Froz, I'm so sorry it turned into a contentious thread for you. I do know your position but I suppose I saw the initial responses to it differently. Questions are different from accusations...I have been asked some of the most unbelievably rude God-awful questions on this forum so I know how hard it is to discern the intent behind them. It's a lot easier when you KNOW you are being accused outright to answer, IMO. The question is how do you tell the difference between an personal attack and a question? A personal attack FEELS like one, although it may not be what the other person intended at all. I don't have a simple or definitive answer, unfortunately.

Sometimes it takes "knowing" who the poster is, in other words being familiar with them and their style. I suppose it is worse when you feel singled out unfairly by someone you don't really "know" but I've been there too. In KA's case, she is a reporter, perhaps more direct than some?

I think the first time I posted to you Froz, I thanked you for sharing something else that had happened in your life, something painful. You did this for the benefit of that person and it WAS generous of you. I don't share that particular portion of my life on this forum, it is self protection on my part. I think I know a little of where you are coming from. Sometimes self protectiveness becomes second nature and we don't even think twice about it. Sometimes it colors the way we see things without us realizing it.

Does this make sense to you at all, I hope I'm not too cryptic? I felt bad that you felt bad, I think it was all so confusing because the words were flying. I don't think it was intended to hurt you even though it ended up that way. I don't "know" KA, I don't know if there is a history behind the posts between the two of you.

If there isn't, maybe you could think of her as sort of *being* the reporter, microphone in your face maybe, but just being herself. I guess I'm asking if could you give her the benefit of the doubt, even if you don't feel she has to you.

Sometimes, when we disagree with each other here on the forum it's easy to ascribe evil motives to the other person. I have been on the receiving end of vile and off base posts myself based on misreading and misinterpretation of the misreading and more misreading, you get the drift. Not my problem, all I can do is correct it with the facts and that's that. If they chose to "hear" great, if not I did my part. If I'm wrong about something, I apologize. Pretty simple, no big guns (read: me having a hissy fit, lol) when I feel a poster has poor intent towards me. It's been a process to learn how to deal with difficult posts over the years for me Frozen, but it's one that may benefit you especially with Pat at your side. I DO want you to feel better about all this, more comfortable in your skin here, I guess. Sound good? {{{Froz}}} KB

It turned into a contentious thread because Frozen and Patriot were being nothing but sincere, and someone accused them of being sarcastic.

Frozen and Patriot... I agree with the "cute" thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, but also... I see/read/hear ~genuine~ in your posts.

As someone said earlier (FF, I think), lots of times it's best to just let the unsolicited, unwarranted slams just bounce off... and be yourselves.

You seem like really nice people to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes to you both.

You are welcome, Pat and knew you meant it.

Froz, the offer of email stands anytime. I did not start this thread to continue your pain but to help take you away from it. Sorry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

KB,

What a thought-provoking and interesting post.

OT, but I love written words. I love everything about them. I love the artistry in crafting them. I love spelling. I love reading, and editing. You post was well put together and the content was equally as valuable to me. I enjoyed reading your post. That was totally OT.

Back to on-topic:



You are absolutely correct and pose some interesting questions and valid points. Please don't be sorry. I was riled about it for a very short time, and a little offended, but I blew it off. It's really no big deal now.



At the risk of sounded jaded, which painful thing are you referring to? I am curious enough to research it, but if you recall it, perhaps you could save me some time. I'm just curious which thing it was.

I didn't find your words cryptic. I think I understand precisely what you mean. I understand your desire for self-protection. I have always been pretty open, straightforward and honest (sometimes to my detriment). I don't mind risking looking foolish or pathetic if any pain from my past experiences could possibly help someone else, even in the smallest of ways.

As far as I know, there is no "history" between KA and I. That was our first altercation. Hopefully, it will also be the last.

There is some "history" with Pep, although I am completely unaware what it pertains to. Any guess on my part would only be an assumption. As far as I have gathered, I seem to remind her of someone. Maybe it's personal, and maybe it isn't. I make no assumptions. I do, however, find it odd that I always seem to be reminding someone very strongly of someone they know. This even occurs in real life. I have asked her directly what it is, and I guess she doesn't feel comfortable sharing that with me. I wish it wasn't so, because I used to gain quite a bit of strength from her support and words. It felt much nicer when she once told me she liked me. Now she seems to fire off cryptic comments and when I ask her about it, she almost immediately retracts her statements without further explanation.

I realize that some may just view others on the board as anonymous people that are not "real life", but as for me...I am quite real, with real experiences, sharing very real feelings. Just because I haven't met someone on this board in person, it doesn't detract at all from the fact that I also see them as very real, with feelings and situations just as real as mine. There are some that I care very deeply about. There are many that I am quite grateful to...simply for sharing their thoughts and time with me. You, for instance, right at this moment...I'm quite grateful you took the time to share any bit of yourself to try to help me. Gimble is another who has graciously shared so much with me. NCWalker is another - who has also befriended Patriot in a way that I will be forever grateful. There are some very lovely people here, and perhaps this morning I forgot about that. Thank you for reminding me.




I will "post-it-note" that to my monitor.



Sounds good, KB. I'll take you up on that.

Thank you so much for your kindness.

FF,

I am not ignoring your offer. I value it immensely and see it as a gracious gift. I am carefully considering it. I have some fears about it.

I am quite a hard case, and I don't want to frustrate you as I seem to have frustrated others on this board. I am also pretty strong-willed and have some very firm ideas and beliefs that I am beyond help. I don't wish to argue this point with anyone because I believe it to be fact. I am taking a risk here by even stating that because I am sure some will argue, or disagree. It is fine if someone wants to disagree. If that's the case, then we will have to just agree to disagree. Also, it seems pointless to pursue a goal that is unattainable. It's just nice to have someone to talk to about it on occassion. It gets pretty lonely carrying it by myself.

Your starting this thread did not cause me pain - quite the contrary. Please don't think you need to apologize. I was actually so touched that someone even "heard" me, I cried with relief.

So, I'll tell you again (without sarcasm)...thank you for caring.

Froz,

My apologies. I had only read a few of your posts on Chasten's thread and not the one you posted just prior to mine on her thread, so I assumed I had read everything you posted. Then I went off to work and just barely got home.

Please forgive my conclusions. My passion about not giving the perp time to persuade an uncertain, frightened wife from doing the right thing was actually in unision with the actions you were trying to state. To get the necessary help to protect her child.

All I could see was you walking in unison with Patriot's opinion that he deserved time to explain... which, after having been through recovery as a spouse in a group setting where sexual addiction brings all sorts of women together - with varying degrees of experiences... I knew that this woman could not give him the time to disarm her.

I don't understand how these two opinions are compatible - what you shared on Chasten's thread about your own experience in doing the right thing for your child, and siding with Patriot on his thread.

I sincerely want to know how you see it - because she either has to get the support and strength to protect her child from someone who would willfully, intentionally save to disk, and keep in his home, the recording of the violation of a child's innocence, soul, psychie, person... whatever you want to call it; or follow the advice of Patriot to salvage the marriage at all costs, and what would seem to me to be the opposing view to allow such a man time to explain... to neutralize, and possibly allowing him the opportunity to do exactly what you feared your child's molestor would do to you.

I'm even more confused by Patriot's stand on this - because he knows what you went through, and knows what you would have gone through, had you followed his advice, to allow him time to explain it away...

The pieces don't fit. What am I missing?

You would be surprised at FF's patience and amazing insite when one on one in messenger or email.

I have valued her input and listening ear immensly. She has helped me greatly with my thoughts and helped me redirect them.

If you do take FF up on her offer - I don't think you would be sorry...but that is only based on my own personal experience with FF.

As a praying woman as she is - her biblical incite and prayers have been so invaluable to me.

And Froz - you never have to carry it alone - that's what friends are for. To help you with your burdens.

Thank you, Dorry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
That sincerely was one of the nicest things I have ever heard.

Not pushing nor will I will be insulted if you don't take up the offer, Froz. Just wanted you to know that someone is offering an ear. My life has not been easy either. I will pray for you and Pat.

KA,

I will be happy to clarify some of these things for you.

Please forgive me that I will need to do it at another time.

I just wanted to let you know that I wasn't ignoring your request.

I will try to get up a little earlier in the morning so I can address your questions, because I may not have time at work tomorrow to do it.

KA,

Okay. Here are the missing pieces. First, I never "walked in unison with Patriot's opinion". I may have walked in unison with Patriot, as a person, because I diasgreed with some of the personal attacks that were going on. I don't like to see anyone personally attacked for their opinion, particularly when it is my husband. I rose to defend him, not necessarily his opinion.

In fact, I never really gave an specific opinion on what action I thought the original poster should take. What I said was this:

From Patriot's thread...


and...



I then agreed with TheRealArt that action should be taken quickly.


You said:



If that is the basis of your argument for the poster not first confronting her husband, I would have to disagree that it would "disarm" her. It didn't disarm me. I chose to confront my husband before I called the police. It certainly didn't stop me from reporting it to the authorities.



Okay, I will show you how they are compatible...

I have already pointed out that I didn't tell Chasten what she should or shouldn't do.

I certainly don't want to be responsible for advising someone specifically what to do or not do in such a serious situation. I'm no expert, and I don't know the entire situation and all the facts. Even if I did, I probably still would have offered her the same words.

What I suggested to her was to view opinions as just that - opinions. I shared my personal experience with her and how I handled it, and I advised her to seek her options, particularly expert opinions from people who are trained to deal with those type of situations, and to carefully weigh the consequences of each of those actions.




Interestingly enough, the direction I chose in my own personal situation WAS what Patriot suggested. I chose to confront my husband before calling the authorities. In doing so, I certainly wasn't "allowing him time to explain it away". I simply felt it was important to hear what my former husband had to say, not even necessarily to be FAIR to him. I just wanted to hear what he had to say...period. I never told Chasten that that was what I believed she should do. I didn't do so for the aforementioned reasons, and because her situation is different from mine. Perhaps that is where your misunderstanding lies.




Why do you see only two options? I told Chasten that I believed there to exist at least three options. Those are not the only two, and I can prove it...I chose both the above options you mentioned. They were not opposing, as you suggested. In choosing to listen to what my husband had to say, I wasn't choosing to "salvage the marriage at all costs". I had already determined, in my situation, that my husband and my children could no longer live in the same house...and where my children go, I go. I don't believe Patriot ever suggested to "salvage the marriage at all costs", either.

I accept your apology, though I don't really know specifically what it was you were apologizing for. I will conclude by saying that I was HIGHLY offended that you would even suggest that I would ever protect a perpetrator of any crime against a child. I have personally had to deal with the aftermath and destruction of such a crime.

It is my personal opinion that child molesters are not rehabilitatible and should be castrated. The sense of injustice that I feel as a result of the legal outcome of my situation (or lack thereof) was something I tried not to allow to cloud my advice to Chasten. Our situations are different. It wouldn't have been fair to her or sound for me to have said "Fry the [censored]", even if that was what I was feeling.

I hope that clears some things up for you. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to be heard.

Froz

I actually never said salvage the marriage at all costs.

can you please point out the remark I made that says this specifically?

Also, it seems I am against protecting the mother and child.

Can you please point those remarks out?

Also, you have a bias in that you see only 2 outcomes from this scenario(based on your statement of previous experience with just this kind of thing). Given all the parameters in this situation, it would be mathematically impossible to have ONLY 2 possible outcomes. There will be several possible outcomes.

certainly you understand that I am trying to stay away from the bad outcomes.

Frozen and Patriot-

I owe you BOTH A BIG APOLOGY.

Reading that interchange, I took it totally out of context, and completely the wrong way. That was foolish on my part, and I APOLOGIZE sincerely for making a stupid remark without knowing what all was going on.

I will try to reign in MY comments in the future...again...I am sorry for jumping to conclusions based on two short statements.

OT, but I love written words. I love everything about them. I love the artistry in crafting them. I love spelling. I love reading, and editing. You post was well put together and the content was equally as valuable to me. I enjoyed reading your post. That was totally OT.

OT maybe, but too cool!! I also LOVE words. I love ink on paper, the crispness of a new book and the comfort of an old one. I love bookshelves and bookmarkers and tagging the edges of an important page. I love the way words shape themselves to tell a story, bending and twisting and surprising me sometimes. I love books about books, vocabulary lists and word challenges. True confession: I used to read the back of the Crest toothpaste in the bathroom and make new words out of the text when there was nothing else to read, that's how addicted I am to words! Maybe this quirk of mine is part of an intense desire to "speak* my (own) voice.

I know I worded that last sentence strangely but you may know what I am saying anyway. (I have a feeling that you do.) The sentence leads me into the post I referred to on another thread. I don't want to link it up but it was in response to a poster who is being abused in her marriage and does not feel she has the ability to do anything about it. You openly shared your experience and I didn't want to let it slip by at the time because I know the cost of revisiting and sharing something like that. It was just a short little blurb to you but it was heartfelt. And no Froz, you don't sound *jaded* by not knowing which painful experience I was talking about, you sound like me....sometimes life has a way of throwing more curveballs at some people than others.

I'm glad that you feel comfortable sharing, it can be a tremendous help to others. Personally, I had to learn the hard way to draw the line at certain topics on public forums for my own wellbeing. I do have a wonderful outlet elsewhere and have met women that I am totally in awe of, in all stages of recovery. I feel comfortable and safe letting my hair down there. Loving and supportive as my H is, sometimes the fact that he's not a woman and certainly has not experienced what I have, is a huge detriment!

Anyway, I wanted YOU to feel comfortable and safe Froz and I'm so glad a dialog has opened up between you and KA. We are all obviously PASSIONATE people but hey, that's a good thing as long as we don't exhaust ourselves! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> KB

Owl,

Thanks for being big enough to apologize...accepted and disregarded. It happens.


Froz

Okay, FF...

I'll try posting here first and if it doesn't go well, I guess I'll go "underground", so to speak.

I don't even know where to begin.

What is Recovery?

It doesn't seem to be happening for us, and it doesn't seem to be happening for me, personally, either. As a matter of fact, things seem only to be getting worse. It feels like I'm hanging on to my...sanity, life, whatever...by a mere thread.

We grow further and further apart every day. I feel like I am drifting away from anything, everything, and everyone with every day that passes. At first, I held on to the notion that time would heal. I no longer believe that. We're coming up on eight months since D-Day, here, and things seem only to have gotten worse, as I said.

I can't seem to put my finger on exactly why...though I suspect that it is me. I am probably what is holding us back. I don't know, really.

It doesn't help that we rarely see each other. It feels like we live separate lives. Patriot has started working on his Master's degree, so between work and school...we rarely spend time together. When we do spend time together, the distance is so great that all the time we have is used up trying to reconnect. Now, even that isn't happening. We never do reconnect.

Any of the time we do spend together is increasingly uncomfortable for both of us. I sense that he is growing pretty impatient and tired of it all, too.

I actually felt more connected with him closer to D-Day than now, ironically. Sure, emotions were running high...but at least there was SOMETHING. Now, there is nothing.

Okay, there was the very vague, tip of the iceberg version. I guess it's a start, but it actually gets way more complicated than that.

Patriot isn't here for me to POJA divulging more, so I'll just leave it at that for now.

Thanks again for caring. I know that I need help, but it really feels to me like this situation is already beyond repair. It feels like I am beyond repair, as well. But just for the sake of making an attempt, I thought I would try - again.

Froz, I am glad you are giving this a chance. Don't put so much blame on yourself. You have been hurt terribly and need time to heal. Real quick let's start with this because my H just got home. This past weekend my H and I really reconnected. He is finally through withdrawl and we spent hours together for the first time in ages. It was magical! By the time the weekend was over we were like the early stages of our R. Then still seeking mentioned about the amount of time the Harley's recommend and how it has affected his M to make the effort. This is his quote from another thread

I know you and Pat have a lot going on but finding time to do things you enjoy together on a regular basis should bring some of that spark back.

Froz, I have been deeply depressed and scarred by all that has occured in our M. 3 A's and the birth of an OC and in between he did not treat me well at all. Add to that the revelation of my A from long ago and here we are almost honeymoon like after really spending time together.

Next, YOU. Have you gotten IC? If not why not? It is essential for you to have some personal healing. Are you on AD's? What if any is your relationship with God?

Ok, I have to run. Hubby does not like to compete with the computer.

{{Froz}}

Frozen,

My apology is for exactly that which offended you. My neglegence in searching for additional information, and my saying inflammatory things about your performance as a mother, and Patriot's behavior toward your daughter being anything but honorable. I am deeply sorry.

Patriot - I really am too tired to go back through all of these threads to find your specific words that Chasten's marriage should be a priority in her specific situation.

I only ask that you be mindful that not all women are as resolute as your dear wife was in the face of child exploitation, molestation or abuse. Some mothers go into denial, doubt themselves, and are easily talked down from taking appropriate action.

I've been around enough women recovering from co-dependency to know that planting any seeds of question, can be enough to back them down. Co-dependency comes from conflict avoidance. Your wife had the wisdom to seek support to protect herself and her child.

My alarm and passion at your position of confrontation THEN involve the police comes from this knowledge that the majority of co-dependent women will avoid conflict of this nature - go read Chasten's first post, then call to mind any knowledge and awareness of the nature of conflict avoidance; then hopefully you will understand Bramblerose's repeated advice to "Call the Police!"

Please don't assume women in these kinds of relationships have the internal strength to face down a man they've suddenly discovered they really don't know. (And sometimes the men they do know - for current example, read anything by KMEJ).

Froz, you out there? After reading Pat's thread I think I understand a bit better. You seem deeply depressed. Give yourself a break on trying to get over this. You need to work through your pain, it takes time. Remember that there is hope though. I have been reading a book that Loy mentioned on Pat's thread. Every Heart Restored My suggestion to you right now is to read this book. Forget anything but personal recovery right now. Do try to spend as much time as possible with Pat and your kids but please get some alone time in too. You cannot carry the weight of the world on your shoulders forever. Give that load to God. I waited, waited for the LORD; who bent down and heard my cry,
3
Drew me out of the pit of destruction, out of the mud of the swamp, Set my feet upon rock, steadied my steps,
4
2 And put a new song in my mouth, a hymn to our God. Many shall look on in awe and they shall trust in the LORD.

bumping for frozen

FF,

Thanks for bumping me. I apologize that I was out of town (family obligation) this past weekend with no access to a computer.

I have a response, but I have to run a couple of errands.

Thank you for keeping me in your thoughts.