I have a question for all of you. She is involved with a co-worker, and she's filled out her ENQ for me. I've studied it, but I'm confused about how to execute Plan A and continue to practice the policy of radical honesty. For me to meet her emotional needs, I need to be supportive and specifically avoid being the source of any pain or discomfort for her. How can I do this and continue to be completely honest about my feelings regarding her continued involvement with OM? She has expressed to me that any display of discomfort on my part is interpreted as disapproval (judgement) or outright non-acceptance of her as a person. Should I experience my pain in isolation? Am I supposed to refrain from radical honesty if it's going to violate plan A? HELP!
Specifically here's what's going on to prompt my confusion. WS and I are going to a company function of hers, where OM and OM's brother (who WS has had an EA with in the past) are going to be at. I am NOT enthusiastic about being there if I'm going to be in contact with these two, especailly the current OM. I tried to express to WS that I would like to negotiate regarding the event, as I would love to attend with her, but I am averse to contact with OM and OM's brother. This did not go well. I realize that Plan A pretty much centers around ignoring my Taker, and indulging her EN's as much as possible. What should I do about this upcoming event?

I've given up hoping that the PA/EA she's in with OM is going to just fizzle out, I'm concerned that she's already condemned me and D is eventually inevitable. But I am still hoping that Plan A works... I just want to make sure I'm doing things right.

Hi CT

I found PORH essential to my plan A. PORH isn;t 'SHOUTING THE TRUTH' all the time, its being truthful and not lying.

When I was hurt I would tell Squid I was hurt and why.

Affairs are fuelled by fear and lies. They can only be broken up by truth and bravery IME.

Its your JOB to etsblish a boundary of NC for your WW as part of Plan A. Some things are "lovebusters" for sure, without being harley "lovebusters".

Harley 'LBs' are Disrespectful judgments, emotional outbursts, annoying habits etc.

Telling a lying WS that their lying is making you sad and reconsider your commitment to rebuilding ( delivered respectfully) may make WS angry and sad, but is a required part of plan A, NOT a lovebuster.

Exposure is usually the ultimate lovebuster, but is essential to Plan A.

Be truthful, set personal boundaries, and expose teh affair ASAP.

Thats the way to start damaging your WW affair.

All blessings.

This is hard but you can do it !

CT,

First of all, welcome to MB!

I wish I had found this site as early as you have. Getting a wayward spouse to be open to filling out the ENQ would be considered quite a success for many of us here. This is a sign that your WS does not want to give up the marriage.

I can fully sympathize with the problem of combining radical honesty with Plan A. When you are feeling destroyed and betrayed in the depths of your very being, depressed, angy... how do you express this without disrespectful judgements and angry outburts? How can you act positive, charasmatic, and charming when you feel like lashing out at the unfairness of it all?

Distance is necessary. Some BS are able to build a cocoon and distance themselves emotionally while still being confronted on a daily basis with a WS that continues contact to OP. That seems a herculean feat to me, and one I was not capable of. It was first with physical separation with WS that I was able to begin my road to self recovery which now includes a stellar, but separated Plan A.

Only now can I voice my boundaries firmly, but kindly, without anger and with respect.

Read everything you can on this site. Please read the link in my signature about Plan A. Read about the pluses and minuses of exposure. It's time to pack out the big guns: all your most positive attributes to the 10th degree plus targeted A exposure to all those who would be interested in breaking up the A. Affairs thrive on lies and secrecy. A good marriage thrives on openess and honesty.

Pace yourself. This is a long distance run, not a sprint.

As to the situation with OM and OM's brother (with whom WS had an EA?). Definitely go to this function with her! Spoil her with attention, even buy her a new dress for the occasion! My gosh, you know what her ENs are. Open the car door, the house door... make her feel special instead of making her feel your jealousy towards those two scummy men.

You are the better man. Take the high road!

For me to meet her emotional needs, I need to be supportive and specifically avoid being the source of any pain or discomfort for her.

Plan a is now nor never about being supportive of an affair..plan a involve strict boundaries on your part in which you speak your pain of contact clearly without demonstrative emotional loss of control...but you speak each and every time you have the chance...

the return babble of your dislike of her affair is equal to judging her is ridiculous scripted verbage in an attempt to deflect the REALITY of her actions...

speak your pain..
speak it visually...
go buy a dozen of those little corn holders to hold corn on the cob....lay them on the counter and tell her you got her those and that instead of continueing to have contact with her boyfriend....it would be kinder of her to take one of these and thrust them in to your back...for atleast that would offer physical release of the pain her contact causes...then walk away....

expand you language more outwardly..
that this has nothing to do with this specific married man...he is irrelevant in the sense that you are not interested in being part of triangle....

that your vision is of a marriage that is of great value to you and her and excludes ALL interlopers....

not personal
these are your facts
these are your boundaries...

where OM and OM's brother (who WS has had an EA with in the past) are going to be at.

so this is your wife's second affair...any more
these two with brothers...yikes and she's worried about how you see her..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

how did the first one end

where are you in exposing her affair to people especially those in the work place...exposure can be part of plan a and should be heavily considered inspite of her reaction...

realize that Plan A pretty much centers around ignoring my Taker, and indulging her EN's as much as possible.

again plan A is NOT about indulging anything that assists the affair.....

should you go to the company event..
ofcourse you should...
and you should tell both men to stay away from your wife...

I will bump up a how to plan A post for ya

ARK

Ark is right, you should not withhold any discussion about your pain and you should not attend any function with the OM. That is tantamount to giving your express approval. You should let her know that you disapprove and how much it hurts you that she is going.

CT, this is how I see your current strategy: the Titanic is going down and you are worried about what color to paint the upper deck bathrooms. See, you are trying to practice MB principles that are only relevent to the recovery stage and do nothing to end the affair.

For example, the policy of radical honesty is to be used in the recovery stage. It can actually be harmful when the WS is still in an affair because it undermines your ability to hasten the end of the affair. That doesn't mean, though, that you shouldn't tell her how much her affair is hurting you. Being honest about that contributes to her discomfort and that is a good thing. On the other hand, if you need to put some spyware on her computer, radical honesty will ruin your objective.

Marriage Builders principles are very important, but it is even more important to apply some common sense and use the principles in a proper context.

For now, you should be doing everything in your power to hasten the end of this affair, such as exposure and making her affair as uncomfortable as possible.

Additionally, if this is her second affair, I think you may have much more serious problems here than a routine marital problem. Does she even believe in fidelity in the first place? Is her affair an aberration of character or is it a way of life? Because if it the latter, Marriage Builders principles will be a waste of time. MB is not equipped to resolve a character problem, but a marital problem.

lol I see I misread Ark's advice to go to the function and confront the OM. That could be interesting!

thanks so much for your clarifications! I was assuming it would be necessary for me to hide my pain, but I think now I realize that hiding it is akin to tacit approval of the affair. That is NOT my goal for certain. I really want to motivate her to end the affair asap, but she is very sensitive to LB's and anything negatively affecting her so I'm very skittish about doing anything that could even possibly lead to conflict or pain.
as far as exposure and making her uncomfortable with her affair, how far should i go with exposing it? her family, her coworkers, her OM's brother (who is certain to be jealous himself and cause all kinds of crap with the OM because of it). I don't want to use exposure as a weapon against HER specifically, but I dont mind using it to exploit any inherent weakness in the affair itself. Advice?
I will endeavor to be truthful about my pain and discomfort without letting any LB's come into play. That sounds like very solid advice and thank you very much for that.

And yeah, this absolutely sucks, but I know I can do it. At least for now :-)

I felt compelled to write more:
Lost- you ROCK. I TOTALLY am the better man... those two are full on scavenging bottom feeders who have met my KIDS and shaken my hand while they tried, and in one case succeeded, in having sex with my wife. How low can you get?? YET, I CAN be a gentleman, I CAN take the high road, and I DO know her ENs so I have a much better picture of how to combat the underlying causes of her affairs. She's still very loving towards me in many ways, and she's still happy to receive her ENs from me, so I think now I will try very hard to voice my boundaries and discuss my pain with respect and love rather than competition and resentment. And I can still do that and stick to my Plan A. THANK YOU!

Ark- Scary you should say to present her with corn stickers and voice my desire to be physically stabbed rather than lied to and betrayed... I have a history of self injury during times of extreme stress, so that would be quite the gesture, as she knows I would rather be hurt physically (and will do so myself just to achieve release) rather than suffer emotionally without the ability to address or express it. However, I would like to be able to make whatever gestures of love that I can to her without giving her the idea that i approve of her actions, so I think I will express my pain... but if i do so in a way that makes her upset, i am sure she'll go to OM for comfort instead of wanting to work out those things with me.
Melody- I agree that making her uncomfortable with her affair is a great objective, but I know at this point that she will not view the affair as the source of discomfort, rather she will blame ME for making it difficult to continue. This has been a real puzzle for me, as I dont know how to encourage her to end it without making myself into an enemy. This is her 3rd affair, and I'm truly certain that the first was because of a character flaw (we were very new, and engaging in a long distance relationship while she was in school, she got "lonely" because she said she doesn't like to be alone, and had a brief fling with a classmate until she and I could be reunited). She has since done a lot of work to correct that in herself, which I am very proud of her for. The other 2 are the EA with OM's brother, and the current EA/PA with OM. The catalyst in these two cases, I must admit, was my own neglect of her stated ENs for a long time, and although I take no responsibility for her actions, I realize I did contribute to their causes. One thing I am suspicious of is that since these 2 are brothers, they use the same techniques to select and court their chosen lovers... and I'm convinced that they learned the same ways to garner the attention of my wife, which also convinces me she has a specific vulnerability to whatever it is that these 2 have learned to provide. My impression of them is that they are verbal players, giving her all the flattery and b.s. she needs, and she just eats it up. If my marriage is subject to this kind of thing, where all it will take for me to be relegated to second best despite my best efforts to meet her ENs, then perhaps she would be happier being with a lying, cheating, player like these 2. If that's what she wants, eventually she'll leave me and get it, or I'll leave her and let her have that and ONLY that. (plan b anyone?)
I think I will go with her to the event, I will NOT confront those 2 a-holes, but I will make it clear to her that I will not tolerate being put into a situation where i am exposed to them other than casual and brief contact.

card...

you need to buckle down...and FIRST.,...decide that you are going to do plan A....

I read your other post where you thought you were in crisis...because you asked for no contact and she said no...

that is actually good news...more trouble and more woes comes to the betrayed spouse who asks for no contact and is told OK ...only for the affair to go more underground...and the lies to just pile up...

also great woe to BS who gets a WS that quits contact only NOT because they value fidelity but because they want to play the victim...of being controlled and told what to do by big old mean old spousey...
that's not you
and it's not going to be you..

you are going to be charming in control man...who sees enough value in yourself and your spouse to be on a steady course that sets your life in motion that you will either reach a point where your spouse values YOU.....and your sanctity...or does not...but woe to your WS when you reach that point that her untolerable behavior truly is untolerable....and you walk away.....


you need to decide if you are going to plan A...
you need to realize that plan A is ALL and I mean ALL about expecting continued contact....so NO point in powerstruggling that one...

plan a is all about you being the better man...
with clear boundaries...

the self disrespect that occurs between the affair people is a reality...they own actions are loathesome...and they KNOW it...so they turn and cling to eachother because it is the only place that is free NOT of judgement...but of the reality of their actions....

so if you choose plan A..then you also need to pick the date for plan B and prepare for that...

the day when you say
I value myself
I value YOU dear wife...too much to spend one more second of my life...or your life....in this triangle of chaos...

read bob pures plan A walk...I implore you..

you are way way way to concerned about her reaction and knee jerk (and I do say scripted) rebuttals of blaming you and defense...

like water off a duck should those become...

and you should hold no fear of those...for NONE of those are your creation but are from her own actions....

did you read the plan A post I bumped for you..

ARK

CT,

This a big clue and a HUGE release of baggage and empowerment that make a good, solid Plan A possible. Read the thread that arkie posted; it's one of the very best.

Accepting and assuming that WS's contact with OP is ongoing releases you of hyper-vigilence and trying to control WS's actions and feelings. It is up to WS to prove to you that NC is established and take measures to regain your trust. It is up to you to become a better person, a better spouse, and correct your own behaviour that enabled the A.

You're on a good road. It'sa long one. Hang in there!

I think you and I are in the same boat CT. I am learning along with you how plan A is done. I am already seeing some results, but it is a verrrrry long road ahead. I hope we can help each other through this. You are saying a lot of what I am feeling.

Early in this plan A, I let her take our kids to the park to play with OM's kid and OM. I acted like it didn't bother me much, even though it was killing me. Now that I have learned much from this board, I would say in a calm voice, "You can go to the park. It will cause me a lot of pain that you continue to see him, but I will not let the kids go with you. I do not want them exposed to that kind of behavior and will not allow them to be used in that way."

The boundaries of plan A are subtle and difficult for me to grasp, but the people on this board are helpful in drawing lines where they need to be drawn.

Early in this plan A, I let her take our kids to the park to play with OM's kid and OM. I acted like it didn't bother me much, even though it was killing me. Now that I have learned much from this board, I would say in a calm voice, "You can go to the park. It will cause me a lot of pain that you continue to see him, but I will not let the kids go with you. I do not want them exposed to that kind of behavior and will not allow them to be used in that way."

balls out dead on spot exact thing to say....!!!!!!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

very cool...

ARK

Yay... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Feels good to at least have a plan. And gaining the knowledge to execute it.

ark
sorry I didnt know what "bump" meant so I initially missed your bump for me. I have read Bob Pure's Plan A post, and have learned a lot from it... this is going to really be hard, but what's cool about it is either she comes back to me and I am happy, or we find out she WON'T come back to me, and I've taken steps to improve and grow in the meantime, and I will be better prepared to begin my new life without her, so I'll be happy. Either way I will have some sort of reward.
I have another q for you all about exposure, but I will post that in a new thread.
Thanks again for all your advice, pointers, resources, etc.. and Ark, you don't deal any bulls**t do you!? I dig that about you. Keep giving it to me full strength and straight up, man... that's SO what I need right now