FAR-

Do you have SpectorPro Spyware 5.0 (think I have the name correct)? Put it in "stealth mode" and she won't know it is there and you can get e-mail (without the password to acct), websites visited, screen shots, IM, etc. It's very thorough and cannot be detected or affected by anti-spyware at this time.

I have good spyware. She does not suspect I am hacking.

We transplanted from Dallas to San Diego almost two years ago. I got a good job out here, and it is very nice. Kinda hot, though. Its gonna hit 85 today, I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mel - a wierd day, indeed. I will post about it later.

Oops. /She just walked up and saw my post.

Except that she snuck up behind me and saw the last post. Oh well - that source is gone. I think, now that she is exposed, that it is gonna die soon anyway.

WHAT A NIGHT!!!!
ACID EVERYWHERE

She even send DD11 into the room I was in to read from Luke about hypocrisy. She is off her rocker. She keeps bringing up my issues (we've all got em) and saying that she is not taking mine public. She said "what if I told your parents" - I told her they know. (past internet porn addiction) She was not sure what to say. AFter a couple of beers and a couple of shots of schnapps, she started discussing all of this in front of our 6 yr old son, 11 yr old daughter and 3 yr old daughter. I am taking careful notes. I asked her could we discuss this later - she did not heed that.

One issue that I see is a possible problem. Last summer she approached me with some documentation for D, from a cheap internet legal documenting company (a real company that does the docs for you, then you take them to the courthouse). I signed some of them - at the time not knowing that I should not. Way less educated than now, I fell for the "if you love me you will let me go" crap. She never filed - fearful to be the one in the kid's eyes who is ripping the family apart. The docs are only good for uncontested D. At this point, that ain't happening. She brought them up, and I think she may move on filing. I guess I need to call my attorney and get moving on legal stuff.

She is pissed that I got into her email.

She is pissed at a lot right now.

I will stand strong. Thanks for preparing me.

How long should I expect she will be the cobra? Do I attempt any conversation right now?

She is a smart cookie. She figured I had been in her email before she saw my spyware post. NOBODY else knew about this affair.

She asked tonite if any more bombs were coming - I did not ask if she knew that I called OMW - I just told her I was not doing anything else. (called OMW first...)

Too much to document what she said tonite. She called while I was at urgent care with DS6 (strep), and asked for my computer password. She REALLY wants to get into my computer. Won't happen, but I would not be suprised to come home and find out it "accidently fell off the counter". Was really worried about that tonite.

Oh well - gotta get my battle sleep!

FAR,

The WS is looking for a fight. Be slick as oil and don't give her any. Learn t/d the reverse babble and give her back her acidlike questions.

ex:

WS: I'm telling.

BS: Tell what?

WS: About you.

BS: Ok. The good and bad or just the bad?

WS: Just the bad.

BS: Ok. Who are you telling?

WS: Everyone. Your parents, mine, your work, etc.....

BS: Ok. I'll let them know you will be contacting them to give them this info.

WS: No. Don't do that.

BS: Oh but I must. Go ahead. I have to other things to do now.

This is not a threat. You contact all those she 'bluffed' you about. Remember don't treat it as a bluff. Just act. NO more warning. Here's another example:

WS: U have been getting into my e-mail. You are invading my privacy.

BS: What do you have that is soo private from your own H?

WS: Doesn't matter, you invaded my privacy.

BS: Hm..... welll thanks for letting me know you have something to hide.

WS: What does that mean?

BS: It means you have something to hide. I have things t/d now. Please leave me alone.

WS: What are you going t/d?

BS: Stuff. You don't want to invade my privacy right or do you have double standards also?

WS: I don't have double standards. Do what you like. I don't care.

BS: Ok.

At this point, you go be busy. Even if it is a walk around the block..... take your cell phone and let her know you did .

This is reverse babble. Taking the WS' stupid remarks and giving them back their own babble. It isn't easy and you may need to practice in front of a mirror.

Why do this? To confuse the WS. When she is acting like your W, treat her well, cordial at minimum. When she is acting like the WS, treat her fair but do not compromise nor accept her babble.

Here's a 3rd example:

WS: You have put some sort of spyware on the computer. How dare you invade my privacy.

BS: Yes I did put spyware. Why are you giving me reason to do so?

WS: uh... I am uhh..... not giving you reason.

BS: You are having an A. You already have compromised my trust in you. I put on that program to see what other hurtful schemes you are planning t/d to our family. Not sure if your OM is also hacking into our computer. He seems t/b hacking into our M and you are letting him.

Then walk away. Leave her in a dazed and wondering state. If she so much as stutters, you know you have her confused. The more angry she gets the less she is in control. Use that to your advatage but also protect yourself and your family. This includes financial protection.

L.

FAR, why does she want to get in your computer?

Orchid, those were some fantastic examples of RB!

FAR, you have been doing great , never doubting yourself and continuing on with The Plan. Put on your full BS armour today -- you're gonna need it! Make sure you include the sunglasses. That Cobra is spittin' mad.

On second thought, maybe safety goggles would be more effective? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Be strong, and check in when you can.


best wishes,


slh

I had a similar issue on the paperwork. My attorney made it very simple to go away. All you have to do is have your attorney send her a registered letter, which states something to the following: "As of this date, I rescind any agreements that may have been previously made concerning separation, divorce, child custody or division of marital assets. All agreements previously signed or verbally registered are now null and void."

Get that out quickly, so that any documents you previously signed will be irrelevent.

In His arms.

FAR - And let her know that we would welcome hearing from her here. Maybe she could use some support right now. Or a place to vent.

Okee dokee.

She is around and I have a little time to post. But I am plan A like crazy, and she said something to the effect of being bewildered by me.

Will keep you all posted Thanks for all of the support.

c

Hang in there. We are praying for you, and supporting you. Will she do anything fun with you? See if you can get her to do something she enjoys.

FAR, again, you are doing great! I know I haven't posted much on your thread but that's just 'cause I haven't had much to say -- you are doing it all by the book, and I have no words of wisdom like so many others. . . nothing but support.

But keep up the fantastic work and keep Plan A'ing ~<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As Believer said, she is always welcome -- we'd chat with her if she'd like some support. Please share that with her if you think she may be interested.

prayers,

slh

FAR- I know your time is limited here right now. But you just have to see this post by MM to Gramn --



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gramn...(Thanks for your returned support...my H and I are working on our EN Questionaires right now...say a prayer that we are guided in the right direction)

Please don't get discouraged, stick with the plan, so far it has produced the exact results that the "vets" told you it would, you can't give up, keep forging ahead...if it were me, I would print out or just read and re-read MortarMan's posts...use the advice of others as inspiration, but it seems to me that MortarMan has "the other team's playbook" and is so adept at breaking it down for you play-by-play...glad to know that we had/and hopefully still have people like him in our military...God Bless the U.S.A.!

NOW, ARE ALL OF YOU "VETS" LISTENING?...I'm still so very new in my/our recovery that I'm afraid of giving the wrong advice...so please, if I do, let Gramn(and me)know...I really want to help, but I don't want to do more harm than good...

This is something that my husband did that worked on me...think it might work for Gramn too??? As the WS, you really are embarrassed/ashamed of your behavior once it is revealed(otherwise you wouldn't be hiding it, right?), but pride and all the other bad feelings that you are going through act as "blockers" for your "opening up" to your spouse(at least for me). My husband kinda of opened things up for me by saying, that he understood how our marriage was "ripe" for an affair to happen...he said that he knew that he had not been a "good" husband (he never mentioned that I had not been a "good" wife-though VERY true...he knew how fragile my state was).

Anyway, it was this environment that made me feel that I could begin to talk to him about what I had done(WSes are very self-centered, and love to talk about themselves and their super "unique" situations)...he opened the door a crack for me, held out his hand and slowly I began to reach for it little by little.

He also just left "Surviving an Affair" sitting around in the open without ever even suggesting that I read it...one night when I felt soooo...low, and was racking my brain for any way that I could ease my own pain, I began to read it of my own avail and my fog began to lift bit-by-bit...Baby steps in the right direction...Do you guys see something like that working for Gramn?

Gramn, I hope that God sees fit to use even a tiny tidbit of "my story" to help you in some way...I would be so very honored if He would use me in this way...if you have ANY questions about what the WW wife is "thinking" I'd be glad to shed any light that I can...but always check with the "pros" before taking any of my novice/possible fog filled advice. They are so right about this stuff...Affairs REALLY DON"T survive the light of day, no kidding!!!

One day I hope that your wife comes here to read as I have and is just as amazed as I have been about how very predictable the behavior that, trust me on this, she thought was so "unique" to her and her situation actually is...it's almost comical how identical that we all(WSes) are.

God is with you on this, and will move mountains for you if you let Him...take good care of you Gramn!

WWWondering


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gramn, WWW is right on. While you wait (and do the things I listed before), you begin to seed the environment, just as she said. How? Well, first...no accusations. Everything is matter-of-fact. Pretend like you know "everything." Second, listen. Dont lash at her...let her speak. It is now that she will begin to talk, begin to spill out all of the things in her head. As she does that, you just say things like "Honey, I didnt know that...I'm sorry that hurt you." Or "So how do you feel about that?" Answer her accusations and denouncements of you with questions. She says "You were never there for me." You say: "Honey, I am so sorry you ever felt that way. I am so sorry that you have ever felt that way." Then...say nothing!! Let the silence be deafening. Let her become uncomfortable. It is i nthis moment that she will hear herself...and she will move to the next stage in her communications with you.

That stage is awareness. She begins to become aware of just how silly she sounds. She begins to have that embarassment that WWW talked about start to hit home. She begins to see herself as she really is...dirt and all.

But guess what else she begins to see? She begins to see a guy she doesnt quite recognize. She expected her accusations abd bile to be met with defensive words, and even with throwing the affair back in her face. She never expected the guy she is hurting so much to sit there and listen and to actually find sympathy for her. For the first time since this whole sordid thing started, she actually has one person she can discuss everything with. She has someone that understands her, and understands her life leading up to this (tell me if this doesnt ring true, WWW). Oh, she is mad as hell at you...no doubt. But she is also confused because the guy she is most mad at she begins to realize that she doesnt want to do without.

Ever see the movie "The Story of Us" with Bruce Willis and Michelle Pfeiffer. It is brilliant in playing out the mid-life issues of marriages. But what I wanted to hone in on was the end of the movie. Where Michelle, who has been pressing the separation and divorce...has that "lightbulb" moment. Where she can see clearly what she has...and what she is about to lose. So she begins a diatribe about how they have history, a family. About all of the little things she forgot about while she was lost in the negatives. She talked about how she knew Bruce had negatives...but dont we all. And that no matter who we are with, this will always be the case. As I have always said...if you find the perfect man or woman to be your spouse...dont marry them. you will only screw up their lives!! That's a joke...as you know.

Anyway, what I am trying to tell you (and WW istelling you from one who is just coming out of this as a WW) is that your wife needs you. My wife even said a few days ago something interesting. I asked "Do you love me?" She said "Yes...but sometimes I hate you!" And said it with a slight smile on her face. And you know what? I can accept that. I can now accept that sometimes, I do not like my wife...and that is okay. And the marriage and family are okay if my wife is completely POed at me today.

Your wife will, as most WSs do...have that "lightbulb" moment. And who will have been there for her, to help guide her to that moment...even when she didnt want him to? That would be you!! Who will be there when the moment happens, and she breaks down in sobs that you never ever want to hear out of your wife? That will be you. Who will drop the hurt and anger atyour wife in a second to hold her and help her heal first, even though it was you that was betrayed? Well, it aint fair...but that guy is YOU!!

I talked about what God expects outta you. He expects you to die for your wife. To put her interests and wellbeing ahead of your own. Sometimes that means tough love. Sometimes that means just listening, when you want to unload on her. Sometimes that means forgiveness, even when forgiveness wasnt asked for.

I hope you are beginning to see this. Your wife is beginning to change. The person she becomes at the end of this will not be the same person that came into it. Neither will it be for you.

But guess who has the major influence in what she becomes? You do! From TopRope: "Sometimes the last person you WANT to help you is the ONLY One who CAN!" That is you, Gramn.

You know, during the affair, when my wife left me and the kids...I looked at my daughter (who is a spittign image of her mom) and just wanted to cry that her role model was such a mess. That my daughter would not have the woman my wife used to be in order to help her grow to be a Godly woman.

Guess what I think now? First, I think that my daughter has slowly watched a woman dealing with many "demons" in her life that were there from childhood. My daughter has watched over the last three years a woman come to grips with her sin, and begin to try to become who she should have been all along.

But added to that...if you ask my daughter who has had the greatest impact on her life, on her family and on her mom becoming who she is becoming...she will tell you that it is me. She has seen me a mess and ready to give up...only to step back up the next day and try again. She has seen her mom go off about me, only to end back up in my bedroom. She has seen a tremendous amount of pain caused by her mom on everyone in the family...and watched her dad defend her and keep her on that pedestal.

Your daughter is too young to understand. And years from now, she will forget the whole thing. But I can bet, when she is my daughter's age (11), she will wonder what could have been if your marriage fails. What will your daughter understand about what happened? What did her father do to save her family and protect her? How far did he go for her mother, to save and protect her?

Of course, should your marriage make it, your daughter will almost assuredly never know about this. But your wife will. And your daughter will grow up looking at your wife look at you. Guess what your daughter will see out of her mom? Guess what your daughter will hear as her mom talks about her dad. It is my guess that you will take on almost mythical proportions.

Gramn, since you are in the middle of the battle, it is hard to see the end. And in some ways, there will never be an "end." Satan will always try to tear down your family. You will always have to be on guard, be watchful for "wolves." You will always have to look out for your wife, and see to it that she never again feels so alone and in need of someone to rescue her. God gave you the headship of the family. Not yoru wife. With that power, also comes responsibility. If the wolves get in due to your negligence, God will not hold your wife responsible. He will hold you responsible.

Forget a lot of this equality stuff out there. Sure, men and women are equal in so many ways. But we are different. She isnt a man with different plumbing. She NEEDS you. She has no way to protect herself from this...apart from Christ and you. And Christ will use the chain-of-command to get thru to her.

The question now is...do you trust Him? As I said before, this battle is about you, Gramn. It isnt about your wife. Your wife is being torn apart by the Enemy, and so is your family. As I was...you should be pissed off about that.

As Mimi said...it is all about "man up." There is no one on this planet that can save your family. No one. Not Dr. Harley. Not your wife. Not your daughter. Not me. No one...but you.

And now that we have put all of that weight on your shoulders...how do you feel? If I am guessing right...you actually feel good. Because men are made and built for times such as these.

In His arms.

Hi found.

Quote:
===================================
How long should I expect she will be the cobra? Do I attempt any conversation right now?
===================================

That hissing spitting thing in your house doesn't know that it is completely unjustified in its actions and thoughts. It will eventually figure out that its actions and thoughts are wrong. In the mean time, don't try to charm it. Don't talk to it, and avoid it. If it should try to bite you, call the police. I am serious.

In time, your wife, the real one, not the super entitled hissing thing that actually believes that the world, you, me, anyone, owes her something, will emerge from that snake skin she is in.

God willing, she will quickly discover a simple truth about herself, her life, and what she thinks are her rights, and that is; 'all that glitters, is not gold'.

Since she will be reading all the posts here shortly, and this forum will become mostly useless to you, I want to leave this thought with your wife.

The guy sitting across the room from you, loves you more than your mind can comprehend right now. He has walked through hell for you, and he will yet do it more. Here is the rub, wife of foundareason, he won't wait forever on you to realize what you have done or what is waiting for you. One other thing, and I intend to pose no fear in you, just a simple piece of truth. Since you are a believer, God has a certain 'right' to your life. He won't cross your will, so you can continue to make the bad choices that you are making, but I promise you this, he is going to make your life miserable until you take matters up, in earnest, with him. You and your family would be greatly served if you go ahead and get to it.

God bless you folks.
Gimble

I am taking the day off tomorrow. WE went and watched fireworks with the two young ones, tonite, hope to go to the beach tomorrow.

I am racking my brain thinking of ideas to "date" her. She is very unwilling. She not happy with me right now. She is a master dabater. RB is hard to implement.

Will post more tomorrow after I get some sleep.

Thanks for the support.

c

Wow - I added the last entry before reading all of the encouragement you guys have sent me.

I have so many questions, and many flee before I can grab them and put them here.

I will write stream of conciousness here:

Q? - SF was not properly taken care of by myself for probably our whole M. (nor by WW, in my opinion) I was slow to move and kinda timid. Then, for the last 6 years or so, a child has been in our bed. I know what you all will say about it - but it is nothing I can change now. I want to tell her that I know that it was not stellar, that it will be different in the future. I want to write a note and let her know this.
The crazy thing is we both have a high sex drive, and just never got in synch. Is now a bad time to write that note? Have any of you exerperieced this?

Believer - I read Gramns post b4 I got to mine, so I saw the post from Mortar. I copied it and emailed it to myself, hoping that WW will read it when I invite her to download and read all of my email. (I got my own jewel like that a few days ago, and cherish it.) I post things to myself there - stuff I would not say to her right now but am thinking. (comments on that, please..)

I am about to print and give her a letter apologizing for ever taking my ring off, ever leading her to believe that I wanted anything but for this M to survive, for the sporadic addction to internet porn, for not fighting for this marriage since - ah hell - here it is:

____________________________________________
July 3, 2005

***** –

I need to apologize for several things.

I apologize for ever removing my wedding ring. I was confused about feelings I was having, and regret ever removing it. I am still married to you, and will act like it from now on.

I am sorry for ever indicating that I want to be anything but married to you. Things that I have said that lead you to believe that I had conceded it was over were said thinking that you would decide to come back to the marriage. I have never wanted anything but to heal this marriage. I regret signing any paperwork that could do any harm to this marriage.

I apologize for the times that I have fallen to the lure of internet pornography. Many nights for the last 6 or 7 years I would come to bed, and get the cold shoulder, or the child in the bed would push me out. I, too, have a large need for sexual fulfillment, and would turn to the porn to alleviate that frustration. I should have dealt with it long ago. I have been free from the claws of pornography since the beginning of this year, with the exception of a two week relapse in May. I think we should spend a lot of time talking about my issue with that. I think we will both learn a lot about each other.

I apologize for not fighting for this marriage when I found out about the first affair. I did not know what to do at the time, and I regret that. I had a lot of changing to do, and it has taken a long time. I still have a lot to change in me. I understand that you feel you have a lot of contemplation to do yourself.

We have a lot to talk about, and I look forward to a time when we can spend a lot of time in conversation.

I am committed to doing everything I can to make this marriage work. I know that it can, if you would give it a chance.

I am always here to listen to anything you wish to discuss. I miss our late night conversations on the sofa, which were becoming more common until May.

I want to know your dreams. I want to hear about your thoughts, your feelings.
___________________________________________________________

I am about to edit it to remove anything that might be construed as finger pointing.

Tonite on the way home, WW and I talked (after the kids were asleep) about the current sitch. She said - has said b4 - that she feels this whole save the marriage thing is about me. (implying self centeredness) I did not respond much to her. I had not yet read MMs post, but will not attempt comm for the next few days. Only listen. ONLY LISTEN. ONLY LISTEN. Okay. Maybe I will keep my mouth shut. Plus, I keep coming back to the comments from you vets - "do not listen to anything they say", but I wanted to report all the details for any interpretation.

I do not know if she will come to MB, but I did send her an email a few moments ago telling her that I am getting therapy (for free!) here. SHE READ CHAPTER 13 OF HNHN!!!!
Of course, she pointed out, that she read it b4 she found out I sent notes to her mom and sister. At some point she texted me "I have had no further contact with John, and will have no further contact." I do not know if that came b4 MIL and SIL received their exposure letters. If it came b4 - OMG - she was reaching out!! (remember - stream of conciousness here..)

Lessee - Oh well - I will come back and ramble some more later.

Now that I think about it - should I change my letter at all?

OH! WW is pouting because she knows I have spyware on her computer. She wants her privacy.

Comments?

FAR,

There is no privacy in marriage, only secrecy.

Don't do it!

Cat

There is no real reasoning with her at this point is my thoughts, FAR.

You can do NOTHING that will make her happy while she's enamoured with the OM, and with the whole excitement of what's been going on.

If you do end up talking about the spyware, you might calmly discuss the difference between privacy and secrecy. You might also point out to her that married couples should have nothing to hide from each other...it was agreeing to that "privacy" that allowed her affair to go on as long as it did.

Gently remind her that you are fighting for your MARRIAGE...not for her affair. That you've got no intentions of allowing any measures that will sustain her efforts to keep this inappropriate relationship going.

Eventually, she'll need to re-build trust with you. Only by demonstrating trustworthiness will she be able to do so. That means you have to SEE that she's being honest and trustworthy...and while she may not believe it now, once the fog has cleared, the odds are she won't care about the spyware.

My wife had an online EA...we went through similar battles over my "checking" on her. But, after the withdrawl and fog began to clear, she accepted that I needed the reassurance of knowing that NC was in place.

Honestly, there's not going to be much reasoning with her. Simply don't give in to unreasonable demands, and keep any efforts of justifying your behavior to a minimum...it's HER behavior that's the issue...not yours. She needs to realize that if she hadn't started something like this, there would be no need for you to fight in this manner for your marriage. But that realization is likely a ways away yet friend.

Many nights for the last 6 or 7 years I would come to bed, and get the cold shoulder, or the child in the bed would push me out. . .
------------------------------------------------

FAR,

This is MVHO, so others may differ, but you may want to consider removing what I've bolded above. WW may very well have given you the cold shoulder, and knows it because she did it on purpose too, but I'm not sure now would be the most advantageous time to point that out to her, as she will only get rankled if she's indeed that sensitive to things.

Perhaps insert "feel your disinterest" or something to that effect. . .somthing that will not put her on the defensive??

DUDE!! BTW, ya gotta bring the little ones to bed in their own rooms if you want some! My H has this problem too. They crawl in bed with me after I'm asleep and then H comes in later and instead of carrying them off to their rooms and then initating SF, he just pushes them over and gets in too. Hardly romantic, huh? LOL

There were times I allowed them in bed with me before I was asleep, just to snuggle, to hug and love on, and we'd conk out together. H would get upset with me for encouraging this but he was always doing SolidWorks behind the computer, etc and their attention and love was (sadly) filling a void for me. Is this why your kiddos were in bed, FAR? Or are they just standard Toddlers/Preschoolers who like to sleep with Mom & Dad because it's novel & fun?

Didn't know if that was still an issue but thought I would ask.

Pornagraphy / sexual Addiction is an incredibly tough thing to beat. I haven't met anyone IRL who actually has, but I have seen my dearest friends' 11 year marriage finally fall apart despite world-renowned SA therapists, etc. I applaud you, FAR. Your Faith and Determination to retake your marriage is an inspiration.


slh

"Many nights for the last 6 or 7 years I would come to bed, and get the cold shoulder, or the child in the bed would push me out. I, too, have a large need for sexual fulfillment, and would turn to the porn to alleviate that frustration."

I would delete part of this...leave this-

I, too, have a large need for sexual fulfillment, and would turn to the porn to alleviate that frustration....

Adding...

And for that I am sorry, I should have come and talked to you about that. Had I done that, I would have known you were just as frustrated and we could have worked on a solution together.

Remove the rest as it sounds like your 'blaming' those things for your decision to turn to porn. Yes, they may have played a part, but it was still your choice to turn to porn and NOT talk to your wife.