Milk:

You seem to keep forgetting the significance of his sexual addiction...

It seems to me that he has to recover from this before he is able to participate in a healthy relationship with you.

What does your therapist say about this?

Mimi, you know, you got that so right. It's b/c I keep thinking this mess was created because of our problems not necessarily related to H's addiction. I have never known anyone in my family or close friends who had any sort of addictions, so I really do not know how to approach this.

One moment I feel that "H has a serious problem, and that has definitely affected our relationship" and another moment I feel "despite H's problem, the fact I did not show much affection to him affected our relationship and I want to make up for it..."

What did my therapist say about this? She thinks H's addictions have played a big role in this matter and unless he gets help (and he has to WANT to get better seriously), no relationships will work for him, which includes ours. Others made similar comments.

Isn't that funny, that while others including his own family seem to think that whatever the cause is (whether it is his addictions or depression), H is not in his right mind and thus our relationship will not work unless some king of changes will take place in H's way of thinking, I am the only one who still thinks "but if I only be nice to him.... remind him of our good old days..... he loved me so much how can he forget about me..., etc.".

I never knew I am THIS persistent!!! I never PURSUED anyone like this in my entire life... I always thought "if they do not want me I don't want them either". Maybe that was my pride. But, hey, I was NEVER married either before - so of course breaking up with boyfriends is different from divorcing someone who you had a child with!

So Mimi, if H cannot have any good relationship with me unless he gets better - what should I be doing? Wait around? I really want to know if he still goes to his counseling but do not want to call his therapist - he would tell H and that would only makes things worse.

I've been lurking for some time but decided to post. As you can see in my sig line, I'm one of the fortunate ones whose marriage was saved. (Milk, you know who I am...hi! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

I think you did a great job the night before and on the day of your H's birthday, Milk. You could see (and I could tell) how he appreciated the way you made him feel special. By the way you handled yourself while talking to him, you showed him that you're not just the mean person he thinks you are. This is how you deposit love units in his Love Bank. I wish you could score once and be done with it, but it doesn't work that way unfortunately if you want to get him to come back to a point where he agrees to give your marriage another try. It is a very small step at a time, and you have to try to score as often as you can. It requires a lot of patience not to give in to your instinct, react to your emotions and fall apart. But you've got to stick to it because every one of those little deposits counts. You'll have many more opportunities to see him in person, including your DS2's birthday. However short these opportunities may be, you just have to stick to your resolve to be strong and try to deposit more love units. As OSXgirl said, you need to be consistent. It's hard, I know, when you see him act the way he does in front of you. But you need to focus on showing him that you REALLY are a sweet and caring person, contrary to how he believes you are.

Also, don't discourage yourself by comparing the current situation with the past. Don't analyze every little thing about what he said or how he acted. Simply focus on what you can do to show him that you're caring and considerate and that your marriage is a "safe" place for him to return to, meaning that things won't be the way it was but will only be better.

When my H's A was in full swing and we went to see a psychologist trying to salvage our marriage, he was diagnosed with ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). I honestly think - and my H FINALLY realizes completely - that the diagnosis was very crucial in ending the A and saving our marriage. He was addicted to porn and became a sex addict (actually I'm not sure which came first). Porn kept feeding to his SA until the A. The A was the "porn fantasy come true". Based on this, I think one can be an SA without actually having an A (strictly speaking, porn is a form of an A, IMHO). My H and I are now coming to understand that the addiction - and ultimately the A - stemmed from his ADD.

I'm not suggesting that all WS have ADD or anything like that. But in your case, Milk, somehow ADD must be medically diagnosed. This may be how he will come out of the fantasy world he's in and his SA could be treated. Once diagnosed, he should be able to "unstuck" himself from the way he thinks you are. The book I recommended a while ago really helps you understand his actions and thought process. Also, a person with ADD must experience the pain or lonliness or whatever with his own body to fully understand it (called a kinestic learner). So your H talking to DS2's therapist about the effect of the chaos and seeing it in DS2 may shed light in the fog he's in.

In your situation, Milk, you can't force your H to go see an ADD specialist for diagnosis; you can only hope and pray that time will come when he will get diagnosed and treated somehow. But you can continue to do what you can, be it Plan A or not to LB.

Others may disagree, but I'd say that D filing is an LB at this point if you want to continue to try to save your marriage.

Another thing I wanted to comment: While there are a ton of stories to derive ideas and advice from to save a marriage, one needs to keep in mind that no one particular way works for one's own. The devastation an A or other crises in a marriage causes is enormous across the board, but a whole a lot more factors are involved in saving and restoring the marriage - each spouse's personality, childhood baggage, work and home environment, just to name a few. Just because the ADD diagnosis was the key to saving our marriage doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be for others, too. That's why there are professional counselors and psychologists out there; that's why even they offer different opinions about how you can save your marriage; and that's why no one, not even those who've been there has any specific answer for every single situation. But one thing a BS really needs is resolve to stick to one's plan - come up with a specific plan based on all the info he/she gathered; do what he/she can as much as possible; and stick to the plan. If one decides to follow a counselor's advice, stick to his or her advice.

My recovery is by no means a textbook story. It's taken so long and so much, and marriage is still bumpy at times, but we're here, and there are many others who've made it. Be strong, patient and consistent. You can do it!

I'd better stop playing an amateur psychologist - it took me I don't know how long to write this and I'm not sure if anything makes any sense at all. Sorry for all the babbling... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

can you explain the connection between his ADD and SA?

Eav:

I don't know a whole a lot yet but I'll try to answer your question.

A person with ADD needs some sort of stimulation to feel "good" or "happy". Without stimulation, he/she feels blah (or bored, I guess). Stimulation can be hobbies, a person/relationship, drugs, arguments, sex, work, anything. Once he/she finds a source of stimulation, the ADD makes him/her hyperfocus on it. A lot of times, once he/she gets hooked on the source of stimulation, he/she can't shift focus from it. See the connection? This is how my H's SA was stemmed from ADD.

All this happens without the person's knowledge. He/she doesn't do this on purpose. It's a medical condition. That's why it's hard for those around them to figure out as well as for the ADD people themselves.

thanks hopeful

as someone recently diagnosed with adhd (one of the things i did to work on ME for HIM)that makes sense to me. My stimulation was work-another reason whymy marraige ended up in trouble. i was ALWAYS at work

nowwith medication-work is no big deal. i do my time and do it well and then i come home-to an empty house

my husband says "too little too late"

I just logged back in and now have to go catch my train, but thank you for your long post Hopefull, I will read that tonight at home. By the way, did I mention that my H is also ADDD? People with ADD/ADHD are more susceptible to get depressed and have addictions. That totally fit my H's profile...!!

Milk,

I blamed myself for a long, long time, too. "His Needs Her Needs" was really tough to read because it made me think that I (BS) was at fault for creating a mess to begin with.

I can't say for everyone, but for some couples, there could've been only unmet EN's that caused rifts. For others, there could've been a whole a lot more than just unmet EN's.

You are painfully aware of what you could've done or could do should your marriage survive. Then you can show him how your marriage can look by putting it to practice. If you think you weren't good at sh,*wing him affection, you can do that (but not overly). You can't fix his underlying medical/psychological problems, but you can make every effort to show your H that you are/can be different.

How long should you do it? That is up to you. If you can keep doing it for the next 6 months, you can. If, at the end of the 6 months, you're completely exhausted physically and mentally, then you can stop. If you think at that point that you can continue, you can. There is no set rule. You can decide how long.

Mimi,

Sorry to butt in...somehow I jumped on responding even though I had to sign off a long time ago!!!

Thanks Hopeful.

I really think I am at a point where I just have to decide what I want to do. Even though some may think it's been only 3 1/2 months since H left home, the whole mess of H's wanting a divorce started close to 9 months ago, or if I inlcude our huge fight that led to H's first mentioning of D ever in our entire relationship in January 2004, this thing has been going on for over a year and a half now.

If the only reason H has not filed for divorce is b/c he is being cheap and does not pay for any legal costs, well, that would REALLY makes me mad and would be a very big turnoff, not that I want him to file, but you know what I mean. Men who have no honor and no problems using women for their own benefits most disgust me.

Although I am aware that my having to decide how long I want to wait before taking any legal actions should be up to ME, not based on H's actions. That is what I have been thinking these days.

In the mean time, I will continue Plan A/180 but I just can't keep doing this forever.

I had a counseling sessiong with my therapist last night. She said H hasn't called her yet. That is another turnoff. Isn't he, the father of our son, concerned of his little boy's wellbeing? How much more selfish can he get?? Oh, yeah, that's right, that is H's virtue right now - "I am being selfish and that is a good thing b/c I am taking care of myself". He has said this so many times, he believes in it. Great!

Haven't heard from OSXgirl - are you there??

milk,

if you count the time that my husband was still at home but "not happy" and the time since he's left...I've been at this for 2 years and no way am i giving up yet!!!

you love him right??

i still think you need to plan A and find out if he is in an affair....it seems like this could be the case based upon his actions.

I guess so - I may be just missing how things were before with him. When I close my eyes and remember how sweet H was, then I really love him. When I look at current H with dark empty eyes and no emotions in his face, I don't know if I love him. He looks foreign to me.



Yeah, I will continue to plan A but I don't know finding out the truth about his affair would do any good to my mental health. My therapist does not think so. She or my old therapist (her boss) are not familiar with MB's concepts. They believe that you have to be independent and be capable of making yourself happy, and meeting your spouse's ENs is just a bonus and not something you should expect. Most of the therapists I have met or people I met at church basically share the same view.

It's time for me to take DS2 to his counseling. I will log back in later.

I am sorry I have not posted before, I finally caught up with your story because I am going through something similar myself (In Rocovery).

I have lived with a man for about 13 years that is a SA that just recently admitted to it.

I followed the MB principles and things seemed to work OK for us, recovery was on track although stalled at times.

There were times on here when folks (Mel etal) had given advice to people that when a M had the added bonus of an addiciton, that the MB principles were not useful until the addiction was dealt with. I argued and said...whatever, an A is an addiction, why can't Plan A and Plan B work still?...

Now I know...and this is important.

While my H is an addict, we are not able to recover the M.

From what I've read (and pardon me if I've skimmed over important posts) it seems your H has moved out to continue his SA unencumbered by guilt and prying eyes (yours). When he says he's met women, some good, some bad, it means he has met them in the biblical sense and some were people he wouldn't take home to meet mom.

If he has gotten arrested for his sexual acting out it means he is in it DEEP! Only a minimal amount of their sexual behavior is actually discovered, it is always FAR worse than what we find out.

I don't want to sound pessimmistic, but there will be no recovery unless he deals with this, admits, and is remorseful...and you can't get him there.

What you CAN do is make yourself healthier so if/when the day comes that he wants to try again, you will be strong enough to make the right choice.

I recently found 2 VERY GOOD websites.

Sexualcontrol.com

and

recoverynation.com

especially the partner's workshop.

Both are free and VERY enlightening and helpful.

From what I've read about your H, he wants to be able to be free to continue his addiction. Think of him as a crack addict that has decided to leave the family to live in a crack house...he is choosing his addiction.

StillHere, thank you for posting very valuable comments based on your own experience.

I will definitely check out those websites.

So you think H has moved out to "pursue" his addictions? See, that is what still puzzles me. 'Cause H said he would move out b/c our "unhealthy" relationship has led him to this low point in his life and he needs to get well. So it seems that he is willing to get better, although the fact he was trying to meet another woman suggests that he is not 100% committed to it. But I DO believe that H wants to get "healthy".

What if then he GETS well by living alone - then he would reason "see, I got healthier by moving away from my wife, then it must have been her or our relationship that made me worse" so there really is no reason for him to come back to me. If he does not get better, then he would not come back or even if he does, our relaionship will not work out anyway. I am doomed...!!

If you do not mind sharing some of your experience, can you tell me a bit about you and your H's story and how your H decided to recommitt to your M? How long did it take?

My friend just called. He is going through a divorce as well. We have been supporting each other (also we both have boys so we got together from time to time with our boys) but this evening he said in rather upbeat voice "this is over, we are getting divorced". They were going through the paperwork and that is nearly complete and they should be divorced in a few weeks now. He was getting emotional last week and called me up - I told him if he still has doubt he should try to save it last week, but he said today his friend talked to his WW for the last time to see where she is at and apparently she said she just wants to get divorced ASAP and be done with it. So now my friend does not have any doubt.

It made me sad - H is saying he is done too and now soon I will be in my friend's shoe...!!!

Very sad.

What my experience has been, and what I've read time and time again, and what Dr. Harley writes is that a S does not leave the marital home unless he/she wants to continue the A.

My H would have said ANYTHING to continue his acting out...and he did. He lied to me for over 12 years. He denied he had a problem, and denied it was an addiction. He blamed me, and I beleived it.

He chased women, cybered, and dated (and these are only the things I found out about or he admitted to). I've recently found out he was "enjoying himself" about every other day.

What I've learned is that his addiction will be getting worse and worse as the years go on...would escalate, and I saw that happening. He would not take responsibility, and like A's he wanted to deny, deny, deny. He blamed me...tell me if you've heard any of these...
"You don't give me enough sex."
"It's just easier this way, so I don't have to bother you."
"I'm tired of getting rejected."
"Why don't you dress sexier...where your hair up...etc."

The SA permeates EVERY part of your R. He is leading a double life. He has a full blown secret and established fantasy life. It takes a great deal of effort to maintain this life, and my suspicion is he can't maintain this life in secret anymore, so he has to move away. He also has the intimate, loving life with you...that is the dilemna. He is caught in a habit/cycle/shame that he has this secret life and can't or won't give it up, and can't have his intimate life too. Think of it as a split personality, and he is spending most of his life in his SA life.

Please, please, please, start learning about SA and how it has affected you. You can learn to talk with him and TRY to bring him back...but the choice is up to him...not you.

You can email me if you like, not sure how much folks will get out of the SA talk, and I'm just starting on this.

I've just started on the recoverynation.com partners workshop.

stillheremakingit@yahoo.com

What changed for us? 2 years of recovery and then I found where FWH had emailed an ex-GF...just to catch up.
Some MB folks led me to think in terms of SA...something I had suspected before and led me to those 2 websites. I sat down with H and we read the entire sexualcontrol.com website and that is when he admitted it. I was able to ask him ANY QUESTION and he answered...for the FIRST time in our M, THE TRUTH!!!

email me if you'd like

Oh StillHere, THANK YOU!! I was trying to get in touch with SANON, but we just kept playing a phone tag. Really, THANK YOU for your offer - I would love to email you to learn more about this disease. And I will check the websites you posted as well - maybe not at work but at home at night.

My H sais the same thing to me, it is AMAZING!! H said

"You don't give me enough sex, I always have to beg"
"I'll just take care of myself (when he asks for sex and is not getting it), so I don't have to bother you"
"I am tired of always begging"
"Why don't you wear a mini-skirt and pink lipstick and pull up your hair?"

Oh my gosh, these are my H's words and they are almost identical to your FWH's!!! It is scary!

Now I began to believe that in fact H'S SA DID play a big role in this mess we are in now...

Again, you don't know how much your offer to help me in this area really mean to me, StillHere. Thanks, and I will email you later once I get to work.

If our M is in trouble because of H's addiction(s), then maybe there is nothing I can do, unless H gets better. Still, I keep thinking - H is a human being and has always been a sweet person - he has a heart - why can't I do something to influence his emotions??

So here is my question: should I call H to wish him a safe trip to CA? It might not be for business, and in that case H may feel guilty seeing me believing that it is a business trip and wishing him a safe trip. If it is indeed a business trip, I want to wish him a safe trip anyway and would like to ask H to call DS2 from CA. This is based on our agreement, that H would call on Monday and Wednesday nights, and sometime during weekends.

What do you think?

I am really a newbie at this, there are some other folks that are replying on my thread on the Recovery board that have been at this longer...Drucilla, Javaprincess, Lilybelle.

Things seem different this time, he is actually telling me the truth and not being dodgy...hiding...saying "I don't know".

For years I treated him like he has ADD and Passive-Aggressive...now I'm realizing these things were all symptoms of SA.

And now that I've realized this problem I see it all around me...in other people, and I realize how much it has affected our lives ENTIRELY.

One big thing I'm realizing these days is that his troubled sex life is a symptom of keeping everyone around him at a distance, no intimacy, never getting truly close with anyone.

And the thing I'm working on these days, is healing myself, not taking the blame for his addiciton that he came into the M with,a nd if anything, I helped it not get SOooo far. TO not spend my time and effort on HIS recovery, but understand my role and how I feel about all this...

Thanks StillHere. I just checked out one of the websites you suggested. I think it is great that you and your husband checked this out together. My husband DID ask me to go to SANON before he left home. Of course I said yes but I never had a chance to do so, since he left shortly after that.

Do you think asking H to check out this website is a good idea, or do you think he may think I am trying to control him again? Does anyone have any thoughts on this? If telling H about this website IS a good idea, how should I approach this? Of course before telling him about it, I will make sure FIRST I get pretty familiar with the website and topics discussed there.

Any views on this are greatly appreciated. Thank you!