So I thought I'd give this "dating" thing a try.

I'll grant it this: my experience has altered a number of my perspectives.

For one thing, I've learned to appreciate rejection. Out of all the e-mails I've sent on an online dating site, I've gotten only one rejection. It was a considerate and persuasive explanation of why the woman wasn't interested. However, everything else I've sent has garnered no response whatsoever. (Well, that's not counting the woman who e-mailed me first, but that little exchange ended up with her calling me "weird." Not a rejection exactly, but somehow I don't think that relationship is going to go anywhere...)

I've tried speed dating. Care to hazard a guess as to how many I matched with? That's right! Zip, zero, none, nada. As an experiment, I even ended up telling the computer I was interested in all of the women I talked with, which demonstrated conclusively that not a single one of them was interested in me. I'm going to give that approach another shot, I think, but if the results are any different, I suspect it will reveal more about the woman's level of desperation than her level of interest.

If I sound deflated, I'm not. My experience may demonstrate that my social skills are severely lacking, at least in the dating arena (not terribly surprising, given my lack of experience even before my marriage), but it's hard to say how much that actually has to do with it. See, the reality is, not one of these women has struck me as a viable candidate for a close or long-term relationship. Admittedly it's very difficult to get an accurate picture from an online profile or even a brief conversation, but...if that's the impression I've gotten, then it would be rather arrogant of me not to allow for the possibility that these women are all savvy enough to recognize that for themselves.

For me, my experience is mostly a confirmation of my original belief that a good match for me is very, very rare indeed. As a strategy for finding a partner, I am nearly convinced that my dating experiment is about as viable as playing the lottery is for a financial/retirement plan. It is said that "you have to play to win," but obviously playing is no guarantee of a win. The question becomes, is it a worthwhile investment?

I think I have a pretty good idea what I want in a life partner. I am willing to try remaining open to possibilities I haven't considered, but digging on a glacier to learn about finding gold strikes me as a futile endeavor. There are things I want to do with my life - things I believe God wants me to do with my life! - and if trying to date is going to be this much trouble and is going to distract me from my own purposes, I seriously question whether it's what I ought to be doing.

I have come to appreciate the advice given by both Harley and Cloud to date a lot of different people as a means of learning about yourself and your needs. However, that advice is of little value when you can't get a date in the first place. Admittedly, I've been e-mailing women who seem interesting, even if I doubt that there is any real potential there. Perhaps if I started e-mailing women who seem downright dull I would have better success, but then I have to stop and ask what the point is.

I am not willing to "settle for less." If that means I've set my sights unrealistically high, so be it: I'm willing to settle for nothing - or rather, for no one.

Oh, don't be too discouraged, there just might be someone out there.

Do you have unrealistically high expectations? It's well & good to want a stunning beauty with a perfect figure who is modest, loving, giving, unselfish, unpretentious, makes over $100,000 a year, no kids or baggage & loves you for your faults as well as your good qualities. BUT, high expectations are one thing, UNREALISTIC expectations are another.

I have a friend who has a profile on match who has listed that a man must make $100,000 or over, not be consumed by work or success & have pleanty of time for her. Well, my guess is if she wants that kind of money the man will have to be quite devoted to his work.

Maybe some willingness to be flexable would get you further...just a thought. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Maybe you're doing this dating thing because you really do want to be with someone you love & who loves you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The kind of woman I'm looking for exists. I'm convinced of this, because I know such women - and have been a valued friend of these women.

Of course I would like that. I'm just not convinced that going out and trying to make it happen is going to be anything other than a waste of time and money and energy. Waiting for a miracle doesn't seem the right approach either, but I'm not sure where in the middle the balance lies.

Who knows where we will find our next love.

Have the women you know that are like to woman you want help set you up. Casually, like at a get together, BBQ, etc. so there's no pressure. I don't know, I doubt I will simply bump into my next love on the street & recognize right away he's the one, but one can always hope.

Gnome <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />,

I'm sorry, but I have to smile at your post. Your cynically optimistic attitude somewhat reflects what I am feeling right now. I'm perfectly at ease being single....and while I would love to find that 'certain someone' again, I wonder if all the work thrown into online dating, 'dolling' myself up to attract someone, and working to show myself as 'available' is really worth deviating from making myself happy right now.

And although I have only marginally acted on it, I have to say that if I want to find love again in the future....well, by gosh, I'm going to have to WORK to get it. Why? Because right now, I'm a healthy single person. But throw me into a relationship....or even just dating....and I'm as inexperinced as they come! I need to date people in order to further my individual work. I can hold myself up now, but can I hold myself up in a relationship?

Until I 'practice,' it won't even matter if I find someone - because I don't think I'll be in a place where I'd even know that love was there! To me, love is about giving while maintaining enough to hold yourself up. Right now, I'm all about holding myself up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />! It's what I've had to learn to make it through the D and be happy.

But my next step is to practice giving an appropriate amount - and balancing that with keeping myself 'healthy.' As much as I'd like to, I can't do that alone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.

So is the 'work,' 'investment,' and 'effort' worth it? Well, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 'yup.' Cause if I don't then I'll never know whether it was because opportunity never presented itself to me....or if I never presented myself to opportunity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Aw heck. I must be in an 'up' mood. he he

Well said L.I.T.!

Who said the work of dating would be all fun & games. May we all come away with some good stories.

Hey Gnome:

Male here a few years older than you. (Only a few!!!) I will leave the emotional thoughts and opinions to the 'wiser-gender' for obvious reasons - but would like to offer this:

[FR-Disclaimer]: My default position is to extreme honesty. I have no intent to offend and will do my best not to - so please bear with me.

You are an articulate and witty guy with an obscure sense of humor. Most women I know look for guys with your traits. (Input ladies please!!!)

However; I sense desparation in your message. (No stones please!) Which is perfectly understandable for a man who was betrayed after 10 years of marriage, divorced and has had no contact from xw since. That scenario would have an affect on all of us, and smarter folks than I would have to help you with that. But I do sense a little bit of despair.

So, using my deductive reasoning skills (wxw hated those skills) my suggestion is - to lighten up a little. Have a little fun, w/o worry of how it's received. Be yourself.

Example: I have a friend who went on match.com and like you, was largely unsuccessful for the 1st month or so. He grumbled quite a bit saying; "internet women are all the same, cyber dating sux, people lie on their descriptions" - and so on. So I thought about his dilemma and it just didn't make sense to me because he's a stand-up guy, funny, smart, etc. I said; "Let me read your description", and he kind of wavered. I told him that I didn't want to date him - I wanted to help him. So after a couple of beers, he showed his description to me. I read this debacle, looked at him and asked: "Dude - who are you talking about here? This ain't you!" So after he got over me saying this, he asked what I meant. I said: "This is not you, you're trying to sound sophisticated - and you're not! You're a great guy who knows how to have fun - but sophisticated, you're not!" He mumbled a bunch of junk about how he read other descriptions and this is how all of them talk. I said: "EXACTLY!!!

So I made a bet with him. (It's a guy-thing ladies!) I said: "Here is what I want you to do. Get on MS Word and type a list of 5 activites that you like to do, 5 traits that you've been told are 'odd' about you, 2 of your 'life-dreams' and what one thing you would do if you could travel in time. And by the way - you only have 5-minutes to do this." So he started banging on the keys, slowly at first, but within a minute or two had those keys smokin! And for 5-minutes - he wrote about those things I asked him about and more. Afterwards I read it. And it was him to a "T". It was not sophisticated or particularly "smooth", but it reeked of honesty, wit, fun and faith. So my bet was that if he posted it, he would have 5 emails within the 1st week. (He said this would be the easiest free steak dinner he's ever won.) WRONG! 22 emails later, I was chomping on a juicy sirloin and he was reading me the emails. (Some were from ladies who shunned him before.) Note: This is a true story!

So I have to ask you Gnome; are you being "yourself" when describing your life, desires and so on with these women? Because the guy I'm reading about above should be getting plenty of responses.

Please give this a thought. Hope I didn't offend. And I hope some of the ladies will add input.

Good Luck Gnome!

FR <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hey - Thanks FR! You've helped me solve the mystery of what to put in those "description" boxes!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I've been having a little trouble with that!

Sorry Gnome, forgot to answer your question.



Because you still care brother! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FR

Fr, you are absolutley right about the descriptions men put about themselves. It's like they've gone to some suggestion list & they fit these into "their own words". For example, "I'm as comfortable in jeans as I am in a tux.", "I know how to treat a lady.", .."sit in front of a cozy fire...", "...walk on the beach..." etc.. after a while they all sound the same.

Absolutely be yourself , use your own words. The one man I found myself drawn to said he didn't have a job at the moment & this was one of my must haves, but all his other words made me wonder about him. He sounded like he was talking about himself, a real person, not a list of suggestions to "catch the ladies eyes."

FR,
<clap> <clap> <clap>

Faith1

As one of the unofficial poster children of online dating here as of late, I must agree with what's been said.

First, NO desparation in your profile, your emails back to women, any phone calls, etc. One of the reasons (there were more) that I decided the guy I met on Sunday was a no-go (and he does have a good personality) is that I sensed he was "wife hunting" and it almost gave me a creepy feeling, because I felt like after this one meeting he wanted me to think we were an item...he was so set on finding all the things about us that made us so compatible.

Second, I think because many men don't read women's profiles all that closely at first (they read the highlights and check out the photo and go from there), they tend to not put thought into their own. GNP and any guy out here reading this, we women DO read those profiles.

And third, something that hasn't yet been mentioned but has been an issue for me: Photos. At least to me, I will generally not respond back to someone who hasn't posted a photo, because I just figure they are hiding something. And second, post a SMILING photo...not something that looks like it's from your driver's license. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I am stunned at the number of men who have only one photo posted, and it's one of them staring all grumpy-looking and sober straight into the camera.

That's my two cents!

LL

No need to apologize, L.I.T. I like that description: "cynically optimistic." I'm really not that discouraged; I'm more amused and frustrated.

Yeah, I think it's really about finding the right balance point. I intend to be more pro-active about approaching women I already know. I'm just pretty doubtful right now that the online scene is right for me.

Fishracer, it is extremely difficult to offend me. I very much appreciate your effort to help, and I can't even imagine what could be considered offensive in your post.

I know a lot of women who would not hesitate to say that I would make a great husband. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> For someone else. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Most women I know say they look for guys with my traits, but I wonder how honest they are being with themselves. No offense intended to LL, who was merely being self-observant and honest, but when an otherwise excellent set of characteristics can get overlooked for want of a set of "relatively straight teeth" (and in case anyone's wondering, mine are reasonably straight), it seems clear that most of us are deluding ourselves by thinking that what our values say we should want is what we are really looking for.

I do not exempt myself from this charge. When going through profiles, you can be sure that I'm clicking on the photos that catch my eye and skipping over the ones that...er...don't. Yeah, I've gone back and looked at most of those others later when they fit my search criteria, but I cannot deny that when I'm looking at a picture of a really cute or stunning woman I'm hoping that I can find something in her profile which will make me think there's a match, whereas when I'm looking at a picture of a...um...pulchritudinally challenged woman, I'm hoping that I won't find anything which will make me believe there could be a match.

Yes, there's a bit of desperation and a bit of despair. Although, this has less to do with my divorce trauma than with my need to find a release from my fixation on the wonderful lady who seems to think so highly of me except for the lack of chemistry. We are so obviously right for each other that I cannot escape the suspicion that - if she feels nothing - then the problem is inherent within me. See, she's apparently not the only one: I have a few other unattached women friends whom I find attractive (though I don't believe any are an appropriate match), but who show every evidence of perceiving me solely in a brotherly light. Conclusion: like helium and neon, I may be admirable and useful, but I am chemically inert. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

My desperation is considerably amplified by the fact that I am questioning other very significant aspects of my life: pursuits where I am having limited success - but not so limited that I can conclude I would be better off just dropping them and moving on to something else (something more conventional, where I do not have to carve my own road).

In short, I am in the middle of an identity crisis: at what point do I need to accept that my self-image and my true potential are so far apart that I am blinded to reality? (Did you ever see the movie "Waiting for Guffman"?) When does the dogged pursuit of a dream become a foolish chasing after a fantasy?

The problem is, this is pretty much how I've been behaving, before I decided I'd try the dating thing. And we see where it's gotten me: I do the "friend" thing really well.

Here's what a (female) friend had to say after reading my profile: "I thought your write up about yourself was very accurate! Good job with the presenting yourself in an honest light."

Oh, and in response to LL, there is definitely no desperation evident in my profile. Furthermore, I do have a photo up, I am smiling, and if I do say so myself, I'm not all that bad looking. Perhaps just slightly better looking than Brad Pitt, but not by much.

Yes, but...I'm not sure I want to.

Okay, about that photo thing...

Yes, I admit I do pass over the really freaky ones (there's one guy who keeps viewing my profile, who's picture is a profile shot of him with his eyes all big like he's surprised and his tongue sticking about 3" out of his mouth).

But it's not so much about finding the best looking guys (because you can see that dating the one "looker" that I've seen a few times...who, by the way, found me--not the other way around...the looks are actually complicating things for me.)

It's just that, at least for me, if a guy puts up a picture, I see him as honest enough to put himself out there. I will come nearer reading and maybe responding to a profile of someone I don't see as immediately attractive, if his picture is there, than responding to any profile from someone with no picture.

Hang in there. I may have had some dates and some responses, but it's not like I've actually found someone who meets my criteria either.

LL

I, too, want a photo posted. It's not that I want "Mr. Handsome" because, frankly, I often don't trust exceptionally handsome men. (I know, I know...my sterotype!) But, I do want someone that I am attracted to, physical appearance being a part of that. I don't care if anyone else finds them attractive.

I've had one instance where a man contacted me expressing an interest. He had no photo posted. I responded as there were some things of common interest. Well, he sent a photo to me after our first e-mail exchange. It wasn't that he didn't have a photo. I wasn't physically attracted to him at all. I didn't know quite how to handle it without being insulting or rude. Also, I had one man who had a photo of himself taken in 1987 that he had posted! He didn't tell me this until we had corresponded for quite some time. At that point, regardless of his current appearance, I felt lied to. Another man I overlooked several times while going through profiles, I decided to take a second look at due to common interests. His appearance for me was rather "neutral". He was 5'5" which made him exactly my height. I prefer someone to be at least one inch taller! But, this guy turned out to be one of the most attractive, charasmatic, charming, sexy man I have ever met! (Unfortunately he decided that he was too busy working on finishing his Ph.D, buying a new house, and making significant changes at his job to pursue a long term relationship!)

I never know how to respond to an "I'm Interested". Sometimes depending on the site you can't respond unless you're a paid member. But, the individual may not realize that. A few other times that I have responded with a very brief explanation, thanking them for their interest, but that I wasn't interested....I have had them contact me back and argue or debate about my "reason" for not being interested! For example, one man contacted me who had a marital status of "separated". I won't get involved with someone in this status. I thanked him for his interest, letting him know that I didn't choose to have contact with individuals in a "separated" status. He wrote back twice trying to "reassure me" that there was no way he'd get back with his wife...didn't I think I was being a bit closed minded, etc. Another man said that I was one of the most judgmental rude people he had ever met and who did I think I was to reject him, etc. I had just written a very brief e-mail thanking him for his interest but letting him know that I didn't feel we'd be a good match! So, I don't mean to be rude in not responding, but I sure as heck don't want to be confronted or questioned!

Where's the internet dating etiquette book?!

It's not that I'm "all that" as a desireable dating partner. I'm female, 50 and overweight. But, I've also learned that I don't have to grovel and accept "whomever" just because someone expresses an interest in me. At the same time, I'm very sensitive to any sense of "rejection"...both on the sending and receving end of things. Yikes!

Internet dating has it's issues. But, I work in a female dominated profession (social work), so there aren't alot of available men around. I don't go to bars. I don't belong to a church. Etc, etc. So, I make the best of a challenging adventure called "internet dating". And I thought being a teen in the dating world was hard!!

GDP,

Good to see you!

I don't venture over here in this forum very often. Give me a couple of months and I might.

I just want to tell you about my friend's house. It was a relatively small house on a 2 acre wooded lot in a nice neighborhood where almost all houses were larger - and almost all were on smaller lots. But, it also had a very nice glass and brick greenhouse and an indoor heated lap pool (60x8 feet). It sat on the market for over a year until they sacrificed it for 2/3 of it's real value.

The problem was that they had to wait for a buyer that loved to swim year-round, loved to garden, liked a secluded homesite (you could not see their house from the street) - and didn't need, nor want a huge house - and could afford this place. If they had left it on the market for 2 or 3 years they might have found that buyer.

So, you are waiting. That's fine.

But you've still got to go out there and look for buyers. You've still got to advertise, because when that one comes along that wants pool, greenhouse, seclusion, not a huge house - you want to make sure they know you've got one.

-AD

But...

GDP,

Please indulge me a bit. I have no right to tell you what you "have to do". So, please just take it as my way of making a recommendation. OK?

Before you go find PW2 (perfect woman #2), you are going to have to deal with this "perfect" woman (PW1). If you want a romantic partner, you are going to have to take a sequence of actions which will result in you no longer being her friend. In short, in place of your well rehearsed, scripted approach (which is part of who you are) - for this special effort, you are going to have to be raw, immediate, and in-the-moment. You must leave no doubt of your intentions and leave no room for "just friends" anymore. If she rejects this approach, she will shun you - and no longer be your friend. You have to risk that. Don't try to figure it all out in advance. RESIST THAT AT ALL COSTS. RAW, barehearted truth, is what you want. Just go to her. Find her. Take some roses if you want. Tell her all that you think and feel about her - that she is the perfect woman - that you love her - that you want to spend your life with her! She is not a stranger. You do not have to "get to know her". So, ask her straight out - to marry you. (You can always back out later if you find out she's not so pefect after all. That's what engagements are for.) NO SCRIPT!

AD has spoken. LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

May the force, good luck, and most of all God's blessing be with you.

Ladies, am I right?

-AD

landica,

Oh yes, the outright proposal is certainly pushing it a bit. LOL

My point, however, is that the missing spark has to come from him. I suspect that he is "too much a gentleman". There has to be something he does or says to her that he wouldn't do or say to his grandma. I'm a very circumspect guy - and never indulge in ribald jokes. Nor do I complement women's appearance (except for my wife, old ladies and children). Sparks are not in my lexicon either. If GDP wants sparks, he has to strike the flint against the rock.

A woman wants to be wanted - as a woman - and not only as a friend. I imagine that there are many cases where both man and woman are "too well bred" to do or say anything remotely "sparkish". Something has to give.

GDP,

Have you found a lack of spark in spite of actively trying for one, or are you waiting, like a gentleman, for PW1 to do it? In the beginning of your relationship with your XW, did she take the initiative? I was married at 40. I can honestly say, that in the development of my relationship with my wife, she was the one taking the initiative. I never, for example, would have kissed her the first time (after spending a lot of time with her for 7 months), if she had not said "I could just kiss you." Pretty obvious cue, eh? Now if I had been sparking all those years, I would not have married so late in life.

The lowdown on this is that, yes, this is about s*x. We are nice guys, we don't even hint at that in polite company. Right? But, something about your behaviour has to indicate, that, yes, you do have some interest in that - eventually. Sorry, it took me almost forever to figure this out myself - and I'm not sure I really have. Since I didn't figure it out for a long time, I have no practice in it, and will probably either over or under-do it when the occasion arises. Don't get me wrong. I believe in "saving it for marriage". But, you can (and must) refer to it in some way before marriage. Give a hint at least.

Ladies,

Help us out here. What kind of cues are appreciated? Complements? "You're looking hot today!" (too much?) Suggestive talk. "If I were your husband, we would be late for work this morning." (way too much?) I don't know, but I know there's got to be something of this sort - some hint. Maybe it's just a lingering eye that is required - up and down sort of look. Am I wrong in this, ladies?

Conclusion:
You have to take action to push the relationship accross some line. When you do that, you probably will lose PW1 as a friend. She will either begin a different kind of relationship with you, or she will distance herself. And, if you are going to find PW2, you've got to do that - to put PW1 out of your mind, heart and, yes, life.

If you want to have a girlfriend, you probably can't have a girl friend.

-AD

Gnome,

Which dating sites have you posted on?

Have you posted on e-harmony? If not, why not give it a whirl too?

I have a good friend of mine who posted there, she met quite a few different men some were okay matches but still not what she was 'really' looking for, then she got that one response that just clicked, and well, they are getting married later this month.

One of her criteria was that he be strong in his own faith, and actively serving God. She knew from talking with most of the men she e-mailed they weren't actively serving God.

Some put in their profiles they are "Christians" and go to church, but that's all they did was go to church, and for most of them it was "sporatic" attendance. She wanted someone who went every Sunday or most every Sunday as she understands things can come up that you just can't make it.
(she has a daughter who had a double lung transplant, and is need of another) and she has a son who has a similiar illness but isn't as 'sick' as her daughter, so she also wanted a man who could support her emotionally during those times. At this point her daughter is living in the Childrens hospital, and yet, she has two other children at home to take care of, and her faith is pretty amazing and she wanted to meet someone who is at least where she is in her strength of faith.

This man posted in his profile things he has been through in his life, and how God has used those things to grow him in his faith. In the past two and half years they have dated, he has actively shown that faith and has drawn on it to offer the support she's needed.

So if that is something your looking for in an eventual life partner, if you haven't put that information out there, do so, because a lot of Christian women want a man who is strong and active in their faith, someone they don't feel like they are 'dragging' to Church.

And from everything I've heard (as I didn't do the online dating) from friends, they have all said the same thing, most of these men "say" they are Christians and that they "want" to meet a Christian woman, but they have no fruit of the spirit showing their lives.