That is a tough one that I can't really answer. Most will say expose it, but I would gather intel. That is me, not you, and not the opinion of anyone else but me. But this is serious stuff. Where does your W sit on her Faith? You mentioned it about yours earlier, but what about her?

One thing I did was constantly talk about the M when I first saw my W. I was seeing her at a rate of about once every two weeks at best. There are a few big posts of mine describing the ordeal back in the EN section. Talking too much about the R didn't seem to help much. I started backing off some, just talking about misc stuff. It doesn't always have to be "hey when are we getting back together" If she asks questions, then answer. Like, how was counseling? Fine, I talked about X. It took 7 weeks before we spent the weekend together again. The first two weeks were rough, she said very similar things to what your W wrote in her email. About not sure if things will work out, not getting hopes up.

Let her see you are working on you, if it is opening the door for her, do it. There are a lot of things that I never did much for my W, like opening the car door for her, I do it all the time now.

You sich is a bit different, I had a list of bad habits I had that she sent me that frustrated her. There were more but I think her hands hurt from typing. I was able to try and address those. Not sure what has been written in your emails, but perhaps you can gather some idea of what your W is needing.

I think there may be a maturity level thing going on as well, I do not like assuming or making judgements, but the age thing could be it. You guys are still really young, but don't get me wrong, many couples get together that young and stay together. What type of person was she before you met, party girl, traditional girl, run of the mill normal? She may have enjoyed the whole idea of having a kid and marriage but now thinks different because of something that has happened.

I am grasping at straws, but feel your pain and confusion. It sucks, I know. Keep reading and learning, keep working on you, and keep praying. Gotta run.

I have tried telling her this, but she is insanely stubborn when it comes to things. She has been telling people that "I will never change" when she hasn't even given me a chance to. She won't try counseling, I'm 20 years old and she is the only girl I've ever been with - I'm still learning about myself, her, and our relationship, so for her to leave based on the fact that "I will never change" is hardly an inadequate excuse in my eyes.



Yes, but no - it wasn't a healthy one. She was forced to live with her father against her will because of divorce precedings, and based on the fact that her father was given custody of her as a child. At the time, neither of her parents seemed ready to support my wife in their life; her mom was unstable financially and independently and relied on men to take care of her; she couldn't possibly support a 10 year old daughter at that point - not to mention the neglect she showed her during her childhood while, instead of developing a proper relationship with her daughter, she was spending time out with men. My W's father physically abused her as a kid, however, the more I've come to hear from her father's side of the story and her step-mother who have both exercised better judgment and maturity (as far as making decisions and evaluating our marriage is concerned) has almost made me wonder how serious the abuse really was and how much of it has been exaggerated in my wife's head. Now, that isn't for me to judge - and if she said that her dad beat her, I believe her; and I do feel extremely bad that things happened the way she said they did. Because no child deserves to be beaten; and certainly not the girl I love more than anything. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My W has always been influenced by her mom's thinking - after all, in her eyes - what mommy says goes. (A prime example of this was when she was debating on whether or not she wanted to take a break from one another during the summer). Divorce wasn't even mentioned at that point; and then, her mom called, and about an hour later after she hung up the phone; my wife had flipped a complete 180 and was saying how she didnt think we would work. Her mom's view of men is so skewed because of her own mistakes and decisions in her life, that she immediately condemns all men as selfish pigs who want nothing more than sex and their own greedy ambitions; it would probably help her if she had made something of herself instead of rushing into children and destroying any opportunity to make a steady career for herself - now she's dependent on her third husband who she has caught cheating on her in order to live. No wonder she hates men.

My W claims that her father beat the living tar out of her when she was a kid and that he has a horrible temper and that hes the biggest scumbag on the face of the earth - which is ironic, because I've never seen an ounce of anger in the man; he's never showed hostility towards me before; and quite frankly looks at me like I was his own son. I don't doubt that he did physically touch my W when she was young however the line between abuse and discipline is a thin one these days. I asked her step mom about it, and she laughed. She asked me, "If B actually was a child abuser, do you think I would knowingly marry him and bring my 3 kids into his house?". She said that half of the time what my W referred to as "abuse" was her dad restraining her because my W was so out of control at the time (age 10) that he had to use physical means to calm her down and get her in line.

Hearing these things didn't surprise me. Two weeks before my wife and I married, she was diagnosed with Graves Disease, a disease that, untreated, can be fatal. I drove 400 miles home from school during finals week to be with her and to give her love and support, because naturally - i was fearful that something might happen to her. When she went to the hospital and was diagnosed, the doctor told her that she was in a critical state; one where if a fever developed, would kill her. She was given NONNEGOTIABLE orders to stay under bed rest for five days before she got up and was moving around again - this was for her own safety. Well, when i got to her house, I laid in bed with her for like three days in a row, I got her her food, took care of the things we needed; we just spent quality time together while she stablized. Around the fourth day however, she began to get very irrate. She would get out of bed to go get things, and began walking outside, etc. Her mom and I both told her that she shouldn't be getting out of bed, especially in the state that she was in; however, my W got extremely pissed off at us, exclaiming that "we had no clue what it was like to spend 5 days in bed, and that we needed to stop controlling her and telling her what to do." according to her "she knew her body well enough to know if she was well enough to get out of bed". After hearing this I tried to explain to her that it wasn't really negotiable and that she needed to get back into bed - at which point she stormed off into the rain and began crying for some reason of frustration, and began walking down the street in her PJs down the road. This obviously scared the living tar out of me and I panicked - knowing full well that her resting heart rate at the time for over 145 beats a minute (RESTING!). I pleaded with her to come back, and told her that if she didn't come back I would call the cops and have them bring her back for her own good; because I wasn't going to grab her or force her into anything. She then started yelling at me, cussing, and began to run at full stride down the road in the ran. I panicked even more and ran behind her telling her to stop, at this point i was in tears - I was so incredibly confused and frustrated as to why it was so hard to just stay in bed for two more days. As I caught up to her, she screamed in my face and told me that if I didn't leave her alone she was going to "kill herself" and that she would "leave me". After sternly telling her that I wouldn't let her go walk outside alone and end up hearing later that she had collapsed somewhere and died, she proceeded to swing at me, hit me twice in the face as hard as she could and started hitting me in the chest. Finally after about an hour of walking, and an emotional breakdown, I got her to come home.

There was also another incident where she pinned me up in the bathroom of her mother's house after we got into an argument and I told her that I needed to leave so I could cool down and not say something I didn't mean, and in the process of leaving, she pushed me into the bathroom, through the door and jammed my hip into the jagged edge of the bathroom counter. I sternly pushed her against the bathroom door with no violent intentions and looked in the face saying "Never hit me or push me again". After finally standing up for myself in this manner and letting her know that I was through letting her hit me and forcing herself on me, she flipped out, started screaming at me, and told me to "Get the ---- out of the house" She grabbed my things, threw my stuff out the window into the rain, rolling several expensive objects down the hill; she then proceeded to push me into the corner near her backdoor as I went to retrieve my things, trying to lock me out of the house - which I lived in as well. I told her that I hadn't done anything wrong and that she had no right to lock me out of a house that we were both living in; explaining to her that I was part of her mom's family too now. As I tried to push my way back into the house, her family's rottweiler who unfortunately, has grown up with her and not me heard her yelling at me and saw her pushing me into the corner, and proceeded to sink its teeth into my thigh as I began to bleed all over the place. I eventually decided that it wasn't worth it and went to go call a friend to let me leave for the day - instead, she grabbed the phone out of my hands, threw it at the wall breaking it, and told me to "get the ---- out again" I finally decided that it wasn't worth the effort, and let her lock me out of the house.

After she locked me out of the house; she called her mom, told her "I hit her" and proceeded to have her mom call the police on me. They showed up, took one look at the situation, saw that I was bruised on my knee, my thigh, and was bleeding badly from my leg - and that she wasn't even marked, and split us up.

I've spent this whole marriage being villified in the eyes of her mother and her mother's side of the family. The only times she tells her mom anything about me is when things go wrong, and half of the time shes irrate and overexaggerates everything. We don't even have our own business anymore - she can never settle anything between us, she always go to her mom. So, naturally now, her mom is telling her to leave me; because she's got this over-inflated image of me as a Woman-hating typical man scumbag, because after all - in her mom's eyes - all men are scum.

Looking; before she was with me - she was an accumulation of things. She had two "serious" boyfriends in high school, one of 9 months, one of 11 - both of them threw her out like she meant nothing in the end, and never gave her a reason why they didn't want to be with her anymore (according to my wife. I obviously wasn't there, so I only hear her side of things, but I believe her.)

After her second boyfriend left her, she began sleeping around with guys she had only known for days - looking for love? I don't know. She slept with a guy that was 9 years older than her when she was 17 (which is illegal, of course.) A guy that was 8 years older than her when she was 18, and who she'd only known two weeks. She also proceeded to do things with a guy she'd only known for three or four days, and then, came to me proclaiming that she had been used by so many guys. She would go out dancing with her friends at clubs in high school, grinding and the sorts; and when we first started dating dressed very scantily (which when I let her know that it upset me, especially when her chest was completely visible when she bent over - and she got pissed off at me; calling me controlling.

I recall in an email she sent to someone during her process of entering the Withdrawn Phase (i think thats what it was called), she told someone that "She wanted her old life back" but then she proceeded to tell them in the same email that "She wanted to settle down with someone and have kids and a family" - I'm sorry, but both aren't possible.

I'm caught up in this whole situation thinking to myself and wondering...

If my W asks for a D and leaves me without trying to fix things - if someday she asks to come back, would I be setting myself up again if I let her? Especially if this possible A is influencing her decision?

WHOA!!!

Now things are starting to get little serious. You are in an abusive relationship dude! The time away is probably healthy and safe for you.

A good friend of mine was in a R like this, she was a stripper, low self esteem, had a problem with cutting herself, possibly sleeping around with my friend while she lived 3 hrs away and went to school. She would flip out at times, had a drug problem, once she took a hammer to his new truck and beat the hell out of it. She has been diagnosed with BP disorder.

We pleaded with him to leave the R, that it was dangerous. Finally after about a year and a half or two he left for good. You need to protect yourself. She may not be like what you described anymore, but [email]d@mn[/email] man, be careful with this one.

If there was abuse in her life growing up, maybe you are the one she wants to take it out on. Maybe she wants to drive you away. I haven't a clue on this, this IS NOT my area. I have zero experience with this, but just from the stoires SHE NEEDS help. You have some big choices to make now my friend. I hope someone on here with more experience can guide you, keep posting and keep safe.

Although I'm aware that abusive relationships are not healthy, the last time she hit me was over a year ago. We talked sat down seriously and talked about it and she never did it again. I wish she wasn't so close-minded to alternatives other than divorce, let alone just getting counseling for herself and not us. I'm not afraid to admit I have issues and I need counseling - its frustrating to see that she's so different.

I have to agree with L4.

I know this isn't very MB advice...you can still attempt to follow that program if you choose.

I even think that there is a possibility that she may have been sexually abused as a child...maybe one of her mom's boyfriends? She may be bi-polar manic depressive or some other type of mental disorder. In the short time you've been together you have had a very volatile relationship.

In some ways the things she says are very much indicative of a WS. They can seem like aliens have abducted them.

The distance between you is probably good. I can't see this changing overnight. She really could use some intense IC.

I don't think you can save her when she doesn't want to be saved. You certainly can't educate her. She can't really hear you. She is an addict if she is in an EA/PA. Are you sure she isn't doing drugs...crack or meth? Sounds possible.

You are probably right in thinking that if she decided to come back at some point down the road and get back with you that she would eventually fall back into the same pattern of behavior, either abuse, A's, or drug abuse or addiction. By then you may have children together and that would be tragic. You really don't need this in your life.

You can have a better life than this. You are young and you sound like you have a good head on your shoulders and a good heart.

I know you love her and want the best for her, but you can do better than to be with this crazymaker. She may be doing you a favor if she is determined to D.

I don't like wargaming like this, making judgements and such because I DON'T know your W. But this isn't just your behavior driving her to leave. In your first posts it seemed like it could be. But you are dealing with a lot of issues on her part. You may have your own, you need to work on those, but the ones she has, you can't fix. It is up to her.

She may like chaos in her life, becoming married, being in a loving M and having a stable life may be so stange to her that she had to create chaos to feel normal and stable. Much like the life she grew up in. The norman rockwell life may be so foreign to her that she can't take it.

I saw that only because it kinda is how I felt around my W's family. They are really nice, have a good tiem together...normal. Mine on the other hand it a little more rough around the edges. Being around her family was foreign to me. Made me feel weird or out of place sometimes.

What does your W's dad say in all this. Does he know of the abuse by her on you? I know you say this was one time a year ago, but still, that worries me. That combined with the lack of self respect makes me think there are deeper issues she has that have never been addressed. Maybe your marriage brought these to the surface. Where are other family members in this circle? Are they like the mom and dad?

Good post, L4ac,
I think you are on to something with your assessment that a Norman Rockwell family life may be foreign to her etc. and that she may need chaos to feel normal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I just know that in my M the most communication we did was when we argued. Other than that it was small talk. My step dad and mom did the same thing. That was their affection. I think on some level I was doing the same thing in my M. It wasn't that I didn't want to just sit down and talk for no reason, I just for some stupid reason could argue easier than simply talking with my wife about her day at work.

Guys - I can express how important what you are doing here by talking to me is. I will reply shortly, I have to take care of somethings really quick first.

Dr. Harley says: "Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness".

So, if you think about that before you open your mouth that may help you break that habit of poor communication.

Read the book Love Busters with your W, if you haven't already done so. HNHN's too of course. Both address communication.

There are techniques that you can learn to improve your communication with your spouse; also addresses conflict resolution techniques. Harville Hendrix teaches it in his book "Getting the Love You Want" or the seminars by the same name as facilited usually by other psychologists. Gary Smalley explains something similar in his books and seminars on marriage. Also, Drs. Les and Leslie Parrot in their book 'Love Talk'. You basically learn to listen, feedback what you hear and make sure they know that you heard them, or 'got it'. You can look them up.

Actually, yes my W was sexually molested so to speak by her cousin when she was like 6 years old; albeit he was only 7 - but she remembers it to this day, and told me several times how much it bothered her. After those things happened, he did it again when she was 10 years old. She also mentioned a time when she was 16 when she went to the doctor for a physical, and it was a male doctor.

-------The following might offend some people, so if you don't want to be offended or have a weak stomach, please don't read it.-------------


She sorta broke down once when we were in the car; I don't remember what exactly brought the topic up, but she mentioned how one time when she was 16 she was getting a physical at the doctor's office for swimming season and her mom came in with her. She said that the doctor, who I mentioned was male, stuck his fingers in her and probed around almost like he was getting off on it. She recalled feeling violated and wanted the guy to stop, but her mom later told her to stop freaking out and that there was nothing to worry about. She seemed extremely upset by it; and had mentioned refusing to ever see a male doctor again, and when faced with our kids, she mentioned never letting them (if we had them) see a male doctor (our girls anyways).

I don't know if that has anything to do with the way she's been acting or not - it wasn't talked about a whole lot. But she has expressed several times how hurt she was by what happened with her cousin as well who forced her to touch his and his friend's penises while she was younger, and other nasty things like that. She remains friends with him till this day, I remember when I met him I wanted to beat the living ---- out of him more than anything, but she made me promise not to bring it up, nor to do anything about it so I bit my lip out of respect for her and said nothing. Needless to say it ruined that night.

As far as her dad is concerned, I haven't brought up her hitting me to him. I know she doesn't do drugs - she tried marijuana once and absolutely hated it; neither of a drink nor do we smoke. So I don't think its a matter of drugs. Although, one time when I was being tested for depression and trying out different medicines she did mention that she felt like she had some form of medical depression but she never followed up on it.

I want you all to understand that she isn't a bad person - she's been through a lot, and she's not a "crazy" - although, she may act like it, its not because shes crazy by nature...just unfortunate circumstances have hurt her as a person and influenced who she's become. I'm sure she'd say the same thing about some of the things I've done or said in our relationship.

I see myself thinking more clearly now about the future and about how serious this situation actually is however. I think its time to stop dicking around and straight up set down some ultimadems (sp?). I have spent this entire marriage clinging to her; number one because I love her. Nothing will ever change the fact that I love her - I don't want to see her life spiral downhill, and I've always wanted whats going to best for her. But in the same respect, I haven't spent enough time thinking about what this situation is doing to me and my life.

I made a pact with myself before I ever met her that no matter what, I would graduate from college unlike my mom and dad. My mom, a heroin addict - and my dad, a dead beat who left after I was born are two people who although I love by genetic nature, never want to be like. I saw, and experienced first hand the hurt and the pain that their bad decisions caused me as a person, and never EVER want to put someone, let alone my own kids through that ----. NO ONE deserves that. If our marriage is going to destroy me emotionally, I can't sit around and let that happen. I love her more than anything, and I want it to work out - but if shes not willing to take the steps to help herself, and continues to treat us like a high school relationship by running around talking to guys behind my back and changing all of her passwords then I'm through, as much as it hurts - I NEED to step up and FINALLY be a man about this. I let her hit me and stuck around; I let her sleep at a guys house overnight even though I was in tears begging her not to leave and she did anyways - leaving me in the house by myself all night, knowing that it was tearing me apart inside. And I let her come back like it never happened. I'm better than that, and I deserve more than that.

I will always be there for her, because I don't want to see her get hurt or end up making a decision that she will regret for the rest of her life - but its also something she has to do herself. I can't change her for her; she needs to change her for herself.

Its tragic really, because when we married we agreed from the bottom of our hearts that we were going to beat the odds and that we weren't going to end up like our parents; because we've both strived our entire lives to "break the cycle", and ironically enough, she told her friend that leaving me was what she needed to be happy, and what she needed to do to "break the cycle" when in turn, in my humble opinion, she is falling into the same cycle her mom did however many years ago when she divorced the best guy that had ever happened to her.

And as far as her getting mad at me for not getting her pregnant - how can she expect to be committed to a child when she can't even commit to a marriage, or at least, even try counseling, or attempting to save it. She just gunna run out when she decides her kids aren't fun too?

Ultimatums are not usually the best way to go.

You can establish clearer bounderies as to what is or is not acceptable for you as you are reflecting on the mistakes you made in the past. It is good to learn to stand up for yourself and be a man. Women, generally, respect a man more for that, than deferring all the power in the relationship to her. They seem to want the power but then will turn on you as your wife has done. You can still be firm and still be loving, caring, and calm. Be the lighthouse.

I'm just mainly concerned that when we get together Sunday I approach things from the right direction. I want to express to her that I want to save things - but I also want to express that she needs to stop fiddling around, the clock is ticking and we don't have forever to figure these things out. Either she's coming back to college with me or not; if she does or not will affect my housing situation as we were in Family Housing.

As far as the prospect of her running around talking to guys behind my back and changing all her passwords on me; that is bothering me a ton, but I don't know how to or if I should even bring it up. Like i said - the most important thing Sunday is that I make an impression on her that I'm not the jealous, neglectful guy I was for that span of time in our relationship after things started getting bad.

In her own words, she "doesn't know if she trusts me in our relationship, let alone herself anymore". I want to be able to espress to her how important it is that we do get counseling, if anything just for ourselves as people - and I don't know how to convince her that she has a problem, much like I, and that its not going to get solved without help, much like our marriage won't.

I'm just confused in general about how to tackle Sunday. I don't even feel like I can talk to her seriously about us as husband and wife anymore because she just seems to get irritated now.

Trix is right, you aren't ready for the trump card yet.

My W and I said the same thing about beating the odds and not being like our parents, we said that yet never did anything to try and accomplish that. Well she sort of did but I didn't. She tried and tried but it took the seperation to make me see it. But that is my sich.

I think you have a good grasp of what needs to be done, you are just starting this journey and it's not gonna be an overnight thing.

yes your wife has done some things that disrespect your marriage. You both chose to honor your marriage, you need to be the one who tries the carry you both thur this. Protect yourself but make sure you do everything you can first.

It's so hard to try and give advice on your sich, cause there are a lot of facets to deal with. I would suggest keep with the IC, let her know you are going, maybe send her an email or two during the week. Go from there. It's about all you can do.

This story has become much more than it started out as, you telling it is a good step. You are still young and yes you have plenty of time to start a new future, but doing that this quickly into things is the easy way out.

You guys should have been in cousneling LONG ago, but hey so should I have gone before my W and I got married, I regret that a LOT.

You are in a tough spot yes, but you might be able to pull it off.

I'm really worried about going into this situation meeting with her on Sunday with the very thought of a possible A on my mind. I don't know how I'm going to look her in the eyes and not bring it up or not get emotional about it or even just showing that something is seriously wrong when I talk to her on Sunday. I know that looking at her knowing that shes lying to me about going to dinner with him, and about being "more than friends" with him, while I talk to her is going to physically affect my mood and the way I act when we get back together to talk.

I don't know how I'm going to keep my composure and talk to her seriously while trying to express to her how important it is that we both seek counsel for this knowing that, for all I know, she could be leaving after she talks to me to go hang out with this guy. I feel inside like she's treating this like a high school fling - the talking behind my back, the changing of the passwords...everything. I dont know how I'm supposed to go into this Sunday, not at all - and I'm so scared that I'm going to mess it up really bad. i want to express my concern for the situation shes getting herself into, but I cant seem to find a way of doing it without looking like I'm "a" being clingy, "b" wanting her to come back, of "c" insulting who she is as a person, because I know if I bring her issues up she'll get pissed at me.

Ugh...I need to head to work now, I won't be back till late tonight, but please - reply. I need all of the wisdom I can get heading into this weekend - it could possibly be the most important conversation I ever have.

Nothing you tell her is going to make her trust you again. BUT that doesn't mean that it cannot be earned back. Little by little. I still don't know if that trust is being earned back with my W. But everytime we have a good time together a little bit gets deposited in her bank...in theory.

Read the concepts, don't start making demands. I think she is probably well aware of her college issues. Demanding that she come back by the start of the semester isn't going to put anything good in her mind except, this guy is trying to control me and tell me what to do.

Tread softly, you have to.

Do you excercise? Run, workout, anything like that. You ought to. I started running with the dog everyday, it was good. Now I am running and playing tennis, hadn't played that in 10yrs. I'll post more later, had a project come in.

She will receive just about anything you say about her choices , behavior and issue as disrespectful judgements (DJ's). If you insist on her returning with you she may see it as a selfish demand. Sad, but she probably won't be able to hear you.

Try to speak from your heart, how you feel. You can express how much her actions have hurt you and your marriage. You can, if you haven't already, take responsibility for your part in the bad parts of your marriage and the changes you are implementing to improve yourself.

You can remind her about the promises you both made and the hopes you both had when you started out and see if you can give her hope that you can have a better marriage than you had before all this.

You can say that your marriage needs to be put first before any other friendship. You can let her know that having intimate relationships, where you share details about your marriage with people of the opposite sex are inappropriate and not condusive to protecting your marriage. This applies to either of you. Keeping bounderies like that are to protect your marriage. It is part of the decision to love.

If you can learn some of Orchid's reverse babble before your meeting that may help. Look in the signature on her posts for the link. I understand that she may not be 'crazy'...I said 'crazymaking'...as in creating chaos and unnecessary drama.

Plan A is used to end the A and draw the WS back to marriage. Plan B is for you and to protect the love you have for her.

Part of this has to do with how much patience you may have to wait out these other relationships. They may need to run their courses. She doesn't seem to have a long attention span anyway. But, there is always the risk that she may get into a pattern of using you as a doormat to rescue her in between her straying. You don't want enable her to continue that kind of behavior. You certainly don't want to make babies with her until she has gotten some help or had an epiphany.