We just went to a book store and I bought two books "His needs/Her needs" and "Codependency No More". Actually H mentioned the book about the codependency a while back when he was still here, and suggested that we both read it. That is when he wanted to reconsile. H used to read the bible, SA White Book, Zen book, etc., all sorts of spiritual and self help book when he was here, but when he moved out, he left all of them. That itself means to me that he has given up on us.

Anyway, I will start reading my new books from tonight. H loves his son, but he priortizes his needs first, which was one of the biggest complaints I had when we lived together. In my mind, you should be able to sacrifise your needs in order to raise a healthy child. So for example, watching a TV show that has a lot of violence or sex scenes around the kid should be out of question, so I always had to ask H to stop it or to wait until our son is in bed. I also asked him not to play the war computer game in front of our son. Also H grew up in a household where TV is always on, even if no one is actually watching it. I grew up in a household where dinner was a family time and we were allowed to watch TV only 30 minutes a day during the weekday. So I always asked H to switch off during our dinner. All of these "ristrictions" were added to H's complaining list of my controlling behavior. But I wanted to raise a healthy child...

So, if our son is sick, I know H takes care of him. Actually it is easy for him because our son is allowed to watch TV longer when he is sick (since that is about the only thing he can do), so H can just let our son watch TV so it is pretty easy. But H is not very good at keeping the same routine or schedule so our son often misses his nap when he spends time with his father.

Okay, I will take a day off tomorrow but if the boy is still sick on Tue., I will ask H.

I just saw my neighbors - the father and mother were sitting outside on the porch with their 1-year-old baby. How nice. I miss my family! I feel so lonely.

A lot of the stuff you are talking about here is just the different ways you were raised. If the TV was on 24/7 at your husband's house when he was young, that is normal for him.

On the other hand, your family only watched TV 30 minutes a day on the weekend. That is VERY unusual. Notice, I didn't say bad, just not the norm.

This may be part of your problem.

Was just reading up some of early Orchid's posting - do you live in Hawaii? My H, our son and I were there the end of April through the beg. of May for a week. It was H's idea. It was when he wanted to try to reconsile. Though two days after we came back from the trip, he packed and moved out. We were there also shortly after we started dating 15 years ago.

Okay, time to tuck in my little one. I will read up my new books. God please let me be strong and give me some hope!

MS,

Yes I live in Hawaii now. We moved here last year t/b closer to my parents. Used to live in CA.

Glad to hear your H is capable of taking care of your son. Then that's what he needs t/d. Expect the WS to try and get out of it or blame you if anything goes haywire with his stay. Don't sweat it. Just expect it and learn to roll 'dem eyes. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Good morning. Believer, thanks for your input - for some reason, I did not get it until now. Anyway, no, I said "30 minutes TV watching" during the weekday (if I said weekend, I meant to say weekday). And that only applied to us kids when we were young. After certain age (don't remember exactly, but say after 12 or so), we were watching more TV naturally. But at the same time, we were busy doing other things (sports, going out with the whole family, etc.), we really did not have much time to watch TV.

Orchid, thanks for your reply. It's always nice to be close to the family. I wish my family was nearby.

I was reading both books I mentioned last night - here is the problem. H thinks he has been codependent. He has told me several times and still now claims "I have always said what pleased you and ignored my own feelings. I did not know that was building up. I need to focus on myself now. Because if I cannot be true to myself, how can I be true to you and our son?"

Well the thing is, if you think you are codependent and decide to work on yourself, ultimately you become selfish and our relationship will break down. The codependent book and Dr. Harley's book naturally conflict each other and I don't know what to do.

I mentioned some of H's comments to Steve, and he also said that some of the things counselors recommend during the 12 steps do not take marriage into consideration, because they primarily focus on the addicts, and the result is often still broken relationships.

I feel the same way now. It's one thing I, who wants to restore our marriage read up these books and work on myself. But it's another thing that H who wants OUT thinks he has been codependent and decides as long as H is with me he won't get well and feels that he needs to focus on himself, not our relationship.

This really seems like a losing battle. No matter what I do, H won't come back, that is how I have been feeling the past several weeks. Am I wasting my time? That is what my friends and family and even H's family are saying.

I will do what I need to do, which is to work on myself, because no matter what happens, that will help me. But of course I cannot deny that there is some hope that my work will also help H realize several things. But if that is not the case, I know I will be even more devastated.

My neighbor got a divorce too last year (her XH was cheating). She has a daughter too and was devastated, but did not even try to get him back. She got so mad and moved on right away. So it took them so short from the time the A was found out till they finished the paperwork. One year later, she is doing fine and ready to look for a date. Several of my friends have told me that I should be able to find a "better" one and should move on. They don't understand why I have been hanging on so long. They don't think H deserves me.

Sometimes I wish I was more like my neighbor and be able to just get really mad at my H and move on. I keep remembering good things about H and us and it's really hard for me to write off so easily. To me, it shows I realy love him, and am glad I am not a cold person who can just forget about the past 15 years and move on. But it hurts so much.

Usually mornings are always hard for me. Nights are O.K., but mornings are tough.

O.K., I better go now. My son does not have a fever so I will take him to his daycare. I am going to be late for work but at least I don't have to miss my day. Not that I look forward to going to work but I cannot afford losing my job now. I have to raise my son by myself. Oh these pressures...

MS:

It seems that your H is able to play mind games with you, that he knows how to manipulate you. Do you agree with this? He said to you:



Do you believe this, MS? Don't buy this for one minute. It is not OK for him to give you responsibility for his feelings and actions. WE CAN ONLY CONTROL OURSELVES, MS! You have absolutely no control over him. You do not have the ability to make him do anything....

This is a hard lesson to learn. I know. However, it is key to help you get through this. The goal now, in my opinion, needs to be to establish your own plan to for YOURSELF. That will be best for YOU and YOUR RELATIONSHIP with H (hopefully) or anyone else.

When I really got this, MS, and put this in practice, I think it was a key part of my eventual marital recovery. It really blew my FWH's mind. He began to respect me. With respect comes him valuing me. Even though it was new to me and I was hurting inside, I held my head up and acted as if I was confident in my interactions with him. The confidence has gradually grown over the years of my PERSONAL and MARITAL RECOVERY. However, I was where you are now. I remember CHRIS on the MB FORUM asking me over and over about MYSELF , asking me what I was going to do? Even Steve Harley encouraged me to focus on MY PLAN. I am recommending this for you, MS.

What will this look like for you? #1 CHANGE: NO MORE BEGGING AND PLEADING. It is really a turnoff for some reason. It does not work for you. It brings you down. My H has never forgotten me saying to him. "I've decided that I don't want you until you want me and you will want me, I'm sure of it". How's that for self-confidence? A large part of me didn't believe what I was saying. However, I convinced myself somehow that this change was my only option to maintain my sanity and self-preservation. #2: DON'T CONTACT HIM-LET HIM CONTACT YOU. Didn't I read somewhere that Steve said that there's no use talking to him if he's not listening? Plus, I guarantee you that he will contact you. #3: PROTECT YOURSELF LEGALLY: There's not much to say about this. #4: STOP LISTENING TO HIS BLAH, BLAH, BLAH: I know this is hard. However, I would try to accept that a lot of what he is saying is aimed at manipulating you. It sounds like he is trying to push your buttons. He sounds like a WH to me with the same old script. My H said the same stuff to me: "Face it, I never loved you, I don't love you, etc... He especially said this when I was begging him to love me. Try not to listen. Most importantly, MS., DEVELOP YOUR PLAN. What do you personally need to work on to be the best person that you can be. Develop tunnel vision about this, making this your primary focus. This should not be determined by what your H wants but by what you want...

What do you think?

BTW, I would strongly suspect that there is another woman. I would research this. Don't ask him. Of course, he won't tell you. Do your research.

Thanks M1254. All of what you said makes sense and gives me some hope since you said your FWH used to say the same thing (I never loved you, I don't love you, etc.) but still you were able to save your marriage. I have been trying to accomplish two completely opposite things: (1) maintain my hope and faith, (2) try not to get hurt anymore and believe I will be okay with or without H.

So far, when I focus on (1), I cannot do (2) and if I try to do (2), then I feel like I need to contact a lawyer and start the paperwork, which means no success on (1).

How do I get legal protection without offending H or blowing my plan of secretly restoring H's love for me? For example, should I ask him for more money than he has been giving me because I need that? But I KNOW H would not give that to me or would get REALLY mad. H said money is not important to him, but YES, it is, because I have been trying not to mention money, but H often brought it up and is very concerned of his money.

Another question. I have never even been to H's apartment. Even if I go there, I won't be able to get in. How do I find out if H has another woman? If H has someone, that would not be anyone I know, because H just started his new job in May and I do not know anyone in his company, and now H hangs out with people he met through SA meetings or the Italian Club. I introduced him to the Italian Club, so I know a couple who participates in some of the activities. The last time I spoke to them, they did not think H was talking to any particular girl.

MS:

I'm not really following your line of thinking. You said:



Your goals don't seem opposite to me. ALWAYS MAINTAIN YOUR HOPE AND FAITH! There is always hope as long as you are living and breathing. If you believe this, really believe this, this will save you when you are FEELING HURT . You see, you are allowing yourself to FEEL HURT. Of course, this is understandable. However, you are not ACTUALLY HURT! You woke up and got out of your bed this morning. You are not disabled. You are still functioning. You are able to get up and go to work. You are able to post on this forum. You see where I am going with this? No one can take away your hope and faith....

You said:



MS, read back over what I said about SELF-RESPECT. I really believe now what we've always heard. We've got to show love for ourselves before we can expect anyone else to love us. You have a better chance of gaining your H's love and RESPECT if you see a lawyer in order to protect yourself. READ THAT STATEMENT OVER AGAIN. Do you hear me? You will not win his love by allowing him to emotionally abuse you. What do you mean by SECRETLY restoring his love for you? NO SECRETS! That's the goal!

You asked:


Remember, NO MORE BEGGING AND PLEADING. Act to take care of yourself! Seeing a lawyer doesn't not mean the end of your marriage. Shucks, my FWH and I payed a lawyer and signed a separation agreement that ended up being worthless and a total waste of money. However, I ensured that my son and I would be financially taken care of by him if he chose to stay with the OW! That was for sure! Whew, it gets me riled to think about it! But you see, that's way in the past for me now....


I guess I would just assume that there is another woman and continue to try to find info. to support this. We do know that he is not with you right now and he is not celibate, right?

No, M1254, he is definitely not celibate for sure. He is the kind of person who cannot live alone. That's why he used to beg me not to leave him.

Now he is looking for one (unless he has found one recently), he feels lonely and calls up his brother to see if he can pop over (his brother told me several times). When he was angry, he told me "maybe I will never find anyone, but that is okay, I am not afraid of being alone and dying alone. Life is not all about finding a woman and getting stuck in the relationship".

He does not want to pay much because he wants so be able to go out to bars on the weekend and/or to pay for the membership for the dating service. And once he finds someone, I am sure he wants to spend on her. So money IS important for him right now.

H just called this morning to see how our son was. I just told him (not in a cold way but business like) that he was sick throughout the weekend and did not eat anything but the temperature came down this morning so I dropped him off at his daycare. H said "well if we need to ask for my parents to help us (meaning to take care of him if we both have to go to work and cannot take time off), we have to". I did not really answer to that and said "okay, bye", and hung up.

I will contact the attorney to see what I can do right now or if it is better to seek a legal separation so at least H has to pay a certain amount of money.

Thank you for your encouragement.

I think it's good to be pleasant and upbeat with him-just not whiny....

I would commence with PLAN A.

However, I would go ahead and proceed with the legal protection.

Okay, I will continue with Plan A. It has been close to 8 months, although I have not been implementing Plan A all along. I hope the effectiveness of Plan A will not wear off.

I can do this, I can do this...

Did anyone try to submit Steve's counseling claim to your insurance company to get reimnursement?

I'm sorry, MS. Insurance companies only pay for face-to-face psychotherapy and not marital coaching......

Oh, that's what I thought... Bummer.

I am very tired. I want to scream. I have been fighting this uphill battle for 8 months now and feel that I don't have any energy left. Sometimes I just want to end the pain. Oftne I get really angry b/c H wants it all - freedome, no responsibility, but enjoying our son's company whenever he wants at my expense!

I want my H back, yes, but at the same time H may continue to do this going forward. I first discovered H's love letter to one of his co-workers 10 years ago and was devastated. He said in the letter "my marriage to my wife it based on convenience", which hurt me so much. H apologized and said it was only lust and H only loved me. Then he did again last fall and even before including all other incidents I never knew.

I also have this thing about wanting to have my second child. I know I should be greatful that I already have one - a beautiful, funny, strong and smart child. But I always pictured us having at least two kids and live happily ever after.

I know EVEN IF H comes back (which at this point seems 0.00001% chance), H would not want to have another child. Then I will be wondering "the fact he does not want another one must mean H is not 100% sure about our relationship...". So I may be still resentful towards him. Also the fact I am already 36 turning 37 this fall, my biological clock is ticking louder and louder.

Then I think - is it at least forward-thinking if I stop hanging in there and start looking for someone? Who knows two years down the road this someone and I can be together and possibly talking about having a baby.

But then the reality kicks in. I still want H, my son and I to be the family and to live together. Also, even if I end up being really disgusted by H, I would not be ready to look for anyone yet. So I will be just greiving for the next 1-2 years, wasting my precious biological time??

Again when I think of that I get mad at my H for forcing me into this situation. I know I have done a part of the damage to our relationship as well, but H has been the one who always had this secret life I did not know about, which greatly affected our relationship. And H is the one who wants out.

This is a very bad thought process because it really makes me feel absolutely hopeless. I went to good school, worked hard, maintained myself well, tried to be a good mother, and the result of that is this??

Did you read any of my previous postings to you today?

I'm confused by this post.

Did you disagree with my recommendations to you?

You've got to work on yourself FIRST AND FOREMOST!!

Mimi, I could not DISAGREE with you more on this statement......just kidding <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, I couldn't resist.

Sorry to the original poster for the ill timed comment on your thread. I don't think I have anything to add that has not already been said or that you would want to hear.

BOL,

Sour...................

M1254 and Lemonman, I do agree with your comments and suggestions. I know I have to work on myself.

But often I get this uncontrollable fear, which leads either to heavy depression or anger, and I feel really vulnerable. I am struggling to get out of this mess by improving myself, yet the hopeless thoughts often occupy me saying "your life is over, you will never get what you want, what you once assumed you will get". I don't know how to control this fear and hopelessness.

Thanks, your encouragement as well as criticism are all truly appriciated. I will try to get tough each day.

You know Milkshake, let me just share with you something that happened to me. Right now, you are so distraught because you "think" you will never "get what you want" in life. Well, a year from now, you will BE A COMPLETELY different person. What you think you "need" and "want" now will be very different at that time.

You have NO CHOICE in the matter here. You are forever changed because of this with your Wayward, but you can CHOOSE how you live your life from here on out.

My life has never been better than it is today. I would have never belived that statement one year ago. One year ago, I would have given up everything up in my life for my WW to have been "true" to me. That was misguided thinking and not reality. I could NOT change her or "make" her do anything. Despite my efforts. I sure wish the "alien" who is MAKING all of these wayward spouses cheat on their families her would come around so I could "thank" him for exposing my wife and saving my life, but curiously he has never shown his face... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now, I am not still married, but I still honestly believe I am as big as success as anyone here. I say that and truly mean that. There are without a doubt many people who don't consider me a "successful" marriage builder because of my divorce, but they would be so sorely mistaken. That is ok, we all have different STANDARDS and measures of success. It took me a while to figure that all out. Your marriage does not define your life. PLease realize that. Life is moving on along with or without you. Hope on this bus, you just never know what is in store for you. You never know.

You can and will be a success story NO MATTER what your Husband says or does. You are struggling today but you can thrive tommorrow. This pain too shall pass. Trust me, it does.

BOL,

Sour................. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's only "uncontrollable fear" if you say it is .... you have to be willing to take control ...

And of course, controlling our fears is an option open to ALL of us ...

When you tell yourself you cannot control something within yourself, you are making yourself a victim of your own choices

It is difficult to control our fears ... but it is certainly possible ....

Think of the men who stormed the beaches WWII at Normandy .... don't you think they were afraid?

Step one ... owning your fear as a choice you are making. You can choose to acknowledge the fear ... and then choose the correct action anyway.

If fear controls you .... it is your choice.

A book especially for someone like you

Love Must Be Tough ... by James Dobson

He talks about how a wayward feels trapped by all the "ILY" talk a needy betrayed spouse tends to pour on.

It drives some WS out the door for good.

He recommends a specific plan of action for situations that almost mirror yours.

Give it a try. I highly recommend this book