It's been a long while since I've posted. <P>Quick review: I fell in love with the mother of my son's friend. I've been through a significant life event recently that she seems to be the only one who understands. She has been through something similar recently.<P>Update: Against the advice I got on this board, we continue to talk on-line and on the phone and see each other every once in a while. While we may flirt on-line, we have never become physical with each other. We have agreed that we are committed to our marriages and neither of us wants to jeopardize our families.<P>I don't want to give up her friendship because she often knows just what to say when I'm not feeling right to help me through it. She has told me that I've often been there for her too.<P>This is the kind of relationship that I would've loved to have had with my wife during my crisis, but my wife just gives me blank looks and can't understand why I'm feeling the way I do. I do try to tell her.<P>We are seeing a counselor now, not so much to help us with marital problems, but to help both of us understand what has been happening with me.<P>Somehow, I think this other woman is more than a friend, yet we are not lovers.<P>Do you think I can keep this friendship?<BR>I'm asking because I wonder if this depth of friendship actually qualifies as an affair, especially since my wife could not help me through this.<P>I have shared everything with my wife that I share with her - except the fact that I'm sharing it with her. I have not withdrawn from my wife, and in many ways we are closer today than we were a while ago. But I don't think I could have gotten here without my friend's help.<P>Even if this is not an affair, I don't know how to tell my wife without her thinking it was.<P>My counselor has simply advised me to establish clear boundaries for this relationship. He said it may be a while before my wife and I are ready to discuss it and he would help me through it.<P>

BlindSided - <P>BE REAL CAREFUL!!! You're treading on real thin ice if you ask me. You ask if this qualifies as an affair? Does your W think it's an affair...she's the only one who can define an affair in this situation. Does you wife even know how close you are to your fried? Do you say stuff to your friend that you would not want your wife to know you are saying to her.<P>I guess my litmus test is...if you are saying things to this friend that you'd not say in your wife's presence then it mught just be an affair. be careful my friend...almost EVERY affair starts out as "friends". Tell you wife if you haven't already about how you feel for this woman. Whatever you do, DON'T tell your friend how you feel...that always marks the beginning of an affair.

Blindsided<BR>What you are attempting is very very dangerous.<BR>My H's affair was with someone who was a friend. Someone who he thought of as a person to talk to. The last woman in the world he ever imagined slepping with. Someone who was like a "sister" to him. Someone who he described as "one of the guys". These are all things that he has told me. He kept the friendship secret from me because he was afraid of how I would react.<BR>Sound similar?<BR>We had just gone through some major life changes. He turned to her because she was easy to talk to. Why? Because she wasn't involved in what was going on. She was an outsider with a perspective on the situation. She was available.<BR>My H know now that he should never have kept secrets. If he could do it over again he would not have that friendship. He would have communicated to me over and over.<P>A quote from "Private Lies":<P>"Sharing a secret with someone else, and keeping the secret from your partner, is particularly dangerous. Asecret produces a bond between those who share the secret, and it puts distance between you and those from whom the secret is being kept."<P>Your friendship with this woman is that kind of secret. <BR>I don't want this to sound like a lecture. Your post came very close to home and I wish someone had said these things to my H.<BR>Take care!!! Think about what you are doing vey carefully!!<BR> <BR>

Thanks, Shattered<P>I don't talk about my wife to her - only about issues we are facing. When we have spoken about our spouses it has been to try and get a "reality check". We have always been mutually encouraging. I know her husband and he is a great guy.<P>I have shared some intimate feelings with her that I think would upset my wife if she knew. I've also shared these same feeling with my wife. These were not about anyone but me. I think my wife would be upset at the idea that I am receiving emotional support from someone besides her in a way that she seems unable to.<P>

Thanks, wasstubborn<P>After reading your profile, your husband's situation sounds frighteningly similar. <P>I certainly don't think of her like a sister! Both of my sisters are flakes!<P>One thing that makes this tough is, like you, my wife disliked this person from the beginning.

Blindsided<BR>Do you understand where I am coming from?<BR>Honestly I DO NOT want to lecture you.<BR>When I read your post I was filled with terror. That horrible feeling that I have felt so many times.<BR>I am begging you - If you love your wife PLEASE do not keep this from her.<BR>Don't do this. Nothing good can come of it. My H is a good man. He never thought this could happen. The friendship made it possible. He and I have both suffered tremendously from his belief that it could never happen.<BR>Please I want to help you. Ask me anything you want. <BR>One other thought I had before I read your post to me - By not telling your wife what is going on, you are being disrespectful of her. By believing that she couldn't handle the truth, you are being disrespectful of her. This is how I felt. How can she have any way of protecting herself if she doesn't know what is happening.<BR>Please don't be offended by what I am saying. I am afraid for you and your marriage. <BR>

I have to agree with Wasstubborn and everyone else who has posted a response to you. Everything they say is true. You are treading on thin ice. You are INVITING nothing but trouble. Your first and foremost responsibility it to the woman with whom you have exchanged vows of commitment. You have promised to love, honor, and charish<BR>foresaking ALL others. If your needs in ANY area are not being met in your relationship with your wife, it is your responsibility to more efficiently communicate your needs to her. You dishonor her with every secret you keep. The situation is only going to get worse as secrets and lies begin to become a larger part of your life. Your wife deserves to know about the woman you consider "only a good friend" even if she does not "like her." Of course she does not like her, she fears that you like this OW more than you do your her (your wife). She fears that your development of a relationship with this woman is a threat to your life with her. IS she right? Can you honestly say that time spent talking to OW, time spent being with her, does not distract from your relationship with your wife. Already you compare the two.<P>" This is the kind of relationship that I would've loved to have had with my wife during my crisis, but my wife just gives me blank looks and can't understand why I'm feeling the way I do."<P><BR> That is so unfair. If you are not getting the responses you expect from your wife in relation to one crisis or another, is it because of the responses she gives, or because of your expectaions being unrealistic? <BR>I am glad you are going to counseling. I hope communication of your individual needs and expectations is an area in which you and your wife will invite growth. If you want any hope of maintaining for life the friendship with the OW in such a way that your wife will not consider the relationship a threat to your marriage or qualify it as an affair, then the first step is for you to become OPEN and HONEST about what is going on with this friend. NO SECRETS. Include your wife in the conversations with the "friend". Let her get the benefit of seeing what you find so appealing in the responses you get from your friend. Your wife might learn something after. If you find it impossible to include your wife in your conversations and activities with the friend, then you have answered your own question. You are having an affair.<P>Good Luck

Hi, Blindsided,<P>I want to jump in to concur with what the others have said. You are really playing with fire here. I had an affair almost 15 yrs ago (that was quite lengthy), my H had one last year.<P>Affairs start very insideously. They may wind up as an avalanche, but they start as a snowflake. Nobody *expects* or *intends* to get into an affair... but those of us who have stumbled into it can sure look back with 20/20 hindsight and see what happened!!<P>I'm not surprised your W doesn't like your friend. People have pretty good "radar" about these things - I'm sure your W is trying to brush off her unease about the woman as silly, but the fact is that she is absolutely right to feel threatened by this woman & any friendship you have with her.<P>I also agree that maintaining this friendship behind your W's back is disrespectful toward her & toward your marriage. If you haven't read the basic "Principles" on the Marriage Builders website, I'd urge you to. The ones that come to mind are "Policy of Joint Agreement", i.e. that any action taken over the objections of one partner is damaging to the marriage (and you *know* your W is not in agreement on this friendship, as it stands now!); and policy of "Total Honesty" - that there are no secret corners of your life that your spouse doesn't have access to. There's a lot of pithy, usable, relevant information in the Harley stuff - and as a woman whose marriage has survived 21 years, 2 affairs, 2 kids, major depression, a business failure/bankruptcy, and more - and is now incredibly happily married! - I can vouch for it. <P>Like the others said, I don't mean to preach or lecture... but I do feel you're walking on a razor blade here, and honestly, are likely to fall off. You *are* already in an "emotional affair" in my opinion: it is secret, it is meeting your unmet emotional needs, it is hard for you to give up. It will only get harder, and become more entrenched in your life. Your marriage deserves better than that. <P>If anybody had asked me what kind of shape MY marriage was in just before my affair, I would have answered, "Fine!...Why?" So don't lull yourself into a false sense of security by believing that your marriage is safe & sound... the very existence of this 'friendship' demonstrates that it is not. <P>I'm glad that you're in counseling, but kind of appalled that your counselor seems so blase` about your friendship. Perhaps he is concerned about driving you away by insisting it has to end. A lot of counselors, unfortunately, are not very adept at dealing with infidelity. As I've said already, I find the information here at MB the most concise and practical I have found in 15 years of interest in the subject. Please read it.<P>Well, I hope I haven't indulged in overkill... but I'd sure like to see you avoid the mistakes so many of us here have made out of sheer ignorance. You will have a bigger mess to clean up in your life than you ever could have imagined, if you allow this to get out of hand. It is dangerous, pure & simple. Now is the time to keep your eye on The Big Picture, and what you want for your life. Good luck to you, & keep us posted. <P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Thanks Pilot's Wife and Suse<P>You've all made such excellent points. While I am emotionally involved with the OW, I think I should involve my wife before it has a chance to progress into something that can never be undone. One fear I had that your responses are confirming is that I am rationalizing everything in order to continue the relationship as it is. At least, if my wife knows, I can be held accountable if my friendship nears "out of bounds".<P>The reasons my wife gives for not liking my friend is that she thinks she is a "snob" and she thinks she looks down on us because she is sort of a socialite. I have found this to be completely untrue, and I believe they could be good friends if given the chance.<P>I'll talk to her about it tonight...

Blindsided, listen to people here, would you please?<P>Read my profile, read my story. It doesn't MATTER if it's physical, don't you see? Right now you are holding a sword of Damocles over your W's head, saying "See? When you don't give me what I need, I have HER to go to." What a terrible thing to do to someone you supposedly love. I live with that sword all the time too, and it ain't fun.<P>I don't know if my H has told his "friend" things he wouldn't tell me, but I do know that he has told her things that he rarely tells anyone, that only I knew. So already there's very little that's just ours.<P>Don't be an idiot.

BlindSided,<BR> You need to cut off all contact with this woman NOW!!!!!<BR> Tell your wife everything and reassure her that you want to make your marriage everything that it should be.<BR> I'm quite sure that she already knows about your feelings for the OW.

<BR>You are, by keeping this "friendship alive, involved in an emotional affair and betraying your wife. End it now and concentrate on your marriage.<P>Wass...oh where oh where the heck is that "just friends" poem thingy???!!! <BR><P>------------------<BR>Joan

Talked to wife last night. It didn't go anything like I thought it would. She said she understood the attraction because she thinks my friend and I are much alike. She did want me to assure her that it was no more than friendship. In light of our discussion, I can say without question that it will never be more than that. My wife said she was glad I told her so she can keep an eye on us anyway. My wife is not really angry about the emotional support - she knew she wasn't helping me - she didn't know how. She was glad I could find someone who could.<P>I never knew she trusted me this much! With everything in the open, I think everything is going to work out fine. I will not betray her trust.<P>Thanks everyone. I don't think I would've done with out your encouragement.

Blindsided<BR>I am SOOOO glad you talked to your wife.<BR>Keep talking to her. Don't keep any secrets.<BR>Your wife sounds like a wonderful woman. appreciate that. Appreciate her trust and don't take it for granted.<BR>Don't forget to be careful. Things do happen to the best of people. Staying away from secrets is the best thing you can do.<BR>Do you feel better?

Well, your wife is more understanding than I EVER could be. Be careful...this has "bad news" written all over it.<P>------------------<BR>Joan

Ah, but did you tell her you are in love with this woman, like you told us?

Might I add a suggestion? I think there needs to be some structure added to this arrangement, so you are in no danger of 'rationalizing' that, hey!, you've now been given carte blanche by your W to pursue your friendship totally guilt-free! Yay! <P>How about some simple ground rules: that you can only communicate in certain ways, and that your W has access to *all* communication? For example, you can email, and your W gets cc'd on everything, incoming & outgoing; and you can speak by phone, in your W's presence; and any social get-together is in your W's presence (check the Harley stuff under "Honesty"). Your W is attempting to be mature and trusting - don't give her reason to regret doing the right thing. These ground rules will give her some measure of comfort with the friendship.<P>If either you or your lady friend feel uncomfortable about this kind of "open-book" policy, I think you need to do some hard thinking about what kind of friendship this really is. And whether you're willing to jeopardize your marriage for it. BTW, your W sounds like a real peach.<P>I hope you don't feel I'm being too strict or suspicious - but those of us who tumbled into a 'friends' affair have learned that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Make that a ton of cure!