After a year of IC and MC for both of us (well, 6 months IC for FWW) the unanimous verdict is that I did pretty much the opposite of not meet her ENs.

After the start of her A, which had very little to do with missing ENs (ENs that would be nearly impossible for any spouse to meet sufficiently, in fact) I felt the increasing distance and actually worked so hard at my M she took everything for granted. I basically trained her to act distant to get what she wanted from me.

I became a doormat. I fed her sense of entitlement to an extreme. At almost any time during the decade of the A if I had said enough is enough and backed off, or acted like an individual with needs of my own, she probably would have woke up to what she was going to loose. She says so now herself.

This kind of change is hard for me. I have a very atrophied taker. I don't even know how to demand my ENs be met. It took me a week to fill out my EN questionnaire, for crying out loud. I didn't have a clue what they are.

I still believe a person who can survive the gauntlet of a maintaining an LTA (and I'm talking loooong here, like 10 years) are what they eat, in a way. FWW became a really good liar. She lied all the time about things she didn’t have to and that had nothing to do with the A. It became habit. She changed into a basically bad person. No ethics at work, no morals, detached mother, almost no good in her anywhere. But then, she had an A to protect at all costs. This slowly changed her into the kind of person who lives a double life without having to think about it consciously. If she wasn't innately that way to start with, and she most likely was, she definitely was after a few years of living that way.

LO,

Pitman writes in Private Lies that M is not supposed to make you happy. It’s supposed to make you married. Do you feel if your W were to not meet your ENs now, in the way you expect, she is out, again?

Can I ask why you say that he may have NPD? Is that a surmise that you have made, or does it come from a mental health professional?

My husband has been diagnosed with NPD, and it really changes the rules of the game in virtually every way.

Tru, like I was mentioning to Daisy, I think it's important to be cautious about diagnosing a WS as NPD. WSes, by nature, have narcissistic behaviors. It's a DISORDER if the person was like this before the A.

Agreed, Mimi. NPD is just such a serious diagnosis, and so rare, that if a mental health professional is considering that as a diagnosis, there must be some longstanding pattern of concern. Personality disorders don't just come and go, although affairs are often the wakeup call that something is wrong. An affair is such undeniable proof of selfishness, that it is often the spark to look more deeply at someone's behavior. You can ignore or rationalize away a lot of things, and spouses of those with NPD are masters at that. But an affair is very hard to overlook.

I'm quite familiar with Pittman's book. The point he was trying to make with this statement is that sometimes there are aspects of marriage that are unpleasant and hard. There are times when we will be unhappy. But all of this should ultimately balance out to a fulfilling relationship. If the times of work and misery begin to overshadow the times of happiness, then yes, the marriage is in trouble.

No person should be expected to remain in a relationship that is miserable and empty. However, both parties should be willing to work to correct that issue. Make no mistake...it is work.

To answer your query...

If my wife fell into her old habits, I would expect her to be sensitive to changing if I brought it up. If she refused to consider my feelings and did not change, then, yes, I would probably end the relationship. I expect that this applies to me as well. If I don't hold up my end of the relationship, I shouldn't be surprised if she chooses to "check out". I would NOT pursue an affair again.

Spousal relationships are not unconditional, Aph. The whole theory behind Harley's program is that we have control over how good our relationship is. If we neglect it, we create conditions that facilitate it's demise.

Key to all of this communicating our emotional needs and giving our spouses the opportunity to be successful meeting them. How they are met is very negotiable. That's part of the POJA process. Some people feel like it's not real if it has to be so contrived, but I disagree. Just because a behaviour doesn't come naturally for me doesn't mean my spouse doesn't need it. For example, it's important to my wife that I remember important dates. This isn't easy for me, so I go the extra mile to ensure that I meet this need. Make sense?

We've learned a lot from our experience. We've learned to see the issues that got us in that mess. We work at our relationship because we are mature to know that grass isn't greener. We know that the statisfaction we reap from this relationship is dependent on the love and care that we sow.

Lo

Daisy,

Have you ever read the book "Back from Betrayal" from Suzy Farbman?

I highly recommend it!

I think our situations are similar. we're about the same age, our children are about the same age. We are financially successful, play a leading role in our community, and form at least outwardly a perfect family.

Daisy, I suspect that both of us are at fault that our WH's affairs lasted so long. We lived in denial. We had too damn much to lose. It was easy for us to occupy ourselves with diverse responsibilities and ignore the fact that our husbands had begun to replace us with another woman in certain aspects of their lives. And my H an I both think he is the bigger conflict avoider? I am beginning to wonder...

This is a wake up call. I think we need to realize that the best thing we can do for our children is to pay more attention to our husbands' needs. What better could we do them then let them live in an environment where love, connectedness, and mutual respect reign? we both know that our responsibility for raising, disciplining our children is over. We live now by example. What example do we want to live?

I'm working on becoming the role model I would like my children to be proud of. I fail miserably at times, but can be honest and open about it. Perhaps that is part of the example...learning to deal with conflicts in a constuctive manner, hopefully one that encourages growth rather than resignation and stagnation.


... I am rambling here.

No, Daisy, we did not separate. I think this is counter productive to recovering your marriage.

You're not protecting your kids by separating. They know what's going on. The worst thing for them is thinking that Dad's leaving and not coming back. They would actually find it more reassuring if you were both there, even if you are fighting.

Separation prevents you from working on the relationship because you're not together. It provides the WS with opportunity to explore "options" if they already believe the marriage is shot.

I think it's imperative that he move back home, even if he has to sleep in the guest bed. If you can't communicate without fighting then agree not to until you're in the counselors office.

BTW, Daisy...you need to put repairing your marriage ahead of your kids right now. Oddly, you'll find that's the best thing you could do for them anyway. They need to see you work it out. Separation doesn't help you do that.

Low

Thanx, Low. Appreciate your thoughts.

I think a 10 year A is enough. I'm exploring all my options. All but one I can accomplish on my own.

Several have asked about the diagnosis of NPD. The symptoms were present before H A's. Mental Health professional thinks that H career provided the external validation, praise etc until he reached the top of his career. Now at 49 his career has peaked and H is seeking praise and adoration through OW. The therapist is concerned about his ability to "give" to me as his love is a very "needy" love.
Everyone on this website keeps telling me to get back together right away but I want us to begin positive communications and proceed slowly. Otherwise, I feel at risk of this happening again.
I do not want this marriage if he cannot be faithful and completely honest with me. Not that I'm not willing to try to meet his EN's, but I have to face the possibility that it may not be possible for one woman to meet his needs. Also, he has not mentioned meeting my EN's. He just tells the therapist that I am a "strong" person.

Those of you that went through the recovery process. Did you just read all of the books or attend a seminar? I cannot get my H to read anything about this.
Daisy

Seperation greatly increases the risk that this will happen again, Daisy, and greatly increases the chances that you won't recover. You can't work on your marriage if you are not together. Kicking him out adds new problems to the mix. There is absolutely no good reasons to kick him out, but several reasons why it damages your already troubled marriage.

Hi ML, I knew if you were logged in I was in trouble. HA We are meeting for dinner this weekend and some positive talk about our M in the past and things we like about each other. H is very guarded around me and still very angry. When you say bring him back, do you really expect me to sleep with him! I'm still angry with him however have learned that it doesn't help if I let him know that. I'm being nice but he is not communicating. H is an expert at saying nothing. Still only admits A details that he knows I know from 3000 emails over 5 years. Convince me here. I think letting him come home to soon says what he did is OK. I am also concerned about tempers flaring in front of the children, but my main concern is getting us talking to each other. H still blames me and is angry that my exposure has kept him from OW. Daisy

Daisy, of course it doesn't say the affair is ok to let him come home. But it lets him know that you are willing to forgive him. He needs to know that, especially now.

You said you were worried about a resumption of the affair, and kicking him out is about as high risk as you get so I don't get your logic here. If you want the risk to decrease, he needs to come home. He needs to know that you are willing to forgive him and want to work on your marriage if that is the case. Otherwise, he may as well just throw in the towel and take up with the OW.

And you shouldn't blow up in the front of the kids, that is the answer to that problem. You shouldn't be blowing up at him AT ALL.

Daisy, you can't work on the marriage if he ain't there. You are just increasing the odds of a resumption of this affair. You won't be angry forever, but the damage you are causing by kicking him out may cause permanent damage.

There is simply no positive reason to be seperated. AT ALL. It is all negative and increases your chances of divorce.

Daisy, my WH and I are separated. After I found out, he left, then came back after 3 weeks, but never talked to me, wouldn't answer any questions with honesty, wouldn't touch me, kiss me, wouldn't do a thing with the kids. After 5 months of this I couldn't bear it and asked for a separation. It was almost like he'd decided to himself, "if I go back and behave really badly, she'll kick me out and then I can have OW". I found myself terribly anxious and nervous around him and a huge amount of peace descended on me when we parted. He never stopped his A and I knew it, and I couldn't live with him having the best of both worlds. Suddenly, after 8 months apart, there is a light at the end of the tunnel for us.

I see everyone getting on your back about your separation. Statiscally what they are telling you is correct. It is better to be together to hold onto a marriage. But you are probably still in shock over what has happened to you. I have know my WH for 24 yrs, married for 15 and his A has been 4 yrs. I am shattered by the deception and lies. I was led to believe he couldn't perform in bed because of his meds. I now know he just couldn't get it up for two women. He chose her. It's utter devastation. My advice is to just do what feels right for you. You can listen to others, read all you can, cry, rant and rave. It is really positive that he will go for counselling with you. Good luck. TT

Daisy, I would urge you to NOT go by your feelings now, because they are so traumatized they are all over the place. They will not lead you down a reasoned, rational path. If I went by my "feelings," instead of my brain, after my H's affair, I probably would have taken a horse whip to him.

Your feelings are all over the place right now and very erratic. Please don't rely on them and certainly don't use your impaired feelings to make decisions about your marriage. I know it feels good to boot him out, but when you apply reason and logic to that decision, it quickly falls apart under scrutiny.

ML - you said, "But it lets him know that you are willing to forgive him".

In my case, it is only now I feel I have forgiveness in me. After reading here for months and seeing other people weather their storm. It just wasn't there at first. I suddenly felt aggrieved at being his 'nursemaid' for the rest of my life, and who can blame me. He's a very sick man.

I'm not a good actress and couldn't 'fake it till I make it". I THINK I can help him now. I intend to try. But last Sept I couldn't function around the man. I was so hurt and angry.

Maybe it's too late for us. I hope not. All I know is I needed the separation to see straight. We're all different. tt

TT, I think there is a huge difference between being willing to forgive and actually forgiving. It takes a long time to forgive, but if one wants to save their marriage, they must be willing to forgive.

The bottom line is that seperation is very damaging to a marriage. Her situation is not like yours in that you actually gave it a chance. She wants to give her marriage that chance and it alarms me to see you discouraging her by telling her to follow her angry, distorted "feelings." Feelings are the worst possible foundation for making life changing decisions and I wouldn't encourage her to do that.

ML - I'm not trying to alarm anybody. I'm going through a really hard time at the moment. Daisy will make her own mind up based on the advice/experiences we share with her. Just because I don't share your point of view, doesn't mean I can't tell Daisy my story. It's a democracy - right! I just felt a need to tell this lady my sad tale. Right or wrong. Take me or leave me. TT

I agree that the "fog" that clouds most WSes' thinking is very similar to the thought patterns and behavior exhibited by a narcissist. Only problem is, that your husband will never come out of the fog if he has NPD. That fog of impenetrable self-centeredness is his normal state. It is such an ingrained pattern of behavior and point of view that many practitioners consider it virtually unchangeable in any meaningful way.

If you read on support forums for people involved with narcissists, you will find that many people with NPD are diagnosed and begin treatment after an affair sends a couple into marriage counseling. That was true in my case, and many others I've read about. In lots of cases the spouse knew the narcissist was self-centered, but had no idea the degree of his misanthropy until the affair(s) were discovered.

If the diagnosis of NPD seems correct to you, then I would caution you not to try to follow the typical advice given to BS. People with NPD simply don't react the way that "normal" people do.

What has his reaction to that diagnosis been, and is he willing to seek long-term counseling?

Melodylane,

Perhaps you should view separation as one of Daisy's boundaries.

Daisy,

I am doing a seperated Plan A. Seperation was necessary for me. I was in such bad shape after D-Day, it was simply impossible for me to do a good Plan A while WH was still in contact with OW and treating me so disrespectfully.

My WH did not show any remorse for his A. Exposure and separation have caused him to feel shame. It appears that his public image and status are very important to him. It is more important to him that it outwardly LOOKS like he is a good husband and family man than actually being one. I am not sure if this is a character flaw that I just didn't see, or if this is a symptom of his affair. I won't know that until he has completely cut off contact to OW and gone through a period of withdrawal.

If I asked my husband to move back in, I'm sure he would. But I won't. I told him he could move back in when he could prove to me that he had no more contact with OW ever again.

They currently still work together, but WH says he's "working on it". I now believe that the PA began in 2001!

Reply to TruBluz, He gets angry when you acturally use the NPD words, but readily acknowledges that the he has always required more admiration and praise from external sources than most people do. Interestingly, his identical twin brother tells me he suffers from the same issue. They both crave attention even if it is only from an acquaintance. He is willing to continue therapy weekly but so far lacks insight into the extent of his actions. His IMAGE is all important to him and I am trying to figure out if he wants our marriage and is willing to work to save it or if he just wants the family man image. He is extremely embarrased
which may explain why he is so uncomfortable around me and his kids. This may be normal but it has been 10 weeks now since I confronted him and he has not shown me true guilt or remorse for his actions. However, friends say he has expressed those feeling to them but is unable to show those feelings to me. I'm doing Plan A all the way now and see what happens. I'm nervous about meeting him for dinner on Sat but am relieved that communication is starting as I feel our relationship has been frozen in time. I do think the A has stopped but most likely the reason is the OW because she is very angry that he didn't go to her when I asked him to leave. One other note about NPD. There is a possibility of narccissist rage if he feels truly rejected and I have been cautioned by the mental health expert to not be alone with him right now.
Thanks to everyone who has responded. I wish I could meet everyone of you on a retreat and talk in person as you have been so much help to me. Thanks Daisy

WS 49
BS 48
Separated April 27, 2005
Separated Plan A since 6/25/2005