house while we try to sort things out. Again he says yes, and he's going to continue to wait until we see the MC to see "how that goes."

He says we can still do things together "as friends" (in fact, he would like to) but he doesn't want to confuse the situation. That he does not want to hurt me. He says I'm a great person, blah blah blah. Says he loves me but not in "that way".

I ask him if I'm a fool to keep believing in us? He says, "you're not a fool." (he loves to play word games, but I could be reading more into that..don't know) I ask him if I should just give up? Long pause before answer then he says, "let's just see what the MC says."

He says he told me he's not going to MC to try and work on our marriage but to see what he says and if he'll help him. Ok, I'll do my best to not look at the reason he's going but instead at the outcome (we haven't gone yet, I've been putting that off to see if WH would start to come to a decision to work on it first).

How can we be friends, flirt the way we do, even enjoy some SF, yet not remain married? I don't get it. What am I missing here?

Well - Your WH is the same as mine. I've heard that cr*p from him for 2 and a half years.

Here is a translation - He misses you, but would like to continue with the OW. He would also like to be friends with you, and still keep OW - his priority is keeping her. If you are willing to accept that, he will be friends with you.

He doesn't want to confuse you - he wants the OW. As long as you understand that, things will be fine.

If he is still seeing an OW, why are you going to marriage counseling? This is a colossal waste of money and time. You might as well "burn" the money and go to sleep. Please realize this. Just going to MC will not "change" anything or turn the feelings back on for him. I fear that you may be setting yourself up for a big dissapointment here.

LM

My WH is full of those long pauses. They are very annoying. Keep in mind that he is trying to manipulate the conversation with the pauses....he's hoping that you'll jump in and start talking again while he's quiet. But you have to wait him out. Sorry...sore subject for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

"How can we be friends, flirt the way we do, even enjoy some SF, yet not remain married? I don't get it. What am I missing here?"

I concur w/ Believer. He's wanting the cake & eating it too.

As for MC, I agree w/ LM. While he's still in the A, MC is of no use. Trust me, I've been there, done that myself. It wasn't until I completely dumped the OM and decided to that I WANTED to make my M work that MC actually started to sink in and help. You've heard it before: "you can lead the horse to the water, but you can't make it drink." I strongly suggest you start familiarizing yourself with the materials on this website re: Infidelity. I agree w/ your sig line - Start thinking about Plan B! Although every situation is different, this is what lit the fire under me to get me to turn around. Believe me, if Plan B can work on a stubborn mule like me, it can work on just about anyone!

Good luck,

Yes, I see it now, plain and clear. I guess I didn't want to earlier.

I confronted him about still talking to her outside of work re: non-professionally and he told me that yes, they still talk. Not about us though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> No kidding. He says that they are becoming good friends. This is the same person he told me he had fallen in love with. NOW they are becoming good friends <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. I am supposed to just accept that?!

What bothers me the most is, I still am having a very difficult time determining what EN of his were not met. Maybe I'm just not looking at myself hard enough, but also he's not talking. He continues to tell me it's that he never loved me and that he tried learn to love me but he can't in the way I deserve to be. I can guess at what needs weren't being met, but is that the right thing to do?

How can I effectively work Plan A when I'm grasping in the dark?

Also, I've been reading up on Plan B more. I feel like I should give Plan A a little more time so I can, as Dr. Harley puts it, leave him with a feeling of "absense makes the heart grow stronger." I really do wonder if he'd reveal to the MC what EN were not being met?

I am still trying to make a decision to expose - How did you do it? Was it terribly scary & hard?

My WH is sitting on the fence too. Can't agree to NC.

Kim
D-Day May 14th
DS - age 5
Married 13 years

Stop, you should confront him about ANY contact. If they are in contact, the affair is still on. He can call it "professional" or a baloney sandwich, contact is contact. Contact=affair. Any contact at all prevents withdrawal from the affair.

This is why Harley is ADAMANT that a WS must never ever see the OP again, even if they have to move to another state. Not at work, not at church, not "professionaly." [which is a ruse anyway] And no, they can't be "friends," they are beyond that. So don't accept any of those nutty rationalizations.

I would add, though, that your H has not ended the affair. He is lying about that. And since he is still in an affair, MC is a complete waste of time.

STWP,

I have to agree with the others here. Perhaps even to more of an extreme. MC is for couples committed to recovery. MC with a WS still in contact with the OP is not only a waste of money, it can potentially do more harm than good and alienate your spouse from the option of future counselling when they are actually marriage affirmative.

Invest your money in idividual counselling, confronting your own personal demons, and becoming the best person and the most desirable spouse you can. This is the essence of a good Plan A. It is in reality totally autarkic from your WS's participation. It's like becoming a water-repellant duck. When it rains, you just go under the dark waters...or once you are stronger, let the sun shine.

Exposing was hard. It was difficult to tell the people, everyone I spoke with were pro-marriage, anti-affair, most were supportive and so sorry that it was happening. The only thing I got that I didn't expect, but I probably should have was, nearly no one actually kept their word and did what they said they would do. I realize the point was to expose and *NOT* get them to do anything for me or my marriage, but each of them did what ultimately they felt was right for them.

Also, it does get around that you dared to talk. Dealing with WH anger was probably harder because it was so full of little daggers.

So, yes, it was hard. I don't regret making the decision to expose.

How can I begin to learn about the EN of my WH if he won't tell me? What can a BS do to find these out?

I thought it was SF, but when we talked last night I asked him if our problems had anything to with that and he said no. I told him I was sorry and that I understood that especially in the past few months I've been unreceptive. (of course, he hasn't exactly tried either but I didn't bring that up) Then we flirted some and laughed a bit.

Any help in trying discover his EN's would be greatly appreciated.

Will he take the EN questionnaire with you?

Either way, try not to beat yourself up over this. Unmet emotional needs are not always the cause of an affair. Your WH sounds like one of those guys whose "unmet EN" consists of wanting to have more than one woman in his life. That's not something you can supply for him.

If this is the case, this is a character issue on his part. If he's just not interested in monogamy, there is no amount of sex or attention from you that's going change his mind. In fact, it will only feed his fantasy that yes, he CAN have two or more women in his life, and lookie, his wife will give him even MORE sex and attention if he tries!

Keep reading up on Plan B. Nothing else gets through to a man who honestly thinks having a harem is a normal healthy way to live.
Mulan

I have shown him the EN questionaire that I filled out. Though it was on D-Day, neither of us were very receptive to much then. I have emailed it to him and asked him to look at it and fill it out. To my knowledge he hasn't.

Quite honestly, Plan B scares the hell out of me. I know the logic behind it, I understand it, and I'm terrified of what may happen. I know I can't control him, but I guess somewhere deep inside I still feel like I can single-handedly save our marriage. I am afraid I won't be able to do it too. I told him last Friday not to call me for a week, but that didn't even last one day. He called me the next day because I had received some nasty anonymous phone calls in the middle of the night that I told him about. We've talked nearly every day since.

I read posts like the one from Joanna32 and I'm so envious of her found strength and peace. Of course I'm happy that she has it, don't get me wrong.

I've been reading up on different types of affairs. One of the types this particular author describes is an 'exit affair'. Essentially, it's an affair that the WS has to end the marriage to force the BS make the choice instead of the WS. So it's not the WS fault they got the D, after all, they weren't the one to get it.

In my professional life I'm a very logical and analytical person. Outside of that I'm quite creative and romantic. Right now, I feel like I'm fooling myself and it hurts. I'm mad at me. Does that make any sense?

Hi there,

I've also worried that my WH's affair was an exit affair.

I don't think that now - he is 'in love' with his OW, and hadn't really intended to leave me before he had the affair (I don't think!)

The way to deal with an exit affair is... don't give them the divorce!

That'll show 'em... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Alph.

I appreciate that Alphin, seriously. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But in reality, that takes money and you really can't force anyone to stay married to you if they don't want to be. (and why would you if it was truly at that point?)

So if you don't think it was your WH's plan on leaving, and he has, what role do you think you've played in that? Do you think it's been for the best? What makes you think your WH's A was not an 'exit affair' now? What changed? Not judging!! Just curious.

Did I offend you Alphin? I am truly sorry if that is the case.

So if it is an exit affair and you don't give them the divorce, won't WS continue to act this way, thus causing more pain for the BS?

"NOW they are becoming good friends . I am supposed to just accept that?!"

>No contact means just that ... NO CONTACT. Do not let this sleeping dog lie. Confront and expose him/them. BTW - have you written/spoken to the OW to let her know you know? Note: Exposure is more than you WH, it's the OW too. I think had my H exposed me and my OM, I would've been humiliated and ticked, but the A would've been very short lived.

"What bothers me the most is, I still am having a very difficult time determining what EN of his were not met."

>Unfortunately, so long as he's still in the A (and in the fog), your attempts at meeting his EN are somewhat futile. It's like MC. He's going to have to want to be receptive, and while he's in the fog, he really can't be. The best thing to do in Plan A is just do whatever you can to be nice, loving, supportive and above all things, no LB's.

"He continues to tell me it's that he never loved me and that he tried learn to love me but he can't in the way I deserve to be."

>This is fog-babble. I did this too. Again, so long as he's in the A and in the fog, he will continue to say and do these very hurtful things b/c he's trying to justify in his own head for his A. Meaning, what he's telling himself is 'if I don't go back to her, it's really for her own good and NOT for my selfish gains b/c she deserves better.' As we say it in TX, it's all hog-wash.

"How can I begin to learn about the EN of my WH if he won't tell me? What can a BS do to find these out?"

>You may want to read His Needs, Her Needs by Harley. It tells you what a typical man's top EN's are. Again, w/ Plan A, you'll just have to do the best you can and know that some of your loving acts will stick. That, I can assure you.

"Plan B scares the hell out of me. I know the logic behind it, I understand it, and I'm terrified of what may happen."

>STWP, Please read some of my more recent posts. I think they'll give you confidence in what a good Plan B can yield.

"I told him last Friday not to call me for a week, but that didn't even last one day."

>When you're truly in Plan B, you'll have to screen your calls somehow. If you don't have caller ID, you may have to resort to not answering your phones and letting the voicemail/answering machine pick up. Keep in mind, a good Plan B means no contact, no support from you. YOU must be in control, not him. You must be strong.

"One of the types this particular author describes is an 'exit affair'. Essentially, it's an affair that the WS has to end the marriage to force the BS make the choice instead of the WS."

>Frankly, this (meaning, hoping/forcing the BS will make the decision of a D) seem to happen much more often than not, regardless the type of A. My A was not the textbook version of an exit affair, but most WS, like me, have a very hard time filing a D - partly b/c we're chicken [censored], and partly b/c we're secretly hoping that if the BS filed the D, then we both share the blame. This is one of the most cowardly acts a WS can do. Luckily, my H refused to do it. As part of his version of Plan B, he actually asked me about it almost on a daily basis. Boy, did that light a fire under my rear!!!

"Right now, I feel like I'm fooling myself and it hurts. I'm mad at me. Does that make any sense?"

>I know this is one of the touchest (if not the toughest) thing you'll have to endure, but you've GOT to get a hold of yourself and know that you're doing the right thing ... for YOU! If you ever need some confidence builder, read my posts or Suzet's earlier posts. There are a ton of us who survived the A and are having a better M, even before the A!

Hang in there, and keep posting. We'll be here for you!