My husband was VERY testy on Sunday, he said it was due to a headache, but he had gone to see his son in drug rehab, so I figured he was probably stressed out from that. Monday morning he was very quiet, didn't have much to say, then he left for work. I stopped by his work after I got off to see if he needed anything, he still seemed all stressed out, but wanted me to get him cigarettes, so I did. I asked him what he wanted for dinner...he said "I don't know......it doesn't matter....I don't care". So I said "Okay, do you want me to make a couple of those Boboli pizzas?" He said "That's fine".

So he calls me about 8pm and asks me to put mild peppers on his pizza, I said that I would. He gets home from work and he still seems all stressed out, and that he still has a headache. I gave him some advil. He says it's a stress headache, so I said "After the kids go to bed I'll give you a back rub." He says Okay.

So the kids go to bed, I get some lotion and go in the bedroom. He follows me in there and lays down on his side. I said "You're gonna have to lay on your stomach" He said "No.....we need to talk." I said "Okay, what do we need to talk about?" He said "Caren, this isn't working out.....I'm still not happy" I said "Well, I'm sorry that you're not happy" He said "We tried" I said "No, actually, I tried, you haven't even been meeting me 1/2 way."

Now his complaint is because I'm not making very much money waitressing. I have applications in everywhere...but it's true, I'm not making very much.

I said "What, am I just the ATM machine to you?" He said "ATM Machine?!?! You don't have any money."....I said "Yes, I know, that's what I'm saying....since the ATM is out of money, you want to cancel your account"

He started to say things had gone back to the way they were before.......which is [censored], so he stopped mid-sentence.

I said "Well, I will NOT be moving out" He said "WHAT?!" I said "I'm not moving out" He said "What do you mean you're not moving out?" I said "I'm not moving out again, I'm sorry you're not happy, I guess we're gonna have to try harder"

Then we started talking, I mentioned OW, (I mentioned in a previous post, her car is NEVER at her work anymore) and I asked if she had a new car, he said "Not that I know of, I dunno, I don't see her very often" I discussed how I thought he was depressed, and that he was going through withdrawl from her, he said "NO, it has nothing to do with that, that's over" and that he is not depressed. I said "Oh I think you are, and you won't even entertain the idea of getting on anti-D's"

I told him that if we separate again, I there'll be no suicidal thoughts, I won't be crying and begging him to come back to me, and I definitely WILL NOT be waiting around for his butt.

I said "I am fully capable of finding someone else, I hope you know that" I said "Is that what you want?" He didn't answer. I believe he was under the impression that since he wasn't *happy* that I'd cheerfully move out and be his "girlfriend" like it was before........NOT HAPPENING.

I asked him a few more times if he wanted me to move out, he said "I don't know what I want"

We talked, I asked him every pent up question regarding the OW that I could think of and he answered them all.

I told him that the affair was complete crap, and that he didn't seem to care that he'd caused me all this pain, that he just kept twisting the knife.

I said "Now we have 2 choices here....we are either going to actively work on this marriage or we're going our separate ways"

***If he chose the latter, I would be in hardline Plan B indefinitely.

He said "Let's talk more about this tommorrow night......." (That'd be tonight) I said "So, what you expect me to just hang out in limbo?" He said "Caren let's just talk about this tommorrow night" I said "I'm sorry that you find me so difficult to love". He said "I do love you, Caren"
(Funny F*cking way of showing it, eh?)

So this morning I got up, took a shower, got ready for work, he got up too, I didn't say anything to him, just continued getting ready. Then I kissed DD10 and said I was leaving, I kissed him on the cheek and said "Have a good day" and left.

DD10 was standing at the door when I was pulling out of the driveway, so I stopped, and she said "Bye Mommy, I love you, be careful" and blew me a kiss. So I told her I loved her too, and to tell Daddy to come to the door....he came to the door, and I said "Your shorts are in the dryer, and it's supposed to be 90 today, you may want to turn the air on" He said "Oh, it's supposed to be 90? Okay I'll turn the air on". Then I left.

I stopped by his work to see if he needed anything, he said "Ummm I don't know, I haven't eaten anything today" I offered to get him some subway, and I gave him my paycheck (A whopping $33 dollars) to deposit in his account.

He just called to ask what we were having for dinner. I haven't said anything else about talking this evening, I said "I'm not hungry, is grilled cheese okay?" He said "Yeah that's fine.......Ooooo do you think bologna would be good with that?" I said "I dunno, is that what you want?" He said "Yeah try that" and then proceeded to go on and on about how to make them.

He no longer sounds all stressed out and depressed, and he's being pretty cordial.

I guess I need advice as to how to proceed. I am going to approach this as he doesn't want to split up, and implement plans for actual recovery steps....can someone help me out???

-Caren

Alright, I am jumping in the shower and running to the grocery store....I hope someone has some kind of advice on how to proceed, I always do so badly on my own.

-Caren

Caren,

Sounds like he got his answer..

"Well, I will NOT be moving out" He said "WHAT?!" I said "I'm not moving out" He said "What do you mean you're not moving out?" I said "I'm not moving out again, I'm sorry you're not happy, I guess we're gonna have to try harder"

Then he brought up the VERY LAME lack of money making on your part.

That should not be a complaint directed at YOU, but at life in general.

I think he then went into confrontation avoidance mode after you laid it out to him... ""I am fully capable of finding someone else, I hope you know that" I said "Is that what you want?" He didn't answer. I believe he was under the impression that since he wasn't *happy* that I'd cheerfully move out and be his "girlfriend" like it was before........NOT HAPPENING.

So he said "Let's talk more about this tommorrow night......."

So he will need the whole day to come up with some other complaints...or he may just keep his mouth shut. I bet it is the latter.

Just wondering...why can't you stay home and cheerfully be his "girlfriend"?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Admitting I do not know your whole saga.

k

I admit I do not know your whole saga

Sorry I missed your post before - Caren just be calm. Maybe his son bding in rehab got to him as well as finances. Realx and stay cool and calm.

I am staying relatively cool and calm. I just don't know where to go from here....thinking that I'll print out the EN questionnaire for starters, what else? The POJA? He never filled an EN out for me before, and I'm sure he has no clue as to MY EN's.

If we're staying in this we are WORKING on this.

As to staying at home and cheerfully being his *girlfriend*...I have been bending over backwards trying to do just that....I'm still dressing sexy, catering to him....etc, etc.

-Caren

Hi Caren!

Just wanna throw this out there...

Could it be that he -- with or without depression -- feels guilty/unworthy/down on himself... it almost sounded like he was/is feeling "not good enough" and needs reassurance from you that he IS loved and appreciated, etc... and that it CAN work...

Not well said... but do you understand what I'm trying to say?

((((( Caren )))))

Giving you back a hug that you so kindly gave to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have no advice to give to you, sweetie. I, too, or more so, do not do good on my own. I know that I could do it, but somehow I let my pathetic emotions run my head.

I, personanly, think you will be just fine. I think you are terrific !!!

Car

Keep it up Caren, sounds like you are right on cue!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Caren,

This will be par for the course for awhile. The key to this is to not go nuclear. Dont discuss moving out. Dont ask him if he wants you to move out. Stop that. Every time you two bring things like that up, you take the marriage to the edge again.

In recovery, it is baby steps. And some days...some weeks...it just doesnt look like you are moving anywhere. But you are.

Look, you had that discussion...and it ended well. Why do I say that? Well, no physical or verbal abuse. Nobody stormed out and threatened divorce. No drama. That is progress!!

All of the people that have been thru recovery have said that after the intial "honeymoon" period, things actually get worse for awhile because it seems like things are headed back the way they were. And the WS is scared for that to happen.

Look, things were bad enough that they went out and committed adultery. They already feel guilty for that. Added to that, now they are scared that things will be the same...and they will either be trapped in a bad marriage...or they might go out and cheat again. It is not a very good place to be. This is why I tell people who are BSs not to have that revenge affair because you do not want all of those feelings that a WS has.

Caren, the watch phrase is "slow and steady." No raising of voices. No talk of leaving. No talk of divorce. If the OW is gone (and you need to get that car out of there so there is NO connection), then you need to stop talking about her. If there are issues you need addressed on that, then MC should be the only place to bring those things up. Your home needs to be a safe place for the two of you not to be beating each other up with the past. How in the world will either of you be the spouses that the other wants if you are tearing each other down or flinging the past back on them?

So, just take it easy. You MUST stay positive. He will be the "glass half empty" guy. You will have to be the "glass half full" gal.

In His arms.

One of the more important conversations I had during recovery with FWH was when I asked about the four rules of M (let me see if I can remember them all...)
Time
Honesty
Protection
Care

(Do I have that right?)

What I asked FWH happened over MANY conversations...where I asked him what he could do to help me feel protected, or help offer more time, or help me feel cared for, or help be more honest (the last one was a tough one for us, and one we're still working on). It was ALWAYS a two part conversation where suggestions were brought up how we BOTH could show more care or time, etc. to the other. I would ask him how I could protect him more.

It's funny, but it seems we have to protect our S more from ourselves than from anything else...

Caren...

well since you asked for OPINIONS here's mine...

I would really like to see you step back a little further...and try really really hard to take a long hard look at YOUR communication style...and see where you can make changes that serve the bigger picture of your marriage and one another better....

you two are still so entangled in the defensive...that that's pretty much all this conversation is....

defense defense defense...

nothing gets resolved because no one is interested in a recovery plan..it's all just verbal banter...

try caren..try to start thinking outside the box...and try to see where you can change your language...and first you have to decide if you truly are interested in a language of love with your spouse....OR if you are a path of winning and having him at no cost...just so no one else does..you gotta search that answer long and hard...

He said "We tried" I said "No, actually, I tried, you haven't even been meeting me 1/2 way."

can you think of other ways to word that??
can you think of a different time to say that??

You totally shut down listening and immediately turned all on him....

tell me why you aren't happy
tell me what you are unhappy about.

listen to him
engage him
hear him..

I mentioned OW,

think long and hard before YOU speak of her again...


I told him that the affair was complete crap, and that he didn't seem to care that he'd caused me all this pain, that he just kept twisting the knife.

If you believe this..why are you with him...where do you see value in him...and where do you communicate....

how do these put downs help anything....
solve anything...

you two have no basic communication rules...anything and everything goes...

you need to start with basic rules...that you both agree on

We talked, I asked him every pent up question regarding the OW that I could think of and he answered them all.

did you thank him profusely for this gift...did you show him the value of his honesty...what a true gift it is...did you...

So, what you expect me to just hang out in limbo?" He said "Caren let's just talk about this tommorrow night" I said "I'm sorry that you find me so difficult to love". He said "I do love you, Caren"

there's that theme again...love me...love you..if you love me ..I will love you....the do you love me powerstruggle you two so enjoy..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I said "I am fully capable of finding someone else, I hope you know that" I said "Is that what you want?"

every human being on this planet if fully capable of this...what is the point....

before you even discuss a recovery plan..you better establish better communication techniques....or you two will just powerstruggle this marriage to death....

ARK

How right you are Ark. It's so much verbal diarrhea for me....when I was typing it....I could tell where the LB's and DJ's were, but when they're coming out of my mouth...not so much. I have trouble getting out what I'm feeling without it sounding like I think he's an A-hole, or being disrespectful.

I talked to him last night and asked if he was interested in working this out, he said yes, everything seemed okay, we had SF, then went to sleep. Then this morning....it all comes undone again.

He deems me responsible for all the utilities, and food, he pays rent. Well, today the electric company dude was at my door at 9:30 AM with a shut off notice. He flipped out completely. (I have always had a problem paying the bills, I try....but ya know I only have so much money, and that is apparently a huge one of his EN's) He starts telling me "Caren just forget about it" I said "Forget about what?" He said "We're not working anything out, I'm not living like this" (Meaning shut off threats on the horizon). I said "I don't understand how you paid all these bills on what you make before I moved in......how did you do it?" He said "I paid them as soon as I got them" I said "But how? We never have any money left" He said "Caren, I would have 20 or 30 dollars left for the week" (Well that's not gonna fly, I can't feed all of us and put gas in the car on 30 dollars a week). He was going ballistic and telling me that he doesn't want to work it out anymore. And again, we're back to square one, of him wanting me to move out.....UGH!!!!!!!! I said "Listen to me, we are your family, we are NOT moving out" He said "Oh I think you will" I said "There is no judge in the world that is going to say it's okay for you to put your wife and kids out" He said "Only my name is on the lease" I said "I really don't think that matters, I think it matters that this is my residence" I said "Why does it always have to be this way? Why is that the first conclusion you jump to? That it's over.....over the ELECTRIC BILL" I said "I will go and borrow the money from my Mom and pay it right now" He said "No....don't worry about it, I'll get an advance, I don't want you paying anything" I said "Well I'm going to, I'm leaving right now to pay it" He said "No, save your money" (Cuz I'm apparently going to need it for somewhere else to live) he also said he was going to give me back the $33 dollar paycheck I gave him to deposit yesterday. I told him no, to keep it.

So I left, went to my Mom's, asked her if she could put my electric bill on her credit card and I'd pay her 80 dollars tommorrow. She agreed, so I got it paid, avoided shut off, and called him to tell him I'd paid it. He said "Okay" I said "Well that's all I wanted, talk to you later".

After work, (Which was hard as heck, because I was so distracted) I went by my Mom's and got the kids and then stopped and bought him some cigarettes, and had DD10 run them into his store. He came out, and I said "Did you need cigarettes?" He said "Yeah" I said "Do you need money for lunch?" He said "No" I said "Okay, I'll talk to you later" He said "Okay".

So that's where things stand right now, I don't know what tonight will bring, but I'm not moving.

It made sense what Mortar said, it does appear that he's afraid things are reverting back, but DANG IT, it's the first time it's happened, and I'm going to bust my butt to make sure it doesn't happen again.....it's unrealistic to expect me to be able to pay all these bills myself, but I guess I'll try.....Arrrrrgh I wish some of the applications I have out would call me back.

I have a REALLY hard time not immediately thinking of the OW when this crap happens, and I had been holding in all my OW questions, and then I unloaded them all that night....No, it never occurred to me to tell him thank you, I suppose it should have, but it's hard when I'm being slapped in the face with him not wanting to work it out over and over and over again.

I can't fight this battle alone, I can't stand that it comes to this every freakin time anything goes wrong.....*I had a bad day....I don't wanna work it out* *You didn't pay the electric bill on time, I don't wanna work it out* *The sky is blue...I'm not happy* *The sky is grey...I don't wanna work it out*

AAAAAAAAARrrrrrrrrrgh,

-Caren

TA-
It may be that TA.....but I have no clue how to implement any of this....I really don't. It think I show him daily that I love him and that he is good enough, I'm bending over backwards. It's so hard to show him it can work, when crap like the electric threatening to be shut off happens...it knocks me right back to square one again. I took care of it, all I can do is make a valiant effort not to let it happen again.

This is all so damn draining.

Thank you so much for the hug Carnation, I needed it.

-Caren

Two days in a row you have bought him cigarettes...why is this your responisbility...You say there is no money, but yet you are buying cigarettes for the man???? Tell him to quit smoking...aren't cigarettes like $3.00 a pack? Add it up...that is a lot of money right there!

If he paid all the bills before you moved in, why isn't he paying them now?

No, I'm not impatient...why do you ask..LOL Sorry, talking to myself.

I don't know what to do, I don't know if I should call him at work, just blow it off and resume business as usual, write him a letter? (He probably gets sick of all my dang letters).

And of course, I automatically think....he's gonna go straight back to the OW the second I do something wrong, I don't say this, but it's always in the back of my mind....with no relief in sight, it won't go away for sure when I don't feel secure in my marriage.

I don't know what else to do, I don't want to start the rebuilding talk again this evening...I don't want it to be up for discussion....I want it to just be, damn it.

He wasn't confrontational when I brought him the cigarettes, but he wasn't all happy to see me either.

I don't know, I don't know what I'm freaking doing....as I'm sure is apparent to anyone reading this thread.

I *AM* interested in recovery, and this morning, I didn't LB all over the place, even as he was berating me.....I kept thinking WHY CAN'T I JUST DO SOMETHING RIGHT?!?!?!?!?!

-Caren

Moving....I didn't see your post, I was too busy just throwing my own thoughts down on the page.

Yeah, I was wondering when I was going to get nailed for the cigarette thing. Yes, I buy him cigarettes nearly everyday. I smoke too, so I guess I just think that I'd hate to be without cigarettes, so I'm trying to be considerate.

Why isn't he paying the bills? I guess because he feels that is my job. And I wouldn't mind paying every bit of them if I actually had the money.....but it's in short supply as of late. (Neither of us make jack crap -- but I am in school).

His top EN's are probably (I say probably because he's never filled out the questionnaire...and now would be astronomically bad timing):

Financial Support
Sexual Fulfillment
Admiration
Attractive Spouse

**Not necessarily in that particular order.

-Caren

What an incredibly sad way to live. The egg shells cracking all day must be maddening.

Caren, why are you giving any credence to his "emotional needs" being that the bills get paid on time. What kind of B$ is this? You don't even have a real job and yet you are trying to be do something for him that is NOT POSSIBLE. You are the mouse running on the cart wheel in the little cage. Try as you might, you won't ever catch the "cheese" doing what you are doing. The feeling of complete and utter helplessness must be overwhelinmg. Anyone would feel overwhelmed doing what you are doing. At the risk of being attacked here, perhaps, just perhaps you need to "rethink" your "plan". The constant threats of "not working it out" if things go bad one day are quickly gonna take a toll on you. You are asking a podiatrist to do the job of a heart surgeon by doing what you are doing (yes, this is a cheesy analogy, I admit). I sincerely wish you luck, you by God are going to need it to remain sane.

This is so unreal I can't even understand how you can possibly think that this is about "recovery" or "rebuilding".

Maybe it is just me who is "out to lunch". It must just be me who is "nuts" and needs the clarity (I am halfway being serious about this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). That must definitely be it, nothing else makes sense.

LM

Caren,

OK, you need to THINK! Have a proper non-LBing response ready for the next time he wants to give up.

You don't make enough money to significantly contribute to the bills. He doesn't make much, either; however, he was able to pay the bills when he was on his own...probably because he wasn't paying you any child support.

Does your combined income qualify your family for food stamps? Check on it and see.

I have to say that I have a hard time understanding married couples splitting the bills and if one partner can't meet his/her obligation, the other one doesn't think he/she should pay it.

Financially, I consider a marriage a partnership. A couple should sit down and work out a budget, taking into consideration each partner's ability to contribute. No, it won't necessarily be 50/50. Sometimes, one partner has to pay 100% of the bills, but it's important to understand that the partner who does not bring income into the family may contribute other things into the home.

For instance, Caren, you seem to have gotten your housekeeping under control...you are keeping a clean house, taking care of your daughters, keeping the family in clean clothes, and I assume that you are cooking nutricious meals for your family. THAT is also contributing to the family.

You are going to school. Yes, I can understand that this limits your ability to contibute financially to the bills; BUT, in the long run, it should pay off, shouldn't it? You should be able to get a good job, and help increase your family's standard of living.

In the meantime, brainstorm ways to cut back. Yes, I'm sure you are already cutting back as much as you think you can. But,you can probably find other ways to save. For instance, the cigarettes....if finances are really that tight, maybe it would be a good idea to quit. If you and your H each smoke a pack a day, that comes to somewhere around $42-$50 a week! Wouldn't that add up to enough to pay your electric bill each month?

I know it's hard to quit. But, I think the key is finding something else that is more important to you than smoking. When I became pregnant (birth control messup) the last time, I laid down my cigarettes the minute I realized I was pregnant. My baby was more important to me than smoking. The bad part is that I went back to smoking a couple of weeks after I lost the baby. I'm a "stress smoker". When I've quit to have a baby, I never had any physical withdrawal from nicotine. I can go visit my mother all day and never even want a cigarette while I'm with her (she would b**** at me about smoking). I guess my current excuse for smoking is that it prevents me from committing murder (guess whose? LOL!).

You can work out something, Caren. I know you can! Just think and plan what you need to say...and don't let yourself get off track.

Yeah well, gotta play with the cards I was dealt, don't I?? I'm trying to find a better job, his job doesn't pay much, and I admit I pointed this out to him. I said "Why are we always critiquing MY job.....did you ever stop to think that YOUR job doesn't pay enough?" He said "It's a steady job, it's kept a roof over your head for the past 6 years" (That's LITERALLY all it's done....he's paid the rent out of his check and that's it.)

You don't think I feel like I live in some parallel alternate universe? Cuz I do. My crappy little waitress job is barely going to be able to cover 2 bills plus food, unless, of course, I pull doubles....which I'm not opposed to, but it's a whole lotta time, and not much money. I could conceivably make 80 to 100 bucks if I worked a double, instead of the 30 to 40 I make waitressing at lunch.

The part that concerns me is...if I'm working all day at the restaurant...when exactly does that leave time to find another job?

I dunno, I've always *attempted* to pay all the utilities, but it's a robbing Peter to pay Paul proposition.

Yeah, the sound of the eggshells cracking gets a little deafening, I'll have to admit.

I dunno, maybe I'm fighting a losing battle....but I've sorta made my bed, so to speak......at this juncture, ain't jack I can do about it, except try to make it work, at least until I graduate with my LPN (Going LPN then RN)...then I'll at least be making 15ish dollars an hour.

So, the long and short of it is, if he's not happy, I'm sorry. I'm not jumping for joy either, but at least I'm trying.

I guess my only alternative is to listen to him when he says he's unhappy, tell him I'm sorry he's not, and just keep doing what I'm doing.

-Caren

Caren,

I am thinking the lemonman is right. Sorry but I hate to tell you after going through the A, the withdrawals and into recovery for around a year now that what you are going through is just pure disrespect.

I am thinking that IMO and MY OPINION only that he must be having contact with her. Not to mention that he sounds very immature about the whole bill thing. I have been married twice now once to an alcoholic, and this time to the current husband who had an A and neither time did I have to scrounge around for bill money. I would be totally offended if "my husband" talked to me like that about money. My husband paid the bills the whole time he was in his affair. I am talking the mortgage and all the utilities and everything. He needs to get his head on straight and get a grip on life honestly. You don't tell your wife to pay the bills or it isn't working out! I mean how do you possibly live like that? He needs to look in the mirror and say I am a man and I need pay bills and maybe get a second job to pay more of them. Esp. if his wife is in school and you have children to feed and cloth.

I am sorry if this offends you but it sounds like a bunch of out of high school pooey that you are dealing with here. I would rethink things if I were you. This definitely isn't recovery and I don't see any rebuilding going on either. R and R isn't one sided and he isn't trying.

HINY