Thank you Mimi1254. I don't know what to say b/c you are taking your time to respond to me and I truly feel that you understand my feeling and what I am going through and that itself means so much to me.

I do understand everything you are saying. It's those moments when I feel extremely vulnerable other thoughts creep in, urging me to "do something" before it is too late! Then I panic. Then I feel time is slipping away. Then I imagine things, such as my H feeling really happy with someone or is about to become very happy with someone and will forget about everything about me and us and our memories. Then I tell myself, no, I have to be in control, my son needs at least one parent who is happy and stable. Then my son asks me about H. Then I cry. Then I feel like I have no future...

My friend has told me several times that I am just going around a circle. That's true. I REALLY do understand what you are saying Mimi. And I wish I could hug you right now to tell how much you just gave me the strength I needed for tonight by replying to me and telling me what you said above.

I will call back the SA-NON group tomorrow. Dr. Harley's website does say that his MB tactics cannot be directly applied to someone with addiction, however when I spoke to Steve he said "it does not matter, the problem is H is not in love with you". But when I spoke to Dr. Harley and his wife briefly (I called in their radio show last week), they said b/c H is an SA, the standard MB strategy is not applicable. I am confused about this point.

Thank you so much Mimi to be there for me and to listen to me!!! One thing I have learned through over the past 8 months - no matter what happens to my M, at least I learned that there are SO MANY people who are supportive and understanding and willing to help others. That's already something very valuable that otherwise I would have never discovered. The world is not such a bad place after all.

MS -

Don't feel bad. Most of us were just like you at first. I don't know how many times people tried to get me to do what I needed to do to protect myself.

I did take anti-D's and they were a life-saver. I took them for about 8 months, and had no problem tapering off them. They helped me to the things I needed to do.

Regardless of his issue, you need to get yourself to a higher ground so you can deal with his issues later. Do you think U are really emotionally ready to tackle that challenge?

L.

Thank you Believer and Orchid and good morning to all.

Mornings are very hard for me. It's the beginning of the day, and each morning I feel I won't be able to make it. But I WILL!!!

Please bear with me asking this again here - so since H is an addict, Plan A of trying to break off A (in H's case his living away from us in order to meet someone) does not apply and I just have to let go? My girlfriend who successfully got her FWH back used Plan A tactics and thought it was applicable to my H, since in H's mind, it is AS IF he is having an A in his fantasy world. I remember what you said Mimi, MB strategies do not work on someone with addiction and I cannot be CONTROLLING. I just want to be very very clear b/c I do not want to have any misunderstanding and end up doing the wrong things.

Another problem or clarification I need is that although H was told he is a SA, unlike AA or a drug addiction, it is kind of hard for me or his family/friends to be 100% convinced that H is an SA, and sometimes I feel that H is doing what he is doing now b/c his EN's were not met by me, and whether he is an addict or not might not have been an issue. At the same time, he definitely has an addictive personality (he is a nicotine addict, he was addicted to pot for the longest time, which I did not really know about, and also he was addicted to computer games for a long time, which I am not sure if he still is), so maybe it does not matter. As long as I behave in a codependent manner, I might have enabled H in the past (I once asked him about it b/c my therapist told me, but H did not agree that I had enabled him to engage in all sorts of self-destructional behaviors. H said the emptiness and unhappiness he felt in our relationship over the past 10 years or so have caused the damage to his mental wellbeing and that I had been selfish and I would never change).

Okay, I am going no where again. I must stop obsessing. I will call back the SA-NON group, my therapist, and hopefully I will hear back from at least one of the lawyers I called yesterday.

Oh the final question. August 14 is H's birthday. It turns out I could get free tickets for the family to outdoor opera that night. I am 100% SURE that H would not want to go with me anyway, but do you think I can invite H? Or is that considered me trying to control/beg again? Your inputs are very much appreciated.

Maybe you should schedule another appt. with Steve Harley to get a better understanding of his views on the addiction issue...

Hi Mimi, I actually just called Steve this morning to see if he has any availability for the rest of the week. He is available around noon tomorrow or has a lot of slots open next Mon.

I also was able to get a hold of one of the lawyers and am going to see him tomorrow or on Fri. We are supposed to talk later today to schedule the appointment.

I left another message to the SA-NON group to find out more about their meeting schedule. Because if they have any evening meeting in the city, since I work in the city that might be more convenient for me to attend on a regular basis.

I am considering calling my old therapist I liked (though due to scheduling conflict I changed to another one whom I am not very impressed with), but she has told me numerous times that I would be better off w/o H, so I feel like trying to make apointments with both her and Steve is like trying to confuse myself.

All in all, though, I feel I am making some type of progress by doing all of these things since yesterday.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Great, MILK!

Pat yourself on the back for all that you have accomplished in just one day. This time next week you might be off mountain climbing.....

I'll be looking forward to hearing what Steve has to say. Ask him, too, about the choice of therapist. I so much respect his opinion. He was literally a LIFE SAVER for me....

STAY POSITIVE!!!

"FEEL THE FEAR AND DO IT ANYWAYS!"

Thank you Mimi! I will definitely need to stay positive and all of your support is helping me move forward each day.

After reading Tatertot's story, I am not sure if I was codependent. My current behavior is very much so, but I cannot say that I had lived FOR him. H said I have been selfish and lived the way I WANTED and neglected H's needs. If that is true, then my trying to live for me would only convince H that after all I AM a selfish person. And I want to SHOW H that I could change into a person who shows more affection and love towards H. I will continue to do what I need to do to PREPARE myself for the worst outsome, but I am confused again.

My best friend's brother just died today in Iraq. I met him a few months ago. He was very nice, sweet, full of life, and had a girlfriend he wanted to marry. I am really sad. Why these sad things keep happening around me??

Evidently you do not yet know how to recognize blatent manipulation.

Addicts are MASTERS at manipulation.

MILK:

I definitely agree with PEP that you are being manipulated by your H.

I want to also suggest that you look more closely at what you had to say and then your response. Working on your MINDSET here again.

You said:



Why would you buy that anything that HE is saying about YOU is TRUE ? Furthermore, remember that you will ALWAYS LOSE by trying to CONVINCE HIM of anything. What only matters, what only matters is what you think of about yourself? NO ONE will be able to know you better than you know yourself. These are some things that I have had to learn MILKSHAKE and wanted to share this with you.

You said:



The key is for you to go ahead and show affection and love towards your H if this is what YOU want to do. The problem here is the goal of SHOWING HIM. Again you are powerless. Again you lose. You give him the power of noticing or disregarding what you are doing. You only have control over yourself which is also true for him. You can SHOW as much as you want. What if he chooses to disregard you and not to notice? You can't make him notice what you are SHOWING him.

So the net outcome of your SENSE OF POWERLESSNESS IS:



Been there, done this, MILK! When you are FEELING CONFUSED, alarms should be sounding in your head. The alarms should tell you, I'm in a powerless position again. Tell yourself:
"I am a SMART WOMAN who can figure this out for myself; I will not let him overpower and manipulate me".

I know that this is easier said than done. I had to practice and practice. I still do. My FWH very occasionally slips into his manipulative ways and I very occasionally get caught. It was part of our "old dance" with each other. My ALARMS start going off. I stick out my chest, become the POWERFUL WOMAN GODDESS that I am, do my SELF-TALK ,SAY and DO whatever is necessary with him;
he backs off and treats me with RESPECT, LOVE AND KINDNESS....

I'm still working on my YS but that is another whole story....

Good morning everyone and THANK YOU all for your replies.

The reason why I tend to buy into H's blames is that I know for the period of time (after our son was born), I was always saying negative things about H (e.g., H is being lazy, being irresponsible, never keeping his promises, not being involved with the child enough, not being a good role model to our son, lying a lot, always watching TV, playing computer games whole day long, not listening to other people's stories, being disorganized, always losing things, always looking for things, being very pessimistic, being selfish, I am always cleaning after his mess, etc.), and that is true.

I thought I had reasons to be upset with H that time, b/c H never kept his promises or acted in a responsible manner. But ever since H has told me that he wants to end this marriage, I have looked back what really was going through H's mind and I feel so bad and sad.

Seeing H having gone through extensive soul search and ended up suffering from depression and also encouraged his escape into pot smoking and SA things (even though yes H did that even before we knew each other, H was engaged in these activities a lot more when H was feeling sad about our relationship) makes me feel like I am such a b**** and nasty wife and I want to apologize to H. I did apologized to him many times. But H is very mad at me.

I heard from my therapists and friends who have addicts in their family that addicts are very good at manipulating. So I stop and think about it for a moment. Yeah, that's right, it was not like I was nagging H for no reasons - for H to say that I was always unhappy with H while he had all sorts of secrets in his life (chasing after women at night on the street to get aroused, smoking pot behind my back, etc.) and always lied to me - that is shifting responsibility. Then I hear again from H that all he wanted from me was small things such as hugging, kissing, putting my arm around him. Then again I feel so guilty. Or I watch TV/movies and see how women are warm towards their husbands and I feel guilty again. This is what H wanted for a very long time, and I did not provide it. So this is a punishment for me to neglect my H for so long.

I really NEED to gain control over my life again. I don't want to feel guilty and helpless anymore, but if I indeed did something very horrible to my dear H, then maybe I deserve the suffering. I want to ask God!!! What is my problem??

MS,

Has your H admitted to a drug addiction? Is he still smoking pot? Other than the SA, is he discussing his drug addiction w/ his therapist?

My H is also someone who craves attention. I've discussed this with his mother and we both agreed that he has very low self-esteem but, on the other hand, is very self-centered and needs constant kudos. When he was heavy into his meth addiction and I was still denying it, I nagged him to death!!! I called him lazy, crazy, low-life, you name it! I certainly was not loving towards a man who slept all weekend, spent $$ on God-knows-what, refused time with his children, was extremely moody, and yada yada. I did, however, make everyone else believe everything in our house was hunky-dory.

When out with co-workers drinking and carrying on, he would get attention from a particular woman (she looks like the Cable Guy!) and would end up drunk and high and in her bed at the end of the evening. He got his attention!

During his stint in rehab, he came to understand what I was feeling. He learned that everything he did was manipulative and all the unknowns also made ME crazy! You see, addiction is a sickness in the WHOLE FAMILY! I had became a co-dependent, an enabler, and a total BIATCH!

After rehab, he hooked up with Hoochy Mama and ended up in an EA. She gave him the pity and attention he craved. He moved out.

At first I begged him to come home. Constantly apologized and professed my undying love for him. Did everything I could to convince him I had changed and I would kiss his feet every day if he wanted. He pulled away.

My IC suggested to back off and do things with my kids. We went fishing, to the movies, swimming... We were rarely home when he called. He hated the idea that we were doing "family" things without him. We would even go over to a friend's house to just hang out and not be at home. I even went out with some friends to a male strip show!!(got a lap dance, too! I bet the dancers wax their behinds!)

When he called, I was very upbeat and always acted like I was too busy. I stopped talking about our relationship. I started mowing the lawn myself and the boys and I even picked up the doggy doo in the back yard (some of the piles were bigger than my youngest son!) I no longer called him to ask him to do things for us at the house. Actually, I rarely called him at all! This killed him!

I noticed that I cried a lot less (nights were still a killer!). I didn't go nuts if I didn't hear from him for a couple of days. I realized that I was much stronger and that I could raise 3 boys, 2 cats, and a very large dog by myself if I had to. Doing this was going to bring my husband back home or not. If not, I knew I'd be okay.

My H noticed the change in me. One night he commented on it. I explained that I felt better and stronger and I knew I could make it on my own. I would prefer him there with us but if not, oh well. I also said that if we divorced, don't expect me to be single for the rest of my life. I'm a Mom first, but I am still a woman.

He started calling more to "just see how I was". Every now and again, he'd accidently say "Honey" or "Babe". The next thing I knew, he was asking to come home.

Though I still have my demons and triggers (I run into Cable Guy and Hoochie Mama once in awhile. I say nothing and head in opposite direction), my H has spent the last three years cleaning our credit, spending tons of time with the boys, working on the house, hugging and kissing and telling us all how much he loves all of us!

We are still in recovery but I tell ya we have been through heck! There is always hope!!

Milkshake, I can only tell of my experiences. There is no guarantee in life but I can say that you need to do for you and your son. Take him to McD's, the park, a friend's house. Keep busy. Let your H know that you love him, that you wish he was here with you and your son, but if not, well...OOPS! Gotta go! Son and I have a playdate! (you know what I mean!)

Keep your head high and stop blaming yourself. Take it one day at a time and know that you alone cannot change your H.

God Bless!

Tatertot

Tatertot, thank you for sharing your story, which really gave me hope and strength.

I know H told his therapist that he used to smoke pot everyday in recent years until he was arrested. His therapist told him to completely QUIT it and the last time H told me about it, he said he hadn't smoked since for 6 months or so, and he was very proud of it. I think H wanted me to be very excited about it too, but I was not b/c to me his making a big deal out of this "not smoking for 6 months" itself meant that he is heavily addicted to the thing. And I was sad so I could not hide my sadness and just said "good".

To be honest, I am not sure if H is still sober or not. H is not supposed to date another woman for the next 3 or 5 years (I forgot) after divorce, b/c he is an SA. That is what is taught/recommended at SA meetings/therapist sessions. But H is eagerly looking for a woman, so that itself shows he is not following the advice, so who knows if he is again smoking pot or not.

How long did your FWH live away from home? Did you try to see a MC during that time? Did you ask him to help pay for the house and other bills? H gets mad when he calls and when I am not around, b/c he thinks I am screening calls. There were several occasions; he emailed me at work but I did not reply right away b/c I was in NY for business and he sent me really nasty emails "you must be seeing a lawyer and that pisses me off b/c you have the money and I don't, let's talk about splitting things fairly"; he called me but I was out with my son till late and left me a message "since you are not talking to me, I am going to fight for 50/50 custody and you cannot leave this country!"; he called me again at night but we were out and he left me a message "you are blocking my way to see my son, it's so bad, you are dragging the whole thing b/c you want money, I don't love you and let's talk about how to split things accodring to how much we make".

So H does not like when I do not answer the phone or not reply to his emails, but he always talk about D and how to split things whenever that happens. H does not want to hire a lawyer b/c it is expensive so wants us to agree on terms. I agreed with H. I also gave him what I want (my terms) 3 months ago but he hasn't given me his. He keeps talking about D and lawyer, but is not doing anything. This drives me crazy! Not that I want H to file on me, but what is he thinking? Why does he continue to say hurtful things at me (you are nothing in my life, you became nothing, I don't love you, I have never loved you, it's all your fault, you don't interest me as a person, I really look forward to meeting someone very different, oh I guess you still have my last name, etc.)?

H called last night to say goodnight to our son, but he was already asleep. H said "oh, I ONLY called to tell him good night and that I love him very much", as if I am really NOTHING. He then asked if our son started eating a bit now (he was sick during the weekend) so I said, yeah, he is eating a bit now, and H said "good, okay, take care (in the very emotionless voice)" so I just said "good night" and hung up. Did I handle it okay?

It's me here repeating the same old song to you....

You are now in the POWERLESS ZONE...

You will NEVER EVER EVER get an answer to this question...

You might as well beat your head against the wall......

Mimi's right.
My H also said hurtful things during the time he was gone (3 mos.). He doesn't know why. I don't know why. Fog, I guess. I don't dwell on that anymore.

Thanks Mimi and Taterto.

You know, I was just walking down the hallway from the ladies' room (don't ask why this idea just hit me now on my way back from that particular place) and thought: even if what H claims is half or even 75% true, that I have been cold, still, given our vow, history, memories, our child, and especially the fact I am willing to learn from it and improve our situation, for H to use these as excuses to leave us to do whatever pleases him is NOT right. H might have felt sad and empty, but then we should have communicated. H is not willing to work on our issues and his personal issues (=addictions), then even if what he felt about me and us was correct, still that is not right. So yes, I feel guilty about some of the things I have done/said in the past, but I AM willing to learn from it. So I cannot continue to feel guilty.

Okay, for now (hopefully this thought would last at least for 24 hours... PLEASE!) I feel okay. For H to look for another woman while he is still married is WRONG, right?

Hi there MS!

Well, first, I am glad to see you are getting a lot of responses over here.

No, I'm going to try and chime in a little here. What I'm going to say has been said by a lot of the posters here in a lot of different ways, but I'm going to try again anyway! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First, let's do this. Clear your mind. Think about something peaceful, NO thoughts of WH or DS, just you enjoying something pleasant. I know it isn't easy, but try and completely clear your mind of all the chaos in your life right now.

Ok. The reason I asked you to do this is... I think you need to step back for a little while, and really look at yourself. My advice here really has nothing to do with WH. What I see here from all your posts (and this is just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth!) is that you have two main problems that you need to deal with before you can even think about trying to get your marriage on track.

1. Focus. I know it isn't easy, but from what I've read here, you are trying the scatter-shot approach. You are so desperate to get things fixed that you are trying anything and everything. Which tends to mean that none of the approaches will work, because none are getting a full-fledged effort. You are really bouncing around too much.

2. Fear. So much of what you are doing here seems to be motivated by your sense of fear. Understandable, but not helpful. You are not in your home country, so your WH is really the only family and support you have that is close. Additionally, you have indicated that WH and DS are your life. Certainly, they should be a big part of your life, but you are still an individual. You're so afraid of being alone that you come across as grasping and needy. I believe you when you said you were never this way before, I don't think co-dependancy is necissarily your problem here. I think it's more that you are isolated. Not on purpose, perhaps, more because of circumstande, but isolated nonetheless. Which makes the thought of being without WH and/or DS unbearable.

I really relate to you, especially on the second point. I was there. My family all live over 600 miles from me. And through my marriage, I had gotten very isolated to where my WH and now XH was almost the only person in my life. I reacted much the same as you in the beginning when he first walked out. My job is here, and I didn't want to leave it, but I also felt that if WH walked out for good, I would be all alone, forever. It wasn't a logical thought, but it was how I felt.

This is the main reason why people are telling you to focus on yourself. Focusing on yourself does NOT mean you are selfish and ignore WHs needs - it just means you don't let him drag you down with him. It means you build a strong life for yourself where you can be happy alone, but which will have room for him if he decides to be in it.

So what do you do? Well, the counseling is paramount. I think it will help you a lot. But the other part of this is getting a social life beyond your WH and DS. This does NOT mean dating, but really, do you have any women friends? It doesn't sound like it to me, but I could be mistaken.

The idea here is to be yourself. If you did not have any of these relationship problems to worry about, and were only focused on yourself, what would you do? Take classes, get involved in a charity? Find a few friends to just spend a little time with each week. Build a social life where you don't have time to sit and fret about the marriage problems.

That's not saying you won't work on them. But keep yourself busy enough that you don't sit with nothing to do but WORRY about them. Because worrying won't fix anything, and will likely make things worse.

The 180 plan people have mentioned to you sounds like a good idea for you, but only if you REALLY do it. Find other interests and move on. That doesn't preclude doing Plan A though. What it means is that you work on making a life for yourself without him. Refrain from calling and e-mailing. Especially refrain from "relationship talk" and frequent I love yous/I NEED yous. In a way, this IS doing plan A for you, because you will be making yourself more attractive to him by not being needy. You can still make it clear to him that you want the marriage, and you think it can be a wonderful marriage, but that you aren't going to beg, and that you can and will have a great life without him too. Make him feel (without explicitly telling him!) that he's really missing out on a wonderful life by choosing not to share it with you.

Whew.... I can be really long-winded when I get going, and I'm not quite done yet, so take a breather before you continue if you need to!

Ok. Now that I've gotten the talk about you out of the way, I am going to talk just a little about him. First of all, he IS a cheater. Even if it has all been fantasy in his head, he clearly has been with other women in at least mind, if not body. And putting up personals....argh! I know you don't want to hear this, but I do have great doubts about making things work out with him. Mainly because what I see here is that he is a serial cheater. It's happened several times, he really doesn't feel any remorse, he's actively looking.... He may not be only an SA, he may be addicted to the high of initial attraction too. That "butterflies in the stomach" feeling.

Now I'm not saying this to discourage you from trying - I'm just trying to prepare you. He really does not look like a good prospect for recovery from what you have said so far. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try, it just means it's that much more important for you to be able to build a life you can sustain if he is not a part of it. A life where you can be happy with OR without him.

Finally, I wanted to let you know I do understand about the biological clock thing too. Me... well, we never had kids, and while I am SO glad I didn't have them with my XH, because what an unhealthy environment HE would have provided, it's very tough. I'm 38, no kids, and just starting to feel that "now or never" pull for having kids. Add to it that it is unlikely for me I would find someone in time to have kids - I'm fat, and while that definitely does not preclude finding someone, it does make the field a lot narrower. When you add in that I am fairly intelligent and make a pretty good living on my own (not bragging, just stating facts,) it makes it even harder. Why? Because no matter how much we all like to pretend things like that don't matter, they do. My XH was not quite at the same level intelligence-wise, and he was always very defensive about it, and even treated me like I was stupid a lot because of it, which cause no end of problems between us. And I made more money, and it was an issue too, though we tried to act like it wasn't. Any of these things in and of themselves wouldn't be too bad to overcome, but putting them all together, I can see the field is pretty narrow for me. (Though I will say, I am seeing a pretty wonderful guy these days, but he has made it clear he does not want a serious relationship, and that he has no intention of getting married again. Other than that, he's probably about perfect for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> )

My solution to all this? Well, I didn't want to rush out and make another mistake because the biological clock is ticking. So, I have decided that sometime within the next few years, when I feel mentally ready and my life is stable enough (I have been divorced just a year now, and figure I need more time really first,) I will adopt. Or at least try to!

What it all comes down to is - a lot happens in our lives that we just cannot control. Instead, we need to be flexible. It's a very trite and overused saying, I know, but when life hands you lemons, you make lemonade. You can't force things to be fixed in your marriage and with you WH, all you can do is make the best of the life you've been given now.

Whew. Ok, I'm done preaching for now. I hope this helps a little. Just calm down, pick a plan, focus, and work on yourself. Make sense?

OSXgirl, I really appreciate your input. When I was growing up, I always had so many (almost too many) friends around me. But when I moved here, that time I did not really speak good English yet, and did not have anyone. My H was the only one I had and I became heavily depend upon him, which he felt too "heavy".

And yet, I ended up with a better paying job, ended up being accepted by a better business school, and I always thought H was proud of me b/c he always said so, but H told his folks after the whole thing happened that I have always made him feel inadequate. This is something similar to Tatertot's FWH's trait, but my H has also VERY low self-esteem, yet very stubborn and needy for affection and attention.

Because of my work environment, often my friends are male. They are successful (from the income stand point), went to top business school, etc., and H thought I was comparing him to those I work with. I probably did, but I actually did for other things such as working around the house, spending time with kids, etc., b/c in my mind, those people have a lot busier lifestyle than my H yet they wake up early to spend time with kids or spend weekends working around the house, etc., and I was really jealous. My H cannot fix anything (he is not handy at all), hates yard work, is not patient enough to spend more than 10 minutes with our son when he was younger, does not even take our dog out for a walk. So I felt H was the laziest person I had ever met and nagged as a result.

Anyway, I don't have nearly as many friends as I used to in my home country here, so you are right OSXgirl. I am also being NEEDY. This is a big turnoff to H, right.

And about H's potential to cheat again - my friends told me the same thing. He said "your H will do this again, b/c it sounds like he has some mental issues, so forget about him and move on." I am so scared to face the reality. Of course no one can predict the future, but if it is true that H will do this again b/c he always did in the past, then of course I do not want my and my son's lives to be ruined by H and I have to move on. I have been asking my therapists what they think about this, but of course no one can tell. Though all of them said that H does have personal issues (addictions) and unless those are treated, no relationships will work for H.

As for his SA, I strongly believe that he is an LOVE addict, which basically kind of what you said - he is always looking for this burning feeling of love. H even said himself "I am a SA and Love addict". Apparently every time he changed his jobs (that's another thing - H changed his jobs pretty much every two years for the past 12 years. I think he always need something "fresh", whether it's a relationship or job), it caused him a lot of stress and H always fell in love with someone secretly.

What does this all mean? I don't know!!! But like all of you suggested, I will try to focus on my life, without being selfish. I will let H know that I am still interested in saving our marriage but will work toward my goal - that is to feel honestly that I will be okay with or without him.