Thanks for listening to my whining and giving me your advice, Mimi. I do want to help myself, of course. Do you think I am just torturing myself by being trapped in the negative thinking cycle? I need to get out of it. Please be patient with me. I want to come out STRONG and CERTAIN about my future and relationship as you all.

I just submitted the Love Bank Inventory qestionnaires to SH. Yes, I am doing it. God, I wish H agreed to do MC w/ SH!!!

Anyway, I did not know you and your FWH used the same attorney. That is what we want to do. Initially H suggested that we agree on terms and just hire a one lawyer to do the paperwork so that we can end this amicably and also at the same time can save $$$. Then he started saying that he needs his own lawyer to properly represent himself. But again last time we talked about the process, H was still interested in saving $$$ by not fighting about every term.

I guess that is why I asked what I asked: if I go ahead and and contact a lawyer, H would think I am "controlling him" again. Maybe I would take a similar approach as OSXgirl and suggest H to give up a house by offering him something else. I will ask SH tomorrow how I should handle this.

Again, Mimi and everyone who has taken time to respond to me, all of your comments and advice are TRULY appreciated. I am LISTENING all the time. They are all wise advice. It's just hard sometimes (or many times??) to actually act on b/c I am such a CHICKEN!

You know, people posting here are very positive and I really admire that trait. I used to be a very forward-looking individual as well, but now am so pessimistic BIG TIME. It sucks...

H sent me an email this morning about our/his bills I gave to him last Sunday. He said he would pay half of our cell phone bills (I have been paying for them for four months now) and half of the outstanding bill for DS2's daycare.

I replied saying since I have paid for four months already, asked him to multiply the amount for the cell phone charge by four. I was going to wait until SH's session, but thought finace is finance, and I was not being nasty about it and H has to face the responsibility so I just replied. H was saying about his debt that he incurred due to his arrest and said "I always thought you should also pay for this (b/c in his mind I was the cause of his arrest!), so why don't you pay half of that". I did not reply to that specific question.

Did I handle it okay? Well I DON'T CARE ANYMORE!!! Why I keep walking on the egg shells when H keeps doing whatever pleases him and has no regard to my well-being!!! H is gone! H does not love me or even hates me, so why do I have to always worry how I should handle things and not to hurt his feelings??? I want to punch in his face!!!!

I just can't deal with H's coldness anymore. It beyond pain. H could not even kill bugs and now he is totally fine killing his wife! You all told me to "start focusing on myself and do things that make me feel happy, and also do things that would protect me and my son". But even if I do things for me and for my son, I cannot ignore the pain H causes me with his cold words and look. It's worse than arguing it seems.

I am not functioning for a long time. My work is piling up and I have to do something about it. Please give me some advice, other than contacting a lawyer (which I have an appointment with today) and a therapist (I have an appointment with SH today and scheduled an IC next week as well. I also have an appointment with a shrink next week - this week was completely booked), what can I do to be able to function? I can't find any hope in my future right now.

There is no MAGICAL SOLUTION.

Sorry.

I know (in my head).

I just got off the phone with SH. He suggested pretty much the same things you all have suggested - to seek for a legal protection at this point. He said it is sort of a modified Plan B.

But I feel so hopefull and asked him if he thinks there is any hope. He said if we did not have any children, it is almost an impossible situation, but we have a kid and that may help. I don't know. H obviously LOVES and MISSES DS2, but I don't know if it's strong enough to bring him back. I will go see a lawyer this afternoon.

Came back from the attorney's office. He thinks legal separation is a waste of time and money, and he won't do it. If I want a legal separation, he said I need to find someone else. Also he pointed out the good point - since I make more money than H and am paying for mortgage by myself, the longer I wait, the better off financially for H but worse off for me. If we go for the legal separation, I continue to build the equity but then have to give that away to H anyway.

Since I do not see any hope for our M and SH did not seem very hopeful for our situation either, I really think now I am just wasting my time and money. I think I am going to just file for D. If H faces the reality of what he really has to pay, that may make him want to back off, that was SH's opinion, so technically even the D process will surely wake H up.

SH did say that if the legal separation will not protect me and my son, I may have to go for a D.

I left messages to two more attorneys that I have met before. I will ask them if they are willing to do "legal separation" and if so, how much they would charge and also how they think they can protect me and my son financially.

My guess is, since H will be forced to pay more than what he is paying now, he would be motivated to file for D and get the asset division, since a legal separation will not do asset division. Also, if I file for D, I have more cards to play than legal separation (lump sum amount, visitation schedule, potential removal of the child, etc.), whereas if we are going to talk only about legal separation, then H will feel that he has to pay more while I will be sitting on the assets and holding onto our son. SO I am pretty sure H will not like that anyway. And even for me, the legal separation will not protect me and my son as much as D.

So what do I do? Have a lawyer send H the dissolution of marriage form to sign on? Or should I at least tell/warn H that I may have to seek a legal counselor since H is not willing to explore other option (saving our marriage)?

When I asked SH what I should tell H if he makes a fuss over me contacting a lawyer (which I am very sure he will!), he suggested that I tell H "I still believe that we can be happy together, but we have to be on the same page. Make no mistake. There is a solution for our marriage that has not been properly researhed. However since you are not interested in researching for the solution for our marriage and your demand is being unreasonable, you are forcing me to go seek a legal counsel".

This is good, but I guess will work only if I file for a legal separation rather than D.

Okay, I will have to think really hard for a few days. I want to do the legal separation, but at the same time I know I will lose $$$ in the end if we end up filing for D, and filing for D right away will protect me better. I just hope H is worth trying the separation thing first.

I will see what the other two lawyers I left messages with have to say about this as well.

I told SH that "I know if I have my lawyer contact H, he would call me 'see, you are so Japanese! Sneak attack like in Pearl Harbor' or something ridiculous", to that SH laughed and said "well then you can argue that H is being so Italian doing whatever sounds good at the moment". That's true, not that I will say that to him.

Osxgirl, I have a question for you: did you try to do the legal separation first, or did you or your FWXH filed for divorce?

My son may think it is my fault that H is not around, and everytime he cries asking for H and if I tell him H is working or something, DS2 starts hitting me "no Mama, bad, daddy is not working, he is coming soon!". Of course I tell him that H loves him but cannot be here and also not to hit his mother, but I can tell he thinks I am somehow enabling H to return home. This really hurts me.

I am very worried about his emotional scar. At this young age, how should I explain to DS2 that (1) it is not his fault that his daddy left home, (2) I am not trying to take his father away from him.

Sorry I hadn't jumped in earlier, MS. I haven't been on the boards for several days now. This week is VBS (vacation bible school) at my church, and it ends up being a busy week. Add to it that I've been fighting migraines for the past few days, and my on-line time has been limited.

First, to answer your direct question to me - No, I did not do legal separation first. But the best way to handle this depends on what state you are in, which is why we recommended talking to a lawyer.

In my state, they don't really have "legal separation" per se. I have seen a few people call the way I did things legal separation, but the state doesn't consider it that.

In my state (Maryland) you must be separated at least a year to get divorced. And separation there does not mean legal separation, it means physical separation. You cannot live in the same house. (You can get it sooner if filing based on infidelity, but that's very hard to prove, and it usually ends up being far easier to just wait out the year.)

During that time, however, you can do what is called a "marital settlement agreement." Doing that is what I think some people consider legal separation here. That is a document that basically divides up all the marital property, and sets all the terms for divorce (who's responsible for what debt; alimony, if any; child support, if any; visitation schedules, etc.) This can be done at any time, and as long as both parties agree and sign it, whatever is in the settlement agreement is legally binding. In fact, it's legally binding even if the parties involved DON'T eventually divorce. It is legally binding until both parties agree in writing to revoke it.

As my lawyer explained it, in this state, the settlement agreement IS the divorce; the actual divorce is just legal paperwork after the fact. But the settlement agreement determines everything that is important. How all that works out if you can't agree and end up going to court, I don't really know.

And, as I said, this all applies to the state where I live, but every state is a little different on these things.

You said you were worried that going for divorce doesn't match up with you telling WH that you want to work things out, and that you are just protecting yourself, that you would have to do legal separation only. Wrong. It goes back again to the fact that you can't control him. He's going to think whatever it is he wants to think about the whole mess. If you tell him that your actions are for protection of you and DS only, and he wants to believe that, filing for LS or filing for D won't make a bit of difference. And it won't make a bit of difference if he's not willing to listen either. I really don't see much distinction between the two, except Divorce will protect you far better.

SH is the one to listen to - he's been doing this a long time.

And through everything you've written, you're very concerned about the things people her, as well as SH, have recommended, worrying that they are things that will only drive him away further.

But the alternative is to continue doing what you have been doing. And, as Dr. Phil would say, "How's that working for you?" Obviously not well.

The beauty of what we've advised here, protecting yourself, working on yourself, and preparing to be alone, is not just that it can make you more attractive to your S again. If you do it right, it may....or may not. Because no one controls what he thinks or does but him. What it WILL do, however, is help you be strong and able to handle WHATEVER the situation brings. Working on yourself means that you may be more attractive to him again in the end. But even if it doesn't, working on yourself will give you what you need to get through without him. It will help you develop some healthy boundaries, which seems to be something you need.

Mimi's right - there is no magical solution. Even working on yourself, it takes a long time to get to where you feel you can cope. You just have to ride it out.

And definitely do see about the ADs. It's darn near impossible to work on yourself if you are clinically depressed. So get that checked out, get on them if you need to, then buckle in, because this is a very long ride.

MS - there is a thread over in Divorced/Divorcing that I think you should check out. It's:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;gonew=1#UNREAD

In particular, read CheckURHeart's last post. It says very succinctly and eloquently what all of us here have been trying to tell you. You can't control him or what he does, only you and what you do. You could do everythin perfectly and still find he doesn't want the marriage back. It happens.

But while you can't control how he reacts, you can control you. So you sorry about you, and don't worry about him. He's a big boy. He can take care of himself.

Thanks osxgirl. It is interesting that your state does not have legal separation - now I am thinking maybe my lawyer I met yesterday is from Maryland <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have been thinking about D or LS, and this is what I (so far...!!!) decided. I will ask different attorneys about LS and how much it can protect me (I know D protects us far better, but maybe if I can get a higher monthly payment from H for now, that is already an improvement). Then unless it really does not make any sense at all, I will try to do the LS. But I will put the time limit. Say, another 3 months or something.

Also I will ask if all the agreements we come up with for LS (child support, custody, visitation schedule) can be used as a ground for D, or if it will open up a whole another battle for D if H contests it. I am guessing we both have rights to change the agreement once we file for D, b/c it is a different story, but I want to know if LS papers will serve as a reasonable starting point even in the eyes of the judge. I just do not want to spend the same amount of time and money for the same agreement. We can give that kind of money to our son instead of someone who is already making a half million dollars.

Anyway, this is what I am thinking right now. One thing SH mentioned was that once you start the D process, it is very hard to stop b/c you become mentally ready for it. That is why I am thinking at least I will see if I can try LS first. I am scared of the thought but I know you all survived.

One thing that the lawyer I met on Tuesday said really hit me. "If the guy said he does not even want to pay the 20% of his net income to his child, that is a red flag, and you still want to be married to him?"

I thought about it too many times. The first time when H told me that the 20% is too much, that comment really devastated me b/c I did not think H would ever be that cheap on things like this, especially when he is the one leaving us.

Keeping this in mind, what should I do about picking a lawyer? I am torn. Should I go for a better attorney (very expensive) or a more reasonable one?

My thing is this: the expensive one did mention that the fact our state is a equitable state so it is not just 50/50 when it comes to asset division. Also he may be able to push for more than 20% when it comes to a child support (or we can negotiate - less asset, but more in child support, or vice versa). The more reasonable one seems to think (and all other lawyers pretty much said) even though it is an equitable state, my assets were mainly obtained during the course of our marriage and since I comingled my own assets I had prior to the marriage long time ago and cannot prove which part is mine, etc., the assets are going to be divided 50/50. Also because I am making more money, I cannot necessarily ask for additional money (e.g., 1/2 day care costs, 1/2 of medical costs, life insurance policy, etc.).

If the LS agreement will be used as a ground when we file for D, then I should get as much protection as possible so going for the expensive one (assuming he can get a more favorable terms for me). At the same time, going to a more reputable one for LS AND D mean a lot of $$$, and I am not sure if I can afford that, or in the end my savings will be gone and I cannot leave anything for my son.

What would you suggest? Based on your experience, how much difference in terms of getting a better deal would it make by getting a more reputable lawyer (the expensive one I am talking about was chosen to be #1 or #2 in the Chicago area for two years in a row).

I need your thoughts and advice and want to know your experience!!! Thank you.

I want to hear your opinios - after reading my story, do you think we have a chanve saving our marriage? I still have very small hope and big wish that H will remember his feelings he once had towards me and come back for good.

It may not be good for me to speculate, as I cannot control H. However, one of the reasons I am about to take some legal steps is to at least TRY to influence H's view on me. We can't control others, but we CAN influence. I do not want to make any mistakes but at the same time do not want to always be afraid of what might be the outcome, because I do have to protect myself and my son.

So please help me out - do you see any hope here? When someone decided that he SHOULD be selfish in order to "survive", would such twisted thinking change over time, or would it take something very big, some unexpected event to take place to freak him out?

Thanks for your input.

MS:

I can't believe this post. I really can't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Didn't you have a session with Steve Harley yesterday?

Do you think amateurs on here would know more than him?

Milk, if you want to help yourself, again, I suggest that you do what Steve Harley recommends. Believe and trust and him...

Of course, why would I think you would listen to me if you won't listen to him... DUH...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ok, let's handle the second question first. IS there any hope here? There's always hope. And I don't know how religious you are, but prayer can help a lot.

That being said, you have to be prepared that sometimes the answer to a prayer is "no." And since God gives us free will, sometimes a person (your WH) will choose to do what he wants rather than what God wants.

Again, I think you have the focus wrong here. You don't worry about whether or not you will be able to get your marriage back. You don't worry and adjust your actions based on how you THINK WH will respond to them. What you do is work on being the best person you can be. You leave the door open for WH, but you stand back and let him make the choice. You can't make him walk through it.

And you have to adjust your actions based on his. Whether or not the marriage might eventually be saved, right now he has told you that he is through. So that's how you have to act.... as long as you keep it in context of being the best person you can be.

So what does that mean? You have to make sure you and your child are taken care of. If he is abdicating that responsibility, then it is up to you to protect yourself and your child. That doesn't mean you have to get vicious with him. You just try to do what is fair. Don't let him take advantage, and don't become vindictive. He will probably accuse you of trying to take everything from him. That's when you simply say you are trying to do what is fair for you and your child, and that he forced the issue by making the choices he has.

Be open to reconciliation, but firm in getting what you need to be ok without him.

Now, as far as the lawyers... higest price does not always equal best. Choose the one you were comfortable with - the one who was best able to explain things in a way you could understand, the one who seemed to have time for you. Sometimes, getting the popular divorce attorney is a mistake - they can have so many cases that it becomes like an assembly line to them. Find the one with whom you can communicate, and who you feel has your best interests at heart.

And your best interests are definitely to work things out with WH to reconcile the marriage, and, failing that, to work things out with WH so the divorce case is settled out of court.

I read a little on the difference between divorce and legal separation in Illinois. I do see why some of the lawyers are directing you away from legal separation. It has all the expense and trouble of a divorce, except at the end you are not divorced. So it would end up costing more money in the end if you end up getting divorced after doing the legal separation. Also, I'm not sure about this, but from what I was reading, I would assume that even though you got things settled in the legal separation, some things could be back on the table for re-negotiation when/if you went for the divorce after that.

One question I would ask the lawyer is how the settlement agreement works - as I said before, in Maryland, the settlement agreement is THE biggest thing. Once that is signed, there's little left to do. When I first went to see the lawyer, my XH and I were still trying to reconcile, but I had become very doubtful he was sincerely trying. I told my laywer this. She explained the process to me, and told me that the settlement agreement could be done at any time, and did not mean we had to follow through with divorce. She said that once we both agreed and signed it, and it was filed with the court, it was binding and would be incorporated into the divorce. And that if we didn't divorce, it would remain in effect until we both revoked it in writing.

The first time I went to see her, she sent me home and said I wasn't ready yet. I was still trying to reconcile, and she said to come back and see her when/if I was ready to go forward. Just talking to me, she knew that we weren't at that point yet. To me, that's a sign of a pretty good lawyer.

When I went back a few months later, she said that given the circumstances, the best thing to do would be to get a settlement agreement in place, even if we did continue to try and reconcile. She said that since he had moved out of the house already, it was a good idea to have the settlement agreement no matter what. That if he did come back and we tried to work it out again, the agreement would be protection for me - in other words, it would ensure that he wasn't just coming back and acting like he wanted to fix things in order to try and get back in the house and take everything, or get money out of me, or anything like that. She told me that she advised in cases like mine that we get a settlement agreement in place as soon as we could, and that if he did come back, to keep the agreement in place a while anyway to protect myself.

The reason I tell you all this about my situation is that it sounds to me like you are in much the same circumstances. Although you really want to save the marriage, everything looks like he is not even willing to try, and you can't force him. So you want to leave the door open while still protecting yourself.

The way I handled it - I went forward with getting the settlement agreement. I was keeping the condo with no payment to him, so I re-financed in my name only, and got him to sign a quitclaim deed on the condo. (Acutally, I did it the other way around - I wasn't about to let him off the hook on the financial obligation until he gave me the quitclaim so I knew he would no longer have any claim on the condo. I couldn't trust him, and I knew it.) Once all those details were taken care of - who got what, all the paperwork done, the settlement agreement signed, etc., I stopped. He assumed I would do all the work for the divorce too. I didn't. When he finally realized I wasn't doing anything, he asked when I planned to get the divorce taken care of. My response? I didn't want the divorce, and I have no intention of initiating it. If you want it, you get it done.

A big part of that for me was that my XH had really tried to make me the responsible one all the way along - two days before he told me about the affair, he sent me an e-mail asking how I felt about having kids, because he knew I'd always said I didn't want any, but he had changed his mind, and he really wanted kids. I think he did that figuring I would say I didn't want them, and then he would have a good reason to walk out (without admitting the affair.) Imagine his surprise when I said I had changed my mind too.

He called begging to come home two days after he walked out. I told him we could work on restoring our marriage, but he couldn't come home. I was trying to protect myself by that point - he had already as much as told me he had initially planned to leave at Christmastime. Was trying to get me to go visit my family for Christmas alone, instead of both going like we were supposed to, and then he was going to move out while I was gone. I messed up those plans too, because I said if we were trying to work on our marriage, there was no way we should be separate for the holidays, and that either we both went or both stayed. I have no doubt that if I had gone without him he would have really cleaned out the house in the week that I would have been gone.

So, the bottom line is, I tried very hard to recover our marriage, but I put boundaries in place, and protected myself in the process. He wasn't willing to respect those boundaries... which was really a problem through our whole marriage. This was just the first time I'd actually enforced them. Maybe if I'd done it sooner, we would have had a better chance.

But regardless of how we got to that point, in the end, he had become someone who was willing to harm me (emotionally and financially, not physically!) I needed to protect myself. And I did so, but still left the door open for reconciliation in case the man I originally married showed his face again. He didn't.

I hope some of that helps. I know it can seem contradictory on this site - you'll see some people encouraged over and over to keep working on the marriage, and others get told almost right away to find a lawyer and move on. A lot of that has to do with what we see in the description of the WS. When the WS seems completely unmotivated to do any work to recover the marriage, or is, as in my case, actively putting out personals and looking for someone (anyone!) else, there just isn't much hope there. It's a mindset that is hard to get past. It can be done, but you need to prepare for the worst.

Mimi - I'm glad you said that!!!!

I had completely forgotten she had a SH session scheduled.

So what did he say, MS? Mimi is right - I have no doubt he has given you some good advice.