Okay, I read your story, and now I understand. I do believe your husband is a SA. He won't get better until he seeks out some counseling.

However, you can get better, and live a nice life, with or WITHOUT him. I would suggest doing a 180. Have you read about it? It is basically where you don't talk relationship with your husband, and behave like you are moving on without him.

Since your husband thinks you are controlling, that will give him the feeling he is free. Then he won't be able to blame you for everything.

Ms,

Need to get U on a plan. Will outline it later but know that others can help you get a good plan going. Also see if you can schedule a phone couseling session with Steve from MB. If not, find a MC in your area who is familar with MB principals. There are books you need t/b reading to get you on track.

Your H sounds like he is a KISA yet very needy. A bad combo but one prime for having an A. Mine was similar. Our backgrounds make us good wives but once we are in their possession, their neediness takes off in another direction until THEY get their priorities in order. My H did similar. We are recovered now.

Will check back later. You have good people posting to you. Consider their thoughts carefully.

take care,
L.

Thanks Believer and Orchid. Just came back from shopping. It was bad. I went to BabiesRus, since I have a baby shower to go to next weekend, and looking at other happy families/couples made me feel so sad. It brought back our happy memoroies when we were expecting ours. We used to go there every weekend.

Today my H has our son, so I was all alone. Tears started to come out while I was in the store. I missed my H, my son, and us being together.

I am so weak that I am mad at myself. I never thought I would be this weak! I always thought I would be okay without my H - until the whole thing happened. Yes, I took him for granted.

I am not familiar with 180 nor KISA. I did have a phone counseling with Steve two weeks ago. He suggested that I ask H as a matter of fact "wouldn't it be great if we could be in love again and be happy together?". He gave me a lot of ideas as to what I should tell him if he disagrees. But H never replied to that question. I asked him in different ways several times, but he told me that he does not love me and he wants to move on. He wants to talk about how to split our assets and everything. He thinks I am hanging in there because of money (which I still don't understand how that works!).

I called my girlfriend when I came back from shopping because I have been crying and cannot function. She suggested strongly I need to see a counselor. But I have tried seeing a counselor for myself before, for a couple of months or longer. But she/he cannot bring my H back - they focus on my wellbeing, which is of course very important, but I was frustrated because I was only talking to them to feel better but the situation was not changing at all (or getting worse).

I know I am trying to control him or the situation, which is impossible. But how can I really accept that he is gone and I will be okay without him?

Thank you for all of your thoughts and ideas - knowing that I am not the only one fighting makes me feel a bit stronger. Orchid, what was your H like before addressing his issues? My H was seeing a counselor for his SA problems, but I am not sure if he is still doing that now.

Oh, one another thing to add to explain our situation - I am 36 going on 37 this year. So my biological clock is ticking. I wanted to have another one.

The beginning of 2004, we had a huge fight and that time my H told me "it may sound so bad and cold, but I don't want to have another child". I was devastated. He even mentioned the D word for the first time in our marriage. I cried, and we made up, said we would go see a marriage conselor, but we never did. I really regret it. We did not go because on my part, I did not think things were getting worse. Also I had never done counseling before and did not give much credit for it.

Anyway, then last June my H was arrested and started seeing a counselor for his SA. He changed so much (one of the reasons we fought a lot before was he is so lazy that I always ended up doing everything, and I wanted him to be more involved in our son), and started to help me out without having me ask for it. So I thought he was getting better, and after six months not mentioning about the second child, I brought it up. That DID it.

He panicked, and said "no way". The way he acted was so shocking that I decided not to push any further. I told him "okay, since our son and I are going on a trip in November for two weeks (we went to visit my folks in Japan), why don't you think about it?". He agreed.

Then the night we returned from the trip (by the way, during our stay in Japan, we exchanged phone calls and emails and he said he missed us and loved us and could not wait to see us!), he told me "I have been thinking, but we should split". That is how the whole thing started. During our vacation, he met the young college girl at church, which triggered it. But as I mentioned, nothing happened other than him giving her flowers, because she was not interested in him.

He was raised by his step mom (his mother passed away when he was only 2), and always mad about how they grew up, because they were treated differently from his mom's real daughters (the first four were from the first mom, and then his dad remarried and had two more kids). He claims he has been unhappy for 36 years and wants to be happy the second half of his life.

Maybe I am going to ask H to come up with his terms soon. I am tired of fighting an uphill battle.

He will most likely come up with something I would not want to agree, so then I will need to contact one of the lawyers (I have met 7 or 8 lawyers using the free consultation so far - they all said I should not have any problems getting the physical custody, even though H wants a 50% physical custody with no child support. Removal of the child will be very difficult, though. Because I DO want to have an option to return to my home country with the child since I do not have any family here. But that would be difficult, unless H agrees. H used to say he understands because he himself had a hard time adjusting to this country when his family moved here from Italy when he was in high school).

I still love him (the he was before) and want us to be together, but actually reading Caren's stories under "He filed on me" made me think my situation is also, unfortunately, very similar and it appears our marriage cannot be saved either.

H has been saying the same thing: "I don't love you", "I don't want to be married to you", "I am not happy and not interested in this relationship", "you left me (I took an international assignment six years ago and was working abroad for one year, but we agreed to that that time) saying your career was more important", "it is your fault", "divorce is the only way", etc.

I feel terrible when I think that he has been so lonely and sad when I did not know about his emotions at all. I wish I could go back and really BE with him to comfort him.

Do you all think I am wasting my time and H has moved on, does not have any feeling left for me, and Plan A nor B would not work? I am going to contact one of the lawyers I talked next week, because I have been paying the mortgage all by myself for the past three months, and Illinois is an equity state so I should get some kind of credit for it (also I put down the down payment for this house, which was very substantial). He told me the judge should take that into consideration, but maybe I should start getting some paperwork done. But before filing, I think I should at least offer H an opportunity to come up with his own terms. What do you think? I did give him what I want (full custody, visitation schedule, an option to remove our child out of the state, etc.) in paper a couple of months ago. He has a copy of it.

He keeps saying the divorce is the only way, but has been too cheap to even hire a lawyer. H makes good money so I don't understand.

I miss my son soooooo much. It's my son, yet I have to SHARE him with H during the weekend, which absolutely sucks! I know H misses him a lot, but then all what he has to do is to come home! But of course that is not an option for H. Why can't he believe that things can improve in our marriage??

I'm trying to find the Michelle Weiner Davis 180 degree list for you. But the search here doesn't work for me. I really think it would help you. It is basically doing the opposite of what you are doing now - no relationship talk, no clinginess, etc.

Believer, if you can get the list about the 180 strategy somehow, that would be much appreciated.

My H just dropped our son off. Everytime he gets dropped off, he gets so upset that I don't know how he could just walk away from a screaming child. Especially when he claims he loves his son sooooooo much. I couldn't. He kept crying "Papa, come back, Papa, come here! I want Papa!". I was trying to calm him down, but he was too upset to hear anything I had to tell him. I told him "I am sorry baby, I want Papa back too. But he has to go back to his house. But I am always here and will never leave you. We will go through this together, okay?" I used to lie to him saying "he has to go to work", but even though he is only 2, he knew that I was lying and that excuse did not work, so now I decided to be honest. I won't say anything bad about H, but cannot say that I am happy that H is leaving us either.

H took my son to the pool today, spending 3-4 hours outside. When he was in the car, he threw up. H said "he was already sick this morning". Again, he never takes any responsibility! I asked him "how long were you guys outside in the sun? Did you make sure he spent some time in the shade?" "No, but there were other kids too and they were okay". Excuse me, but for one thing, our son is only 2, and also who care what other kids are doing?? It's our son! I told him "I think he's got heat stroke". "Oh, I don't think so". I have been keeping a journal, and I will surely put this incident down to point out that he is not a good/responsible parent as he claims he is!

All what I wanted was a family, yes, I DID want to have the second child, but was that asking too much? Now I don't have a husband, won't have a second child, and the only child I have can be screwed up mentally because of the mess we are going through. Besides, I can't even have him to myself all the time - I have to SHARE him with H. It's just not fair.

Maybe my problem is that I get attached to everything so easily. It was very hard for me to leave my parents (especially my mom) and friends to come to this country. Then I got so attached to my H that he often felt heavy. Then comes the baby. I am so attached him that I would do anything to make him happy. If I have to beg in front of the whole world to get his father back, I would. But at the same time, I am a very proud person. So I am really amazed at myself how I have tried THIS hard and THIS long to try to get my H back.

But I was mad tonight because my baby was sick. My H didn't even use his head to think "maybe it is too hot to stay outside in the sun too long", and my baby got sick. H probably wanted to ask me to get some papertowel or something to clean his car, as the kid threw up in his car (his dear Acura TL), but I just picked up the kid and went inside the house to take care of him. Yes, I can't let this child get sick because of the selfish H!!

The sad thing is that ever since this mess with H happened, our son gets sick so easily and often. He was never this sick. I am very sure it has a lot to do with our separation. How can I minimize his pain? Actually, if he does not see his father, he does much better emotionally (he remains stable) even though he is of course happy to see H. Everytime he has to be dropped off, the drama takes place and the kid remain upset for quite some time.

I was planning on going to a "Divorce Recovery" self help group meeting tomorrow morning at the nearby church. I have been to one of them before, but that time I was not ready. I was crying all the time and felt that I was the only one who was still hoping to save our marriage. Now that my son is sick, most probably I won't go, but has anyone been to one of these meetings? Does it help? How do you control your fear about your unknown future?

Here it is, courtesy of Susan. No I don't think you should go to Divorce Recovery just yet.

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting, get busy, do things, church, sports, tan,
15. When home with your spouse, be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you’ve had an awakening
and as far as you’re concerned, you’re going to move on with your life.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold, wait to see if spouse notices.
19. No matter what you’re feeling TODAY, only show spouse happiness.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk.
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on other parts of your life).
28. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed
much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of
what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives
because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

--------------------

Thanks Believer. Wow, these are almost completely opposite of what I have done so far. I have begged, cried in front of him, tried to reason him, told him repeatedly how much I and we love him, emailed him just to see how he was doing. Obviously, none worked.

Although the reason I did what I did was I was trying to give him the space he needed right after he moved out, and did not even email him until he emailed or called me. I was being "cool". He would still get mad when I did not return his calls or emails right away (because I was travelling for my work or of some other good reasons - I never ignored his calls/emails), and started saying really nasty things.

One of my girlfriend went through the marriage crisis because her H was having an A, and she implemented Plan A and successfully got him back. So I decided to be really loving and nice after all, as I did not feel my "giving him space" was working. H was calm, yes, when I was being "cool", but he was clearly feeling less and less for me and I felt the distance was getting greater. I could not bear that and started to email him to tell him about my feelings.

Now what do I do? If I start being calm and stop calling or emailing him, then if he wants to talk about "how to split things up", would I say "yes, let's talk about it"? Do I talk to my attorney in the mean time to protect myself and my son?

H always asks me he wants to see and spend more time with our son, and I have always emailed him (purposely, to show I DO let him see his son, in case he ends up lying in the court) to ask him if he would like to spend some time during the weekend. Do I need to stop that as well? Can I talk about money though? He is not paying for the house.

Does this 180 list work for H who is not having an A (YET) and who does not live with his wife? I am scared... But like I mentioned at the beginning, all I have done so far did not work, so I have nothing to lose, right, by implementing this?

I am being a chicken.... I must be strong for the sake of my son!!!!!! I hate being in this situation! It's been almost 8 months!

I'm no expert, but it seems like what you have been doing isn't working.

I would encourage your husband to spend time with your son. But you can try the 180 stuff. See how your husband reacts.

Okay, I will try that. Thanks Believer. Please God let H still have some normal senses!

I'm not sure what your husband's problem is, but it can't hurt to change your behavior and see what happens.

At least it should give him the feeling that he is free. Maybe that will make him think, and stop blaming you.

Could you share some more details about your counseling with Steve Harley? Does he think your H is having an A? What PLAN did he recommend for you? I would suspect that he has already provided a ROAD MAP for you. It is important to follow his recommendations to you exactly... Maybe we can help you with this if we know more about what Steve recommended. I'm not so sure that there is not another woman now....

Thanks Believer and M1254. Yes, I can share as much as details it takes to "improve" the situation!!

I had only one session with Steve, so I basically told him what has happened in the past, what H has been saying, etc. Based on that, one of the first comments Steve made was
"it looks like your H is a very impatient person", which is very true. "Because he is very impatient, it is very difficult for him to imagine doing other than what he wants or has decided, which is to divorce".

Steve said to me "it is nothing to restore the marriage compared to the amount of energy and efforts and time and money you have to spend to divorce. Your H does not see it."

He suggested that I send him en email ASAP to ask "wouldn't it be great if we are in love again, and are happy together? Wouldn't it be the best scenario?"

I told him "I don't think he would agree. He does not think I could change. He thinks he has been very sad and unhappy and felt emptyness in our marriage. He said he would NEVER want to live like that ever again"

Steve "if he says he does not believe you can change, then tell him 'you have been trying to change by seeing a SA counselor. I believe I can change too', if he does not even agree with your point of being happy together is the best scenario especially because you guys have a child, then he is not making sense so you might as well stop talking to him".

Steve wants to chip away little by litte, the hardened H's heart and belief that he could never be happy with me again. He wanted me to somehow get H talk to him.

Me "we tried MC already and it didn't work, and H does not want to do it. I tried to drag him to a marriage seminar but he didn't want to hear what others had to tell him. I am very sure H will not agree to do the counseling with you".

Steve "tell him 'our son is about to lose one of his arms. You won't say okay, let's chop it off. You would seek a second opinion. It is the same thing'"

Me "but since we already tried MC and I asked him about MCs before, in his mind, he has already got second or even third opinions"

Steve "tell him you can't move on without trying the last thing, which is to talk to me"

I did not ask him if he thinks H is having an A, because I told him "as far as I know, H still does not have anyone". Of course, I could be wrong, but the way he was acting a few weeks ago ("I am not afraid of dying alone! The life is not all about finding a woman and getting stuck in the relationship!"), it is hard to imagine that at least that time, he was still alone. But now he is working out, and I know that he wants to meet someone and wants to impress her so he is working out. He never worked out while we were together. He is basically really lazy.

Anyway, right after I spoke to Steve, I sent H the email. A very simple short one. No response. Two days later (I decided not to follow up right away), I sent him another one but basically saying the same thing. No response to that either. That night, H called to speak to our son. I asked him if he had received my emails. H said he was not in the office in the afternoon because his company had a picnic but DID see my first email. I asked him if he wants to respond to that. H did not say anything specific about what I was asking, but said "MS, I can't come back to you. I have too much anger."

I asked him to do the last MC. "I really want us to talk to this guy (I did not want to mention Steve's name). Also, Steve wants to talk to H alone, but I did not want to scare H, so used the word 'us'".

H "no, I don't trust you MS. This is not going to be the last MC".

Then I got so emotional and told him that I love him and said "and I know you still love me. You want to deny it because it is easier for you to move on. Our son needs both of us. And I am not doing this just for the sake of him, I am doing this because I love you".

Yeah, maybe that was not the right move? I don't know. No matter what I do though, he is like a piece of wall.

Then since I was going out of town with my son (I went on a short trip during the fourth of July weekend with my girlfriends), I sent him an email on Friday - which was basically a poem, to tell him the reasons I love him. Also I said him to be careful during the weekend. No response, but I did not expect one, so that was fine.

On Tuesday, when we returned work, he sent me an email in the morning "MS, thanks, I just got this (I guess he left early on Friday and did not see my poem until Tuesday morning). MS, I don't know what to say at this point".

I did not respond to that. But then I got this email from one of my girlfriends - you know, kind of a chainletter but about LOVE. I forwarded it to him. Also, since I haven't shared our son's recent pix in a while, I sent H two of them (pix of him with me, yes, I guess there was some calculation on my part. I wanted to send H pix of US to remind him of his familiy).

Then H's reply "MS, you NEED to stop these crazy emails. Take care of yourself and stop obsessiong over me because things have changed. Really, YOU HAVE TO STOP, YOU ARE MAKING ME WORSE".

I replied "I do not feel these are crazy emails and just wanted to share. If they did not touch your heart, your heart must have become very hard and cold, and that is not H we all know. You have blamed your parents, me, your colleagues and bosses for everything. Now you are saying my being nice and loving to you is also bad and making you worse. When is this blaming ever going to end? This is very important to all of us, because we are talking about our marriage and relationship. We did not get married to get divorved. We married to stay together for the better or the worse. People you meet at your SA counseling may all have broken marriages/relationships, but that is not normal. You are different. You have much stronger family value. We love you very much".

I know, maybe I should not have sent that one. But H we all remember is so sweet, could not harm anyone, and always said we (him being Italian and me being Japanese) have much stronger family value and would stay together. So I just wanted him to remember how he was before.

Anyway, I did not receive anything to that. Then again two days later (I did not contact him during the 48 hours), he called me on my cell at night. I was visiting my friends' house with my son and driving back home. H was very upset. I knew he had called me home and since I was not answering, he was upset. This happened before too. H always screens his calls and emails and does not always answer, but I always do. When I didn't because I was simply not there, H usually gets so upset and started yelling "MS, I know you are talking to lawyer and I am not because I don't have money and you do. That pisses me off", or "MS, since you are not talking to me, I am going to fight in the court".

That night was the same thing. He told me "this is bad, you are not letting me see my son (which is not true!). Do you know how bad that is to the kid? Kids can get really screwed up if they do not know their fathers love them"

Me "do you know how bad a divorce is for kids?"

H "MS, I don't love you. I don't love you. Let's just talk about how to split things up based on how much we make (because I make more). We need to talk".

Then the weekend. We exchanged emails before the weekend to talk about when H was going to come by to pick up our son, etc. H gave me a check yesterday when he came to pick our boy up. Then he said "for now, I will give you this amount every two weeks, until we settle things down and figure out more reasonable amount". H does not even want to pay the minimun 20% net income, that is what he is referring to. I did not say anything, because if we bring this to the court, no judge will allow him to pay less than that anyway, so there is no point for me to try to convince him.

What do you think? Any hope? I feel H even hates me, so do not see much hope. But I can't give up. What should I do?

H just called to see how our boy is doing. I told him that he is still sick. H said "oh I am sorry to hear..". What? It is your son, and as far as I am concerned, YOU made him sick, by letting him play in the sun for extended period of time without providing any hat or shaded area!

Anyway, I did not say anything to that comment. He asked me if I had gone to church, and I said "no, because he is sick". "Oh, yeah, which church?" "Were you going with XXX (my neighbor whom we went to the weekend trip with)?" I answered to those questions, but who cares? I tend to get some hope everytime H asks these types of questions (e.g., he wanted to know where I was going on a trip and who I was going with), but in the end they do not really mean much. In fact, I think H wants to make sure I am OKAY, so that H does not have to worry about my wellbeing.

I think for the same reason, H wanted to see if I went to church and get emotional support so that H does not have to feel guilty.

I would try the 180 degree thing. WH is blaming you for everything. It is good that you have friends to go out with. Start doing things for yourself, and getting very busy. Do the things on the list.

I would also talk ONLY about son to your husband - nothing else. Give him a good taste of living on his own, without you.

MS,

U R coddling the WS when you s/b savign yourself to loving your H. Right now your H is probably a WS. His actions show all but WHO the OW is. That is why all your love and lines of reasonings are being spit back at you with poisonous venom.

Listen hon, you need to STOP sending him stuff which shows him love and STOP trying to teach him anything. Listen to Believer, she is spending time to help you get over a very big emotional hurdle. You are being co-dependant and this is hurting your personal recovery as well as aggravating the WS.

Treat him as if he is a WS. Deal with the WS on a limited basis and spend the time you have working on you. Figure out your boundaries and work on them. This will allow you to finish your plan A and get plan B ready.

You need t/d some reading instead of sending him e-mails. Read Surviving an Affair and Love must be tough. The 1st book is by Dr. W. Harley and the 2nd is by Dr. James Dobson.

Also read His Needs/Her Needs to learn in general how to speak to a man. Let's get you back with a plan. Then call Steve and he will see an improved MS, even if your WS won't admit to it. ok? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Thank you Believer and Orchid. Yes, I admit I have been co-dependant. I have tried to be strong but when I see other happy families, remember our happy times, or see my son crying and asking for his father, it is so easy for me to break down and turn to H. I have to break the bad cycle.

I am going to get His Needs/Her Needs. Also I actually called in Dr. Harley and his wife's radio show and they said they would send me a book.

It looks like I may have to stay home with my son tomorrow b/c he still have a high fever. If I want my H to take turn and take a day off on Tuesday so I don't have to keep taking the time off, should I ask him? Or should I just assume on a going forward basis, I am going to need to take care of these things all by myself, so might as well not ask him? I could ask my in-laws. If my job requires that I need to be there on Tue., do you recommend I ask my in-laws instead of H?

Thanks again! Your confident responses have been giving me strength.

1/2 of any recovery is acknowledgement. Your recognition of your co-dependancy issue shows you are now ready to deal with fixing it.

As for your son's illness, I am sorry the little tyke is ill but he is the father and s/b responsible to give his share in caring for his sick child. LIke yourself, I don't feel H is a good a care-giver than I am but that does not excuse him from taking care of his child. I used to just call to check up more frequently when H took care of our son than if it was a more trusted source. Sad but true. Now he is a much better and more caring father. For some crappy reason, caring for his child was hard for him. Seems his parents neglect scarred his need t/b caring....or something stupid like that. Arrrgh.....

L.