My WW lies to me and to our MC regarding contact with the OM - she claims there is "none", but I know for a fact that she talks/emails him regularly and also sees him secretly on occasion.

The problem is that I don't really want my WW to know how I know about the contact, because I don't want to give her ammo to say I am "invading her privacy" and also I don't want to alert her so that she simply gets better at covering her tracks.

On the other hand, if I just say "I don't believe her" during MC, then WW will just deny, deny, deny, and she will spin me as the irrational, paranoid husband who is hurting chances at reconciliation.

Any suggestions on what to do? I would love to simply lay out the hard evidence to prove that she's lying about NC, but then how will I know if she's telling me the truth in the future (assuming we would even have more MC after revealing this)?

What is more valuable...proving that she is lying about NC or keeping my sources hidden? Is there any way to do both?

Squiggle

Please do yourself and others a BIG FAVOR. Whatever money you are spending currently on "MC" with your ongoing cheating wife, please send to the http://www.wish.org/ . YOur money would be much better spent on this, then on some charade marriage counseling session that is absolutely wortless while your WW is still in contact and in the throes of the affair. I may not know much, but I know that. Do this one thing, and you can be at least a success here. PLEASE HEED THIS ADVICE.

Sourmale, MD

I was in the exact same boat.

If you know what they are up to, there is usually a way to 'catch' them and make it seem accidental without revealing your sources.

So far I have not had to resort to that. They eventually slip up and the truth comes out .

Think carefully about what you are going to do with the information. You don't want to back her into a corner...

Shul:

What do you mean by "backing her into a corner"? Just curious.

Thanks,

Sourmale

[quote]My WW lies to me and to our MC regarding contact with the OM - she claims there is "none", but I know for a fact that she talks/emails him regularly and also sees him secretly on occasion.

Are you really surprised??? The OM is not going to just sit back and be celibate while you and your wife continue this dance.

Squiggle, what you do is you simply tell her you know that she is still in contact. You don't have to "prove" what you both already know. You don't need to "ask" her, you just tell her. Tell her you know what she is doing but won't be giving up your sources. It's none of her damn business how you know.


Ammo? How in the world would that be AMMO? No one is entitled to the right to the privacy to destroy their spouse behind their back. On the other hand, you are entitled to snoop as long as you have reasonable suspicions. Just the fact that she is untrustworthy is reason enough.

You are very overdue for Plan B, my friend. She is getting her needs met in 2 places and is getting away with it because you are enabling her.

Lem - When I originally agreed to MC, there was NC (I think), but she has slipped back into contact. I'm just not sure if I should stop the MC already, since it "seemed" to be allowing us to communicate our feelings without fighting like we do when we have R talk on our own.

ML - Plan B vs. Divorce will be the options in a couple weeks -- I will be moving 1000 miles away, apparently without her unless some miracle happens. The screwed up thing is that she says she is still "considering" moving with me, but then is talking lovey-dovey with the OM behind my back. I don't know what she expects to happen when the time comes to move? And even worse, what does she expect to happen after I move if she is not with me?

Squiggle

Ok, Squid...fair enough........Now please tell me...WHAT THAT HAS GOTTEN YOU? Are you closer to your goal of TRUTHFUL and HONEST reconciliation with the MC then without the MC. What the "MC" has done is "bought" you time in conflict avoiding doing a hard core painful Plan B. It has also allowed your Wayward to enjoy continued feedings of a double icing delight.

If you are going to continue the "charade", at least take my advice on the Make-a-wish foundation. Donate dollar for dollar what you throw away in MC to the foundation. I will do the same, then we can both say we "helped" make someone's life better.

I wish I was skilled at helping you more here. I am a limited individual at this stuff. I can only say things "my way" and I know it may seem like I am just a roaring A-hole...but I am not. I just hate to see good people like yourself running on the hamster cage of "life".

BOL,

Sourmale

WS: you are invading my privacy!

Squiggle: no one is entitled to the "privacy" to carry on an affair, dear.

WS: are you saying you don't trust me??

BS: absolutely

Okay, so what do I do here.... she promised NC Thursday with the MC, but now I find out (not surprisingly) that she saw the OM Friday and Saturday (which I assume will continue through the weekend).

WW and I have been spending time together every day now, and the confusing thing is that we seem to get along well, even if there is still little show of affection on her part. However, it's pretty discouraging when she and I spend 4-5 nice hours together and then the first thing she does afterwards is call/see him.

I'm not sure how to continue Plan A and enforce my boundary of NC...especially in the limbo of this weekend before our next MC appointment Wednesday.

1) Do I act like nothing has happened and continue ignoring things this weekend, while seeing her every day?

2) Do I tell her I know she's still seeing him and that we need to talk about it in our next session, but then still spend time with her?

3) Do I tell her I know she's seeing him and that I don't want to see her until after we discuss it with the MC?

4) Do I tell her I won't go to any more MC appointments unless she can commit to NC?

I'm very conflicted on what to do here....I do enjoy spending time with her, and I thought it was making progress, but with her staying in contact, I don't know if I am doing more harm than good now.

squiggle

Squiggle, absolutely you should confront her about this. Why wouldn't you? I would tell her that you know of her contact and ask for an explanation. I wouldn't even bring up the MC. Personally, I think MC is a waste of time if the WS is still in the affair.

I would then strongly consider Plan B. Your W is basking in the glow of getting her needs met by TWO men right now and has NO motivation to give that up. She would be crazy to give up such a great set up. Plan B will apply a huge cost to her affair and may very well pull her off the fence. She won't understand that the OM can't meet all of her needs until you are no longer available to meet her needs.

If it were me, I wouldn't spend any more time with her. I would go into Plan B. I think the longer you enable her affair, the more respect she loses for you, Squiggle. And women do not love men they can run over. I am sorry to be so blunt, but that is the truth.

Squiggle:

IMO Melody Lane is right on About 2 separate points.

First,
MC is complete waste of time during an ONGOING A.
If your WS will Lie to YOU,
to their family, their friends, their coworkers, ect, ........why wouldn't they LIE to a complete stranger??

Indeed, My WW lied to Our MC, as well as HER counselor, her psychologist and her psychiatrist.

Far too many times,
They just USE the system (much like career criminals in the justice system do) and manipulate what is meant to Help the M (and warp it into ONLY Helping themselves).

Its just one more of the Games they play.
Heck, many see it as a challenge (of continuing the deceptive lifestyle they have built for themselves).

Sour male was correct in pointing out that seeking MC at this point is not only wasting your Money, your time & your energy ......but perhaps even more importantly your patience, your Love and eventually Even your "want" to save this M and relationship!

In addition,
By going with a current WW you risk souring (sorry LM) your own views on whether counseling can really Help or not?
Beware!

Next,
As Melody stated:
You may need to seriously consider a Plan B for yourself.

As you've learned the HARD Way, you Have NO (Zero) Control over her going NC with her OM.
NONE!!
Unfortunately, If they WANT contact ......they will "find" a way (no matter the safe guards put IN Place).
Sad but True.

However, you DO have complete Control over YOUR going NC with Her.

Sometimes in these situations, we have to go with what we ourselves have control over .....and Let the rest Play out.

Hope you've been doing a reasonable Plan A .....cause that will make your Plan B all the MORE effective.

Wishing you ONLY success in your efforts!

Oh yea,
Last thing:
(always keep your sources to yourself for as long a humanly possible).
As I told found a reason, if you KNOW something is a fact simply state it as such.

Your UNDER NO Obligation to provide your "proof".

Simply state calmly "as fact" ...."Honey, I KNOW you've been in contact with OM" or been with OM or whatever the situation is.

When she denies (as she will), simply let her Vent ....then when she's DONE , simply "restate" your Factual information.

When she trys to goad you into telling her HOW you know ...don't go there and don't play her game!

Say, " How I know isn't the issue ....You know and NOW You know that "I" Know ....and this behavior either continuing or Stopping is what we are discussing".

No amount of crying, yelling, Threatening or bargaining should have you give into her.
[And that includes YOUR OWN anger} ... cause many time our WS's bait us into "telling" on ourselves just cause they make us sooooooo angry (and as a result we want to prove our case).
Remember they KNOW ALL our Buttons!

The issue is HER Behavior ......never your sources.

Don't let her "cloud" the issue by getting YOU Off Point ...by getting into arguments that have NO Bearing on her being Honest and/or faithful!

Exposure is your tool. Use it wisely.

As for now, depending on how much you have to hang her with vs exposing your sources is what you have to weigh.

Even though it has been going good with you 2, let her know that she is the one responsible for rebulding your trust in her. Ask here where she feels she is on this. If she is dumb enough to lie, then let her know you are not exactly sure why but right now you do not feel as if she c/b trusted. Then watch where that thought takes her. One thing a WS or Xws can't be in 2 places at 1 time. Your accsation of distrust will send her head spinning. The truth may come out or she may dig herself into a deeper hole. Either way, she will give you some insight as to which direction you need to take.

JMHO,
L.

Squiggle,

Been following this. You are getting sage advice here, my friend. Not gonna waste your time parroting the others.

My prayers are with you.

NCWalker

Well, yesterday WW tried to pick a fight with me and cancel our 4th of July plans on the phone because she was "mad" at me for not calling her earlier in the day....I couldn't hold back anymore telling her that I knew she was still seeing OM every day, so I asked her if she had been spending time with him.

She said "no" - I asked her "Are you sure?"
She said "yes, i'm sure. I haven't seen him all weekend."
I asked again, "Are you sure?" Same answer.
I told her "I don't believe you."

She said, "Great. I guess all of my efforts make no difference. The MC told you that I promised not to seen him."

I said, "Yeah, the MC did tell me that. But I know for a fact that you've seen him every day this weekend."
She denied it again, so I mentioned a couple of the specifics I knew about when they were together...

Then she got quiet for about 15 seconds and said, "Forget it! I'm done." And she hung up on me.

So now what? I have no idea what to do. I haven't tried calling her since then, figuring it would only lead to a larger and messier argument. But I'm really at a loss for ideas on how I can ever think she's not lying to me.

Bluntly, you'll NEVER be able to trust her until she changes her ways and begins behaving in a trustworthy fashion. And she demonstrates that behavior over a period of time, in a manner which allows you to SEE that she's being honest with you in all things.

Of course she got angry and hung up on you...because there was no way that she was willing to face reality...that SHE was the one who was messing this up, not you.

I really don't have any sage advice in how to fix things at this point, just the thought that you'll HAVE to talk at some point in order for things to move forward.

Why would you want an idea about what is not true? You cannot trust her, she is untrustworthy.

Squiggle, the next time you talk to her, don't ASK HER if she has seen the OM. That is not the way to handle it. You TELL HER you know she has seen him. Otherwise you waste your time in a maze of denials. Cut through the crap and tell her YOU KNOW that she has been in touch with the OM. Don't ask, just TELL.

At this point, I would recommend that you stop calling her and make plans to go into Plan B. There is absolutely no use in dragging out Plan A to a point where it is actually destructive. I think you have reached that point.

Squiggle -

I just want to echo MelodyLane's advice. Go to Plan B now. That is, if you still want to save your M. It removes you from the chaos...you owe that much to yourself.

Do Plan B a bit before Plan D...it will help you look at things with proper perspective. It did me.


TM

I'll add my support for going Plan B.

While I think that Plan B is not a good choice for anyone, most of the time, it is the only choice available that has some hope of recovering the marriage.

As a side benefit, TM is right. With some time, it will give you a better prespective on the situation. And it WILL make you a stronger person.