Hi,

I'm posting right now because I'm trying to figure out what exactly I am doing with my life right now, and how I'm going to move on with things.

Three weeks ago, my wife, who I married when I was 18, as was she, left me. When we married, we had never been happier in our lives - it was a match made in heaven, I've never met anyone like her before in my life. The love we shared for the first year of our marriage was the magic made in movies alone - everything was perfect. We were completely and utterly in love, we would gladly die for one another. Everynight we shared an intimacy unrivaled by anything I've ever witnessed or heard of - I was the luckiest man alive.

Then, things began to change. All of a sudden, the girl who had told me that I was her soulmate, and that she couldn't wait to spend eternity together was telling me that she didn't know if things were going to work. The same girl who told me that she couldn't live life without me in hers, and that I completed her was telling me that she didn't know if she loved me anymore. Then, a mere month after trying for our first child, and confessing her undying love for me; proclaiming that she was the happiest girl in the world, she left me to go to her mom's house. Three days later she told me that there was nothing I could do to make her love me again like she used to and that things would never be the same.

Over the past three weeks she has not called me once - her emails went from huge essays to small sentences. She stopped signing them "love" and every message I have gotten from her sense is completely void of emotion. She expresses no need nor want to actually contact me; it seems as if she does it out of necessity and not because she wants to. She has ended her last three messages with an unemotional "I hope all is well."

I've told her that e-mail is incredibly impersonal and that if shes going to be away from me, we need to at least talk on the phone. She expresses no desire to see me in person, and when I told her that not being with her was the hardest thing I've ever been through, she simply said, "Its not that bad".

The betrayal that I'm feeling inside hurts so incredibly bad, I don't know what to do. I don't understand how someone's emotions over the course of a week can go from being hopeful that problems are going to get fixed into complete emotional seclusion. I could never treat her the way she's treating me, not even if I tried to, or if I was completely pissed or angry. I don't understand how a love so incredibly strong that I used to see in her just disappeared off the face of the Earth like the last two years have meant nothing.

I know that its impossible to put this issue into perspective, especially because no words will ever express how strong our love for each other was, but I find myself lost every morning I wake up, wondering what in the hell I'm supposed to do with myself.

I want more than anything to let her go, and I'm trying to hard to - but I think the thing that is hurting more than anything is the fact that I had the girl of my dreams take back everything we ever promised together when we got married. Its like shes taking our dreams, our hopes, our love and somehow (which I'll never understand how) is just locking it away in some box that only she has the key to.

I want to go out and have fun, and I want to go see friends; but it seems as if nothing I do takes away the hurt and the betrayal. I've never felt so incredibly empty in my life before, and I don't know how or what I'm supposed to do about this situation. She wants to get together soon to talk about how we're going to go about divorce or whatever it is that she wants to do - but I don't know how I'm supposed to, or am going to be able to act around her when I see her. She acts like nothing is wrong when she emails me, and hse seems completely void of heartbreak, whereas I'm the biggest wreck I've ever been in my life.

What am I supposed to do? How do I move on? How do I tell her that I can't simply sit around and be her friend; how can she just discard all of this like it never meant anything; because I know at one point she loved me more than life itself - she showed it in a lot of ways.

There were signs in our relationship, and we both saw the problems - but it looks like she was the only one serious about letting them tear us apart. We tried going to counseling a few times, but when we got there both times they were closed, and the thought of counseling just sort of disappeared. I'm in counseling now, and I've taken steps towards fixing a lot of the things that she didn't like about me - but in her own words she said, "I don't think I want to put anymore time into us that I already have. Most of the time I feel like the damage thats been done is irreversible" Which makes me wonder then, how I'm not feeling this irreversible damage after the heartbreak that I've felt during our trying times. Is her love for me not as strong as my love for her is? I asked her to come with counseling with me, and she simply said "Just because you're doing things to better yourself as a persond doesn't mean things between us are magically going to get fixed."

She says all these things, yet she hasn't even tried counseling...I've been trying so hard for the last three weeks to "win my wife back" and I will continue to try until she divorces me or otherwise, but I'm only asking about advice to get over her because, no matter how hard I seem to try, and how strongly I know I love her - seeing myself toil so hard to fix myself and to show her that I love her more than anything and that I want things to be good between us again (especially because I've seen how amazing we were together) when she won't even try anymore makes me really, really depresed and its not good for me.

Like you, a lot of what upset her were things I was doing. I too had a hobby that I stayed up at night doing during the later part of our marriage and she went to bed alone (which now when I think about it I feel horrible about). I started letting my hobbies have more time then we had together, and when we would get into heated arguments I would say things I didn't mean.

I've never meant to hurt hr on purpose, I love her more than life itself - hence why I married her. I'm just trying to find a way for her to give us a chance - becauce not only do I think is she cheating me by just throwing it all away before we've even tried fixing things with professional help like counseling etc. But shes cheating herself and the vows and the dreams that we shared. At one point in our marriage she was so incredibly in love with me and wanted kids so badly - I dont understand how she can just throw it away and not want to "try" to give things a chance.

I was 100% serious when I told that i wanted more than anything to be the best husband and father for her and our children that I could be, this has been a learning process for me. I didn't come into our relationship knowing the answers to anything when it came to marriage problems or fatherhood, let alone husbandship - these are things I've come to know through the good and bad times that we've shared; and I'm scared more than anything that she won't even give it a shot. I will do everything I can to save what we have as long as I live - as long as she's willing to try.

Is it safe to assume that just because she isn't signing her emails "love" and is talking about divorce, doesn't mean she doesn't still love me?

I would write her a letter; but shes gotten to the point that whenever we talk and I try telling her that I'm serious about changing and that I want her to know that I'm serious about not doing it again - she gets irritated and almost angry with me, telling me that she can't stand talking on the phone with me because she always feels like the only reaosn I'm talking to her is to try to get her to come back.

I don't know how to get her to go to counseling or give me a shot without her getting upset with me. I want her to be happy, and I don't want to piss her off by pushing this issue - but at the same time, I really think we owe it to each other.

Im also in a very tough spot because, as a Christian, I strongly disagree with divorce, unless adultry has been committed etc. However, her mom and dad divorced when she was young and she has been around it her whole life. She is living with her mom right now who divorced when she was 19 "because she was too young" - sound familiar? The guy she was married to was an awesome guy but she gave up. Then her mom remarried and had Shannon; then 10 years later divorced again. Now she is in her third marriage with a guy who she hates more than anything - he uses her and treats her like garbage, but shes made nothing of herself financially in life and has to stay with the guy because she has nowhere to go. My wife's sister went through divorce as well. The only times my wife would talk to her mother about me were when things were going bad, and so now they have a warped understanding of who I am, and mixed with their bouts with divorce and beliefs on divorce, my wife is constantly being bombarded with the belief that divorce is the only means of solving problems in marriage. Her dad and step-mother who love me to death never talk to my wife, so the only influence that shes getting right now is one of hostility towards me, even though the things I've done are in every respect repairable. I'm sure this isn't helping her outlook on our marriage any. I just don't know what to do.

I found out about a month ago that she has been talking to a guy she slept with when she was 17 and he was 26 (...ugh) before we were together for about a year now behind my back. She was sending some people emails saying how a year ago when things were going heavy in our relationship and she was thinking about leaving that this guy that she has been talking to told her she could go move in with him - she said no because she wanted to work things out in our relationship at the time, and she expressed how she would have now because "she feels like she is wasting her time with me". When I found out about this (after she left me) I called her and simply asked, "Why didn't you tell me you were talking to Brian?" and she was dead silent on the phone, then in an outburst got extremely pissed at me and said that "If I ever called her again and accused her of anything, that she would hang up the phone and never speak to me again"...I didn't realize that asking a question of that nature is accusing in any shape or form. Then she yelled at me and said, "You're starting to make me hate you" even though all i did was ask her about this guy. She told me to fess up on how I got the information, which I simply told her someone let it slip, and she demanded that I tell her who told me "or else".

The next day she emailed me and was like, "Listen, I'm sorry I flipped out on you last night - I just wanted you to understand that Brian and I are just friends and that there's nothing to worry about" even though I read in her own words otherwise, and that "He is a family man who she would like to someday settle down with and start a family".

Its funny, because she said she just not started talking to this guy again, and shes all of a sudden gone from wanting to work on us to not at all. I find it funny how she feels this guy is so caring and everything else when he used her for sex when she was 17 (which was also rape by law), and then lied directly so me saying that "They were just friends". I don't know if shes done anything with him or not, I havent seen her in 3 weeks; but I do know that the last thing I heard from her own words before she found out that I knew what she was doing, was her saying to a friend that she was excited because they were getting together for dinner later this or next week.

Maybe there's more than one reason to why she has been acting lately like I don't even exist. It makes sense too now that I think about it, because before she separated from me, she asked me bluntly, "If I left you and later realized it was a mistake, would you let me come back?" Almost like she was asking permission to go try things with this guy and come back if things didn't work.

I don't even know what I'm supposed to do anymore - The very fact that shes been talking to this guy for over a year behind my back and has said that she "Likes him" when shes been married to me for like a year, and has been telling me how badly she wants kids and how much she loved me makes me wonder if this is even worth it - or if I'm just a back up plan now.

My wife had a history of running to guys for love and using sex as a means of getting them to give her attention before we were together; and during our relationship she expressed how bad she felt about it - but it almost seems like she might be falling back into it. Her mom did the same thing, and is now on her third marriage with a guy who uses her, and treats her like crap - but shes spent her whole life looking for men to take care of her that she has nothing and has to stay with him in order to sustain herself. Her mom was married young too and divorced her first husband who was a good guy because she was "too young".

Having you bring up that issue and reminding me of this guy in the equation is really messing with my head now...it certainly explains the split second change of emotion as far as how she looks at me now. I mean, last month she was saying how much she was madly in love with me and how excited she was for us to spend the rest of our lives together, and now this..

-Please give feedback, because now I'm even more confused about what to do; or if this guy is the case, if I should even stick around. I still love her - but if shes running around behind my back (even if things are tough...) then I don't know what i should do. Its ironic because the things she wrote about this guy were exactly how she talked about me before things got rough.

In the meantime, I'm going to go read those articles.

The other thing that really worries me is that we used to have each have one email address and we knew the passwords; well about a month ago she started a new one and made sure it was a password I couldn't guess. She emailed her friend and was like, "Im changing my email address (you know why)"

This also might switch things up, but about three months ago she started talking to a friend of mine's friend over instant messenger, and whenever I would ask her what she was doing she would get mad at me for "prying" or be like "stop watching over my back". She started talking to him more than we would talk, and I caught him calling her "cute" and stuff like that while he was talking to her -so I searched her old email address and sure enough they were talking behind my back - she was signing her emails "Love, Shannon" and saying how it was "Refreshing to flirt with someone else, because I 'didnt know how to do it'". After I saw these emails I told her that I didn't want her seeing this guy anymore; and she got so incredibly pissed off at me that she took off in the middle of the night and stayed the night at his house even though I was in tears begging her not to go. After that happened she told me for about 3 weeks that she didn't love me anymore and that we weren't going to work - so I told her that I was going to sleep in our quest bedroom for then on and leave her alone - but oddly enough when i went to the guest bedroom, she would beg me to come sleep with her because she was "lonely". About another week later, she was like, "Ive been confused, I do love you - I just didnt know what I wanted".

She said nothing happened with my friend's friend and that although she slept in his bed, she slept on the floor. After that she wanted me to let her go out and hang out with him (without me coming along) and she even made me let her go to his house at like 4pm, and she came home at like 1 in the morning. I confronted him about it, and basically told him if he ever touched my wife i'd kill him - soon thereafter, she caught him lying about things to try to save his own [censored], and from then on she (at least to my knowledge) never talked to him again, saying that he was a pig and that all she had wanted in him was a friend.

I'm 20 years old, she is 19. We got married when we were both 18. I have never been unfaithful to her, I really hope that she hasn't been.

Also, when I saw the messages she was writing to her girlfriend about this guy she wanted to see, she said she had never been unfaithful in our marriage; but it could have been her just trying to make herself feel better.

I've noticed weird things like this since the beginning of our relationship - I read something she wrote in her diary once (which I know I shouldn't have, but I can't take it back, and it happened a very long time ago) and it was in great detail about her having sex with a family friend (even talked about how the guy had a small penis but it still felt good) and when I asked her about it and about why she had never told me about this guy - she said that she made it all up in her diary and that it was a fantasy. Who fantasizes about a guy with a small wang? Especially when they go into descriptive detail about everything that happened. She even mentioned in her diary about how she felt like a whore a lot of the time...that doesn't sound like fantasy to me.

I think a lot of the reason why i began neglecting her in our relationship was because inside my heart I really saw what was going on and although I loved her was really hurt and didn't see her mirroring the emotions I was giving her and I began to stop feeling like I loved her at the moment because I was hurt inside. I do love her - I always have; but I just find myself wondering why she is doing this.

I know I did mess up in our relationship, but it doesn't justify these things.

Thank you for moving that over better.

If anyone has any advice or whatever else on this situation or on what I should do, I would love to know. I still love my wife but if this is an affair or heaven forbid, there has already been one - I don't know what to do.

Its hard for me to interpret her actions into a conclusion because I've never been in a situation like this, but perhaps some wiser people who can relate to this can help out.

Thank you, and God bless

-Fox

I guess I'll just keep this bumped for later...thanks guys.

bump

I have a really bad feeling that tonight is going to be a very lonely one. I think the hardest thing about this situation is going to bed alone after sleeping next to a warm body for the length of your marriage.

I hate this feeling inside. All day today I was feeling strong about this, and its like out of nowhere, I feel complete and utter despair again - sometimes it feels like tears are the only answer.

Hi FoxOr,

I'm very sorry for your situation.

I'm glad you've been moved over to GQII - there is much more traffic here, and you'll get some excellent advice.

Just to say Welcome again to MB! There'll be some vets along soon who'll take care of you.

I'm still learning myself, and I don't really feel that I have much advice to give, except to say hang in there!

Take care,

Alph.

The biggest thing that I'm worried about through all of this is when we finally get together in person again. It is looking like we are going to get together this Sunday for the first time in like three weeks.

She told me to "Go into it with a level-head" so that I don't have my heart-broken if we don't work things out. The biggest fear I have is not being able to find a way to ask her about reading about this website with me; and about going to counseling. I know that if we went through counseling things would probably work out - and I know that if she gave us a chance, we could begin restoring our Love Bank - we've spent our whole marriage winging it without help and its torn us apart.

Last time I talked to her on the phone I asked her if she'd go to counseling but she wouldn't budge on the issue. In her exact words, she said this to me a few nights back over e-mail:

"Again, that's great that all of these things are helping you become a better person and have more understanding, but don't get yourself mixed up in thinking that just because you are realizing all of these things that things between us are going to get fixed and we are going to stay together, Honestly, because I don't want to lie...at this point my thought is still that I don't really think I want to work on us any more than I already have, There has been a lot of damage done and most of the time I really do think that it is irreversible. I may not be able to look at you and feel the way that I used to anymore. It's just not the same to me"

--whether this is the result of an emotional affair or what have you, it looks like shes in a State of Withdrawal, and I don't know how to pull her out of it (if its even possible). I want to be able to be there for her as a husband this Sunday, but also as a friend - and I don't know how I'm supposed to act or what I'm supposed to say to bring up our marriage and trying to save us - because when I do, she gets pissed at me.

I don't know if I can talk to her about us without breaking down crying - I want to be strong about this; but I don't think I can talk to her about this without breaking down. And as far as this whole possible affair issues goes - do I just pretend like I don't know anything about it or do I bring it up? I know if I bring it up she'll just get angry with me, but in another sense it has to be talked about. I have absolutely no clue how I am supposed to approach this Sunday without making things worse.

Dear Fox,

Welcome to MB. Sorry you are hurting so. Sounds like U need a plan. A good one. Call Jennifer @ MB for some quick phone counseling. Jennifer can get you on a good plan A followed up with plan B if needed.

U have some reading t/d also. No one said it w/b easy but it is survivable.

BTW, how long have u 2 been together vs the A? Just curious.

take care,
L.

If by A you mean adultry, I don't quite know - I don't actually know if there has been anything committed - I trust her, and don't believe that there has been, but if you mean an emotional affair - we've been together a year and eight months, and she said to her friend that she began talking to this guy again last summer - so a year now.

Was it wrong for me to check her messages without her knowing when things were going wrong - I mean after all, she was hiding things from me. And we had always agreed to be honest with one another, even if it would make the other person upset - and she wasn't being honest.

I don't want all of these things that I'm saying to make her seem like a lying, decieving person. She has never been like that, and I still believe from the bottom of my heart that she is the greatest thing thats ever happened to me. I've never met anyone more kind and caring; nor anyone so sweet and fun to be around as her. She could always make the worst of my troubles disappear in a heart beat - she is a great girl, and I wish that I would have spent more time telling her that like I did in the beginning of our relationship instead of getting all upset over other things towards recency.

We all have problems in our lives; and what is going on between us isn't all her. I have caused an equal amount of pain in our marriage - after all, it takes two to tango.
I just felt it necessary to get that message across because she is a very sweet woman, and I miss her with all of my heart right now.

U miss your W. What you are dealing with is a WS. Adultery comes in the physical, mental and emotional forms. PA (physical affair) is just one of the types. EA (emotional affair) is another. Both bring great pain to a M. Both can lead to D. Both are what makes up adultery.

Your W may be the one you love and the one who was upright and honest but what she has become is not healthy for you, her or your M.

Right now you can't control, help or even educate her. Her WS side will not allow her to listen to you even for her own good. Like a rebellious child, she will use every tool at her disposal to further her A. Yep, she is having an affair if she is willing to put her R with this guy ahead of your M.

You though can use the tools here along with a good MC (preferably phone counseling with Jennifer from MB), to get a plan to get you on track with your life. To strengthen you so that if and when your W decides to come back, you w/b in a stronger position to know how to help her. 1st you must help yourself.

Read Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs by Dr. W. Harley. If she starts to get real ugly, read Love must be tough by Dr. James Dobson. Work with your MC who is versed in MB principals.

Improve yourself, expose, build your personal suppport system, work with your MC, get checked for STDs, secure your finances, read, post and vent here as needed, keep a journal and do not fall for her babble. Learn reverse babble and use it if you need to protect your love for your W, not the WS. Do not allow her to use you to enable the A. Learn what your EN and her ENs are. Take the emotional needs questionnaire, take it as if you are her as well.

Hope this helps.

take care,
L.

Do you two have cell phones? If so get the logs, some companies post the logs online, you can go back and start looking for numbers. Check the logs, look at minutes, look for long amounts of time spent on calls. Then make a note of those numbers, then start counting how many times they were called. Have a friend or someone call the numbers if you don't know them off hand. Use google as a reverse lookup if you need to. The numbers you suspect as questionable, look and see what the frequency is of calling from month to month to get a trend.

Fox,

I read the rest of your thread on Emotional Needs and now here when I logged in this morning.

It does sound like you are dealing with an Emotional Affair. I don't really have any advice to offer in that category, but hopefully you'll get a lot of good advice in this GQII Forum.

In my case, when I found out my wife wanted a divorce, it was from snooping in her secret email account. I didn't even know she had one until she showed me an email she got in it, so I decided to look at it and see what she really thought about me. It was easy to guess her password.

She had been talking to an old boyfriend, complaining about me and telling him she was going to divorce me as soon as she could. And she signed her emails "Love always". I thought I was dealing with an Emotional Affair, but fortunately it turned out not to be the case - partly because she didn't want to get involved with anyone else until she divorced me, and partly because her ex-boyfriend was just as much of a [censored] as I was.

I'll check in and see how you're doing, and I will pray for you.

All the best...

BTW, I felt a little guilt for snooping in her email, but not too much. My marriage was at stake.

We used to have a cell phone, but not anymore - however I don't know if she has one now or not. She said she has "bills" to pay, which means she is spending money on something. After we separated, we were already low enough on money, and she spent like $40 on something at a women's store. Then, after taking out half of the money in our bank account and starting her own bank account she continued to spend my half of the money and now I have $100 to my name - not to mention that our rent is in my name, so I'm getting stuck with the next two months of rent and she also expects me to pay our utilities.

I haven't been checked for STDs since we have been together, but I should, because half way through our marriage we discovered that she had HPV from a previous fling and needed corrective surgery. I got checked for HIV but lost my ID number and never got the results.

I closed my bank account and took out the little money I had left (she was still using it) and I have a full-time job now. I don't really think theres anyway for me to check and see what shes doing behind my back with this guy - nor do I know if its appropriate for me to snoop, I don't want to feel dishonest - and I want to instill trust with her - but is trust even reasonable anymore? A while back I asked her friend something but she blew me off and said "We're not talking about this, I'm not getting in the middle". I don't know the passwords to her things anymore because she changed all of them. What are some signs that she might be having an A, emotional, physical, or anything else? I find it really odd that she did a complete 180 in a matter of days as far as contemplating our future is concerned. She signed her emails "love" the first couple times after she left me, but now she doesn't even do that - and every single email she sends ends with the same emotionless tag "Hope all is well".
Then she won't email me for days on end and her excuse is "Sorry I havent emailed, I've been extremely busy" which is obviously a cop out - im sure she makes time to email her friends and Brian. We all know it takes 2 seconds to email someone. Not to mention call, which she obviously has no intention of doing it seems. I understand shes confused about things - but I think there are a whole lot more responsible ways of dealing with things during a potential divorce and current separation - she can't hide from me, this is something we HAVE to talk about, for none other practical purpose than at LEAST filing papers and divying up things.

I mean, I want to know what is going on - but everytime I check up on her I feel guilty, because she always gets extremely pissed when I look at things she is doing that she doesn't want me to - I think it is one of her LBs.

Do I even bring up this guy when we get together on Sunday? If I do it'll probably most certainly end any chance I have of getting her to give us a chance again - she's at a dangerously low point in her Love Bank right now - almost on the verge of a Hate Bank it seems. I don't want to act like nothing is wrong, but at the same time I want to be strong and give her her space. I hate pushing things - and shes really not in the mood to have me push things on her right now.

Ugh...


I just realized that the screenname I'm using is blatantly mine, and if my wife felt compelled to check this site she'd see everything I'm saying (which I have no problem with, I'm not trying to hide anything from her) but needless to say I fear it'd really piss her off..

The whole distant thing is what happened with me. W wouldn't go to counseling, didn't think it would help. I went myself anyways, it was good for me to get set with me. It was 7wks before my W actually decided to go. Results may vary

You have a great source for help here at MB.

The only problem with the whole time frame thing is that I go back to school which is nearly 400 miles away in 2.5 months. Its going to be extremely hard to regain anything from 400 miles away - wouldn't it? Not to mention that she is enrolled in the same school - and if she doesnt go she will lose her financial aid, etc.

One thing you sort of need to get over is the snooping thing. There are two outcomes of it, #1 you find what you fear most, you expose it and go from there. IF you love her unconditionally you will tell her you and she can get thru this.

#2 You find nothing and face the reality that it IS about you, about your behavior, and you need to regardless keep working on changing you. It's the only person you can change. The only way she will change, is by seeing your actions not words.

Also to #2, if there is nothing to hide, she shouldn't get irked at you, she may at first but if she really thinks about it, you are concerned about your marriage and needed to know. It's a gamble, but it's a choice you have to make.

But most important is get things right with you. You mentioned behavior that you thought may have caused problems, address that in counseling or on your own. Read the material here. Start with the concepts and or the article Why Women Leave Men. Go from there.

You spending all your time trying to get your wife back will do little if she actually comes back and you haven't spent any time working on your personal problems. If she comes back this momment, do you know what behavior problems you have, why you have them, how they affected your M, and how to stop them? If you do, you are WAY ahead of where I was in this whole mess and I commend you.

Work on her, but work more on you, when she see those changes things should start to come around. I know you are dealing with a possible EA and God forbid a PA, and it is a tough spot to be in. But you have to focus, get a plan of action together, and execute.

It's a crappy place to be, I know. You will hear this time and time again and it will be something you hate to hear, but it takes time. Just keep posting here. Have you emailed your friends and family about the situation? Not about the possible EA/PA but just that you and she are having problems? It helped to see the emails coming in about other couples we knew who had problems in their marriage and didn't give up.

All I can think of for now.

As far as working on myself - I hear ya. I'm enrolled with a counselor at the moment and am working on myself as a person and my problems, first and foremost (after all, if my W leaves me, I still need to fix these things for the future.) I have read the articles on this site on ENs and LBs, and especially the Why Women leave Men article, which hit a little too close to home.

I think a main reason why I am really concerned about the timing of this split up and trying to figure out things now based mainly on the financial and geographical circumstance that we are in. If she doesn't come back, she will drop out of school over here (or at least miss a semester) This will force her to start paying back her student loans, and mixed on top of other things, I don't want to end up taking credit damage over any financial obligations she might or might not be able to meet.

When I see her in person, would be it dumb of me to bring up this whole A situation and let her know that I'm concerned about what's been going on and that she explain or should I not even bring it up?

I wouldn't bring up the A until you have proof of it. You are just guessing right now. She will spin circles around you have you convinced you are crazy. You need good strong proof. Once you have that proof, you don't tell her what it is or where it came from. Just know you you have it!

People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

People in a marriage are not entitled to 'privacy' according to Dr. Willard Harley. Don't feel guilty for snooping. People in A's lie. She has lost her credibility. You can't trust her. Dr. Harley says we shouldn't trust our spouses 100%.

I am sorry for the pain your are experiencing so early in your marriage. In a sane world, you would still be newlyweds and should have been 'happy'.

I know you probably won't want to hear this... but, from what you said about her, her history, her mother's history, and sister's...and since you don't have any children...I would say cut your losses and move on. Especially, since you do not have children.

She sounds like an immature 19 yr old girl. She may have been excited about the idea of getting married but she didn't understand the reality of the commitment she was supposed to be making: her vows...to forsake all others. She doesn't understand the bounderies that are necessary to protect a marriage. She may have romanticized being in love without understanding that it is a decision and not just a feeling. When one believes it is just a feeling then they are more likely to want to move on when things get tough or their feelings are waning. Relationships take work and nurturing to endure all the ups and downs of life. Good marriages just don't happen...they are created through care and lots of attention. It seems like she was treating your marriage as though it was just like going steady or 'hooking up' in high school.

All that said, there are concepts on this site, in Dr. Harley's books, as well as other books, and through counseling that can help you to recover with or without her.

I hope you or someone else can get the message to her that she should earn her way out of your marriage by giving the effort necessary to try to save it. Did she have a relationship with her father?

Listen to Orchid.

Read all about Plan A and B, and the four rules for a successful marriage. Work on yourself. Work on getting emotionally stronger again. This is less about you than it is about her and her character and immaturity. Yes, you need to look at your part in what EN's of hers you may not have been meeting etc. Sometimes early in marriage we fall into the roles that were modeled for us, unfortunately, your wife did not have a healthy model in her life...in her mother.

That is a tough one that I can't really answer. Most will say expose it, but I would gather intel. That is me, not you, and not the opinion of anyone else but me. But this is serious stuff. Where does your W sit on her Faith? You mentioned it about yours earlier, but what about her?

One thing I did was constantly talk about the M when I first saw my W. I was seeing her at a rate of about once every two weeks at best. There are a few big posts of mine describing the ordeal back in the EN section. Talking too much about the R didn't seem to help much. I started backing off some, just talking about misc stuff. It doesn't always have to be "hey when are we getting back together" If she asks questions, then answer. Like, how was counseling? Fine, I talked about X. It took 7 weeks before we spent the weekend together again. The first two weeks were rough, she said very similar things to what your W wrote in her email. About not sure if things will work out, not getting hopes up.

Let her see you are working on you, if it is opening the door for her, do it. There are a lot of things that I never did much for my W, like opening the car door for her, I do it all the time now.

You sich is a bit different, I had a list of bad habits I had that she sent me that frustrated her. There were more but I think her hands hurt from typing. I was able to try and address those. Not sure what has been written in your emails, but perhaps you can gather some idea of what your W is needing.

I think there may be a maturity level thing going on as well, I do not like assuming or making judgements, but the age thing could be it. You guys are still really young, but don't get me wrong, many couples get together that young and stay together. What type of person was she before you met, party girl, traditional girl, run of the mill normal? She may have enjoyed the whole idea of having a kid and marriage but now thinks different because of something that has happened.

I am grasping at straws, but feel your pain and confusion. It sucks, I know. Keep reading and learning, keep working on you, and keep praying. Gotta run.

I have tried telling her this, but she is insanely stubborn when it comes to things. She has been telling people that "I will never change" when she hasn't even given me a chance to. She won't try counseling, I'm 20 years old and she is the only girl I've ever been with - I'm still learning about myself, her, and our relationship, so for her to leave based on the fact that "I will never change" is hardly an inadequate excuse in my eyes.



Yes, but no - it wasn't a healthy one. She was forced to live with her father against her will because of divorce precedings, and based on the fact that her father was given custody of her as a child. At the time, neither of her parents seemed ready to support my wife in their life; her mom was unstable financially and independently and relied on men to take care of her; she couldn't possibly support a 10 year old daughter at that point - not to mention the neglect she showed her during her childhood while, instead of developing a proper relationship with her daughter, she was spending time out with men. My W's father physically abused her as a kid, however, the more I've come to hear from her father's side of the story and her step-mother who have both exercised better judgment and maturity (as far as making decisions and evaluating our marriage is concerned) has almost made me wonder how serious the abuse really was and how much of it has been exaggerated in my wife's head. Now, that isn't for me to judge - and if she said that her dad beat her, I believe her; and I do feel extremely bad that things happened the way she said they did. Because no child deserves to be beaten; and certainly not the girl I love more than anything. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My W has always been influenced by her mom's thinking - after all, in her eyes - what mommy says goes. (A prime example of this was when she was debating on whether or not she wanted to take a break from one another during the summer). Divorce wasn't even mentioned at that point; and then, her mom called, and about an hour later after she hung up the phone; my wife had flipped a complete 180 and was saying how she didnt think we would work. Her mom's view of men is so skewed because of her own mistakes and decisions in her life, that she immediately condemns all men as selfish pigs who want nothing more than sex and their own greedy ambitions; it would probably help her if she had made something of herself instead of rushing into children and destroying any opportunity to make a steady career for herself - now she's dependent on her third husband who she has caught cheating on her in order to live. No wonder she hates men.

My W claims that her father beat the living tar out of her when she was a kid and that he has a horrible temper and that hes the biggest scumbag on the face of the earth - which is ironic, because I've never seen an ounce of anger in the man; he's never showed hostility towards me before; and quite frankly looks at me like I was his own son. I don't doubt that he did physically touch my W when she was young however the line between abuse and discipline is a thin one these days. I asked her step mom about it, and she laughed. She asked me, "If B actually was a child abuser, do you think I would knowingly marry him and bring my 3 kids into his house?". She said that half of the time what my W referred to as "abuse" was her dad restraining her because my W was so out of control at the time (age 10) that he had to use physical means to calm her down and get her in line.

Hearing these things didn't surprise me. Two weeks before my wife and I married, she was diagnosed with Graves Disease, a disease that, untreated, can be fatal. I drove 400 miles home from school during finals week to be with her and to give her love and support, because naturally - i was fearful that something might happen to her. When she went to the hospital and was diagnosed, the doctor told her that she was in a critical state; one where if a fever developed, would kill her. She was given NONNEGOTIABLE orders to stay under bed rest for five days before she got up and was moving around again - this was for her own safety. Well, when i got to her house, I laid in bed with her for like three days in a row, I got her her food, took care of the things we needed; we just spent quality time together while she stablized. Around the fourth day however, she began to get very irrate. She would get out of bed to go get things, and began walking outside, etc. Her mom and I both told her that she shouldn't be getting out of bed, especially in the state that she was in; however, my W got extremely pissed off at us, exclaiming that "we had no clue what it was like to spend 5 days in bed, and that we needed to stop controlling her and telling her what to do." according to her "she knew her body well enough to know if she was well enough to get out of bed". After hearing this I tried to explain to her that it wasn't really negotiable and that she needed to get back into bed - at which point she stormed off into the rain and began crying for some reason of frustration, and began walking down the street in her PJs down the road. This obviously scared the living tar out of me and I panicked - knowing full well that her resting heart rate at the time for over 145 beats a minute (RESTING!). I pleaded with her to come back, and told her that if she didn't come back I would call the cops and have them bring her back for her own good; because I wasn't going to grab her or force her into anything. She then started yelling at me, cussing, and began to run at full stride down the road in the ran. I panicked even more and ran behind her telling her to stop, at this point i was in tears - I was so incredibly confused and frustrated as to why it was so hard to just stay in bed for two more days. As I caught up to her, she screamed in my face and told me that if I didn't leave her alone she was going to "kill herself" and that she would "leave me". After sternly telling her that I wouldn't let her go walk outside alone and end up hearing later that she had collapsed somewhere and died, she proceeded to swing at me, hit me twice in the face as hard as she could and started hitting me in the chest. Finally after about an hour of walking, and an emotional breakdown, I got her to come home.

There was also another incident where she pinned me up in the bathroom of her mother's house after we got into an argument and I told her that I needed to leave so I could cool down and not say something I didn't mean, and in the process of leaving, she pushed me into the bathroom, through the door and jammed my hip into the jagged edge of the bathroom counter. I sternly pushed her against the bathroom door with no violent intentions and looked in the face saying "Never hit me or push me again". After finally standing up for myself in this manner and letting her know that I was through letting her hit me and forcing herself on me, she flipped out, started screaming at me, and told me to "Get the ---- out of the house" She grabbed my things, threw my stuff out the window into the rain, rolling several expensive objects down the hill; she then proceeded to push me into the corner near her backdoor as I went to retrieve my things, trying to lock me out of the house - which I lived in as well. I told her that I hadn't done anything wrong and that she had no right to lock me out of a house that we were both living in; explaining to her that I was part of her mom's family too now. As I tried to push my way back into the house, her family's rottweiler who unfortunately, has grown up with her and not me heard her yelling at me and saw her pushing me into the corner, and proceeded to sink its teeth into my thigh as I began to bleed all over the place. I eventually decided that it wasn't worth it and went to go call a friend to let me leave for the day - instead, she grabbed the phone out of my hands, threw it at the wall breaking it, and told me to "get the ---- out again" I finally decided that it wasn't worth the effort, and let her lock me out of the house.

After she locked me out of the house; she called her mom, told her "I hit her" and proceeded to have her mom call the police on me. They showed up, took one look at the situation, saw that I was bruised on my knee, my thigh, and was bleeding badly from my leg - and that she wasn't even marked, and split us up.

I've spent this whole marriage being villified in the eyes of her mother and her mother's side of the family. The only times she tells her mom anything about me is when things go wrong, and half of the time shes irrate and overexaggerates everything. We don't even have our own business anymore - she can never settle anything between us, she always go to her mom. So, naturally now, her mom is telling her to leave me; because she's got this over-inflated image of me as a Woman-hating typical man scumbag, because after all - in her mom's eyes - all men are scum.

Looking; before she was with me - she was an accumulation of things. She had two "serious" boyfriends in high school, one of 9 months, one of 11 - both of them threw her out like she meant nothing in the end, and never gave her a reason why they didn't want to be with her anymore (according to my wife. I obviously wasn't there, so I only hear her side of things, but I believe her.)

After her second boyfriend left her, she began sleeping around with guys she had only known for days - looking for love? I don't know. She slept with a guy that was 9 years older than her when she was 17 (which is illegal, of course.) A guy that was 8 years older than her when she was 18, and who she'd only known two weeks. She also proceeded to do things with a guy she'd only known for three or four days, and then, came to me proclaiming that she had been used by so many guys. She would go out dancing with her friends at clubs in high school, grinding and the sorts; and when we first started dating dressed very scantily (which when I let her know that it upset me, especially when her chest was completely visible when she bent over - and she got pissed off at me; calling me controlling.

I recall in an email she sent to someone during her process of entering the Withdrawn Phase (i think thats what it was called), she told someone that "She wanted her old life back" but then she proceeded to tell them in the same email that "She wanted to settle down with someone and have kids and a family" - I'm sorry, but both aren't possible.

I'm caught up in this whole situation thinking to myself and wondering...

If my W asks for a D and leaves me without trying to fix things - if someday she asks to come back, would I be setting myself up again if I let her? Especially if this possible A is influencing her decision?

WHOA!!!

Now things are starting to get little serious. You are in an abusive relationship dude! The time away is probably healthy and safe for you.

A good friend of mine was in a R like this, she was a stripper, low self esteem, had a problem with cutting herself, possibly sleeping around with my friend while she lived 3 hrs away and went to school. She would flip out at times, had a drug problem, once she took a hammer to his new truck and beat the hell out of it. She has been diagnosed with BP disorder.

We pleaded with him to leave the R, that it was dangerous. Finally after about a year and a half or two he left for good. You need to protect yourself. She may not be like what you described anymore, but [email]d@mn[/email] man, be careful with this one.

If there was abuse in her life growing up, maybe you are the one she wants to take it out on. Maybe she wants to drive you away. I haven't a clue on this, this IS NOT my area. I have zero experience with this, but just from the stoires SHE NEEDS help. You have some big choices to make now my friend. I hope someone on here with more experience can guide you, keep posting and keep safe.

Although I'm aware that abusive relationships are not healthy, the last time she hit me was over a year ago. We talked sat down seriously and talked about it and she never did it again. I wish she wasn't so close-minded to alternatives other than divorce, let alone just getting counseling for herself and not us. I'm not afraid to admit I have issues and I need counseling - its frustrating to see that she's so different.

I have to agree with L4.

I know this isn't very MB advice...you can still attempt to follow that program if you choose.

I even think that there is a possibility that she may have been sexually abused as a child...maybe one of her mom's boyfriends? She may be bi-polar manic depressive or some other type of mental disorder. In the short time you've been together you have had a very volatile relationship.

In some ways the things she says are very much indicative of a WS. They can seem like aliens have abducted them.

The distance between you is probably good. I can't see this changing overnight. She really could use some intense IC.

I don't think you can save her when she doesn't want to be saved. You certainly can't educate her. She can't really hear you. She is an addict if she is in an EA/PA. Are you sure she isn't doing drugs...crack or meth? Sounds possible.

You are probably right in thinking that if she decided to come back at some point down the road and get back with you that she would eventually fall back into the same pattern of behavior, either abuse, A's, or drug abuse or addiction. By then you may have children together and that would be tragic. You really don't need this in your life.

You can have a better life than this. You are young and you sound like you have a good head on your shoulders and a good heart.

I know you love her and want the best for her, but you can do better than to be with this crazymaker. She may be doing you a favor if she is determined to D.

I don't like wargaming like this, making judgements and such because I DON'T know your W. But this isn't just your behavior driving her to leave. In your first posts it seemed like it could be. But you are dealing with a lot of issues on her part. You may have your own, you need to work on those, but the ones she has, you can't fix. It is up to her.

She may like chaos in her life, becoming married, being in a loving M and having a stable life may be so stange to her that she had to create chaos to feel normal and stable. Much like the life she grew up in. The norman rockwell life may be so foreign to her that she can't take it.

I saw that only because it kinda is how I felt around my W's family. They are really nice, have a good tiem together...normal. Mine on the other hand it a little more rough around the edges. Being around her family was foreign to me. Made me feel weird or out of place sometimes.

What does your W's dad say in all this. Does he know of the abuse by her on you? I know you say this was one time a year ago, but still, that worries me. That combined with the lack of self respect makes me think there are deeper issues she has that have never been addressed. Maybe your marriage brought these to the surface. Where are other family members in this circle? Are they like the mom and dad?

Good post, L4ac,
I think you are on to something with your assessment that a Norman Rockwell family life may be foreign to her etc. and that she may need chaos to feel normal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I just know that in my M the most communication we did was when we argued. Other than that it was small talk. My step dad and mom did the same thing. That was their affection. I think on some level I was doing the same thing in my M. It wasn't that I didn't want to just sit down and talk for no reason, I just for some stupid reason could argue easier than simply talking with my wife about her day at work.

Guys - I can express how important what you are doing here by talking to me is. I will reply shortly, I have to take care of somethings really quick first.

Dr. Harley says: "Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness".

So, if you think about that before you open your mouth that may help you break that habit of poor communication.

Read the book Love Busters with your W, if you haven't already done so. HNHN's too of course. Both address communication.

There are techniques that you can learn to improve your communication with your spouse; also addresses conflict resolution techniques. Harville Hendrix teaches it in his book "Getting the Love You Want" or the seminars by the same name as facilited usually by other psychologists. Gary Smalley explains something similar in his books and seminars on marriage. Also, Drs. Les and Leslie Parrot in their book 'Love Talk'. You basically learn to listen, feedback what you hear and make sure they know that you heard them, or 'got it'. You can look them up.

Actually, yes my W was sexually molested so to speak by her cousin when she was like 6 years old; albeit he was only 7 - but she remembers it to this day, and told me several times how much it bothered her. After those things happened, he did it again when she was 10 years old. She also mentioned a time when she was 16 when she went to the doctor for a physical, and it was a male doctor.

-------The following might offend some people, so if you don't want to be offended or have a weak stomach, please don't read it.-------------


She sorta broke down once when we were in the car; I don't remember what exactly brought the topic up, but she mentioned how one time when she was 16 she was getting a physical at the doctor's office for swimming season and her mom came in with her. She said that the doctor, who I mentioned was male, stuck his fingers in her and probed around almost like he was getting off on it. She recalled feeling violated and wanted the guy to stop, but her mom later told her to stop freaking out and that there was nothing to worry about. She seemed extremely upset by it; and had mentioned refusing to ever see a male doctor again, and when faced with our kids, she mentioned never letting them (if we had them) see a male doctor (our girls anyways).

I don't know if that has anything to do with the way she's been acting or not - it wasn't talked about a whole lot. But she has expressed several times how hurt she was by what happened with her cousin as well who forced her to touch his and his friend's penises while she was younger, and other nasty things like that. She remains friends with him till this day, I remember when I met him I wanted to beat the living ---- out of him more than anything, but she made me promise not to bring it up, nor to do anything about it so I bit my lip out of respect for her and said nothing. Needless to say it ruined that night.

As far as her dad is concerned, I haven't brought up her hitting me to him. I know she doesn't do drugs - she tried marijuana once and absolutely hated it; neither of a drink nor do we smoke. So I don't think its a matter of drugs. Although, one time when I was being tested for depression and trying out different medicines she did mention that she felt like she had some form of medical depression but she never followed up on it.

I want you all to understand that she isn't a bad person - she's been through a lot, and she's not a "crazy" - although, she may act like it, its not because shes crazy by nature...just unfortunate circumstances have hurt her as a person and influenced who she's become. I'm sure she'd say the same thing about some of the things I've done or said in our relationship.

I see myself thinking more clearly now about the future and about how serious this situation actually is however. I think its time to stop dicking around and straight up set down some ultimadems (sp?). I have spent this entire marriage clinging to her; number one because I love her. Nothing will ever change the fact that I love her - I don't want to see her life spiral downhill, and I've always wanted whats going to best for her. But in the same respect, I haven't spent enough time thinking about what this situation is doing to me and my life.

I made a pact with myself before I ever met her that no matter what, I would graduate from college unlike my mom and dad. My mom, a heroin addict - and my dad, a dead beat who left after I was born are two people who although I love by genetic nature, never want to be like. I saw, and experienced first hand the hurt and the pain that their bad decisions caused me as a person, and never EVER want to put someone, let alone my own kids through that ----. NO ONE deserves that. If our marriage is going to destroy me emotionally, I can't sit around and let that happen. I love her more than anything, and I want it to work out - but if shes not willing to take the steps to help herself, and continues to treat us like a high school relationship by running around talking to guys behind my back and changing all of her passwords then I'm through, as much as it hurts - I NEED to step up and FINALLY be a man about this. I let her hit me and stuck around; I let her sleep at a guys house overnight even though I was in tears begging her not to leave and she did anyways - leaving me in the house by myself all night, knowing that it was tearing me apart inside. And I let her come back like it never happened. I'm better than that, and I deserve more than that.

I will always be there for her, because I don't want to see her get hurt or end up making a decision that she will regret for the rest of her life - but its also something she has to do herself. I can't change her for her; she needs to change her for herself.

Its tragic really, because when we married we agreed from the bottom of our hearts that we were going to beat the odds and that we weren't going to end up like our parents; because we've both strived our entire lives to "break the cycle", and ironically enough, she told her friend that leaving me was what she needed to be happy, and what she needed to do to "break the cycle" when in turn, in my humble opinion, she is falling into the same cycle her mom did however many years ago when she divorced the best guy that had ever happened to her.

And as far as her getting mad at me for not getting her pregnant - how can she expect to be committed to a child when she can't even commit to a marriage, or at least, even try counseling, or attempting to save it. She just gunna run out when she decides her kids aren't fun too?

Ultimatums are not usually the best way to go.

You can establish clearer bounderies as to what is or is not acceptable for you as you are reflecting on the mistakes you made in the past. It is good to learn to stand up for yourself and be a man. Women, generally, respect a man more for that, than deferring all the power in the relationship to her. They seem to want the power but then will turn on you as your wife has done. You can still be firm and still be loving, caring, and calm. Be the lighthouse.

I'm just mainly concerned that when we get together Sunday I approach things from the right direction. I want to express to her that I want to save things - but I also want to express that she needs to stop fiddling around, the clock is ticking and we don't have forever to figure these things out. Either she's coming back to college with me or not; if she does or not will affect my housing situation as we were in Family Housing.

As far as the prospect of her running around talking to guys behind my back and changing all her passwords on me; that is bothering me a ton, but I don't know how to or if I should even bring it up. Like i said - the most important thing Sunday is that I make an impression on her that I'm not the jealous, neglectful guy I was for that span of time in our relationship after things started getting bad.

In her own words, she "doesn't know if she trusts me in our relationship, let alone herself anymore". I want to be able to espress to her how important it is that we do get counseling, if anything just for ourselves as people - and I don't know how to convince her that she has a problem, much like I, and that its not going to get solved without help, much like our marriage won't.

I'm just confused in general about how to tackle Sunday. I don't even feel like I can talk to her seriously about us as husband and wife anymore because she just seems to get irritated now.

Trix is right, you aren't ready for the trump card yet.

My W and I said the same thing about beating the odds and not being like our parents, we said that yet never did anything to try and accomplish that. Well she sort of did but I didn't. She tried and tried but it took the seperation to make me see it. But that is my sich.

I think you have a good grasp of what needs to be done, you are just starting this journey and it's not gonna be an overnight thing.

yes your wife has done some things that disrespect your marriage. You both chose to honor your marriage, you need to be the one who tries the carry you both thur this. Protect yourself but make sure you do everything you can first.

It's so hard to try and give advice on your sich, cause there are a lot of facets to deal with. I would suggest keep with the IC, let her know you are going, maybe send her an email or two during the week. Go from there. It's about all you can do.

This story has become much more than it started out as, you telling it is a good step. You are still young and yes you have plenty of time to start a new future, but doing that this quickly into things is the easy way out.

You guys should have been in cousneling LONG ago, but hey so should I have gone before my W and I got married, I regret that a LOT.

You are in a tough spot yes, but you might be able to pull it off.

I'm really worried about going into this situation meeting with her on Sunday with the very thought of a possible A on my mind. I don't know how I'm going to look her in the eyes and not bring it up or not get emotional about it or even just showing that something is seriously wrong when I talk to her on Sunday. I know that looking at her knowing that shes lying to me about going to dinner with him, and about being "more than friends" with him, while I talk to her is going to physically affect my mood and the way I act when we get back together to talk.

I don't know how I'm going to keep my composure and talk to her seriously while trying to express to her how important it is that we both seek counsel for this knowing that, for all I know, she could be leaving after she talks to me to go hang out with this guy. I feel inside like she's treating this like a high school fling - the talking behind my back, the changing of the passwords...everything. I dont know how I'm supposed to go into this Sunday, not at all - and I'm so scared that I'm going to mess it up really bad. i want to express my concern for the situation shes getting herself into, but I cant seem to find a way of doing it without looking like I'm "a" being clingy, "b" wanting her to come back, of "c" insulting who she is as a person, because I know if I bring her issues up she'll get pissed at me.

Ugh...I need to head to work now, I won't be back till late tonight, but please - reply. I need all of the wisdom I can get heading into this weekend - it could possibly be the most important conversation I ever have.

Nothing you tell her is going to make her trust you again. BUT that doesn't mean that it cannot be earned back. Little by little. I still don't know if that trust is being earned back with my W. But everytime we have a good time together a little bit gets deposited in her bank...in theory.

Read the concepts, don't start making demands. I think she is probably well aware of her college issues. Demanding that she come back by the start of the semester isn't going to put anything good in her mind except, this guy is trying to control me and tell me what to do.

Tread softly, you have to.

Do you excercise? Run, workout, anything like that. You ought to. I started running with the dog everyday, it was good. Now I am running and playing tennis, hadn't played that in 10yrs. I'll post more later, had a project come in.

She will receive just about anything you say about her choices , behavior and issue as disrespectful judgements (DJ's). If you insist on her returning with you she may see it as a selfish demand. Sad, but she probably won't be able to hear you.

Try to speak from your heart, how you feel. You can express how much her actions have hurt you and your marriage. You can, if you haven't already, take responsibility for your part in the bad parts of your marriage and the changes you are implementing to improve yourself.

You can remind her about the promises you both made and the hopes you both had when you started out and see if you can give her hope that you can have a better marriage than you had before all this.

You can say that your marriage needs to be put first before any other friendship. You can let her know that having intimate relationships, where you share details about your marriage with people of the opposite sex are inappropriate and not condusive to protecting your marriage. This applies to either of you. Keeping bounderies like that are to protect your marriage. It is part of the decision to love.

If you can learn some of Orchid's reverse babble before your meeting that may help. Look in the signature on her posts for the link. I understand that she may not be 'crazy'...I said 'crazymaking'...as in creating chaos and unnecessary drama.

Plan A is used to end the A and draw the WS back to marriage. Plan B is for you and to protect the love you have for her.

Part of this has to do with how much patience you may have to wait out these other relationships. They may need to run their courses. She doesn't seem to have a long attention span anyway. But, there is always the risk that she may get into a pattern of using you as a doormat to rescue her in between her straying. You don't want enable her to continue that kind of behavior. You certainly don't want to make babies with her until she has gotten some help or had an epiphany.

In rereading your intial post on the first page I would guess that your wife is in an affair and further I would assume that it is a PA and not just EA's. Could be more than one. It isn't a good sign that she is protective of her email accts, passwords, and IM's. She has something to hide. She probably being dishonest which goes with the territory. Her quick quick change in behavior is a big red flag in this area. It is very typical in affairs. You didn't really think things were that bad in your relationship and now,according to her, you are all to blame for the state of marriage. That is right from the WS script. She can not be trusted to tell you the truth about anything right now.

When she was going out and spending the night with an OM or when she stayed out late...those are very telling. Trust what your gut is telling you...that is that she has probably been doing stuff behind your back. That is also why she doesn't seem to be remorseful or going through any withdrawal from you. That would because she is with others. People generally don't flip flop like that overnight. Usually, the one dumped feels worse than the one doing the dumping...especially with a replacement(s) already in the wings.

It sounds like she is heading toward making a mess of her life...following in her mom's footsteps.

If she is also a Christian would she be willing to talk to a pastor with you? It would really help if she could regain her faith and walk with God..if she already had that before.

You know what,

I'm through with this. I'm sick of getting e-mails void of emotion - she still hasn't called me, and all of a sudden "she mixed up, and is actually working on Sunday" bull.

I'm through with this - I'm beginning to wonder if she's ever loved me, and if she did - if it even meant anything. How someone can go from pouring out their heart and soul and loving someone to death and then shutting them out emotionally like they never meant anything to them is beyond me. I'm so incredibly hurt inside, especially knowing that she's out having an A, and that I'm assuming she pretty much lied about her entire "converting to christianity" just to impress me.

I got another e-mail tonight from her after not hearing from her for about 3 days, and it was like 4 lines long. Every thing she says to me is completely different, shes not even the same person anymore.

I've never felt so incredibly betrayed that I wasn't even sad - I think its safe to say that she has killed any love I've ever felt for her now.

I'm bringing up everything when we get together - I'm not trying to save anything, I'm going to tell her exactly how it is and how stupid and immature she is being, because she's going to ruin her life; and its a slap in the face that she's leaving me, the only guy who has ever tried to be there for her as a person and for who she is. The fact that she told me I was her soulmate, all the cards, all the kisses, the making love - its all been ruined; its like I can't even remember what it was like now.

Wow...I don't even know what to say, or how to express how upset I am right now. I spent all nine hours at work today miserable worrying about her in my heart, worrying about our relationship, and shes probably been off having sex with her fling. You know what...maybe when she gets pregnant she sees how much she hates what she's become she'll wise up - but it doesn't look like its going to happen.

If she showed ANY compassion for me whatsoever, let alone ANY REMORSE about what she is doing to me right now I could forgive her - but I can't anymore.

I tried, and I was willing to give it everything, but enough is enough and I'm not going to sit here and let her toy with me anymore. Yeah, I did mess up in our relationship; but it was never intentional, I've always loved her and wanted the best for her - we are all human, and if she can't except me for who I am, let alone who i WAS, then she can quite frankly take her "Please be my friend" and shove it. Her asking me to be her friend when she doesn't even seem to WANT a friendship from me is pathetic and embarassing.

I'm going to bed - I pray to God that one day I'll be able to look at her like the girl that I fell in love with, and the girl that i wanted to be the mother to my children - but I don't know if that is going to come for a long time, let alone ever.

-Aaron

I'm half way tempted to just e-mail her and be like "So, have many times have you f----- Brian so far? And why have you been lying to me about seeing him?"

I'm sorry - but the realization that she's messing around behind my back, which I had been holding hope to for so long that she wasn't (i was in denial that our relationship wasnt going to work because she had completely changed as a person) has completely destroyed my insides. I almost HATE her right now, yet there's this incredibly small voice in the back of my head saying "Dont do something that you will regret later and might ruin the chance of you two ever working again."

Why am I so hesistant? Isn't it obvious that she doesn't give a [censored] about me anyways and has lost all emotional connection with me? So why am I even trying? Why do I even care what I say to her anymore? Is it because I am still in love with her, unlike she with me?

Maybe after we sign the papers and she still expects me to be her friend I'll just send her a letter in the mail on our two year anniversary saying "I just wanted to let you know that if you ever decide to grow up and realize that you are making the biggest mistake of your life, give me a call - but until then, if ever, goodbye."

MAN! after EVERYTHING we've shared, and all of the intimacy she does this? How the hell does someone do this to another person? I honestly don't understand why its so flippin' hard to be FAITHFUL. God, at least get a divorce before you go nail someone else. The pathetic thing is, I told her once "If you ever stop loving me, or if you ever cheat on me - just tell me. I'd be a whole lot less hurt if you just told me" and she was like "I would tell you, but I would make sure I divorced you before I did" ....laugh.

And in response - NO she isn't a Christian; at least her actions don't show it. She wasn't a Christian when we started dating, but she saw Christ through me (before I started messing up) and came to God; asking Him into her heart. Now, whether or not that was genuine, I don't think so. I think she just did it to make herself feel better around me. She "repented" for the things in her past, yet got pissed at me when I wanted to know what was going on. When I told her divorce isn't part of God's plan she started yelling at me and told me that "Maybe I don't believe in God like you." a Christian friend of hers called her and tried to tell her that divorce wasn't the only answer to things and that she was worried about her - and my W bitched at ME for her calling. Sorry that people care, you know?

Man - Satan is messing with her so badly right now, shes a completely different person. And the fact that shes messing with people behind my back has ripped out any respect I ever had for her. Minutes from now I'm going to become more depressed than I've ever been in my life. Knowing that the most amazing happiness I've EVER FELT IN MY LIFE was a LIE is the most horrible thing that I've EVER felt in my life. Its like EVERY SINGLE MEMORY of the last two years has instantaneously become a NIGHTMARE that two days ago were the things holding me in this relationship.

To quote Jimmy Eat World; "Oh God, please don't tell me this has been in vain. I need answers for what all the waiting I've done means."

Now I know why even though we had sex for over 5 months without a condom or birth control that she never got pregnant; God has been watching over me - the fact that she had a miscarriage wasn't an accident; I refuse to believe that. I was blind for so long as to how badly I was being used, and I thank God that I was lucky enough to avoid fathering a child into this. Praise Him in all His Glory forever and ever Amen.

......



The more I think about this, the sicker I get. Not only has this past two years now become a waste; not only have I poured every ounce of heart and soul I had into this relationship; but now she's going to be going to school for free because of me.

My mom is a heroin addict with no money and I don't know my father. Neither of them have income, so I was awarded a full financial ride to school through the FAFSA. When she married me, she received the same award - and now because she's married me, even if she divorces me and even though she wasn't eligible for any financial aid before we were married, she will get a full ride to whereever she wants to go.

.....I cannot believe this.....

........oh my God.

ugh, I wish I had just one bit of solid proof that she was messing around behind my back - because until then, I'm not going to be able to recover from this and begin the healing process. I need to know 100% for sure that she has had an A so I can move on with my life and get this sick notion out of my head that shes still the girl that I fell in love with and that (if she ever even loved me because she loved me, or because she loved the idea of being married).

It all makes sense now. I don't think she ever loved ME - she was in love with the notion that someone was head over heels in love with her for once and wasn't using her. She was in love with the notion of having a baby - she was PLAYING HOUSE.

It all fits perfectly now. Things were perfect in our relationship in the beginning. She ALWAYS initiated sex (i dont even want to call it love making anymoe). For the first few months of our relationship she jumped on me EVERYDAY; I had to practically HOLD HER OFF ME, which is saying a lot for a guy. I could easily seduce her into making love, even a little nibble of the ear and she would collapse. Then, she just stopped having sex with me. I began to have to practically beg for it. When I would nibble on her she would tell me to stop unlike before, and almost seemed annoyed. In my eyes, I felt like she didnt love be because she no longer seemed to desire me. That is what really caused my depression - not my blood pressure, but I never wanted to tell her, I knew she'd get pissed at me. I stopped spending time with her because I saw that she didn't even really care anymore. Why this pissed her off, I don't know - because it was obvious for the longest time that I simply "Got old" to her.

Man, now that the initial anger is subsiding i feel more empty inside than I've ever felt. I don't even feel human anymore. I've been lied to by my mom; had her sell my things for drugs - had her force me into the car when I was 7 while she was drunk against my will and almost died. My dad never gave a [censored] about me and stopped sending me birthday cards from jail when I was 8. When I was 10, TWICE I had to save my mom's life after overdosed in the middle of the night by running to complete strangers houses crying, begging for help. I've been thrown into several foster families because my mom couldn't care for me - but I've NEVER, EVER in my life felt betrayal or hurt like this before. I don't know if the tears are going to come or not, because for the first time in my life, I'm so sad that I can't cry - and that is something I never in my life thought could ever happen.

God, please tell me there's another explanation for her sudden emotional detachment and all of the other things than A. Every sign points to A, but God I don't want to believe it. WHY IS SHE DOING THIS TO ME? She's acting UNHUMAN when less then a month ago she was saying [censored] like this in her emails,

"I sure hope that you get this when you get to Lewiston! I know that you probably will want to just get on and play CS and WOW, but I just wanted to let you know that I love you and I hope that you have fun. I haven't been doing much except for sewing the cushions and cleaning. I just got done vacuuming the living room and I am getting ready to do the dishes (or at least some of them). After that, I think I am going to walk to Dissmores and get something to drink because we don't have anything to drink in the house and I am hella thirsty, and then I think I am going to run to Blockbuster on the way back and get a different movie to watch. Once I get back I will probably start cleaning the bedrooms and then if I have time, i might see to cleaning up the bathroom a bit (sweeping and mopping). That way, when you come home, it will be to a tidy house!

Listen, I know you really wanted me to go with you today, and I am really sorry that I am letting you down, because (trust me) I feel bad because I feel like I am hurting your feelings and I really wouldn't want to do that. It's just that this place is a mess, I didn't want to deal with all the cat stuff, and lan's aren't really my thing. Once we move into a different apartment, I'd be a lot more willing to go out and not have to worry about stuff. I'm sure that nothing would happen, and I am probably overreacting, but I just would rather be safe than sorry. I think that tomorrow or Monday, I am going to go around to different places here in town and pick up some applications so that I can find a job for the summer. Then, when we have enough money, maybe we can rent a small U-Haul and move to those other apartments, where they allow Kimahri. I just know I would feel safer that way and then I would have no problem leaving him home alone for a day. I have never been to a LAN and I think that it would be fun to see what one is all about, but I am just hesitant right now because I have a lot on my mind with moving, summer jobs, and school....I really am sorry honey. But I want you to have fun with your friends and I promise that I will be here waiting for you when you get home.

I love you SOOOOOOOO much, and I have been thinking about you nonstop since you left. I miss you already...=( But, I know that you will be home soon, and then I will be able to give you a big hug, lots of kisses, and snuggle up close with you in my arms. I love you baby, and I really really hope that you have fun, even with me not being there. Just know that I am thinking of you! If you are able to call the house, and you want to, I will be here all day except for when I walk to the store (I need exercise...) and I will leave my MSN messenger on all day so we can talk. I hope you arrived in Lewiston safely. Please, please, PLEASE be careful when you are driving home this morning, and let Jake drive if you get too tired...I want to make sure I see my baby again. And be extra careful since you don't have your license with you.

Well, I will let you go now, but I hope this brings somewhat of a smile to your face. If you have any time to talk to me whether through phone or MSN, I would love to talk! I love you baby! You are my heart and soul, my one and only, my destiny, my SOULMATE! I wouldn't want anyone else to share this life with except for you. I know we both have made mistakes in the past, but I am so glad that God helped us pull through it all and show our hearts that we truly, deeply love each other. I don't know what I would do without you in my life, and I can't wait to spend forever with you. I love you honey...today, tomorrow, and always.

Can't wait to see my Goober again!
I love you soooooo much!
Love always and forever,
your Nanabear "

Hey, don't feel too bad, I just found my wifes car at a guy I sort of thought she might have been having an EA with. tommorow is going to be an interesting day

I seriously, for the love of God don't believe why its so hard to be faithful to someone you marry.

She has treated me like absolute ---- over the last year, whether or not on purpose, and I've NEVER EVEN CONTEMPLATED leaving her or cheating on her because I loved her when I made my vows for "better or for worse". How in the hell is it so god damned hard to be faithful for people? For Christ's sake get a divorce if you're going to f around.

I'm sorry, I realize I'm making an A out of myself right now but I need to vent in some way or form, and I think speaking through these words as I have no friends around at the moment is the best means possible. Its better than calling up my STBXW and cussing her out - at least I save face (not like I should even care anymore.)

I don't get it either, things were bad, but I never decided f it I am out.

What I don't get is how she can sit there and act like she is trying to make things work with us and then be over at this guy's house. That is pretty vile. I can't wait to hear the excuse. It is gonna be classic.

To think I almost put her CC debt onto my CC cause it was a lower interest rate, she is pay 25%. I hate that I co-signed the truck in my name for her. There is NO excuse for her being over there. I had a small idea in the back of my head something was going on still. The phone logs showed the calls stopping on the 21st of May, but apparently there is still something. I am sorry, no matter what kind of friend this guy is you don't stay at another man's house. And lie to me about where she was going, using her sick aunt in the process. I am giving her a chance to come clean tommorow. Then I am firing off an email to every co-worker, family member, and friend we have telling them of the affair. Someone else out there tell me if that is the right way to expose this.

I can only laugh right now, cause it sucks

Well...

Its amazing what happens with you mix complete and absolute anger with God's grace.

I finally took the first step towards moving on with my life - where it leads me I don't know. I e-mailed my W and let her know that if she was serious about saving any friendship we ever had we need to talk in person NOW. I told her its not even about the marriage anymore - but I do value her as a friend, and her friendship is something that I would, if possible, like to save,

As pissed as I am, I found enough strength, and grace, to email her calmly yet sternly and let her know that things aren't alright. I left the door open for her to come back if she wants to; but I also explained to her that if she wants nothing to do with me I will graciously leave. I love her, and nothing will change that, but if she wants nothing to do with me - then I wish her the best of luck in life.

I think its tragic that so many people throw away their memories and the things that they shared with their loved ones before things went bad out of anger. Luckily God gave me the strength I needed to stay calm and collective - something which I never could do in our marriage. Maybe the counseling and prayers are actually changing me after all.

My wife's mother was sleeping with a married man who was in the middle of getting a divorce, she committed adultry. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree I guess. My MIL married the guy once the divorce was final.

My wife claims to have such a strong faith in God, yet where is it now. It is like the story of the farmer tossing the seeds, I wonder if her seeds are merely planted on rocks, and do not have a proper root.

She told me may 15th that she didn't want to get a divorce, that people too often end things so quickly and easily, that she didn;t want to do that. yet here she is, and another guys house.

I will give it the college try, but who knows. I think she thinks we can still be friends, that she can still hang around my family and friends. She is dead wrong. If she choses the other road, she is not going to be welcome back into my world ever. My friends and family know this as well.

I wish some of the wiser ones here would chime in but it is usually lots slower around here as the weekend approaches and on the weekends. I noticed that lots of people have read some on your thread but only a few have been posting. I am sorry.

Your life seems to have been wrought by heartache. Just when you thought you had so much happiness with your wife it all blows up in your face. It does seem a quick change in her.

I didn't catch when she had the miscarriage. She may be experiencing some hormonal changes that been affecting her behavior.

There may be ways to get proof of an A if one exists. This is all so fresh that it may not be necessary to rush to D right away. It does seem odd that she would write that email to you just a month ago and then do an about face.

I know how painful this is for you. It is good to remain calm and centered in your interactions with her. Draw on your strength in the Lord and don't lose your faith. Try to be patient.

You are doing the right thing in your life in not wanting to repeat you parents mistakes. You are breaking the cycle. You can succeed with or without your wife.

Keep praying. Prayer really has worked miracles in my life. God's will isn't always our will. You want the greater good.

When I went to bed last night, I felt good about the e-mail i sent her; however now, as I've woken up I don't.

I'm not okay with just being her friend - I'm always going to love her like a wife. I want more than anything for us to work, and I'm really scared now because she said she already has the paperwork filled out and that she is bringing it over in the next few days - she even said "it won't cost much to file."

I don't understand why she is so hell-bent on divorce, what I've done isn't even that bad - especially when she said she loved me like she did, I don't understand why we can't even try counseling, or at least why she doesn't want to.

Last night, I sent her an e-mail saying that it wasn't even about our marriage anymore, but that if she wanted to save ANY friendship we might have that we NEED to get together in person NOW. I told her that I was honestly sick of her brushing me off telling me she was "too busy" and explained that "A marriage, bad or good, shouldn't be brushed aside because someone is 'too busy', especially after she called me her soulmate. I also expressed to her that I'm past trying to force her coming back to me, but that I would leave the door open for her if she ever decided to give us a chance again. I told her that although it brought me great sadness knowing that she wants to divorce and that what we had might go away, but I also expressed my happiness for the memories that we've shared through it all. When I told her that I would leave the door open for us; I also mentioned that I couldn't promise I wouldn't find love somewhere else during the time we were apart; but I highly doubt that will happen. I seriously feel incomplete without her in my life.

I told her straight up that if our friendship is worth anything to her that she will find a way to get together with me in the next few days - because quite frankly, I'm getting very sick of, if anything due to lack of emotional support and the general feeling of being slapped in the face by who I love the most, getting brushed aside like I never meant anything to her.

I didn't ask her about the guy she is A with, I don't know the acronyms or what it would be for him; but I told her that I love her and that I will miss her.

My job is literally about a 2 minute walk from the place we met; and every lunch break I find myself walking to that place. I don't know why i do it, because when I do it I get extremely sad and almost always break down - but I find myself spending the time that I'm not working sitting in our spot; it reminds me of the times when we were happy - I really miss that, especially in her. I told her I left her a present there - I carved the words "Aaron and Shannon, then the date we met there 5 years ago, and then I put friends forever". I know its lame, but it was the least I could do - I love her and I miss what we have; I hope someday she gives us a chance; I really do. I'll never lose faith in God when it comes to recovering our marriage...after all, I already waited 4 years and through about 5 of her relationships for her the first time - if I have to, love can pull me through it again.

When she gets here, I want to express that I really don't want to divorce, but if she wants to there's nothing really that I can do - I wish she wasn't so steadfast on breaking things off when its been such a short period of time - especially considering the nature of her email from a month ago.

Ugh, life is really confusing sometimes. Especially when you've dealt with this crap before your 21st birthday.

I pray that this ordeal hasn't taken God out of her life. I don't see the enthusiam in her eyes or voice anymore - she used to look forward to going to church and she used to be so excited about God's plan for our lives together. I really pray that through all of this she stays strong in her relationship with God. I saw how much she hurt inside before she found God, and I can see it coming back.

Perhaps one of these days before I go back to school she would be willing to come to me with church - I think it would do us both a lot of good to share that again.

I would hope that she would be open to meeting with a pastor before filing for D. You'd think she would give more of a try before just flushing the marriage. No doubt she'd regret losing you eventually.

My H was married young the first time. He got her preg. during HS, dropped out his junior yr, went to work full time and married her before the birth. He was working about 50 hours a week trying to provide for them. They had two kids in 10 months. Before the 2nd child was a yr old his wife had an A and then wanted a D. I think they were married 18 months. He got a Mexican D. She moved across the country so he had no contact with them until I came in the picture when the oldest was 7 yrs old. H believes she originally wanted to marry him to get out of her parent's house. It was a stepping stone to her freedom. That was 38 yrs ago.

Do read the articles and concepts on the main site as well as the forum. There is a wealth of information.

Here is a link to the plan A/B section:

Plan A and Plan B as described by Dr. Willard Harley

There is also and article on the signs of an affair.

No matter what happens in your marriage you want to learn this stuff to understand how to try to affair proof your marriage.

Son (I am not saying this in a derogatory manner):

You are far more wise than a man of your age should rightfully be. What is posted above is the essence of what many people just don't "get". I am smiling right now reaidng your posts. I am a big fan of yours.

Man, if I had your wisdom at even my age now , who knows where I would be today.

I think you have a very bright future anyway you slice it.

"Many are called, Few are chosen"....Good luck.

Sourmale, MD