Once again, I am sorry empty, but I do Love her and I would never put any child in danger. <P>------------------<BR>I Love You Angel<P>[This message has been edited by other man (edited August 17, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by other man (edited August 17, 1999).]

Hello Other Man<P>I suppose that there is always another side to the story in this carse 3 some where between these 3 stories lies the truth only you all know what it is it is not for me to pass judgement on any one of you BUT if her realationship was so bad why not first end it and then get involved with some one else ??? I have not ever understood this perhaps you could explinan .<BR>Jenny<P>------------------<BR>Where have all the cowboys gone ?<P><BR>

Hello other man,<BR> I consider myself a friend of Empty's, but I am not going to take sides in this thing. I wanted to tell you that up front. I consider almost 100% of the people here my friends also.<BR> But there are a few things you need to understand about affairs and the ways people react to them. First, have you ever been betrayed by a spouse, I don't mean a girlfriend, I mean a wife ? <BR> I can assure you that there is nothing that will make a person act badly than to have this happen to you. I have been there and know. If you haven't experianced this you can not know totally devistating it is. <BR> As for Empty and his wife, and their marriage, well I will tell you what I told him the last time I talked to him , <BR>There is his side, there is her side and the truth is most likely someplace in the middle.<BR> I just hate to see a marriage break apart, if you feel the need to Defend yourself here, then you must realize that sleeping with someone else's wife is wrong, and it is wrong. If she doesn't want to be with Empty then she needs to be direct and honest with him. I will tell you that the odds of a relationship between the two of you lasting more than a few years is very small.<BR> Like I said I have refused to take sides in this , I didn't reply to emptys w when she posted because I didn't want to get in the middle, <BR> But this IS Marriage Builders, and this forum , the infidelity forum is supposed to be a place where we can come and share or sorrow and our joy, a safe place to express our feelings no matter if we are the betrayed, the betrayer, or the op. It matters not, the only time I have seen a op be "shunned" here out right is when they show NO remorse for their affair. <BR> This is just my 2 cents of course.<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

As I said in my post, she is a wonderful mother. <p>[This message has been edited by other man (edited August 17, 1999).]

. <P>[This message has been edited by other man (edited August 17, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by other man (edited August 17, 1999).]

other man,<BR>I have only seen empty here and there. I do not know whole story just what I have read here. I think the woman is getting all she deserves. She had a choice and made it. She knew that it would hurt him and she knew it would affect her boys. You also knew and chose to ignore all and both of you were selfish. But it is done now, so you and her or going to have to deal with the fall out. You all need consuling. You and her need to see that empty is devastated and has no control over his emotions. He needs all the help he can get and no critisms. He needs to think about his boys and how his and your (MEANING YOU AND HIS WIFE'S)actions are affecting the boys. The boys will always love both parents but they will have a lot of problems with both. AND EVEN MORE WITH YOU. They need to know that the parents love them and that you are not trying to take their dads place. Empty also needs to know this. My parents were divorced and it was incredibly hard on me and still is. You go through how, why, blaming and hating each of the parents and yourself. You think each of the parents hate you because you remind them of the other parent. There is so much more that I could never explain. All three of you need to focus on the boys and making them happy and secure. And if that means you have to step back do it. If that means she needs to cry all night do it. YOU ALL ARE ADULTS AND HAVE CHOICES TO MAKE THE KIDS HAVE NO CONTROL NO CHOICES. And if you want to blame someone blame yourself and her because yall had choices and yall had all the information before hand. Empty had no choices and all the information was a complete surprise that he was expected to be ok with. He is also going through transitions such as why, what did I do wrong, how come she doesnt love me, why couldnt she tell me before she did, and lots of other stuff. It is a shock. It is painful. It is very confusing. You feel like you can not trust noone including yourself. like you have lived with a stranger and everything you felt or thought about her was a lie. You cant trust your own heart or your own judgement. JUST NOW THAT ALL DECISIONS ARE MADE THINK ABOUT HOW YOU WOULD FEEL IF YOU WERE HIM OR THE BOYS DONT BE SELFISH AND TELL HER THE SAME.<BR><P>------------------<BR>INLOVE.....<BR>LOVE HAPPY ENDINGS HOPING WE ALL HAVE ONE...<P>

ACCIDENTALLY SUBMITTED TWICE.<p>[This message has been edited by INLOVE (edited August 16, 1999).]

other man: My question to you is what would she do if you weren't there to "save" her? What do you think she would do if you weren't in the picture? My guess is somehow she would find her way back home. I know none of you and haven't seen the postings, so I feel I am very unbias. I think she needs counseling alone,she needs to find the strength to handle her own problems. You can't save the day, you may think you can for now, but you won't always. I hope things work out for all three of you.....three is a crowd isn't it?

Sorry OM, the pompus "Hey, I'm here to save Mir and her boys" does not fly with me. If you truly cared you would get out of the way and let her work it out and not come back until its' over and everything has settled. A man is fighting for his family and you are in the way, only adding to the problem.<BR>If he is doing anything that is harmful, then there is a legal remedy for that. Having you in the picture only exacebates the anger that he is already feeling. Get out, get lost. You've done your part to destroy this family. You have every excuse in the world but no reason. <BR>Convince yourself and try to convince others on this board but I know as well as you do that your only objective is to cleave this woman from her family. Thank you OM, with people like you around we can be sure that children all over america will continue to suffer.

Just to be different, I will share an experience in my life where I think an affair was actually justified. I'm 39 years old now and this is the only time I have actually seen this, but I will accept that it's possible.<P>One of my aunts was in a bad marriage to a violent man. She loved him tremendously and he her, but he was extremely volatile. He gave her a few shiners over the years and smacked the kids around.<P>They had three boys. She was a stay-at-home mom, dependent on him for all her income.<P>She went to her parents to see if they would take her in. They were selfish people and said no, you're an adult and you need to make your marriage work (this stuff is good for lifetime resentments). She had no place to go, so she stayed (and continued to get beat up).<P>Eventually, she hooked up with a very physically strong, tough man. Frankly, I think she had to find someone like this this. Otherwise, her husband would have come after her. She immediately moved in with the OM (who had a wife that he trashed - this part was VERY WRONG). Both got divorced and married each other. They just celebrated their 25 year anniversary.<P>I bring this up because it is at least possible (but unlikely) for a valid alternate viewpoint based on abuse. None of us know enough to say what was really going on in that relationship, but I do think it's in the children's best interest for everyone to try to work through the problems as adults.

<BR>[This message has been edited by other man (edited August 17, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by other man (edited August 17, 1999).]

Other Man:<P>Sleeping with another man while still married is NOT justifiable as doing something "for herself." She had plenty of other options. If you were truly the friend you profess to be, you would not have taken advantage of her in this "time of need."<P>I don't care how mutual it was. I don't care if her marriage to Empty was in shambles. The bottom line is, you were BOTH wrong to have this affair. If their marriage is irretreivably broken, she should have gotten a DIVORCE and THEN taken up with you. As her friend, you should have insisted that the two of you NOT act on your feelings until she was a "free" woman.<P>The kids issue is tough, but I've seen worse. I still don't buy your explanation, and I never will. Cheating on a spouse is the worst thing you can do to them. YOU were the enabler, and you weren't a very good friend.<P>I'm sure I'm gonna catch hell for this post, but the hard truth is the hard truth. I can understand how y'all got yourselves into this mess. The fact is, though, it was WRONG, and blaming just Empty or Miranda or YOU isn't right. You've ALL done the wrong thing here.<P>Stop placing the blame on other people and accept what YOU did. Empty obviously hasn't done that yet either, but we're not talking about him. We're talking about YOU. I hope Empty gets the help he needs, but YOU need to own up to your role here too.<P>I tend to agree with Fighter on this one. You seem to be trying to come across as the "good guy" here, and you're not. There aren't any in this story.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

other man, don't get me wrong I commend you for helping a woman and her children. Not many would step up to the plate to help out someone the way you did. I have a problem with the affair. Maybe it was your place to help her, I'll agree with that, but not to sleep with her. If and when she got her life together and was divorced then you have all rights to move forward. If you helped her in a difficult situation, then I applaud you. I'm glad you have tried to keep the children out of it, however they are still in the middle. They know you and their father and the fighting in between......hard place for children to be. It doesn't matter to children who is at fault, they want their parents happy and together. I hope no offense was taken, just telling you how I feel.

Nice of you to say nice things about their dad. It may make you feel better about yourself for your part in the destruction of this family. What they did to become a family is of no concern to you. That is their business. There was a family and if you were interested in helping Mir and the boys, you would have stayed out of it and told her she needs to speak to a counsellor about her marrige problems. A true friend would have not exploited her vulnerable state for his own gratification. Stay out of it until she is done. If you want to build a relationship with her, it has to begin because MT is not with her, not because you are coaxing her away. Be there as a friend in case things get violent. But then she can call the cops herself. <BR>I doubt id MT could do anything to destroy her. That is the typical cop out for people trying to justify their affair. <BR>It is not for you to determine if this marriage can be saved or worked out. THat is for Mir and MT.<BR>Looks like Mir has decided that she needs to think about things. Leave her alone until she does and then ony after they are divorced and she is free from any marital obligations. If they don't divorce, then there are plenty of other unmarried women out there. If you take anything from this it would be to stay away from married women.

When do you give advice to move on a do whats best for the children???? <p>[This message has been edited by other man (edited August 17, 1999).]

When do you give advice to move on a do whats best for the children???? <p>[This message has been edited by other man (edited August 17, 1999).]

OM, the point is that you should not even be involved right now. Too bad about all of the problems they are having but they are their problrms not yours and you should stay out. They should be only blaming each other because you should not be in the middle of this. Also, would you have so much concern and compassion if mir and the boys if Mir were grossly overweight or resembled Phyllis Diller? Your concern is to get Mir. And you use the boys and your compassion to do it. <P>If you really want to help someone and dedicate your life to it, go help starving children in Mexico. You don't have a job anyway and you could justify your existence as something more than a homewrecker....

Other Man:<P>The point of my post is not to place blame. It's to get you to acknowledge that YOUR role was just as destructive as Empty's, and that, while you may have intended to be the "good guy," you did the WRONG thing by sleeping with her.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>why do you need a plan??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Because if you REALLY want to put your marriage back on track, it takes a solid plan to get yourself there. Empty chose to use this forum to vent and to receive sympathy. I don't know if he told us the truth or not. We simply dispense advice and support to those who ask and who show a genuine interest in fixing their marriages. Empty presented himself as such a person. I don't know if he is or is not, but my (and everyone else's) advice to HIM has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about with YOU.<P>Stop twisting this back to what Miranda wants or doesn't want. The focus of this should be what YOU can do to make it easier on her. In that regard, Fighter is right. GET OUT OF HER LIFE UNTIL SHE AND EMPTY FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO. For now, they are still married, and YOU have NO place in that marriage. IF they get a divorce and IF Miranda wants you after that, THEN you can move forward.<P>But, for now, the best thing YOU can do is to get yourself OUT of this situation. You are certainly NOT helping, and I doubt anyone here will see you as the "good guy." Bottom line is that you slept with another man's wife. You were not her friend, you were her lover. Fighter is right. A real friend would not sleep with a married woman. You would have gotten her the help she needed.<P>Now, go do what's right.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited August 16, 1999).]

Other Man,<P>Friends don't let friends drink and drive. And they don't help their married friends sleep around either. Your own self interest is way to tied up in all of this to possibly not be a factor.<P>If Miranda marriage was so terrible, and I'm not saying it wasn't, but even given that, the proper avenue is counseling, lawyers, separation, and then divorce. Dating is inappropriate prior to the separation phase.<P>Empty will of course reap the rewards of any inappropriate actions he may have taken over this time. The courts and the police are the proper people both to determine the magnitude of his actions and the proper compensation.<BR>

Hello OM,<BR>I was surprised to see your post regarding empty and Mir. I am a very blunt person, so will just say that you are an adult, should act responsible for your part in this drama, and leave the rest to fate. The marriage and the children were best off without interference from an unknown outside force. As I understand it, her family was there for her all along, but you chose to be the OM. You made your choices, and must live with the consequences of those decisions. I hope you have learned valuable life lessons since the cost to the children is high. <BR>It was my understanding that your past included domestic violence? Or am I mistaken? Please be responsible and make good decent choices in life. Empty and Mir are adults and need to work this out on their own. A third person will only create more havoc and cause more damage to these children.<BR>I am not taking any sides here, but am encouraging you to look at yourself and your role in this drama.