you're not asking me i hope cause i don't believe that it is written in stone yet that it is over.

my husband is also very happy and send e-mails and makes positive phone calls when he has one of our boys (the four legged ones)

but this is a connection that they have to us...WE are the people who can share the joy they feel with your son and my dogs because they are a part of US (together) no-one els has that with them!!

that's something!

and my husband does not appear to be noticing the comments i am maing about the 180 things but just think-we try not to react when they say things but later we think about it and react.

ex: I was secretly hurt that H excluded Friday night b/c that indicates he has "dates".

but you didn't react so that he would notice did you?? but you're thinking about it now right?

maybe that's what they are doing with our information.

we don't know so i say...keep giving the information just in case. what can it hurt.

do you have anything better to do with your time right now, when you still love him, than trying what ever you can to get him back?

I know i don't.

Well I have lots of things I should be doing instead of obsessing over H. For one thing, I have to PERFORM! I have been making a lot of stupid errors b/c I just can't focus. My job is a very performance oriented (I am in finance) and I cannot mess it up. My heart is not in it, but it is important and I really should not be spending this much time posting here!!!!!!!!!!! But as you well know Eav, venting helps and exchanging ideas and getting support here is also a life support for me. Oh, today by the way I intend to go to another bookstore (the third one!) to see if the book OSXgirl recommended.

I am planning on keeping myself busy. That is what I have been doing...

Reading MF4M's posting made me really think - my H kept telling me to move on with my life and how he hates seeing me getting hurt. H does not want to feel guilty. If I act as if I have moved on, H will only feel releaved, instead of wanting me back. I know each situation is different and for some 180 and Plan B work, but I reall think for my detached husband, they will only make things easy for him.

It should piss you off too. Why is your WH seeking validation from a 2 year old?? Why doesn't he tell his son how much he loves HIM. It ticks me off when I hear my STBXWW trying to get DS8 to say things he would rather not say and has no control over. Obviously it's a different situation with a 2 year old, but it's still an adult trying to get a child to make them feel better! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Who's the child and who's the adult? The adults are supposed to be protecting and nurturing the children. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



It's easier to isolate yourself from a society that tells you that you're making yourself unhappy and that your behavior is destructive. You can't do anything about that. You can be a lighthouse as others have surely described.



Unfortunately I think that men tend to do it more, but women certainly have the same capacity to run away from people who love them. I can IMMEDIATELY think of four FINE men whose wives left them. Some of them took the kids along to apparently make themselves feel better. Others needed medication because they were bipolar or depressed. The bottom line is the people that sometimes when people leave, they have something that blocks them from having a healthy relationship with another person.

Your husband sought pornography to make himself happy when he had perfectly beautiful wife who had a son with him. Then he found a lovely young girl at church that got him excited in some way. My WW found a nice 19 year old boy to have an affair with. He apparently had some of the things my WW needed to feed her passion or insecurity.

Plan A is about you. Be happy with your son. Have fun with your friends. Tell your WH what he's missing when he calls. Lure him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> If he doesn't want to talk to you, cheerfully get your son for him. Send him digital photos of you two having a good time. You two are better than any pornographic material. Not wanting to speak to you may not be about you. It might be about him not wanting to face his awful decision to abandon his wife and son.

that could be true!

my husband is aslotelling me to move on and asking me to stop wanting him to reconsider as it makes him "have to keep hurting me by telling me no"

it makes you wonder:
-if feeling bad because he is hurting me is the only feeling he has towards me right now-how can i use this for my benefit
-would looking like i'm moving on just make him feel relief therfore taking away the only feeling left
-would plan B still be the way to show that he does really have feelings for me he is not aware he has or would it just be "out of site, out of mind, out of marraige"
-would continuing to use plan A be my best chance to rebuild his feelings and make him continue to care that he is hurting me?

anyway...these are the things i wonder everyday milk
-

Excellent detective work, but stick to the facts. Don't over analyze. You don't know who it was. Could have been a guy from his SA classes.



I think if you've read His Needs Her Needs, or surviving an Affair, you'll have a pretty good idea. You may or may not be ready yet, but another book by Dr. Dobson called "Love Must be Tough" may be helpful for you. I went through and highlighted a lot of what applied to me.

Whether there's another "woman" or not. There's the fantasies of the women in the pornography, and there's the fantasy of the young girl he liked. Neither of these fantasies is real. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I'm a little late about the what to do. He should believe you're having a great time and that life is going on without him. Invite him to join in your fun..... or not. Make it his choice. Your marriage should not be a cage, it should be a sanctuary. I've used this analogy before. You need to be Grace Kelly (actress) in the movie Rear Window. That is Plan A. Be energetic, attractive, desireable.


Yes you can.



Warning Will Robinson!! Why isn't he with his wife and kids in Europe??? Why is he taking an attractive, distraught woman out by himself??? In church settings, men and women don't go out by themselves to ensure there's no temptation of inappropriate behavior. You don't want to compound your problems. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Take a third person along and have a good time. Make sure your friend's wife knows about it. It's amazing how many affairs start between best friends!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Sometimes best friends even get married..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Sleepless. I have read your postings and KNOW that there are men out ther who DO care about the marriage vows and trying to keep the family together, which is great to know. It is just I feel working on men's emotions seems more difficult than working on women's emotions , simply b/c IN GENERAL, we are a lot more emotional in the first place. I can't imagine living away from my son, for example. I don't know how H manages to live without seeing his son for days.

True, it is pretty pathetic that H needs validation from a two-year-old. Again it shows H's low self-esteem. It was like that throughout our M. H was afraid (unless it was an illusion and H's fears in reality were coming from something else instead) that I would leave him for a "better man", meaning a more successful guy. The reason for this is I work with those guys who make millions of dollars. H was always asking me if those I work closely with and travel with are married. If they are not, even though I would tell H "but it doesn't matter, don't worry about it" he would tell me "don't fall in love with him, okay". I used to laugh at such comment. One of my bosses I worked for still calls from time to time, just to chat with me. I met his wife and two boys and as far as I am concerned, he treats me like his daughter. H never liked that I received calls from him. He said several times "you must have slept with him, otherwise why is he still calling you?". And I of course laughed and said "of course not! He probably feels that I am like his daughter". Anyway, H has always been very insecure about "love".

That is why I said H's question to DS2 makes me very sad. He is doing this AGAIN, except this time with his son instead of with me.

"Send him digital photos of you two having a good time. You two are better than any pornographic material. Not wanting to speak to you may not be about you."

Thank you for your warm words Sleepless. I did send him a couple of pictures of us a while back, that is when I also forwarded the "love" poem I received from one of my girlfriends, and his reaction was "please stop sending me those crazy emails, you are making me worse". I am not sure if he was referring to my pictures, it might be about the email, but since then I stopped sending him pictures as well.

As for the SA counseling, as I mentioned in my posting this morning, it looks like H is still doing it. That is a piece of good news, as his counselor DOES NOT recommend H to date now, and also has told H that the reason H fell for this young girl was simply b/c H was replacing his pornography with her. His counselor also told him that divorce is not the solution for H's problems. Having said that, H gets a lot of support from other SA's he meets through this group counseling, and they are (as can be easily imagined) ALL divorced/separated. So H has become numb emotionally about divorcing, that is for sure. So that part is a side effect of the SA counseling but I think still overall, H should continue his counseling to recognize that he has personal issues.

Eav, I wonder about all of those question you listed every day too. Unfortunately I don't know the answer.

I am trying really hard to remember those feelings when I was not interested in but the other party kept pushing me - how annoying it was! I remember I was thinking "how can I turn him down without really hurting his feelings?" b/c I do not want to be a b**** saying flat out NO. If that is what is going through H's mind, there is nothing I can do. The more I try, I would only irritate him.

But at the same time, the situation is VERY different. I am talking about those guys who just wanted to date and pursued me, or I might have had some relationship with them but obviously none of those relationships were NEARLY as serious as the one I have with H. I was not married to them, never had a child with them, and never gone through so many experiences in life with them. So of course as a BS, I would feel furious.... how can H get annoyed as if I am only his casual girlfriend of three months or something!

I need to keep trying to enjoy my life without H......

He's YOUR HUSBAND!! You both made committments to each other. You don't give up without a fight. Next!

All of this work isn't just to reconcile. It's to let you know you made a good attempt at saving your marriage. It's about improving yourself. None of us are perfect. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> There's no need to rush to divorce. That's what conventional society tells us. Marriage isn't anything. Just start over again. My WW thinks Sex in the City explains women perfectly. Yikes!



That will get you every time. Don't be so proud. Balance your confidence with humility and you will be much happier. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />




Hmm. STBXWW used DS8's passport to abduct him out of the country since she is on assignment in Europe. You need a passport to go on a cruise, or Canada or Mexico.....



Hmm. Same conversation I had with my WW about her XBF from before we were married. She holds fantasies of men very dear. Liked to compare me to fantasy man all the time. He's a good looking guy, but HEY! I'm wonderful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



I agree with the first part, but the second statement makes me nervous. Sounds like she's all about revenge and screwing the other guy before he screws you. You can protect yourself and take the high road.

Wait until the end of the month. That's fine. Contact a lawyer to talk to them about the process. That's OK too. Marriage and divorce aren't things you rush.

It was a beautiful weekend around Lake Michigan here. I'm heading back to Seattle tonight. Find things you enjoy. Baseball games are great fun. The Sox are doing great! Spend time with friends. Tell them you don't want their advice, they're emotionally prejudice. I had to tell my parents and a couple of friends that.

Go on a road trip with DS2 and see some things. Go to the zoo. You sound like a very busy high energy woman. Hit the brakes and take some time. You say you've been reading the Bible. That's good too. Stick to the New Testament for now. Mathew and John are good.

Your husband's behavior isn't Christian. My STBXWW started asking WWJD in her E-Mails. I know what he would do. She has no idea.

MS (and I think a lot of this may apply to you too EAV) -

You are still bouncing. Up and down. You need to stop. That's why the plans are there. You are supposed to pick a plan and stick with it. Though there's no guarantee any plan you follow will recover the marriage, you can be pretty certain that bouncing around without a plan will not only not help, but will HURT your efforts.

If I had to make a guess, I would say a big part of the reason you are starting to see no reaction from your WH is that he is afraid to have any sort of reaction around you at this point. If he shows any sort of friendliness, you start overwhelming him with relationship talk.

Add to that that I have thought all along, and still think, that he is truly a WH - that there is an affair involved. The unpredictability alone is a big sign. He says he'll pick up DS and then doesn't show, doesn't explain, doesn't call. The coldness toward you. It all screams affair to me. At the very least, I would guess that there is a one-sided affair, meaning that he is enamoured of someone, whether or not she returns it. Any way you look at it, it's the same. He's caught up in the fog of fantasy.

And until he comes out of that fantasy world, and is ready to deal with the real one, nothing you do is going to help. Plan B and 180 are both designed to help shake them out of that fantasy world - but there is no chance the plans can do that if you don't stick to them.

You keep asking what to do - the answer is simple. Work on you. Quit worrying about him. Work on getting yourself back in order, back to a state where you will be ok with or without him. Doing that is your best chance of presenting an attractive spouse that he wants to be with. Even then, it may not help the marriage. But if it doesn't, you'll still be all right.

And last but not least - Sleepless is right, you are heading into some dangerous territory with the friend. And with the other guy asking you out (as just friends). At least, I thought I got that there were two different people involved here. You're hurting, and you will be surprised how just the smallest kindness can take you to a place you thought you could never go. Getting involved with someone else while you are married is letting yourself in for a world of hurt, and you would be surprised how it can sneak up on you.

On top of it, you have friends telling you to move on - talking about setting you up with someone else already. This is also a problem.

Whew. Look at this. It's chaos all around you. You can't control what WH does, what your friends say, or the situation you are in. What you can control is - you. That's the other thing following a set plan is designed to do - give you an oasis of calm in the midst of all this chaos. You don't have to wonder if every little thing he does is a sign of something. Because it doesn't matter. All you have to do is follow your plan no matter what.

Focus.

I somehow skipped Sleepless' previous posting - I know, I have to be careful about letting any guy trying to fill in my vacant spot in my heart. I behaved myself around my friend Saturday night. I don't think he was trying to take advantage of me or anything - I trust him. My best friend is a guy, and I have to be careful more with him as he did tell me he loves me before, before all of the crazy stuff happened. But now because of what I am going through, I told him I do not want anything to jeopardize my relationship with H. I also told him even if we end up divorcing, I need to reestablish my life so I don't want to mess with him either way, even though I treasure our friendship.

The other guy who asked me out is very new and I am not interested in him so I don't think I need to worry about him. Well, since he knows I am separated I will be careful and make sure he will not take advantage of me and also I need to be careful not to start depending on him emotionally. I called him back last night to decline his dinner offer also. He emailed me this morning but I haven't replied either.

I know I am not ready for any relationship. I want H back. So why would I be ready? I guess it is more just for hope and strength... I need to feel that my life will be okay and happy again, and that is why when I just "imagine" spending time with a loving guy who is a lot stronger mentally and would not betray me gives me some strength. But I know, I need to feel OKAY alone, without a guy.

gotcha oxgirl-i'm sticking to plan A and 180 just other thoughts go throught my mind.

and i agree...my husband said "evrytime i came to the house you either talked about me coming home or hinted at it"

too much relationship talk

Thank you OSXgirl. Somehow I keep getting some of the postings after I post.

I just went to another book store. No luck. This is the fourth book store that did not have the book you recommended. So finally I placed an order - she said it would take about two weeks! What happened to the high-tech fast pace world that we live in??

I really don't know about H possibly having A. Like you said though, at minimum H is involved in one-sided affair.

I am trying to stick to the plan. At least since last Monday, I have not brought up any relationship talk. I know it's small, but it is an improvement for me!

By the way, H's family is encouraging me to date! They think H might get jealous if he sees me being with another man. I told them I am not ready, but they keep asking if I am dating...

Oh, definitely no dating! But, this is where 180 can come in. A lot of the things you do in a 180 are things that can make a spouse THINK you are dating. Working on appearance, not being always available, not talking about fixing relationship. If he asks you outright if you are seeing someone, you don't lie. But you can be clever about how you answer - using the reverse-babble technique that TR has described on the boards. (At least, I think it's ThornedRose that put out the reverse-babble technique, if not... sorry about that to whomever did come up with it on here!)

And example - he says, "So, what, are you seeing someone now?" You say, "I see lots of people every day. They're all over the place." He says, "No, I mean are you seeing someone special?" You say, "Well, I think most of the people I see are pretty special." He says, "I mean are you dating?" You say, "Well, you're the one who wanted out of the marriage, so what difference does it make?" If he pushes it, you can always say, "No, I'm not dating, but I do keep busy."

Of course, you're not even close to being to that point yet. But take a few lessons from him - what are all the things he has done that have made you wonder if he is having an A?

I honestly don't know what plan you should be in right now - I don't think you can really do a proper plan B and a 180 at the same time, since the 180 only works if he actually sees some of the things you are doing in the 180, and plan B is no contact. Maybe wiser heads around here can help you determine that... though you'd probably have to start a new thread at this point to get responses from people other than the ones who are already on this one.

But again, I don't know that which plan is as important as sticking to one and seeing it through.

You will, though, have a lot of people telling you to move on, date others, drop him, you don't need him, etc., through this. You need to be strong... just say thanks, I'll keep that in mind. And then stick to your plan, which, no matter which one you pick, should NOT include dating before you are divorced.

And I don't know - the real answer may be that you can't save the marriage, that divorce is inevitable, or that you would be better off without him. But you owe it to yourself and to the vows you made to try until you know it's over. You just have to be a little more careful about HOW you try to save it, since you know that following your instincts about it lead you to do things that only push him further away.

I'm not one for spouting Dr. Phil at people, but I do think he's right on this one - you need to earn your divorce. For your own well-being and peace of mind, you need to make sure you've done everything you can to save the marriage. But you still need to be willing to move on when it becomes obvious that it is time to do so. And just ignore those encouraging you to move on before you're ready.

Thanks OSXgirl. I tried to change the subject line before but did not seem to work. I am trying a different thing now - hopefully this works and get other people respond to my thread more.

My friend told me that usually b/c men do the chasing (I know, that is not all true, but he was saying that IN GENERAL), we the women have become lazy and cluless as to what we should do to attract our H's! Sadly, this might be true..., I am going round and round and yet haven't come up with any fresh ideas how I can make H fall in love with me again! It's easier to attract a brand new man, but boy, it is hard to attract someone who knows you so well and on top of it, I am a terrible liar! I can't lie!

I guess I only managed to change the subject line for my posting but not for the entire thread huh.... Do I need to start the new thread? Any technical support??

Try changing the subject line on the first post on the thread. That works for me.

Plan B with a 180? Wouldn't that involve contact?

Is that the fire alarm going off??? What is with all of these flashing red lights?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Somebody needs to find a new best friend for now. Do you know any nuns? Any married couples you can hang out with....TOGETHER?

Your best friend is NOT a good source of information right now. I don't care HOW virtuous he is.



SLIMEBALL! You are not divorced, AND you're trying to reconcile your family, AND he's asking you out?? Do you still have a ring on your finger?? Bigger slimeball.

You have a problem and it's about focus. You need to get out of your current environment for awhile. If, as I believe, you're in the Chicago area, you need to get away for awhile from people, stuff and things. As your travel consultant, here are my recommendations. Warren Dunes in Michigan along the Red Arrow Highway. The beach is beautiful, the water is warm and there are tons of nice coffee shops, delis..... you name it. I was just there with my son, and it we had a great time. Do a Google search. If you don't like Michigan, go to Lake Geneva. If you don't like that, pick a place.

You need some quiet time. Your home and work don't provide it. The people giving you advice or asking you out are clouding the issue. The Book His Needs Her Needs by Dr. Harley is really pretty good. If it can't help your husband and you, it can help you.

It sounds like you are a very attractive woman with potential suitors lurking around. I would remove yourself from that just now. When you're stronger, you need to say, I don't anticipate being ready to date anyone until a year after the divorce is final. That will cool some heals. I'm not that good looking, and I've got a singe woman that's been hitting on me too. It was never an issue before, but as soon as you look available.... BOOM! Just tell them to cool it and give you your space!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


You're right it feels good. But these are loving guys hitting on a married woman. Maybe not your best option right now. You want the ones who will love and take care of you because of what's on the inside. Maybe these guys want that, but they're not acting like it. BTW. Most men like the idea of rescuing the damsel in distress, but right now, that's not what you need. Your knight is out hiding under a rock, and you need to kick it over and shine some light on him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Stay on task with Plan A. No relationship talk. Get Surviving an Affair. Take a look at what Pebbles is doing. She's got a pretty good plan A and then B going, and I'm sure she wouldn't say she feels in control.

Thanks Confused! That worked!

Okay, so if I want to implement a 180, then it must be accompanied by Plan A then. That makes sense. Also I would feel better doing that, knowing that I am changing my behaviors but not cutting off all the contact with H.

So exactly, how often should I interact with H? I know with 180, I am not supposed to excessively call or email him. But in order for him to notice the changes, I need to contact. H does not live with us.

Testing 1.. 2.. 3. Is this thing on? How did you skip past my page of diatribe???

With him out of the house, Plan A works whenever you see him. He's a little reluctant for communication right now. Guilt will do that I think.

Charming and sweet when you see him. Don't talk about the relationship past. Talk about DS8. Talk about the house. Talk about your life, but don't ask when he's coming back.

How did you lure him in when you first met? It sounds like he's somewhat insecure that you're so successful and he's not as powerful as your coworkers. Be a little seductive. You're luring, not running after him. You need to play it like a game.

When you do connect... with him, be a good listener. Ask him questions about the college girl. What does he miss about his mom. Any opportunity for you to get close...take it. He's still a hurting person. You need to show some compassion and understanding in Plan A. It hurts a little, but remember, this is not the man you fell in love with, it's some alien being.

Please respond to me! I need validation!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (Sorry. It's late.)

Birthday party for DS2? Check out the cool PVC swords I described for Surviving in his wake! I still think it's a good idea given the proper surroundings!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />