Hey all!

Ragamuffin, I sure didn't mean to overlook ya. We must have been cross-posting or something because I didn't see your post before! Oh well...I see it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now, LH--THIS is excellent! I am going to print this and have one deeply thoughtful evening about this, because this is EXACTLY the same issue again, isn't it??



Upon further consideration this afternoon, here is what I have come up with so far. Using just observation, it would appear that there is a pattern of disregard for "our" time, and that my feelings didn't register on the radar. As I understand it, a codependent response would be to try to force him to change or control the situation so he effectively "can't do that." A denial response would be "oh, that's not so bad" or making up other excuses that basically negate the problem. And a healthier response would be to face that this is what is happening, expect that he will continue to disregard "our" time and my feelings because that seems to be his true self, and decide if I can accept that or not. Does that about sum it up?



FNCJ

(Hey...what is this thing that keeps pricking me in the side??) :P

Hi all - wanted to throw in my two pennys! I beleive it was wrong of my to act the way I did - to make a promise and then 'go back on it', so to speak.

We had an agreement that I sort of disregarded, and I take full responsibility for not fulfilling my part in that agreement. I would like to add a further defense - it was a huge turning point for me - the second one in this amazing relationship with CJ - it was a point of revelation about myself and my responsibility in ANY relationship.

I am 47 years old and have spent the last 47 or something years keeping myself safe from 'abusive' persons (whether they know it, acknowledge it, or not). Last Thurs. I did something that is common to me - CJ did not give all the details, and I will not divulge more unless she wants to - here's all I will offer:

I helped someone who was in extreme need, and in doing so, I opened sone old feelings from my past marriage, where I was not allowed any self-expression. I sort of panicked, and, to my own credit (in my feeble mind, that is) I immediately called my Cj and told her what I did - expecting to be verbally castrated, as had been my past.

I had erred in two points - 1) in assuming that CJ would act how my entire past had acted, and 2) in how I was somehow free of any commitments that I made. I ASSUME this is because I had, over time, become extremely self-defensive - when I made a decision that seemed to contradict what I thought was the way things were expected, I would choose what I thought was 'morally' right, but then find a way to reconcile that action to those that I thought were my 'betters'. (Forgive me for my rather dense post!)

When I worked this thru with CJ, I came to this conclusion: My actions can be morally right, but affect my relationship with the one I love. In this instnace, I have made a PERSONAL agreement to consult her first, and then, if we can reach a POJA, I will continue with my original intention. If NOT, I will DISCONTINUE my action and go on with what the Sunshine (CJ) and I agree upon.

I appologize for this SECOND offense to CJ - I love you very much and am willing to work the rest of my days to 'perfect' and make our relationship healthy, wise, good, and an example to follow...

DD

CJ,
your comments regarding co-dependency have really bothered me because they just don't feel right. I mean, NO, I do not think the only healthy way to deal with such a situation is to realize what he does and is likely to keep doing and choose to accept it or not. Not if it's a relationship you truly value and a person you truly love! I think it's perfectly healthy to expect someone to be willing to change things (especially Lovebusters and DJ's) in order to create a fulfilling relationship. If not, what is MB really about? You should be able to dialogue about things like this and talk about expectations and what you are willing to accept and not and what he is willing to change or not. That is not co-dependent. If you can't do that, then it would be time to worry. I think you may have taken concepts that apply well to a relationship with an addict or a very unhealthy relationship and way over-applied it.

Have you read Harley's article before on "Why the Co=dependency Movement is Ruining Marriages"? Below is a quote:

"In my judgment, the co-dependency movement, which began with such valuable insight, has become a monster. In over-reaching, it has subjected healthy people to the same norms as unhealthy people, and in so doing, has caused much more harm than good. Married couples should be on guard from the ruinous effects of the co-dependency movement on marriage..."

Foundwoman ~ it remains to be seen if CJ is indeed in a healthy relationship. There are alot of red flags here. And given her co-dependent past in a dysfunctional abusive marriage, it remains to be seen if CJ has stepped out of those behaviors of enabling, denial and disrespect of self in relationships.

Dr. Harley is right on about co-dependency - in a healthy MARRIAGE.

CJ isn't married. CJ is dating.

And CJ ~ I'm more than a little alarmed after reading your past thread also. I'm standing here with the flag wavers.

Hey CJ'sDUDE, I for one, obviously ain't going to cut you any slack especially since your a former subscriber to the site. On the other hand, after getting into a relationship, I also have a better understanding of how these things happen. So I'm simply going to cut to the bottom line. You seem wonderful at yielding words, which to me is either out of true sorrow or it's a engrained response to a natural behaviour. And since this is a repeat, I'm thinking the latter. After the last incident you came on here and threw around some beauties, but words are meaningless without action. As a matter of fact, I think your statement was pretty close to the one I quoted above. So that you've had the need to restate these words after your actions do not match them makes me raise bumpers boxers further up the flag pole.

Oh and dude, after where Miss CJ comes from I find it a little sad that both of these incidents have involved alcohol.

Did you just call me a [censored]?...... OK CJ, you know me, I ain't into all them big words. While I like the reasoning of your "Healthier" response except for the part where you decide whether or not to accept unacceptable behaviour. I would have concerns that you may mix into that a little of the other's when sorting through to find the answers. I make this observation strickly on your past, the fact that you truly are pretty new at this relationship game, and the steps you've taken to maintain this relationship.

That all being said, I vote for solution #4 and that is Hey Mr. Man, you've got two strikes and no balls, next strike and you can kick rocks. CJ, selfish unloving behaviours are familar to you in many forms, please, please, PUH-LEASE find no comfort in them....

Okay, so first things first...HI HONEY! It was very brave of you to come on here and hear all this, and to respond openly letting people see into you a little bit. I'm proud of ya and just wanted you to know that I think most folks here understand what it's like to reprogram your "gut reactions" after years of dysfunction.

That being said, I hear what you'all are saying about not accepting unacceptable behavior, and I guess to further refine, I would say that this is what I've come up with. It is not healthy for me to "pretend this was okay" or make excuses; that would be denial. It is not healthy to try to control the situation and "make him stop it" or "make it so he can't do that." It is equally not healthy to believe words where actions don't match. It is equally not healthy to allowed continued disregard because I'm not treating my own self with self-respect!

So at this time my decision is a little bit of a wait-and-see...observe. Yeah, it's reasonable for a person to struggle with some of those old issues--especially when they're trying to do something new. But, yeah, it is also reasonable for me to find myself too valuable to be treated poorly.

I think I'm getting clearer and clearer on this!




FNCJ

My dear ~ it is also reasonable to seek out men that are not 'fixer-uppers'.

Hot Dang.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Where is the jumping up and down, hoopin' and hollorin' icon when you need it. By golly, I think she's got it........

Why yes...I think I did! heehee <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />



Ahhh--this is excellent advice, sage skinny-legged one. In my own past, I am "used to" and familiar with selfish, unloving behaviors. In some ways, that one of the hardest parts for me--the fact that literally everything about doing this in a healthier way feels so foreign. I'm not saying it's not good or exciting or amazing to be in an actual close, mutual relationship...just that it's not what I've experienced before and hence it is new and not familiar and recognizable. Gee, I look forward to the day it is "familiar". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


FNCJ

Bill -

Thanx for your input - - and the insight you offer. I would like to respectfully disagree with you on at least one, and maybe two issues here - I hope you don't mind if I speak bluntly and perhaps 'yield some "wonderful words"' of which it seems you would rather I not use.

The first issue is this: "You seem wonderful at yielding words, which to me is either out of true sorrow or it's a engrained response to a natural behaviour. And since this is a repeat, I'm thinking the latter...."

It is, in some ways, a 'repeat' of a former problem, but there is this to consider: CJ and I are trying very hard to document our full relationship and be completely open and transparent about our growth together for a very specific reason: we hope that our journey will be of use to someone else, somewhere, someday. Hence, if there is a problem that arises, we refuse to deny it, hide it, or disguise it. We present it to anyone who is interested (yes, we are working on a book documenting our relationship that is almost painfully honest.) Because of this, I wish to make the following very clear:

I am working thru some personal issues that have affected my previous relationships, and I am intent on changing the negative aspects of myself - this involves facing them, admitting them, and re-organizing my thinking to exclude them. One of these behaviorsis a 'throwback' to a rather strange childhood, and a behavior I need to totally get rid of. That behavior, in essence, is simply acting on the spur of the moment to do something I think is right, 'knowing' that my action will not be one that gains my partner's approval. I emphasize the word 'knowing' here because my problem (in this instance) was to ASSUME that CJ would act in the same manner as all of my previous relationship partners. It is a deeply ingrained habit, one that I am overcoming - and CJ and I have proposed a POJA (we haven't formalized it yet) that will protect her from this habit. I make no excuses for myself; in this particular instance, I acted in a manner that CJ, when she knew what was involved, DID approve, and I made the kinda dumb error of being too 'chicken' to check with her. I assumed I knew her action or re-action to one of my behaviors and acted on my assumption. That was wrong. I'm not perfect, but I am willing to work on things - I don't intend to remain stuck in some trap that anyone's opinion may place me.

RE: your statement "After the last incident you came on here and threw around some beauties, but words are meaningless without action..." You assume that there has been no growth - possibly because we have placed another problem on the forum to gain insight from everyone, I dunno. They are somewhat similar, but not completely. It would be very easy for CJ and I to simply post glowing reports of our relationship, but that isn't very realistic, and not many people would gain much insight into their own personal growth if we did that.

This does bring up the next issue I'd like to point out: this particular thing was not alcohol related (as far as I can tell). In this regard I totally agree with the opinions expressed in this thread regarding the co-dependency movement: if you study the reasoning that backs that particular fad, you'll find that EVERYONE falls into the category of either an addict or a co-dependent, and most of the proponentes of this fad pretty much place everyone into both categories. In my opinion, it's a great way to create an enormous customer base for enterprising entrepeneurs. Its big business, and if you can emotionally blackmail someone into falling for it, you have some good bux comin' yer way.

One last thing regarding my use of 'words' - a lot of that has to do with the wierd turns my life has taken: I 'm a country boy with an English Lit degree. Hyup, yeehaw, dashing good sport, olde chappe....

DD

(((CJ’s DUDE)))

First off, let me start by apologizing, I have the uncanny ability to be a little rough around the edges and I pretty much speak my mind calling them as I see them. Obviously, with some of your sarcasm, I must have struck a nerve or two.

“””'yield some "wonderful words"' of which it seems you would rather I not use.”””

The only wonderful words that I wish you’d not use are the apologetic ones after you done screwed up.

”””I am working thru some personal issues that have affected my previous relationships, and I am intent on changing the negative aspects of myself”””

Then buy some Nike stock and “Just Do It”. I, of all people, am a living witness of how one can change all kinds of behaviors by simply setting your mind to it. Now to be fair and just, I realize there are set-backs, mistakes, and problems. But re-occurring incidences are HUGE RED FLAGS whether you’re remorseful or not.

“””You assume that there has been no growth”””

Actually, I assume nothing. I simply look at the situation as it is presented. There was a repeat behavior. That behavior did involve alcohol (not saying that it was caused by alcohol). And this all transpired after CJ moved to be closer to you. I don’t see any assumption there.

“””One last thing regarding my use of 'words'”””

And truly dude, I ain’t harping on your English skills or anything of the sort. I am harping on the need to provide us with a repeat performance. You’ve been around the block long enough to know what this relationship thing is all about. You possess enough intelligence to analyze yourself and identify your strengths and weaknesses. But without serious action behind all the analysis and fancy words where are at? You’re right back here. I fully understand and appreciate that this deal is one of progression and not perfection, but if you keep tripping on the same thing, when are you simply going to remove it from your path. On that note, keep in mind that your speaking here to a crazy man, who chose sanity, so I know it can be done. You can choose to remove that behavior. I’ve faced several obstacles since I chose sanity where the comfortable thing to do was to reach for what I knew, which was craziness, but I continue to choose what is uncomfortable. When faced with a decision such as yours the other day, you simply had to do the next right thing and you didn’t. If it’s ever clouded, sometimes it’s easier to start by throwing away what you know to be bad choices. You can do this in spite of childhood experiences or whatever else haunts you from your past. If you’re a reader, pick up David Peltzer’s books and look at what was deeply ingrained in him, yet look at the choices he’s made with his life in spite of the torture.

One last thought for both of you. That y’all are documenting all this in hope’s of some book deal, hey that’s great. That y’all feel your calling is to provide a service for others, again that’s great. But as a word of caution, don’t get so caught up in the destination that you fail to see that the journey has taken you off the path.

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers