GDP,

You're a talented writer, man!

Some lucky girl.... is going to find you sooner or later.

I think I'd better go back over to the GQII board - since I'm still married.

Really I can't advise you, but thinking about your situation helps me think about issues I'll run into down the road a bit.

Thanks,

-AD

Thanks, AD. The story was intended to be existential, and thus it doesn't matter where it goes next. It's about owning one's decisions and values. Who is to say that the bird and the feather and what he does with it should be less important to the gnome than finding a bird that would appreciate what he has to offer? Only the gnome himself has the right to make that determination.

I am trying to count the cost of my choices - including the opportunity cost. Admittedly it is not possible to make this assessment with any precision, but so far my investigation of the dating world, however brief and shallow, is making me much more comfortable with the idea of spending the rest of my life alone.

I'm leaning toward just seeing what I can do with my feather. Hunting is for the birds.

Wow. Just...wow.

Oh My Heavens! I just could NOT resist replying on this thread, try as I might. Dear little gnome, you and AD crack me up, mainly because I read your thoroughly Thinker (T) musings from my little Feeler (F) vantage point and giggle. Okay...where to begin.

As you know, I do know you about as well as any friend here on MB could despite your layers and layers of veils, and I also know your little bird and that whole dynamic. Here's my 2 cents on that: I think AD may have a point that you can't hunt birds when you have a bunch of bird feathers in your hand. The other birds who are of the caliber bird that you want to catch will see the other bird's feathers and say, "he already has a bird" and not want to get tangled up in all that. Plus, my guess is things with your little bird are not really "concluded" in your heart, and in order for you to offer yourself fully to another lovely bird, you can not have a little piece of a different bird in your heart. So work on letting go of your dear, lovely bird so you are fully available (heart and soul) to the bird that I believe God has in store for you.

Next, this whole internet dating, and dating thing. Hmmm...as you know, I did date a bit before I met my current imperfect-but-perfect-for-me person, and like you I found it a bit frustrating. When I went to those speed dating things, I usually had one mutual person, but it wasn't someone who completely sparked my interest on many levels. Just for the "practice" of it, I did go out on dates with the mutual interest fellas, and practice talking to them and asking/answering questions, and practice using some of the qualities that I have that are my better qualities. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

When I went on eharmony, the matches were very good quality, but like you I had enough distance restrictions that I didn't get a "ton" of matches (like 10 per month)...plus, *I* couldn't go through and pick matches, they did it for me! On eharmony, my experience was that I did some extensive emailing with a few fellas who were very much like me and seemed very interesting/interested...but one ended up to still be living with/entangled with his exW, and the other suddenly ended things with me to pursue something with another lady.


When I went on other dating sites (like Match.com or True.com) I could look for people and see some photos to have that initial degree of some attraction, but once again...the men that I met from those sites were frankly disappointing. Once again, I did go out on a few dates with fellas from these sites, and I did practice my skills, but they just weren't the caliber of men I was interested in...and most expected sexual intercourse on the very first date! OY!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I don't believe I had unrealistic expectations, but I did have very specific things that I wanted. I wanted to find someone whom I found reasonably attractive, and no I don't mean a model--I mean a configuration that pleased me and that I found handsome. I wanted someone who could keep up with me intellectually and maybe even challenge me! That's a high mark!! I wanted someone who had a personal relationship with God and who wanted that as an aspect in our relationship. I wanted someone who had a moral compass! I wanted someone who was relatively emotionally and mentally healthy (hey we all have issues that we work on, but like someone who had the tools to do the work and someone who took personal responsibility for their choices). I wanted someone whose sense of humor I found enjoyable...someone I could laugh with and who could laugh with me (at everything from Monty Python to Dennis Miller to Blue Collar comedy). See?? I had a fairly clear idea of what I was looking for, and the fellas from the internet sites were NOT that kind of man!

My next thought was to consider the gym, or a bar that catered to an older crowd (my age)--but then I thought "Do I want to have a life with someone I meet at a bar?" Not really. My next thought was to just continue being myself and ask out people who I ran into in the normal course of my life and who were either friends or mildly interested/interesting, etc. This went okay and was a lot better option for me because I already knew them a little and we already had some things in common. This dating lead to several people I would consider as friends-dear acquaintances now.

In the end, I met my current person in the least likely place...by accident. I think I literally tripped on him, and when I apologized we got to talking and then I asked him his name. It was an unusual name so I asked him if it had a meaning and the rest, as they say, is history. I can say this...it may seems frustrating to you right now, and it may seem that perhaps your standards are unrealistic or your expectations are impossible, but they're not, GDP. I used to dream of the way I thought a relationship could be, and that is very, VERY close to how this relationship IS. I did find someone who has the qualities I wanted, AND who looks at me and sees the qualities he wanted.

Sooooo...keep trying. Be patient but keep at it at your own speed. Let your little bird go so you can be available for the lovely bird who is coming. And don't compromise--what you are looking for is reasonable and you will find her. Trust me--after all these years I know you and you do have qualities and characteristics that the right woman will find attractive. Like who else could discuss Quantum Physics?

((GCP)) in a very stiff and uncomfortable way.




FNCJ

Okay, I sort of missed the recent turns in this story, and I admit I'm sort of lost on the bird/feather story (read it quickly). And again, you or anyone who is reading my little online dating saga with its ups and downs and my many mistakes knows that I'm not the best one to offer advice.

All all I know is that, while I found life outside a relationship to be very peaceful (and being able to do what I want, when I want, and not answering to anyone definitely has its merits!), I really do still miss the things that only a relationship can provide. And because of that, I'm going to, at least for a while longer, continue to try this dating thing out.

I know most of my opportunities for meeting someone have come because I've communicated with people who don't meet some of the criteria I set initially. And I've tweaked it a time or two already, during my brief stint so far on the internet site. If this one doesn't work, or if I decide I'm ready to get more serious, I will definitely consider eharmony (even though I've also heard some of the matching is not the best, or that they match a person with someone so similar that there is nothing to make the relationship exciting). I know of several people who met on eharmony, know one guy who is currently in a long-term relationship and another that just married his match. So I'm willing to give it a try.

My question to you is, why are you not as willing to stick with it. Why give up so easily? Yes, it's work--it's not just a walk in the park. It's scary to send an email to someone, not knowing if they'll respond back. It's more scary to meet them. Meeting someone who you know instantly you are not right for is awkward at best. And getting rejected stinks. I've only been at this for a month, but I'm still hanging because I believe the benefits have the potential to outweigh these difficulties. Why not stick with it a while longer, or try more than one service? (I know, you gave a reason, but just for 3 months maybe?)

And finally, I am concerned that the ladyfriend of yours has so clouded your mind that you can't accept anything other than her or someone just like her. You love something that you can't have (at least not right now anyway), and all your energy you should be focusing on ways to get yourself noticed by other women is spent dwelling on her.

I guess my question is this: Are you really happy just living this way, just dreaming about how something could be with her? My guess is "no", or you wouldn't have joined the dating service in the first place. Do you still want to be in this same place 5 years from now, thinking "What if I would have at least tried dating...where might I have been by now?"

So don't give up yet. I think it's great to have your women friends read your profile to make sure it's you, but maybe have some guy friends read it, too.

And even conservative, no-sex-before-marriage me agrees with those who have said you have to create some spark--let the woman know you're interested--by a guy. Eye contact is good. Given the right opportunity, just a brush of an arm against the other person or standing or sitting close, with a smile, works. Confidence is good. I like a guy who isn't afraid to show emotion, but I also like a guy who is confident about his masculinity and shows it--. I think I speak for many women when I say one of the things we are looking for is a man who makes us feel wanted, and safe and protected.

LL

GDP--

Have you gone on a trip? Did you forget your own thread? Helloooooo... (knocking on monitor)... anyone there??

((GDP))



FNCJ

Ah, CJ, I've missed you!

I haven't forgotten my thread, and I appreciate the latest responses, but I haven't had a chance to compose my own response. In fact, I am going on a trip (just for the weekend), and I've been scrambling to get ready.

I may be able to post a response before I leave, but I'm running out of time...

Speaking as one who DID go on a long trip, I understand. Just reply when you get back, so you can concentrate on your travels and maybe having some fun.

Safe journeys!



FNCJ

Hey GDP,

I think the meat of the matter that Landica was trying to get a cross is this (Landica forgive me if I am off the mark)

She has made it clear she has no romantic interest.

You however are romantically interested.

Your fixation on PW #1 is going to prevent you from finding another.

PW#1 is feeding your fantasy(on purpose or not), and you are eating it up.

It's very difficult to be "friends" with someone when you feel the way you do and she does not.

JMHO GDP...

Do friends become lovers? Absolutely! GDP that line usually gets crossed long before now.

Tuck those good feelings away and move along my friend. What if's and woulda, coulda, shoulda's are not where you need to be in your growth. Today is the day, not yesterday, not tomorrow.

I know once I started living today, my life came back, my personality and happiness returned, any remorse, doubts, and insecurities disappeared.

Living "today" gave "me" back to "me".

Good Luck GDP, you are a good guy and deserve more than "I hope so someday"

RM

AD,

In reading your post here, I have to say it's not always true that the line from friendship to lover gets crossed earlier than a year or two and even then, if it does that doesn't mean things will work as lovers. Sometimes you really are better off as friends and being able to accept those boundaries on the friendship is a great thing, because you can't always go back to being 'just' friends.

There is a man I have known since Jr. High, all through high school he asked me out and I continually told him I didn't want to ruin our friendship by dating. Not that, I didn't find him attractive, and not that there wasn't a spark, but I really cherished our friendship. I had a great friendship
with his parents, moreso his mom, than his dad, because his dad kept trying to push a deeper relationship, while his mother respected the boundaries I'd placed.

Fast forward 7 years post graduation, we both planned our leave for the same time. At that point we had both been married and divorced. And began asking myself why I never wanted to cross that line, what made our relationship different than the other men I dated and I couldn't figure it out. But, we crossed that line and things changed, not just for me, but for him as well and not for the good. And we both agreed that was not a good place for either one of us. But now there was an uncomfortableness for both of us, it's like something broke that could never be fixed. And still all these years later, I miss our friendship.

I miss being able to pick up the phone and call just to talk and see how things are going in his life. Why? Because now, it would make our spouses wonder whats going on why are you calling an old lover to talk to them? Where as in our first marriages we could do that and our spouses knew we were just really close friends from school, there was no underlying question in their mind that it was more than just old friends talking. And I really miss that.

So yes, sometimes, friendships no matter what the underlying feelings might be, are better left as friendships.

GDP, I have a slightly different opinion. Maybe we'd all be better off if we presented all our problems to a group of supportive but objective observers, and then followed their advice. But, who's life would we be living then? Part of my own recovery is learning to live my own life, not just reacting to the behavior and opinions of others. Since I've always thought of myself as independent (read "stubborn"), I didn't realize how little I knew about what I really want/need. Sometimes all the excellent advice just adds to my confusion, guilt, and self-doubt. What I need most is respectful support while I find my own way through my dilemmas. It's helping me learn to trust myself enough to accept the hand of my Higher Power leading me down my own path, wherever that path may lead.

I tried to save my marriage way past the time recommended by anyone, especially in the face of alcoholism/addiction, verbal abuse, and on-going A. And I finally got to the point where I had had enough. I have no regrets anymore. "What if's" can work both ways. If you move on too soon, for you, the what if's can haunt you with what coulda/shoulda/woulda been.

The little gnome will hold on to his beautiful feather until he's ready to let it go. Someone in my Al-Anon meeting used another metaphor about how a father only hands his 5 year old the money to buy the treat when they get to the store so he/she doesn't inadvertently lose it. God doesn't tell us what's coming down the road - thank goodness for that - but provides what we need when we're ready to receive it. CJ's story is a perfect example. She did all the footwork, but then literally tripped over her current perfect-for-her partner because she was ready.

Right now, the little gnome is happy with the feather and the chance that the beautiful bird will land on the window sill again. That's where the gnome is today. As you said, the story isn't finished.

TR..I miss being able to pick up the phone and call just to talk and see how things are going in his life. Why? Because now, it would make our spouses wonder whats going on why are you calling an old lover to talk to them? Where as in our first marriages we could do that and our spouses knew we were just really close friends from school, there was no underlying question in their mind that it was more than just old friends talking.

K..I don't beleive that for a second (1st marriage), such is true only when someone suppresses deep primal feelings to appear "trusting" and/or avoid conflict...or is as dumb as a rock (meaning naive and/or gullible..neither being good traits). We are all deeply programmed to respond negatively to our spouse maintaining a relationship with an opposite gender individual. Your spouses may have allowed it, but required to be radically honest, they would have admitted it bothered them at some level, it had to, it is a recognizable relationship risk factor, genetically bred into all of us....for obvious reasons.

Knight...I think it is unwise to have any opposite gender friend (unless too old/young, kin, or some other clearly recognizeable impediment to any possiblility of becoming lovers). As you know relationships ignited with past "friends" is not uncommon, so there is always risk in maintaining such a friend when married, a risk unreasonable to subject the marriage too.

I also see no difference whatsoever between "friends" and "lover" it is all the same, just a matter of degree, so why would we vest emotional resources in anyone other than our spouse? Or if we recognize that, and vest such little time or resources in a "friend", then is it really a friendship? Is not being nurtured or vested in...so again, why do it? What you miss is the feelings experienced with this person when you were single, such feelings have no place in a marriage, as you realize.

I don't think you "lost" a friend by becoming romantically involved with him, you simply found the limits of your interest in the person (and he you). Had the friendship been worthwhile, you would have become best friends and married. It is not possible to have more than a very limited amount of significant human relationships in life. A spouse, children, parents, siblings, a best same gender friend, and that is it, there is simply not enough HOURS for more (or you rob hours from your primary relationships)...the rest are mere acquantainces, whether co-workers, neighbors, school chums, childhood buddies, or someone we interesected with at some point in our lives. If we try to maintain all these relationships we shortchange our primary relationships as well as our personal growth (skills, interests, casuses, spiritual, etc.).

We all wish those we had a past and plesant experience with well, and have some curiosity about their lives...but that is generally easily satisfied with the occassional Christmas card, chance meeting, feedback from mutual friends/family/etc. IMO it is self-destructive (in a benign way perhaps) to lament over past relationships of any kind, friends, army buddies, lovers, almost lovers, whatever...it is a look backward, and not forward, it is the first step (often) down slippery slopes. Even here, your (albeit brief) focus on some past guy and laments about not being able to pickup the phone and talk says something not in your best interest (don't know what, just observing the melancholy tone).

Most of us will meet hundreds of people in our lives, many will be interesting and will draw us, and we will "share" a time with them, is the nature of being hunman. But we only have the time/emotional resources to be "friends" with a few of them, and we marry the best opposite gender one. IMO we should view these friendship "events" as just that, something good that happened, had it's season, and ended, never to be pursued again (as we put ourt limited resources to better use). I think finding out this man was not maritable was the best outcome from you, it ended what would have become (as it is for GDP) a significant impediment to finding a best friend and marrying them.

There is this notion (and I have been on both sides of it, until my understanding of relationships finally clarified the issue), it is possible to have an opposite gender best friend...it is not possible, unless you are single. The reason (in hindsite) is simple, you marry your best friend. Because we are human, there will always be a sexual tension between male and female "friends", there is no room in a marriage for that temptation no matter how unlikely we "think" it is. Further, there is no difference between a sexual and an emotional relationship (from a fidelity standpoint), few of us (I know I wouldn't agree), will be comfortable with a spouse vesting emotional resources in an opposite gender friend, even if we were absolutely certain no sexual risk involved.

Lest anyone argue I am saying no interactions with opposite gender, I am not, that would be silly. Sure one can have many interactions with interesting people (I won't bother with illustrations), in socially acceptable ways, and we might characterize these as "friends" (even though they are not, they are acquaintainces and not important to us personally. The issue is when the interactions become personal, when we share about our feelings, our personal details, when we "support" the other (this is what being friends means, you vest resources, and work at maintaining emotional contact/connections), when we seek out someone cause they make us "feel" good.

We all have a choice to make (well several, but this is one) when we choose how to live. If we "choose" single, that is a path that includes the option of one or more opposite gender friends...it we choose married, we marry our best opposite gender friend, and give up the rest...pretty simple, and if we don't the marriage will be less than it's potential. If one chooses a life of marriage, then one should take every friendship as far as it can go, so you have no lingering doubts or regrets later...you did exactly what you should have thorned rose, but then you do seem to have good instincts, so not surprising.

btw, lovers vs friendship thing and "ruining" it....nah, that dog don't hunt.

Lots of lovers end up good friends, heck is not uncommon that divorced people end up much better friends than they were lovers. What taking freindship to romance does is simply reveal the full extent possible for that relationship. If they become best friends, they marry, if not...something was missing, and they will then naturally drift away and seek that elsewhere. Such is life, and like most things in life, if we fail to discern the underlying principles and act accordingly we suffer the consequences. In the case of unrequited love (or meeting the needs of someone who will never marry us) we clearly waste resources we should be expending finding a best freind...this can be bittersweet, true, but such is life if you want to be married.

The best possilbe opposite "friendship" strategy is to progress until you reach the limit, or marry.... Yes, you may encounter someone who becomes a good friend for a time..and while you are both single, that can work a bit...but as one (or both) become involved in another "effort" they will (as they must) put the previous relationship away, with fond memories, and maybe an occasional satisfying of curiosity, but they must part, for both their well-being.

The confusion comes because these friendships develop while both single, and feel very good, and often are very good...but for some reason or another do not lead to marriage. Of course we want to "keep" them, and we can for a time, but unless both are choosing to remain single, they have no real future. Is part of the downside of dating, is painful to make a good friend, and realize it will only have a season. The good news though, is both parties should have "learned" more about what kind of relationship they seek, what didn't work, and adjust accordingly...so in a sense the two were good for each other, and that is ok.

Good point LetsTry, we all have to make our OWN decisions...I think the value of group think is to be accountable. None of us is fully qualified to be objective about ourself...so if enough people suggest (even though in the give and take it comes across as "tell") a view of our actions/feelings/choices we would do well to incorporate that in our decisions. If this weren't true, we have no need for therapists, we just do whatever we feel like. But WHEN to act against what we feel we want, because of advice...that is up to each of us, and we will experience the consequences (good or bad) of decideing wisely.

You're right, CJ, I do not have closure yet regarding my "bird." And I completely agree that I cannot offer myself fully to another as long as I retain my current attachment. However, I am hoping that the key word here is "fully." I know that I wasn't anywhere close to having let go of my ex-wife (emotionally) when I fell in love with my "bird," and I am hoping that a similar process of one song fading in while another fades out can apply again.

As for letting go of my "dear, lovely bird" - well, that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? If I tried to cut her out of my life, that would allow my emotional attachment to subside, but it would do nothing to alter my understanding of what I want. I see this very much as a head thing rather than a heart thing. The only way I know of to expand my vision is to actively attempt to plug other women into hypothetical scenarios and try to evaluate whether one of those might somehow fulfill the vision I have for my own life in some previously unimagined manner. No matter how much of an attraction I may feel toward a woman (and I assure you, I am quite capable of feeling attraction toward other women), I cannot "fall in love" with someone when the only future I can see in that relationship is away from what I believe to be God's purpose for my life. Note that I do not say that I cannot allow myself to fall in love; I say I cannot fall in love. At least, that is how it seems to me.

I set out to explore the dating scene in the hopes that it would stimulate my imagination, expand the scope of my vision, and allow me to see my lady friend as merely one of multiple possibilities. Unfortunately, so far it appears to be having the opposite effect. I can imagine ways of fulfilling my life's purpose with my lady friend. I can imagine ways of fulfilling my life's purpose alone. But I am more and more coming to see this whole dating thing as a distraction.

It has been worthwhile, since I have learned a number of significant things about myself which I would otherwise probably have missed - and I'm sure there's more of that yet to come. But unfortunately it's also helping me to understand more of why I'm so hung up on this one woman. That, for me, can be a dangerous thing.

Lordslady, I'm not afraid of the work, and I'm not afraid of meeting new people, or of awkwardness and rejection. Also, I'm not "giving up" yet, and if I do decide to give up (as I expect) on approaches such as speed dating and online dating, it will not be because I have given up on dating; it will be because I do not believe that the apparently limited efficiency or efficacy of these approaches for me are worth the investment. Yes, the benefits have the potential to outweigh the difficulties, but that's also true of playing the lottery. The level of potential is of less importance than the risk/reward ratio.

I suspect that I will be much better served by upgrading my interpersonal face-to-face skills. I frequently invite people to have lunch or dinner with me - both men and women, friends and mere acquaintances - just because I want to get to know them better. By continuing this approach, but also using some of those opportunities to practice "flirting" (where appropriate), I believe I will put myself in a better position to capture the interest of the "right" woman if or when her path does intersect with mine.

I don't want to be "just dreaming about how something could be with her" and I don't want either my emotional attachment to her or my belief that we are right for each other to prevent me from seeing the road I should be walking or from walking down that road. But forcing my way down a different road just because it seems to go in the opposite direction from the one that hurts doesn't seem like the height of wisdom either.

My life consists of much more than my romantic wishes or efforts. I believe it would be foolish to permit my romantic feelings to move me from the road I believe God wants me to walk, regardless of whether I let those feelings pull me toward the source of pain or I let them drive me away from it. Note that I could interpret the results of my dating exploration as either an indication that I need to persevere (and maybe figure out what I may be doing to sabotage myself), or as an indication that God has closed that door for me right now.

I accept full responsibility for my decision in this matter, whatever it ends up being, and the really good thing is that I believe I am very nearly to the point where I can make that decision without risking endless "what if's and woulda, coulda, shoulda's," to use Reborn Man's words.

Reborn Man, I appreciate what you're saying about "living today." However, for me that may mean investing myself in things that have nothing to do with dating or trying to find myself a life partner. There are factors in play here that only a couple of people on MB know anything about. (Hi, CJ!) And while I truly appreciate the input from everyone here, as LetSTry pointed out, my path and my pace are solely my own.

knight50 said: I agree with you in some respects. Certainly it's important to consult others involved or affected by a decision. Of course we can't be objective about ourselves. If a decision requires some expertise we don't have, then consulting an expert or experts is a wise choice. The problem when it comes to decisions of the heart is that no one else can tell us what's right for us. A choice may look much more logical, healthy, or beneficial, but unless one's heart is in it, all those positives may be meaningless. Making decisions based on what others want is just as likely to lead to heartache as making decisions based totally on what we want, especially if it will cause harm to others or ourselves. A good therapist doesn't often give advice, he/she helps us sort out our feelings, within the framework of our personal, moral, and ethical values, and choose what's right for us. Accepting responsibility for all our choices is one of the hallmarks of maturity.