I'm not really sure where to start in this post. But I suppose I will start with saying that I finally feel that I am 'free' from the M. Not only free from the physical connection, but free from the emotional bonds, and free from the fantasy (and desire) of what it could have been. I really didn't think I would be here this soon after the official divorce - but as I look back, I truly feel I have 'earned' this divorce, and am at peace with it finally. To be honest, it feels really good.

At this point, I am focussing on integrating within myself healthy relationship skills that I lacked during my M. Over the past year, I have identified them, and implemented them in my non-romantic relationships at work and in my social groups. I am just now beginning to feel like they are becoming a natural part of my personality.

At this moment, I am questioning the concept of 'dating.' I know I am not ready for a serious relationship. I still have a HUGE trust issue (as I still have yet to find a man who can be completely honest with me), and I really don't want to become involved in a rebound relationship. On the other hand, I would like to meet some people, go out, and perhaps enjoy the company of the opposite sex.

My questions really address the 'purpose' of dating and also the WOW factor that has been discussed quite extensively. Is it really 'dating' if I am not out 'looking' for a LTR? I mean, aren't most people looking for the 'love of their lives' when they date? Or at the very least, getting to know someone to see if they are a good candidate for M?

In addition, I do truly believe in 'pheremones'. Not necessarily the WOW factor, but there are some gentlemen that I KNOW I can feel attraction for sexually - and conversely, those that I KNOW I do not. Fortunately, or unfortunately, it has nothing to do with looks, age, race, or religion. This factor seems to just be completely independent of anything except biochemical factors. Consequently, there are those men that might ask me out, and I enjoy their company, but do not feel at all the urge to move beyond a friendship.

My problem here is.....If I am clear with these men that I am not 'dating' them - and they ask me to go to dinner or a movie, etc, and I accept - then are they thinking it is a 'date'. My experience so far has been that they are 'waiting' for the opportunity to present itself. I feel like I always have to be guarded around them, and cannot just 'have a good time'. So is this considered 'dating?'

I suppose I am just confused on the whole concept in its entirety....and if I am ready or not to venture into the 'dating' world. I finally have reached a point where I am very comfortable with myself, comfortable with being single, and confident that I have been implementing my personal changes in a positive manner. I feel like the next step would be testing them out in more romantic/involved type settings. Of course, I'm NOT ready to be emotionally vulnerable to anyone yet. I think I will have to meet a VERY special man who is willing to slowly work with me on that. And I reserve that for those that I might be seeking LTRs with. Which I am certain that NOW is NOT the time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So what do you see as 'dating'? Is it distinguishable from looking for an LTR? And if so, how do you know it is the right time?

Having just entered the dating world (and my DV was only final last November, so recent for me as well), I have no answers to your questions.

But I eagery await others' responses, because your questions are ones I've struggled with myself.

LL

L.I.T. says

My problem here is.....If I am clear with these men that I am not 'dating' them - and they ask me to go to dinner or a movie, etc, and I accept - then are they thinking it is a 'date'. My experience so far has been that they are 'waiting' for the opportunity to present itself. I feel like I always have to be guarded around them, and cannot just 'have a good time'. So is this considered 'dating?'
________________________________________________________

No LIT, that isn't dating and if you think that is what they are thinking then you shouldn't go out with these guys. Whats the point if you aren't going to enjoy it and they have no chance?

Could I suggest something that may be helpful for now?

Since you admit you aren't ready or looking for that LTR right now, why not keep your socializing in group settings for now?

Join a mixed league of some sort, sport, bar sport whatever type of group you'd be intersted in being a part of and keep it friendly in a group setting.

You can still fulfill your socializing needs without the worry of the whole dating thing for now. Just a good time without expectations.

Reborn

LL - Hope you find some answers from this - it's a tough topic for me too!

RM - Thanks for your reply. Actually, I have been keeping things in a very socialized setting. I learned after the first time I accepted one of these 'offers' that the expectations were beyond what was verbally established. And I do enjoy talking to people in groups. But I suppose a part of me wants some one on one as well.

So are you saying that dating is looking for a LTR?

And if I am not ready for a LTR, then I should avoid one on one period?

If that's what dating now-a-days means (particularly since I am no longer a college-girl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) then I suppose I have no choice, because I don't want to do anything before I am good and ready. But I will be honest and at least say that it would be nice to occasionally enjoy a man's company and get to know them better - maybe not for an LTR right now.....but as a person and possibly a good friend.

I have thought about this too....extensively. LL thread, and now yours (as well as a physical boundaries threads), etc. all address this issue, I have lots to say about it, and am curious to see how others (especially the opposiute gender from me) respond. This is a whole "book" really, and actually there are several good books on this very issue. Dr Clouds has written extensively about these matters, look up his stuff.

Not much time now, but can say this, the underlying theme of all relationships, dating, courting, betrothal, marriage is radical honesty. All relationships are fraught with potential disaster, so much is at stake emotionally, and practically as well (time, money, etc.), you must employ the best "tools" possible to increase the likelihood of goodf outcomes, that means you must...use...your....brains alot (proactivity), not make decisions too emotionally (reactivity).

First the underlying principle is that human beings are not loners, they seek companionship, belonging, comrades...we are very much a relateing species, and need relationships for our well-being. The one we need the most, is to be the other 1/2, it completes us. Personally I think (digressing a bit here) human beings although physically individuals, are not the basic unit of our species as individuals, I think the basic unit is a complementary and fitting couple. It is impossible for any of us to fully actualize (psychologically) without someone to push against, and pull towards, that dynamic matures us. It may not have to be a marital type partner, but it is very very difficult to mature completely any other way, which probably explains why universally humans seek committed relationships if at all possible.

Back to "dating". A willingness to date and accept those risks means a person is emotionally healthy, a good start, cause if one is not healthy, they should fix that first, for their sake and so as to not mess with others lives. You cannot take proper advantage of dating and growth if you are screwed up. That does not mean we don't all have baggage, bad habits, inappropriate expectations, confusion, fearfullnmess, and such. But if you have anger issues, addiction issues, serious self-esteem issues, control issues, and so forth, fix them first with good therapist.

So we sally forth to date, and as you ask, what is that really? Well, it really is the search for a mate, why else do it? Lots of other ways to have fun, so despite all the protestations I just like to have a good time with (suprise surprise) an "available" male/female is really about mating, so why kid ourselves otherwise? We don't seem to "date" unavailable people do we? (such as kin, married people, people to old, to young, to ugly, to heathan, a whole laundary list of requirements). We date to mate, regardless of whatever self-deception we may employ to convince ourselves (or those we date) otherwise. There is an exception, people who have no capacity (by choice, or due to character defects) for being safe marital partners still want to enjoy the "benefits" of dating (usually that means sexual access, but in general means getting their needs met...by YOU). These are selfish and for the most part narcissitic people (to one degree or another), "players" is another term. They are driven (as are we all) to seek relationships, but they are emotionally dishonest, in that they will never commit. One of the most important "tools" of dating is to develop skill at discerning such individuals and avoiding (or dropping them) as quickly as possible. Now if YOU are really such a person (and we each should be honest enuf to know that about ourself and admit it to others), at least a honorable one will be upfront about that, and seek only others of similar ilk, and letting go anyone they happen to date when they realize the individual wants more (even if they supposedly had said they didn't up front).

No one wears signs, and none of us understands ourselves perfectly, and many players may very well be buyers, and some buyers may actually be players and just haven't admitted it to themself, they will never commit (reasons unimportant, they just won't alter their life at the basic level required for oneflesh, sometimes refered to as mutual submission). So there will be some confusion, and angst as one experiences these kinds of mismatches. It would be great if only buyers dated buyers and freeloaders dated freeloaders, but life don't work like that, so one must just muddle through the best they can, but strive to be smart, most of the time will be ok. One of the easiest ways to discern a player is their desire for sex outside of marriage with you. Isn't absolute, some people are just confused and think sex builds toward marriage (it doesn't, it actually reduces the likelihood of successful marriage for the same reasons living together does), but pretty much all players go for it fairly quickly, and lose interest if you don't comply..eventually.

Anyways, having said all that, the principle of wanting someone, and dating to achieve that (the means), the rule is pretty straightforward. Since you cannot possible know up front who you should marry, and since you cannot actualize/mature without "other people" you date for a second reason.....although must date to mate, you "date" to find out about yourself, another step of maturation (cause now you have people to push and pull against), and to uncover what you seek in a mate. SOOOO the basic idea is you date anyone who takes an interest in you (or you in them) with very very limited upfront requirements...mostly just that they don't seem dangerous (trust your instincts), are available (not married, engaged, etc.), and meet some basic level of intelligence/appearance etc. That is about it for one date. Then there is an ever increasing "standard" of wanting an additonal date, you are NOT assesing them as someone you would marry on the 2nd, 3rd date. You are assesing simply are they fun and interesting to be with, do you feel good about it, or if unselttled is it because you have found out something about you needing fixing, so you try to fix it within that dating relationship. Dating is supposed to be fun, but it is also supposed to be work, you are practicing self-awareness, conflict resolution etc., MB stuff (like identifying and meeting others needs, as well as communicateing and getting yours met) And also along the way LIT you will come to resolve your trust issues, the work of dating will identify and provide opportunities to resolve any internal problems we have that interfere with being a healthy partner (to anyone). Those who don't understand this process and apply it, are doomed to continue to choose and repeat their relationship errors over and over.

Each dateing experience will have it's own natural life, will grow until you recognize that is it's limit, and you end it..as friends or not, but end it because you are certain it can grow no further (and you will be rejected regularly as well if you date healthy men who apply the same understanding)..eventually one relationship will continue to grow, you will become best friends, and you will marry that best friend.... who you never would have met, if you hadn't "dated" and let it grow.. (and heck you might not even have "liked" the guy as a mate in the beginning, happens all the time). By understanding this process and approaching it proactively (by not giving in to every emotion, good or bad), you have the greatest opportunity for personal growth (so YOU are a good choice for someone), and discovering a good mate. But your reason/goal for dating should be to find out about LIT, not qualify each prospect as potential marraige material, this is the same thing LL is struggling with, because the two motivations are entwined, the way you deal with it is to understand you are dating to find out about you, not to marry the person in front of you. If you date someone long enuf, then you will have to deal with those questions more, do I want to consider this person as "prosepect"...but that is not a focus for an initial date or two or three.

Maybe I'm seeing this too simply, but to me the issue is about honesty, empathy, and compassion. Considering how most of us have BEEN on the hurting end, we should now be especially sensitive to how our actions could hurt others.

I do not see dating as a game, or a strategy. I see it as a way of connecting with other people, trying to be as honest as one can be at the time, and learning to be human again. Regardless of long term motives, or lack thereof, the basics of how to treat people, and the need to be honest about one's intentions are key to any relationship, IMO.

For me, the question is: when does it qualify as a "relationship"? As long as things are casual and still exploratory, I don't see it as a "relationship" yet, and my rules are quite simple. Just be myself, be kind, be honest. As things progress, I will learn how I feel and how long term I am thinking - and when (if) it seems appropriate, I need to be as honest about this with someone else as I am with myself.

Even if my long term motives eventually are focused on finding a permanent partner, the above still holds true for me. Along the way to finding such a partner, there will be others who come and go, and the exploration process will be the starting point with anyone I go out with.

Hi LIT:

Your points are not gender-specific. As a man in virtually the same position that you are; I'm struggling (dealing) with the same issues. Here is my take FWIW!


I feel the trust issue is common and the most important, whether dating or interacting with friends. I have a tendency to focus so much on whether I can trust someone or not, that I don't really get to know them. That's a bad habit to get into, and frankly I'm making it a point to get over it. The reality is - we are blaming others for the dishonesty that our x's chose. Not fair!


It doesn't matter what it's called and whether we're looking for a LTR or not. In other words, to me - dating means that I desire to spend one on one time with someone in order to have some fun, get to know them better, and allow them to know me better. I don't even want to consider whether they are "marriage-material" right now. It puts way too much pressure on the "date" itself, and thusly each other. I say; go out & have fun with as few preconceived notions or personal agendas as possible. Just enjoy the "moments". The personal attraction will take care of itself one way or another.


I understand your question and cannot speak for those men. I would guess that many men (and women) will consider it a date, regardless of what your desires are. I simply end those relationships, because there is a clear sign of mistrust.




See above. It's a shame that we have to be "guarded" during any 1-on-1 events. Perhaps you could take a little emphasis off the label of dating and/or friendship. My daughter calls it an "outing". "Dad, did you go on an "outing"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LIT: One of the biggest steps I took in recovery was to put aside my "worry" about whether I could trust another or not. (I hate ulcers!) Facts are: We will know pretty quickly the answer to this during an "outing" or two. The key is to recognize the sign(s) when they happen!

Just relax, have fun and listen to your instincts! If and when it's meant to happen - you will know!

Good luck. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

FR

dating is going out with the opposite sex to

one, get experience in a social, one on one, setting
two, determine if the person you are dating has qualities that you can define him as a friend. . .
three, practice or hone your dysfunctional guydar. . .

wiftty

I think you have to know what YOU want - short-term and long-term, and these *wants* may change, and thats OK. IMO, the important thing is to be honest with yourself, and with whoever you're in a "relationship" with. Relationship COULD BE male friend, meeting someone, 1st date, 2nd date, 3rd date, 6 monhts, someone interested in you, you're interested in them, any/all of the above! Honesty keeps things on track.

When you date, and are getting to know each other, you DO have these conversations! Really! "What are you looking for? What do you want?" etc. So... LIT... you need to figure this out FOR YOURSELF. And be ready to answer/discuss these things with your potental dates. It's not as frightful as it seems. It's just sorta like "how long have you lived here?" and stuff like that! My answer goes something like this (when I started dating 3 years ago, and again now as I'm ending a recent relationship) : "I'd like to marry again one day - to grow old with someone. But for now, I'm not in a hurry. Just looking for companionship, and to meet new people." I look at "dating" as someone to do stuff with - dinner, movies, walks, concerts, etc., "for now"... as long as we enjoy each others' company, and we'll see where it takes us. We have to be honest with each other. When my last BF and I started dating, we always said a playful thing that we always said, that we were happy together "for now", meaning we didn't know how long our journey together would last (maybe we were both kinda scared of LTR?), but we enjoyed it, and it did last for 2 and 1/2 yrs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Faith1

Knight - very extensive insight! I think I would agree with you on almost everything you said.
I suppose that's another reason why I'm trying to figure out if I am ready or not. There are aspects to myself which I cannot really know until I am dating - trust questions, implementing my own discoveries, and 'working' with a person. I have implemented in my own personal life with friends and coworkers, but part of me needs to see if I can balance trust with emotional intimacy - and not either perform as a bitter divorcee or as a dependent clingon.


It's very odd that you mention this. Radical honesty is something not many people subscribe to apparently! I have been implementing this type of honesty in my current non-romantic relationships. And it's really difficult to get someone to be honest with you.

For instance - I have a guy friend who I recently met. We admit that we are attracted to each other, but have not progressed any further. Now we will go out and do things together and speak with each other on a somewhat personal level. But I have noticed that when he goes on a 'date' with another woman, he will try to 'cover it up' or he will 'leave out' certain things. Then the truth comes out over time, and if I call him out on it, he says 'well, I didn't want to hurt you.' He subscribes to the philosophy that you don't need to tell someone if you think it will hurt them.

He and I had a big discussion yesterday because I told him I did not want to be 'protected' from my feelings. I told him that he and I were not in a relationship, and not dating, and that I really don't want to be in a friendship that is not honest. I also told him that I would be honest and up front about my feelings as well. I reitterated how important honesty was for me - and that I would be honest if I felt hurt, and then we would evaluate our friendship at that time. But for the moment, even though I am attracted to this man.....I'm not ready to date him, and his 'dating' women does not bother me....so there's no reason to lie to me about it.

It really reminded me of how my exH and I used to try to 'sugar coat' or 'avoid' communicating our real feelings because we 'didn't want to hurt' the other.....or we didn't want to 'make them angry.' I told this friend of mine that I want to OWN my own emotions and feelings. And that by his worrying that I would get hurt or upset from him telling me things.....that it was not letting me be responsible for my own emotions.

Now whether this friendship will continue remains to be seen. I don't know if he can actually trust that I don't want or need to be protected.

But so many people are like that - not wanting to bring something up because they are afraid of hurting the other. It's taken me so long to actually realize it, but avoidance is not at all the answer. We might as well be radically honest, and face things head on. Anger is OK. Sadness is OK. Happiness is OK. They are all part of a normal relationship. And just because you might be 'angry' or 'sad' about something doesn't mean you like or love the person any less.

Anyway, I will take to heart what you have said, and do an evaluation of myself. I feel like for the most part I am healthy. I like who I am, am happy in my current situation, and am enjoying what life has to offer. And I feel very confident about what I have learned here, in counseling, and from my past M. The only real questions I have left are about trust. And that may be one of those that I need to 'push' and 'pull' on.

Thanks for the input!

Deja,

I really like what you said as well. Particularly about just 'being yourself.'

I struggled with that greatly in the past. I didn't want to lose my exH, and thought that if I became everything HE wanted, then he would love me. It wasn't until Feb of last year that I finally realized that I have to be myself. So I have been practicing for about a year and a half now.....practicing on how NOT to lose myself in a relationship - with friends, coworkers, counseling group.

For the first time in a very LONG while, I am happy with who I am. And I don't want to lose that. It feels good to stand up for myself, my values, and my beliefs. And it's important to be honest as well.

I really like what you said....thank you!

Fishracer! It's good to know that someone else is dealing with this issue as well! And it's also nice to know that there really are people who are 'exploring' without feeling like they have to evaluate for an LTR now. Maybe I am not as off course as I thought I was!

But this doesn't mean that you 'blindly' trust, correct? I wonder if my 'concern' about guarding myself against blind trust is what I'm interpreting as 'worry.' I know what I want (radical honesty) with people, and I'm finally not afraid to ask for it. If I don't get it, I'm also not afraid anymore to leave that relationship - no matter what kind it is.

So I wonder if I am my issue with trust is more about wanting to trust myself that I can do what I need to do.

I'm not sure if that made any sense! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for sharing some of the same feelings!

Wiffty - I LIKE that about the guydar. I think that's it - I want to make sure that I pick up on those things! And I hope that I can - and then do what I need to do!

Faith - yes.....I do know what I want now. And I am OK with saying it and standing up for it. And I like how you worded it - without being offensive, but with being honest.

I have tried this with a guy friend of mine (see above post) and I am INCREDIBLY honest about what I am ready for in the here and now. But he also knows that one day I would like to remarry and have a family, etc. Just that now is not quite the right time. For the most part, it seems to bode well - keeps him clear on where I stand. Feels good to be honest with yourself, and to be able to voice it!

I'm glad you enjoyed your journey together - and it sounds like a very healthy relationship even if it ended! Congrats Faith!!!!!!

Hi LIT:




Correct! What I should've said is: "...whether I was capable of trusting another or not." Blind trust should only come after years of continued "trust but verify" action.


It sounds this way. Perhaps if you could "postpone" your desire for blind trust, your sense of worry would go away. Harley says that blind trust is never good. I understand his point, but slightly disagree with his message. I feel that all of us desire to blindly trust our spouse. It has to do with vulnerability. And after many years of successful trusting; I feel we should allow ourselves that greatest pleasure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


That's a great statement! Very excellent boundaries set. I'm with ya on that one! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I'm not sure. I don't sense that, but you ultimately have to make that determination. I feel that it goes back to the "blind trust" issue - and your desire to have it. If you can release that for a while, I feel your life will have less worry. JMHO!

FR <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />