What advice would you give a WH who is remaining in an unhappy M, and wants to keep in contact with OW while his BW knows about this?

He doesn't want to leave his BW because
- he thinks she couldn't take it if he left
- he feels it's his responsibility to care of her because she has no income and has a lot of serious health problems
- their 2 children are too young now
- OW has 2 younger children too and one of them is a real problem child.

I am unsure if you are the BW or the WH. Not much advice to give a WH, they are too much in the fog to listen at all. Please give a little more information. (not that I am much help anyway !)

Carnation

I'm neither in this situation, the WH is a good friend of mine. He's very foggy, uncertain and depressed. He feels that giving up OW would take every meaning out of his life - textbook stuff, of course, but all too real to him.

If I were the BW I would go to plan B as this situation has been going on for 4-5 years. But she keeps hoping, of course, because WH stays at home with her and the children.

after that amount of time she should lower the boom on his a$$! does she enjoy living like this??? he needs the wake up call of his life.

and BH, if he where MY friend---i would probably kick the living crap outta him for behaving like this....but that's the 8 personality comming out in me...lol

This situation is too comfortable for him. So what would make him uncomfortable?

I don't know what would make it uncomfortable for him. Exposure? Inviting the OW to dinner and family events?

Based on her endorsement of her husband (staying with him) people may assume that they have an open marriage. (When I didn't know the A has started up again, people just assumed I knew and that this was our arrangement). Perhaps she should talk about her experience in an open marriage at family outings? Social events...

A well thought out Plan B. No warning, just a loving letter and a missing family. He is teaching their family lessons that will bring heartache to future generations - unless she checks it.

Change the home voicemail and instruct people to reach her husband at his girlfriend's place.

Brown...tell you friend to get some cahones and cut bait. He is giving you lame excuses...he isn't worried about his kids and his wifes health, he is afraid of losing his family. My WH told me he was unhappy in our marriage by having an exit affair. Now 9 months later, OW told him to get a life and we are still married. I should have filed for D months ago but like a fool I have been holding onto the hope that maybe WH would see the light. All he does is mope around and act like being with me is a living hell, yet he won't file the D papers. I even filled them out for him, but he has yet to take them to the court house.
He is afraid of losing his pants financially, and losing the one thing in his life that has been unconditional. It just isn't enough for him any more.

So like I said....tell you friend to tell his wife he would like a divorce. Have him get everything in place and make it as fair as possible. Get his wife set up financially and whatever else it takes. Then do it!!! Dragging things out makes it hell for the BS...I should know I am living it.
If he doesn't....tell his wife to kick his [censored] to the curb and move on with his life. I've gotten to the point where I believe that no marriage is worth saving if it includes a WS

I think he's trying to hold on to the best of both worlds...

I feel his lying to both sides...because the situation is comfortable to him.

My question to his BW would be...what is he telling you?
I'm sure that she has no idea...and that she thinks that everything is perfect at home!

BW knows ! OW even was a friend of hers, and their children go to school together.

Like I said - I would plan B this guy so fast his head would spin, if he were my WH. But the BW thinks she can rescue what is left of the M by reluctantly letting WH having his cake and eating it too.

I'm quite sure this will drain her, and leave her with absolutely no self-respect, even if WH chooses to spend the rest of his life with her without ever really committing to the M.

I told him that he is sending her "I don't want you, I don't want you" message ALL THE TIME - and that no human being should be submitted to that.

He's afraid to make a decision. He'd rather have her kick him out, I guess, and even that would make him miserable.

There's not much more exposure to do - the people WH cares about know what is going on, and he is self-employed. Furthermore OW's H is fooling around too, OW got confirmation that he has a girlfriend, so OWH cannot help a lot here either.

I think I'm going to have a talk with my friend's W. I love my friend a lot and we go way back, but ever since I found out about his A, it is painful to see how foggy he is and how he cannot do the right thing.

He in fact ended his A when I told him about my H's A's. He saw my pain and that probably made him realise his A was equally wrong and hurtful, even when his BW knew about it. But after a few months he contacted OW again and is all back into the soul-mate, wonderful OW blahblah stuff that makes me sick to my stomach.

Does OWH know about the affair? And how do you know that he is having an affair? Is that information that was gleaned from the OW?

My friend told me OW had her H officially "caught" with his girlfriend. Such a police report still gives you leverage in case of a D. She told her BH/WH (he strongly suspects but isn't sure of her A) that she'll stay in the M for the children's sake, but that she wants to be free. I don't think she would be lying about all this.

Why do people make things so complicated? What sort of example are the 4 children involved getting? I'm getting really sick of this.

I think I should have a talk with BW and explain plan B to her. I'd rather stay away from all this, but the story comes to my mind that Bob Pure posted about the BH who "put up" with his WW's A just as long as she stayed in the M, and who finally hung himself while WW was on holiday with OM and the children.

If my friend finally moves in with OW I think I'll not visit them before a few years have passed.

BH
I have learned not to project my values and boundaries onto others.

if a person is happy to olerate what you and I perceive as gross disresepect in their M, all we can do is ask that they do so deliberately, not out of weakness or fear.

I know people who have enjoyed the 'swinging' wife swapping scene while married, and were happy with that.

I also know a woman who KNOWS her H cheat on her when away on business, but say snothingas she thinks its a part of the life of a senior executive.

you and I wouldn't live with such circumstances, but we cannot judge the values of someone who chooses so to do.

I agree absolutely about the example set to children however.
Why not print off the Mike & Joan thread and send to her, sayng that she should live deliberately ?

I agree with Bob. Some people do choose to live like this. We have many on this forum who are just like that. They are not victims, but volunteers. She doesn't really want solutions, she just wants to gripe about her poor choices.

It sounds like you are more in contact with the WH instead of the BW. I think you should state your opinion of his behavior and not condone it and basically Plan B or rather cut friendship/contact with him until he gets his head out of his [censored]....and does the right thing by his wife and marriage ie. actively work to make it a real marriage.... DV or commit to fixing it. At which time you can send them here...have you told his W about MB? Does a part of you think the W deserves this treatment...is she so flawed? Doubt it...none of us are perfect.

His W may not understand that she can have her own bounderies and plan of action. She may not have the tools to know what to do to help herself and her marriage. She may be at a loss as to what to do. Maybe pass your copy of SAA or give her Love Must be Tough by Dobson. Unless she is terminally ill and doesn't have the energy to deal with anything, then I'd understand.

I really doubt that she likes being a BW...it is usually so disrespectful and demeaning. Unlikely it is an open marriage agreement situation with the health problems and kid problems involved. I feel sorry for her.

Now the OW...she is another story.

Hello all, thanks for your answers & time.
WH is not just a friend, he's family (blood relative). I have known him all my life and we have always been very close. So it's not easy to turn away from him, but I might have to if he keeps up this cake eating. But so far I'm the only one who really protests his behavior. BW and WH's father feel bad about it, but don't really take a stand. I tell him he should make up his mind, not drag everyone along like this in his indecisiveness.

BW is NOT happy with this. She is getting depressed, crying a lot, being angry or not talking at all, and her physical problems (eyes and back) are getting worse. This is definitely not her choice or something she could get used to. She simply wants WH to be DH again (M of 18 years) and for all of this to "go away".

She isn't very educated, reading English books is impossible, I'll see what exists in Dutch. But she is basically so scared and has so little self-esteem that she really needs good counseling. I'll try to convince her to go back to counseling, she tried 1-2 times then backed out.

She is totally depended upon her WH. He is a bit bossy, but also very caring, and took the whole household upon him when she had back problems (which happened very often and started even before they were married). Also emotionally and practically she's totally dependant upon him.

When WH's mother became terminally ill, WH got depressed because he was very close to his mother. I believe that is when the "switch" happened - he couldn't talk to his W who is more of a "doer" than a "talker", he found a willing ear in OW and things developed from there.

I'm not sure I should "plan B" my friend.
I feel it's my responsibility to at least try and offer them the information I have, and then it's up to them to make their decisions.

I was a deer in the headlights BS for a year, because I was so focused on "saving the marriage" and believed that my Wh was being honest. 4 years is a long time however.

Is there a way to help her focus on herself instead of the marriage? I am glad that you tried to get her to counseling.

This woman needs some sort of intervention, a group of people who confront her and tell her how much they love her, how important she is, and that she needs help. Send her on a women's retreat or something to shake her up and help her find the righteous anger she is afraid to use.

If you are unable to get through to her, try to enlist the help of someone else who may have a different approach. Go to her church, or parents, whatever.

Re. righteous anger: she did smack golf balls across the living room <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> at one time. That scared WH alright. But it just fits into his "look at how crazy she reacts, she's not what I want" scheme, rather than strike the "OMG, what am I doing to this person" cord.

I explained to the WH that her reactions of anger, frustration and depression are NORMAL for almost all BS in her position. He doesn't like hearing that, of course.

They are going on holiday for the next two weeks, with the children and his father. I'm afraid that will get her hopes up again, while WH is still dreaming of a wonderful life with OW.

He wants BW to be "ok" with him seeing OW now and then. OMG, it makes me sick. I can perfectly understand his foggy reasoning. It's like a drug addict looking for his next score to make his life worth while, only it's "real luuuuvvvvv" and not some illegal or legal drug.

LOL...my wife BEGGED me on the day she was supposed to get on the plane to go meet her OM in person...."Can't you just let me go and see if what we have is real, and if it's not I'll come back home to you?!?!"

It's the alien mind that takes over...their perception on reality just isn't the same as ours.

Quite true... it's just too bad that the BW doesn't realise this, and simply feels totally inadequate compared to "wonderful OW" now.

BS's need to be told over and over again, and by different people if possible, about fog, about the textbook stuff that most A's progress by. A support network, like AL-ANON.
I'm afraid I'm the only person who can do this for her right now. I'll try - it's up to her to decide what to do with the information.