It's Friday, and I was feeling so lonely - my best friend is still out of town, and some of the friends I wanted to get together turned out to be busy. But at the last minute, I found someone to spend Friday evening with (with DS2, of course)! Hew...

I wrote a letter to H. I know you all have suggested that I should not tell him that I love him anymore. I have done so for three weeks now. It seems H is more distant.

I want to send the letter out either this weekend or give it to him in person when he comes around on Sat to pick DS2 up. I did not really talk about our relationship in my letter though. I talked about DS2 and our dog, and just towards the end, I said "we love you".

Is there any BIG argument that I should not give this to H? I know OSXgirl (I haven't heard from you in a while - I was searching your postings too but couldn't find them - how are you??) told me I should let H know that I have moved on. I see the logic there too. It's just that it does not seem to be working. I have kept myself and son pretty busy, minimized my contact with him, etc., but it seems it only gave H a great releaf that he does not have to worry about me anymore.

Suggestions, comments, etc. are greatly appreciated.

Hi MS. I'm doing fine - just a little busy is all...

Well, IMHO, writing letters is a fine idea. It's the SENDING them that's bad. Let's look at it this way. If he really has moved on, and there is no chance of salvaging the relationship, the only thing the letters do is annoy him. They won't make a difference either way.

Now, let's say that somewhere in there, there is a chance. What we know about situations like this is - as long as you are pursuing, he doesn't have the opportunity to miss you. You've already done the "declaring your love for him" thing a number of times, and how has it helped? It hasn't at all, and has just made him more annoyed at you.

They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. You've sent him letters telling him how much you love him and miss him, you've told him that on the phone, and it hasn't made things any better. So why do you think doing it one more time will help? It won't.

That's why we've advocated going dark as much as possible with a child in the picture. That means not talking to him at all except where it concerns your son. And even then, it should be the bare minimum. Only about dates and times each of you will have him.

Your WH needs a taste of what it will really be like if you are no longer in his life. That won't happen if you send letters, or talk to him, or have contact at all. That includes using DS as a reason to talk. I would move interchanges to e-mail only as much as you possibly can, and limit everything in those e-mails to only what is absolutely necesssary to coordinate schedules.

I know it seems like forever that you've been doing this. But it's only been a few days. And you haven't done it very well - you do still talk to him and in little ways let him know that you still love him and the door is open to him. I can't help but think he's at the stage where that is unimportant to him, because he thinks there's no way he could possibly lose that. That you will ALWAYS be an option if he ever decides to come back. That he can do or say anything, because you will always be there as a fallback position.

Why should he put any effort into fixing things. He doesn't need to. He can go off an be free, and do whatever he wants, secure in the knowledge that if he really needs you, you'll still be sitting there waiting for him, no matter what he has done.

Hi Osxgirl, good to hear from you! I was wondering if you have been sick.

I know exactly what you are saying. His family thinks in the same line. Sometimes I feel the same, but the reason I again wanted to send him my letters is b/c he is getting colder and colder and really does not have any feelings left for me. I thought if I write to him with warm words, as long as he is still alone and lonely, maybe at least he would not mind them. He said he has a lot of anger and that is why he cannot come back. Wouldn't it be possible, then if I keep writing his anger may decrease? That is how I was thinking.

Also, everytime we talk about money (which is not often, and last Wednesday for the first time I initiated the money talk with him), H gets really upset, and I want to send him a signal that I am doing what I have to do to protect myself, but that does not mean I do not love him anymore. In another words, I want H to know that I am not doing this to retaliate.

H is sick today. I sent him a couple of emails on Thursday but did not hear back from him, and thought he was probably contacting his lawyer. It turned out (even though he might still be in contact with his lawyer), H left me a message on Friday on my home phone that he had been sick and stayed home on Thursday and Friday. H said "I hope I will get better tomorrow so that I can pick up DS2, but I am not sure. Also I do not want to give it to him. I will let you know".

So I called him back at his apartment. He did not answer so I left a message "Hi, I just got your message. Are you okay? Do you want me to come over? Well, here is DS2. I thought you might feel a bit better if you hear his voice. <DS2 saying hi Papa, get better, I love you, Bye>. Well I will talk to you later. Drink a lot of liquid okay".

Then I called at his cell. Again he did not answer so I left a message "I am not sure you might be at the doctor's office. Just wanted to let you know that I got your message and take care".

Then I got really worried. He is not answering his phones at all. What if it is really bad and he can't even answer the phone?

So I called his home phone again. This time H answered. So I said "oh thank God you are okay. I was worried that you were not answering the phone" H said "I was resting". "Okay, so how are you feeling? Do you have a fever?" "I don't know, I have been sick. I threw up yesterday" "Are you drinking enough? Do you have chiken soup?" "I have yogurt" "Oh H, when you have upset stomach you can't take dairy product" "It seems to be working though" "Hmm, do you want me to come over?" "No, that is okay thanks" "well just let me know how you feel tomorrow, okay" "okay thanks MILK"

This morning I called H again. "Good morning, how are you feeling now?" "I am still out of it. I threw up again last night" "Again?" "Yeah" "Well H, you have a bug" "I think so" "Keep drinking and do you have crackers?" "Yeah, I have crackers. Anyway, I can't take care of DS2 today" "Understand - okay, take care, check your temparature. If that stays high or keeps going up, call your doctor. And if you really need help, let me know okay?" "okay" "If you are really sick, don't hesitate to call your doctor" "okay"

So H is not coming to pick up DS2 tonight. H has no one to take care of him. Yet he wants to be alone. See, he hates his life with me so much that even if he is alone, he chooses to suffer alone. That is why if I keep writing him, I thought his closed heart might open up a bit eventually, realizing that I was not so bad or unhealthy for him.

At the same time, he hasn't given me his check and I have HUGE bills to pay, so I had to send him another email (which he won't see until Monday) asking for his check. If he starts playing this delaying game, I really have to have lawyer to follow it up. But I really want to avoid that. Because even if we ended up D, we are still parents of DS2 and have to continue our dialogue for the next 15 years, well including DS2's college, graduation, wedding, etc., basically H and I would have to communicate for the rest of our lives. So I really do not want to get us in an ugly legal battle. So I want H to be responsible on his own. And for the most part, he is.

There is no perfect way to do this. If I remind H of the financial issues, he gets very defensive and upset. H thinks I am being evil and cheap talking about money. That is why I tried not to bring up the money issue for the past three months!! But now my mortgage has gone up, DS2's daycare rates have gone up, and H will be soon two weeks behind in terms of his payment to me, so I HAVE TO talk about money. So sad. But that is the fact of life. But everytime I talk about money, I KNOW I am pushing H away further and further away.

Because in the end, once 'love' is gone, people wind up caring about only one thing - money. I wanted to believe H was not that kind of person, and I still believe that H's motivation is not entirely money, but I know it is playing a big role in his life right now. He wants to get a lump sum so that he can make a down payment on a condo or something to start his life again. His FRESH life without me. He one time said that the reason he was with me for a long time was because I make a good money and we can live in a nice house, etc. I was greatly disappointed when I heard that. If that is true, then H in the end does care about money. If H said that to purposely hurt my feelings, then that is nasty too.

So does everyone agree with OSXgirl in terms of my sending letters to H is a bad idea? One of the ladies who has a son who has addiction problem I met at my church said the same thing - that writing letters is okay but sending them to H might not be a good idea. But that is b/c she feels that the whole problem is largely driven by H's addiction problem. See, that is the part I am not 100% convinced. Sometimes I feel that yes, if H was a healthy individual, even if we had those marital issues, maybe we are not where we are now. Then again sometimes I feel that maybe with or without H's addictions, our issues would have led to this point. When I feel that way, I get the urge to send love letters to H.

Also if you can read one of my replies to EAV1967, you will see why I want to write letters to H. H's best friend from college used that strategy and his wife eventually came back to him. He is the one who suggested that I keep writing to H.

OSXgirl, I can tell you are a very smart and logical person, and I like your suggestions. I agree with what you said too many times. But then again there are moments where I cannot be 100% convinced of what I am doing (or NOT doing) b/c of the suggestion I got from H's friend. He knows H pretty well. Any other opinions? What would a guy feel if he keeps receiving letters from his wife that he is trying to get rid of? Would he be annoyed or may think "I thought she was really mean and selfish and unloving but maybe that is not true"?? Do you all agree with OSXgirl? Am I being too clingy?

you know milk,

i've given alot of thought to your suggestion.

when i discovered that my husband had cheated the first time,i was having alot of trouble forgiving him.

he gave me the most wonderful cards...and he wrote caring, kind, thoughtful letters. most impressive were the poems he wrote-my favorite was"the ABC's of loving you" where he found something that started with every letter of the alphabet

i wish I had done the right things then....but i was so hurt, so angy, so jealous...i didn't know i was doing more harm to our relationship by not forgiving and by not rebuilding his love bank

i spend alot of time re-reading all of those things-crying and thinking...he really did love me

wouldn't it be the same for him (and your husband?)

after he left-i did leaehim one letter-he said thank you...i didn't know you felt this way.

i'm all for it...i think it can earn some love deposits for admiration and words of affection

(if anyone has reasons why it's not a good idea...please share for both of us)

Thanks Eav. I know, the more I read your story, the more it seems our H's are acting and feeling the same way.

I really would like other people's opinions here. For one thing, I can see OSXgirl's point - "They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. You've sent him letters telling him how much you love him and miss him, you've told him that on the phone, and it hasn't made things any better. So why do you think doing it one more time will help? It won't."

This is an excellent point. At the same time, I see what you are saying Eav, too. Because in a way, my H wanted to work on our issues in his own way too, but I just could not trust him. And looking back, I feel I should have done a better job dealing with the situation. Would my H feel the same way if I keep trying?

Here is the question: do you think We, both Eav and I are feeling this way now because it seems our H's are not available anymore? Then actually what OSXgirl and other people including Mimi have said - leaving H alone and continuing to do what WE need to do MAY bring our spouses back?

Also like I mentioned in my reply to Eav's thread, H's best friend kept writing letters describing his feelings to his wife while they were separated and going through the D process, and after one year when the process is 3/4 done, she decided to come back. Now, should we interpret this as his strategy of continuing on telling how much he loves her worked? Or, because while they were separated, he had a casual girlfriend and felt he would be okay with or without his wife in the end, do you think his wife sensed it and started to miss her husband and returned to him?

I really see what OSXgirl and others are saying about "tough love". I guess the reason I am still unsure is because of this guy's success story. He became tough with her, but at the same time he kept writing to his wife. Why did it work? Which component really worked? I think both Eav and I are AFRAID that if it was even PARTLY sending the letters that in the end won his wife's heart back, becoming cold towards our H's who seem already distant from us can only push them away.

How about writing about something else mainly and not talking about "love"? Maybe I can talk about how good weekends I and DS2 had, for example, or with my friends, then H would know in a way I have moved on and started to enjoy my own life. But I am not being cold towards him. What do you think?

Came back from visiting my friends with DS2. He had a good time playing with 8 more kids and one baby. On our way back, we got stuck in a traffic but then realied we were only three cars away from a park entrance where they were having fire works. In our comfortable SUV, we could watch the entire fire works right in front of us. There were a lot of people sitting on the grass uncomfortably. We were so lucky! So the ending of our day was pretty nice. Hopefully tomorrow is another decent day.

I am feeling quite vulnerable today. I could not go to the divorce recovery support group meeting this morning. H said he was still sick and could not take care of DS2 this weekend, and since DS2 did not sleep well last night because he had stuffy nose throughout the night, I did not wake him up too early to go to church.

And H called this morning. I called him last night at his cell while we were driving home just to see how he was doing. H did not answer so I just left a short message "hi, just calling to see how you are feeling. If you are really sick and need my help just let me know". That is what I said.

I did not answer my phone this morning - somehow I had a bad feeling about that. Later I checked the message - H said "hi, I left my cell phone in the car yesterday and this morning when I went to the car to get my nicotine gum I noticed you have called. I am doing better but still have a sore throat, and really don't want to give this to DS2, so it is better if I get him next weekend".

H repeatedly yesterday said "I am sorry but I can't take care of DS2, I am still weak". And I was wondering why is he apologizing? H knows I like keeping DS2. Then what about that thing about leaving the cell phone in the car stuff? Why did H has to excuse himself? H often ignore my calls and does not even bother returning my calls. H does not excuse such times.

I think I mentioned in my thread before, but H has always been a liar. And when he lies, he mumbles and starts explaining things a lot. Well, this sounds just like it. If he truely forgot his phone in the car or he was simply too sick to answer the phone, there was no need for him to excuse himself. I think all of the sudden a date came up on Saturday night and that is why H did not want to have DS2. H was out last night with the girl that is why he did not answer my call, and this morning had to call me back to lie. This makes a perfect sense.

So I called this morning. Because how dare him to lie and priortize whoever the woman is over his own son! I said "so you went out, huh". H immediately said "no, MILK, why on earth do I go out when I was sick? I was sick and also was on the phone alot with my friend from the SA group". His answer proves H WAS out. If he was home, he would have simply said "what? why do you say that? no I was sick". I did not ask about him being on the phone either. Why did he have to excuse himself?

This man just lies, lies, and lies. I though DS2 was very important to him. And H has no shame to lie in front of his son. So sad. H used to lie about him smoking pot, and every time I asked him "are you telling the truth that you have stopped smoking?" H said "I swear on my dead mother's grave, that I am not smoking pot". H must have used her OWN mother's name for thousand times! But he was lying all the time. He was smoking.

So I KNOW this time the way he acted H was lying. H uses his mother and his son to get his way. I am so disguessed that he is my son't father.

But here is my codependency's nature. I still want to believe what H said was true, that he was sick and left his phone in the car and thus could not answer my call and also was on the phone with his friend last night. Sounds just too fishy but I kind of want to believe b/c otherwise I get hurt too much.

I wish I could go back in time when we met in college and bring H to a shrink back then to really assess him. Why can he lie so easily and with no sense of guilt? I mean, I can't lie b/c I would feel too bad. H keeps lying, and apparently even told people at the SA meeting that he is an compulsive liar. How does he sleep at night? And he says a prayer before he eats. What kind of God is he believing in??

Yep, I think you nailed that correctly. When you buckle up and start to realize that your WH is WHO HE IS, then perhaps you won't be so torn up after yet another lie he has told you.

Keep "doing (thinking)" what you have always "done"......keep getting what you have always "got/get". It is actually pretty simple Milk.

Yopur wayward H is who he is, so I think he sleeps "just fine" at night. I have no doubt about that. The issue is NOT him or his actions.......IT IS YOU !!!!!

Best of luck,

SM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I AGREE WITH YOU!!

SM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Name Reduction at the time of your ANNIVERSARY?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

milk,
you know i don't understand all of this stuff but it seems to me that accusing him of lying without any real proof is love busting.

if you're in plan A...isn't the idea to avoid these at all costs?

if you're in plan B...you shouldn't be calling even if he is sick right?

what plan are you using?

I replied last night but realised for some reason my reply did not get posted.

Thank you Lemonman, Mimi and Eav. So Lemonman and Mimi, you both think my H can lie to get what he wants without feeling any sense of guilt and can sleep just fine at night, huh. I hope he was not lying but there is no way for me to find out. Well besides it probably will not make any difference as far as H's actions and thinking go.

And thanks Eav. You are right, I need to stick to the plan. I am going to see the new therapist on Tuesday and hopefully that will help me see things more clearly.

I keep going back and forth with two ideas: yes, H has addictions and his personal issues have GREATLY impacted our relationship, in that case MB's normal Plan A/B will not work; or maybe really the fact I did not show him my love strongly enough in the past has led us to this point, in that case I really want to make up for it.

Thus I end up being in a limbo. And OSXgirl pointed out that it is understandable but not helpful. I understand that in my head but since I cannot be 100% convinced that H's addictions are the main cause, when I try Plan B, I ended up regretting "oh, maybe that was a bad move".

Do you really think it is H's addictions that are causing this or more of our common marital problems?

milk,

you and i have the same struggle going on.

i say...make love bank deposits. i think this is our only hope!!

I don't know how I can make deposits at this point.

but you did...contacting him when he was sick, offerring to care for him, being undestanding. These count doen't they?

But I screwed up the opportunity or made a lot of withdrawals by implying to H that he was lying to me yesterday.

I called H up this morning just to see how he was doing, but could tell he was pissed and not as nearly as nice as when we spoke on Saturday.

I know it's my fault, but I blew it. It was a no hope situation before and now it is an absolutely negative hope situation. I have been crying the whole morning. I hate that I am so emotionally explosive. When I get mad I say/do things immediately. That is what H is trying to get away from. But it's too late. I know that now but H is gone.

didn't you say he was not seeing anyone else? (if i remember correctly from your post)

so in my eyes-there is still hope for you. you have the history and you have your son.

here is some info from another save your marraige site i'm on (it also referrs to dr. harley's theory's)


"There are three states of what we call romantic love in our society. They are all designed to keep the human race alive and genetically healthy on the planet. They can occur simultaneously, one can lead to another, or they can happen completely independently. With the exception of one (which I'll talk about in a sec) they can be felt for more than one person at a time.

These three states create emotional feelings that are driven by the chemicals that occur in the brain. Those chemicals make us feel something towards the person who triggered them - and those feelings are what we call love.

The first is lust - this is the drive that makes us make babies. This keeps the human race going. I think we all get what this one is.

The second is romantic love - the feeling that is characterized by the need to be with someone or talk to them all the time. It is an obsessive state - when we can't stop thinking about the other person. This is the state that can only be felt for one person at a time.

Romantic love lasts for about 3 years (without intervention).

The third stage is attachment. This is the deep contentment, warm, connected, feelings we have for each other. This stage lasts for 20+ years and is designed to keep parents together through the late childhood and teenage years -

What happens in an affair is that the romantic drive is triggered and the feelings are so intense that they overwhelm and outweigh the feelings of attachment. This is why people having affairs almost without fail say, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you..." They are comparing the intensity of the chemically driven obsession with the warm and loving attachment they have for their mate.

But attachment is the reason they can't simply walk away from the marriage. Attachment - as its name implies - goes very deep. Lust we can destroy - we all know that ! Romantic passion - ditto . But attachment - that's another thing entirely. Attachment is forever.

That's why old lovers pose the greatest danger to a marriage and why it is so crucial that affair partners permanently end all contact. Attachment will keep open a pathway to lust and romantic love and be a threat to the marriage.

How to get over a lover? End all contact. Let the chemicals clear out of the brain. And then replace them with chemistry triggered by someone else - hopefully a spouse.

The other thing to consider is that an affair is new and exciting. We can't fully recreate that novelty with our mate. But we can do things to trigger the same types of brain chemistry and therefore those feelings - if we're willing to do the work.

Romantic love - the obsessive-can't-think-can't-work feeling is not possible to sustain 24/7 long term. It's too metabolically expensive. We can trigger it in bursts and we can be deeply in love and fulfilled with feelings of attachment."


don't you see milk...your husband is attached to you.

you need to work on AVOIDING LOVE BUSTERS...you can't afford any right now (like me)

and you need to make love deposits-what are his emotional needs that you can meet with the limited contact you have?

come on milk...don't give up...i need someone to hang in there with me!! love IS worth fighting for!!

another bit of information from that site:

"dealing with infidelity – this idea of information being available to us only in the state in which we experience it explains the re-writing of marital history in an affair. When a person is in love with someone else s/he can’t access the memory of being in love with the spouse. When s/he is angry and resentful – and feeling guilty – s/he is in a devalued place and will have a very difficult time recalling the good times –the place of value. This is why when we’re in love with someone we can’t imagine not being so – and as soon as we’re no longer in love with that person we can’t imagine that we ever were or that we ever would be again."

so i'm asking her...how do we help them to remember and rebuild those feelings and imagine that they CAN love us again?

Thanks Eav, my fellow soldier -;

As far as I know, H does not have a serious girlfriend yet. H's weekends seem to be too open to be in a honeymoon period.

But it does not mean anything, because H wants to move on with his life REGARDLESS. H wants to move away from me!

I used to think, at the beginning, that at least H was still very attached to me and would not be able to separate from me. But H was able to move out three months ago, and now that he is used to live alone, I think this living alone without me is becoming a norm to him.

Sure he may feel lonely from time to time, but what incentive does he have to return to me? I haven't done a good job depositing love units at all. So H has two choices: being lonely but having freedom; or having a cranky wife at home who makes his life miserable. Well I hope he will choose the latter!!! LOL

I really think I need to learn how to curb my emotional outburst. It is just that I have been on the verge of losing my family for so long that even a tiny little thing seems to affect me greatly and I can snap, as if I am going to lose myself.

I listed what I believe my H's ENs are in several postings earlier, but they are:

Affection,
Sexual Fulfillment,
Physical Attractiveness,
Recreational Companionship, and
Honesty and Openness or Admiration.

I sucked at Affection, SF,and RC. Well as for RC, I always wanted to go out and do things as a couple or as a family, but often H preferred staying home, so that is not really my fault, but the bottom line is that we really did not do much to have fun together.

H's love bank is not even open. You can rob a bank even if the bank is closed, but I don't know how to make deposits when the door is closed!

What can I do to help H potentially associate ME with something positive?

One of the therapists I met said that if H has felt that he was in a prison, then the more I try to bring him back, the harder he will fight. And H DID used the words "prinson", "trapped", "stuck", etc. So that is how he felt and wants to escape.

Again, how can I even try to make deposits with someone whose bank account does not even exist because he in on a run! Aaaaagh, can someone PLEASE come up with a pill that I can sneakly put in H's coffee that can help him remember his love towards me??

I have been making a lot of stupid mistakes at work for the past 8 months (= as long as the whole thing is going!). I cannot afford losing my job! I am ruing my life as well as my son' life as a result..... HELP!!!! I can't focus!

You complain but won't listen to me. I keep trying...

When I was in your same position, I took ADs in order to be able to function at my job.

Are you taking the medicine that was prescribed for you?