Well, I started out in the "Just Found Out" forum, moved to "General Questions" and now I am here! (It has been a long year!)

I have started seeing a very nice attractive woman. We have gone out about 6 or 7 times and she seems to really like me. She has this habit though of sometimes backing down from plans only to call me and make new plans. Is this normal? Is she trying to make me "pursue" her more? Is she testing me to see if I am sincere? I don't think she is seeing someone else and at this point, it is ok because I am just getting my feet wet in this dating thing.

When we go out, I always take her to very nice restruants. I listen much more than I talk. I always pay. I open doors for her and tell her how nice she looks when she arrives. I sent her a single rose at her work one day and she told me she loved it. I give her a warm hug when we part (no other physical contact yet though).

What should I do next? Do I hold her hand? Do I give her a kiss? Do I get more romantic? I guess I just don't know what to do to take it to the next level.

So ladies, what would you want a gentleman to do?

Thanks,
Keith

I would ask her what she wants. Does she see this as a friendship or can it progress to a relationship, and if so how should you proceed.
Now is the time to implement the MB principles of communication.

Hi Keith,

Sorry to see no has answered you. Here's my opinion:

What does she do when you hug her? Does she soften into you? Does she look into your eyes? Or, does she stiffen? Does she try to pull away?

If you're getting a positive response, hold her a bit longer, pull back but don't let go then look her in the eyes & go in for a kiss, maybe the check first, see what she does, if positive go for her lips.

About the changing plans. Does she cancel or rearrange? If you make plans & half the time she cancels I'd say look closer at what's going on. If she rearranges due to a busy schedule, she has kids or family obligations, it would be polite of her to let you know this. Can you ask her why she has rescheduled so often?

Good advice from Nams.
I would kiss her next time and see how she reacts. Just be open and honest with her about how you feel.
I can only speak for myself but I've learned that I just have to say what's on my mind and be honest....
Most women just want honesty!!! Can't go wrong there!!!!
Keep us posted!

Honestly, I really appreciated a man who talked with me about where he was at and my expectations. Of course, I'm a woman who's very open and loves to talk about relationship "stuff -- that's why I'm here, in part--and she may not be. But if it was me, I'd bring it up. Casually.


Mrs. W8ing

keith,

if she is your first date after your divorce, just continue to see other women, and see how different ones react, and which you feel more comfortable with...

the fact that you have questions means that you need more experience, and you can't get more experience from just one woman. . .

you need to know what you like in a woman, and what YOU see as red flags. . . and this may be one of them. . . its a subtle control issue if you ask me. . .

those issues could get bigger in a marriage..

but you WON'T know until after you get some VARIED experience to know what you want and like. . .

wiftty

Thanks for the answer's everyone. To answer some of your questions...

1. The couple of times she has backed out of a date, she let's me know why. However, it does bother me when she calls to reschedule.

2. When I give her a hug she hugs me back. It is more like a friendship hug at this point. I really don't want to give her the impression that I am after sex (which I am not) and be all over her.

In reading your answers, I need to just have a talk with her. I want her to know I am very attracted to her warm personality and her stunning looks. I don't want it to sound like a come-on though. I also don't want her to feel that I am going too fast and flipping for her.

We went out about a week ago and we both had family plans for this weekend. I sent her another flower at work on Friday with a simple note that said "Hope this makes your day". I just got back so maybe I will hear back from her this week. (I hope).

Another question for you... Do women get insulted when men try to become physical? I mean like holding hands, arm around shoulder, good night kiss? Or am I sending the wrong signals by not trying? I knew how to give physical affection to my X but am so new to dating!!!

Also, I have been seeing an old girlfriend from high school. Her husband and my X are both WS's and she is going through a divorce. We have renewed an old friendship and have helped each other lots through the rough spots. Nothing romantic yet (nor maybe never). She has been hurt so incredibly bad that all I want to do is help her. This coming weekend we may get together and do something with her kids. It really makes me feel good when she tells me how much I have helped her. She is a sweetheart and I could see myself falling for her at some point though.

Keith

Just be careful. To answer your question...No, I don't think a woman would be affended if you put your arm around her or hugged her and gave her a good night kiss. Hell.....I welcome that when it's time for me. LOL...

Well, I think the relationship may be over. Since I originally posted this we have gone out about a dozen times. We hit it off very good and I could tell we were starting to enjoy each other's company.

But.... She keeps backing down from plans at the last minute. Last weekend she was supposed to be at my place at 5:30 and I was going to take her to dinner. She left a message at 2:00 saying that she wanted to reschedule (AGAIN!!!) because an old girl-friend she worked with called and wanted to go out.

This really, really bothered me. If I make plans with someone, I DON'T BACK out. Given the fact that she has done this too many times, I did not call her back and the kids and I went out and did something together. Have not heard from her since.

Dating is new to me. Was I wrong to be upset by this?

Keith

Hi Keith,

I don't think your wrong at all, and I think you are wise to move one.
And, good for you for taking your kids and going and doing something!

It appears to me, she is accepting these dates with you, but if [in her mind] a better opportunity comes along, she will take it.

I don't think that is what you want.

This dating thing is not easy at this point in life.
When we were younger and carefree, it seemed much less involved.
I guess we have gotten to a point in our lives where we are tired of the games. We can thank our x's for that!!

Best wishes,
Karona

Thanks Karona,

That's exactly how I have felt through dating her... I am ok but if something else comes along, just drop Keith and do something else.

It frustrated me though... I make great money, have a beautiful home, am in excellent shape and was very, very careful with the relationship. I wanted to start out as friends and see what would happen from there. Took her to nice restruants, opened doors, always told her when she arrived how nice she looked, gave her a single rose at the end of the date, etc... I did not want to overwhelm her but wanted her to know that I was interested. In retrospect, I really never got any of that back from her.

Yes, dating is so hard and maybe it is too early for me. It is just so incredibly lonely when the kids are with my X.

Well Keith,

I can tell you by what you are describing, this would be the kind of guy I would hope to meet up with one day.
It sounds like you do/did respectful things that I would think most women would welcome.

Its hard to say where this woman is at in her own journey in life.
It's possible she is only out for a good time, and is not ready for more.

On a positive note though, be glad you found this out early on before deep feelings got involved. Once there are deep feelings.....well you know.

I don't feel that you should change your values, but maybe just the type of woman.

As far as the lonliness when the kids are with the x, if it helps, I know about that too. So, your not alone!! It's makes a long weekend, extra long! Hang in there.

Good luck!
Karona

Hi Keith,

It does seem rude that she will cancel plans if something comes up spontaneously.

People only treat you as well as you let them, however. It is clearly time to think about boundaries you should set in dating. You might have learned more about her motives if you had told her clearly how hurt you were by her treatment. That you felt second to her in importance to these other activities she scheduled while breaking dates with you. Being a nice guy and romancing her with flowers and expensive dinners while she treats you like an ugly red headed stepchild is not exactly being fair to yourself. You are worthy of treatment reflective of the way you treat someone else.

V.

Karona & Sunny,

Thanks for your feedback...

If you want some interesting reading, check out some of my posts from when my wife left me:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=036353#000009

As I read some of my old posts today, it brough back a lot of painful memories. In retrospect, I had no choice but to divorce her. But, I do miss her.

Keith

I don't understand what your x is/was looking for.
I never can understand how the cheating spouse thinks that leaving their family and immediately running to another is a solution or how it could even possbily work for that matter.

I'm not so sure she is going to find what she is looking for.
She seems to be extreme in her choices of men. [meaning way different ends of the spectrum]

I hope she continues to stay in counseling for her sake, and your children's.

Karona

Then you must find someone that respects, admires, and is enthusiastic about you. Read If the Buddha Dated by Charlotte Kasl, PhD. you could learn some very pertinent points, and if you are as much of a quality catch as you describe, you shouldn't sell yourself cheaply. . .


OK< so you followed your dating plan, and the date did not meet your expectations. . . do you expect ALL dates or ALL women to respond to your expectations IF you dollowed your plan? is this a disappointment because of an expectational issue? With the first quote's description, are you expecting anyone to turn you down?



Dating is not hard, learning to not be dependent upon others while alone might be hard, learning to compensate for extroversion at your age might be hard. Learning to increase coping skills for disappointments might be hard. . . learning to reduce expectations might be hard. . . learning to live as a single, unattached person might be hard.

notice the underlying theme of my list of difficulties. . . all those reside within yourself. . . a strong person works on their weaknesses to overcome or compensate for them so that they become more independent and self fulfilled. . .

i suggest that you may want to consider how to improve yourself FIRST, before thinking that a job, money and a good house are everything that a single woman SHOULD want. . .

wiftty

WhenIfindtheTime,


I hope my description of myself doesn't come across as arrogant, because I am not arrogant. But I do notice how lots of men treat their dates, spouses, partners and I just cannot believe it sometimes. I have seen women treated like dirt.

My problem wasn't with the rejection (not that any of us like rejection), my problem is how she rejected me. Last minute calls when we had plans to say that friends called and she wants to go out with them. If I make plans with someone, I stick to it. How she rejected me really made me feel rotten.

I also did not mean to imply that a good house, job and being fit is something that every women should want but they are good qualities. What is most important is how I treat a woman, or my friends, and children and even strangers.

Kieth, The canceling a date because something better comes up is just plain rude and you should not tolerate being treated like that. Often, we guys get Nice Guy Syndrom. One of the main effects of that disease is that we think if we are nice enough to people they will reward us by being nice to us, and havinga good relationship with us. If the person is a woman, we think we will be rewarded with romance. Of course, this is not true, but often if being nice isn't working, we end up trying even harder to be nice. That still doesn't work, of course.

The best thing to do with this woman is what you did. Don't call her back, and go find another woman who will treat you with respect. If she calls and wants to know why she hasn't heard from you, tell her the truth. Women respect a man who loves himself and doesn not take the dirt they dish out.

This website has some good stuff in it, though the message boards seemed to be populated by young guys who are rather immature. www.nomoremrniceguy.com

That stinks. No matter who does it.

A woman friend recently stood several of us up - because at the last minute her BF got tickets to something. So she backed out on us on the very day of our event.

Another woman "friend" did this to me for an out of town trip we were taking together - and had planned to share the driving and expenses. I wouldn't have planned the trip alone as I couldn't afford it. I had already paid money towards the trip that I could not get back. This came up a few days before we were supposed to leave. She had learned this guy she liked was also going, and she thought maybe she'd invite herself to go with him instead. I told her this was unacceptable to me - and believe it or not, she backed down. We went - but it was not fun, and we never did anything together again.

I have had girlfriends do this to me way back in high school. They seemed to think if they got an offer from a guy, they were justified in putting that ahead of any commitments to girl friends.

There are a number of people who think it's ok to take the best offer they've got when the time comes. I personally think the best offer is the first one - that's from the person who thought enough of you to ask early, who didn't wait to the last minute, and maybe you were their first choice.

Don't take it personally. There are just people out there who think this is acceptable behavior, and I'd bet money they'd do it to their family, or their girlfriends too.

I've already told my children that if you accept an invitation and a better offer comes along, too bad. You committed and you will honor your committment.