milk

plan A

call him to show you care

I guess I will call him tonight (for one reason to find out if he is still seeing his counselor tonight) to wish him a safe trip to CA tomorrow and also might mention the websites - or should I just call him for the trip? One at the time?

bump...

I don't think I would mention any other resources for HIM until you have researched yourself...
It's been about HIM for so long, it's time for it to be about YOU...

Sure, I'd give him a call, let him know you wish him well. Let him know you are working on SA stuff and if there is anything he suggests.

Well maybe it is still premature, you are right. I need to read more stuff on the websites (I went throught the first one and now was reading a bit from the second link).

I mentioned once that I was reading stuff about SA since H left his books. He did not say anything about that.

Just feeling sad... Feeling very bad for my baby... He is only 3 (almost) and can't even walk the street with his parents holding each of their hands doing the "swing" in the middle... I just saw a little girl doing that today, which made me really sad. DS2 used to LOVE doing it with us. After H left, DS2 saw other kids doing it in the parking lot and asked me to do the same. He grabbed this guy's hand (he is a friend of my friend and we just met for the first time then) and my hand, and wanted to do the same. Why, why why..... What is this wonderful and happy life H is seeking? Why can't we in it??

Hi Milkshake,
I too, have an H with SA issues and perhaps
other emotional/mental issues. Please see
my replay on Eav's message "OW is on answering machine".
I'd be glad to correspond with you since we have
this in common to deal with.
Anne (Slammed1)

Hi Milkshake...
I answered on the I/R board - Dru

Thanks Anne and Dru - I have to get going now but will log back in later.

milkshake

here is a copy of slammed1's post from my thread for you

Hi Milkshake and others dealing with SA or other
emotional/mental issues:

Have read your threads and feel very similar as
I am in the same "boat".

To give you some background, my H was diagnosed
about five years ago with depression and obessive-
compulsive disorder. Since then, he has tried a
large number of different medicines, mostly all
anti-depressants, and also meds for ADD, none of
which have been terribly effective.

About four years ago, I noticed him acting distant
and spending lots of time on the computer. Snooped,
and found out he was corresponding with a person
he met on an internet site (friendfinder.com) who
lived in a nearby town. I called her, found out
they had just been corresponding for a few weeks,
and had met for lunch twice. He had told her alot
of untrue things about me and our relationship,
which really hurt. She agreed to end her dealings
with him. He was extremely angry, but got over
it eventually and indicated he would put more effort
into our relationship, so for a short time things
were better.
A couple of months later, he started spending more
time away from home, until he was out late almost
every night. Eventually found out he was involved
with a recently widowed, older woman, with children
(seemed like an odd choice). Did all the "usual"
things, like plead, beg, cry, bargain, and everything
else I could think of to try to persuade him to
put his effort, heart and mind back into our M,
but got only FOG talk back- we were "through", he
considered us "seperated", we had no future, etc.
His behavior was very strange- he disappeared for
days or stayed out all night, would call me and say
he was coming home soon, then show up hours later,
lots of money spent on OW, new clothes, etc.-
all things that sound like the other WS on this site !

About that time I found MB. Tried my best to do a
good Plan A, despite his total disregard for my feelings,
our M, our life. Finally, I had enough. I called the
OW to say "she could have him", and found out he had
not been that honest with her, and she didn't really
want him. I moved out of our house and stayed with
my parents for a month. During that time, he called
me often- sometimes just for something odd, like
telling me a certain TV show was on, or to ask about
our dog !? Finally, I discovered that she had broken
things off. He had quite a hard time going through
withdrawal, but did finally go back to the Dr and
get a new medicine, and asked if we could get back
together. It wasn't easy- but I felt like we made
progress and had a decent recovery. He also went
into IC to work on his "issues", although he didn't
stick with it too long. (didn't like the Dr).

For the past three years, things have been up and down,
but overall, I've thought them better, and I've been
aware of meeting his EN's, and avoiding LB's.
One big issue has been his lack of interest in SF with
me- I had tried everything I could think of, and he
would always say he "wasn't in the mood", or was tired.
Initially I thought it was the side effect of the Ad's
but the more I did some reading and research I began
to think it sounded like H might have SA.
I have mentioned it to him, but he strongly denies
"having anything like that", and hasn't been interested
in find out more or asking a specialist about it.

This whole year has been up and down- things feeling
like they are going better, doing fun things together,
and making future plans, then periods where he is
secretive, distant and I get suspicious.
I haven't found any concrete evidence of involvement
with any one person, but have found enough in the
way of "mystery" phone numbers on slips of papers,
receipts for restaurants, cash in his briefcase, etc.
that I started to think he was definitely SA and
was either making contacts through a website or
possibly even using an escort service. (gross !!!!)

Starting about 2 months ago, he has been very
"closed down"- won't talk about anything, gets
mad easily and at strange things, seems angry and
resentful with me (for no particular reason), and
talks and behaves in a way that seems like the FOG
again. He is SO "back and forth". Some days he
says "we aren't together" and he won't do anything
with me, then the next day he will ask me to do
things with him and we'll have a nice time together.
He has started saying that we are going to get
divorced, but sometimes this is followed by him
asking me if I'd like to go get something to eat!!!??
REALLY confusing !! He sometimes wears his wedding
ring, and sometimes doesn't. He fusses about it,
but sleeps in the bed with me every night, even
though we do have other beds and/or couches where
he could sleep if he really wanted to.
He got separation/divorce paperwork from the courthouse
but hasn't done anything with it, although he sometimes
uses the paperwork as a "threat" to me.
He has also asked me to make a list of the things I
want from our house, and bugs me about this every day.

This pattern seems so like exactly how things went
four years ago that it's eery ! I have been going
to IC and trying to "work" on me, but it's hard.
I am trying to get better at entertaining myself,
not making plans or counting on him, doing "self-
care", and making some plans in case we do end up
in D, but of course, that's not what I really want.
I want my H back, like he was before addictions,
SA, depression, or whatever it is, took him over !!

My counselor has been helpful in analyzing some
of his behaviors and background and giving me
some input on what she thinks is going on with
him, but it still comes down to him probably
not being able to get any better unless he gets
some help- both medication and therapy.
He asked me to get him the name of counselors
and said he wanted to go back into therapy about
a month ago, but has done nothing with it-
don't know if he got scared or what !

I'm still not clear on what exactly he is doing-
but as FOGGY as he seems, something has to be
going on. I wonder if it's mostly computer
and/or phone correspondence ?
He goes to the gym and/or to tan most days
after work, but I do believe he is really
doing that, as any time I've gone by the
gym, his car has been there (plus he comes
home with a wet towel and sweaty tshirt at night).
He sometimes works Saturday morning, or
stays longer at work than might be needed,
but we usually talk, and he has been there when
he's said he was.
Most of what's suspicious is his taking longer
than needed to come home from a certain location,
or "disappearing" for awhile, which makes me
assume he is on the phone with someone. Doesn't
seem long enough to be meeting someone-
Assuming that he does either have an addiction
to an A, or an addiction to the internet relationships
in general, I've been trying to do a Plan A, and
some 180 plan, but in light of his possible SA
and other mental/emotional issues don't know if
any of it might help or if I'm wasting my time.

Just know I'm physically and mentally exhausted.
I'm tired of feeling like a victim, but don't feel
like anything I do makes any difference.
I feel like I'm just "at his mercy" and am scared
he's going to come home with separation/divorce
paperwork.
Not that I haven't thought at times that I'm tired
of living like this, it's just really scary to have
it really happening, and not of my own decision
and/or timing- does that make sense ?
Also very scary, is realizing that if we divorce
I'll lose our house, which I love, but wouldn't
be able to afford, will have to get rid of my
new car because I can't afford it, and will have
to get either a different job or 2nd job, as
will need the money. Feel like I've given my
all for 10 years with him, and will end up with
nothing....
Know others have felt/feel this way too, just
so tired of it all.
Anne

Milk,

Sorry - haven't been on-line much. I've had several migraines lately, which means I've missed work, and have had to try and make up some of the hours.... plus just busy in general. I'll try and write a little later once I've had a chance to read and catch up....

Thanks Eav for copying Slammed1's post. I noticed that you learned the new technique of "linking" this to another posting - how did you do that?? Girl, you are getting better and better at this!!

Thanks OSXgirl. I was becoming to worry about you. The bookstore just called me this morning so I will go pick up the book you recommended.

I am not sure if you all read Dru's comments on the Recovery board, but she agrees with SH in that she does not see much hope in my situation. And her FWH was an SA too.

What am I doing here? I am working on myself and think I have been enjoying myself and DS2 a lot more (I wouldn't say I feel 'happy' though), but I feel like I am just fooling myself trying to believe there is "something" still left. Aaaagh, I just want to quit! I called my lawyer to send me the contract so that I can sign and retain him. He said he sent it to me on Monday but I haven't received it. Something really must be up with H. I was speaking to his brother this morning and when he called and left H a message on Sunday wishing him a happy birthday, even though it was not late and H should have had plenty of time to get back to him, he did not call back until Monday. Then the conversation they had was very inpersonal and a surface type talk. Another indication that H has been too busy with "something" and really does not care about anything else (he does not even care much about his own son, his sister, another sister who just had a baby, and his own brother). If H DID meet someone, I pray to God that she is not perfect. I mean, I know she won't be, but I hope she is not a young, pretty, sexy single girl who gives a lot of attention and affection to H and admires him. I really hope not!!

I just wanted to copy what StillHereMakingIt posted to my thread on the Recovery board. For those who might not be familiar with my situation - I AM NOT IN RECOVERY!!! I just posted over there b/c there are some who are familiar with the SA issue.

This is what StillHere kindly replied -

I had to come to the realization the the game was over whether I wanted it to be or not. I had to look at our M closely and realized he wasn't really there anyway.

I decided I was going to live life for me and my kids. I had spent SOooo Muuchhh time worrying about how to make things better..."If only he would..." that I was ignoring myself and my needs.

I finally realized I had been doing all the work...on him...and it was getting ignored or undermined...what if I had put all that energy to me and the kids and MY life...where would I be.

I made the analogy that H and I were on a ship (a relationSHIP?) and he had jumped overboard and was swimming around...I kept hollering for him to get on board and throwing him a life preserver, but he was laughing at it...didn't want to get out. Why not enjoy sunbathing, swabbing the deck, etc. He'll let you know when he wants to be "saved". And if he decides he wants to continue swimming...then look out over the horizon, do you want to stay in this one spot with a fine boat under you?

It's sad to consider that a M may end...but it is not really your choice...




And to that, the following was my reply (sorry, I don't know how to link them so am simply copying the text!):

Thanks StillHere. I know what you are saying. I guess my problem is that I do not feel that I fought hard enough for his addiction. Because we did not know about it until last June, and even then I did not go to SANON b/c I really did not belive in such thing as a sex addiction. Also b/c since he started going to see his counselor and attend SA meetings, things improved so much that I felt things are getting better. So in the mean time, I really was not doing anything to "save" H or our M. Then when I and DS2 came back from the trip in November, the bomb was dropped. H said he wants to get out of our relationship.... that is the only time it really hit me. Oh my God, he was not getting better! Things were not getting better for us! So I contacted his counselor, we tried to see him together, I tried to speak to him, cried, begged, everything. Did not change a thing. I was not using MB concepts either. Only after H left about four months ago, I started posting on the board here. Maybe it is too late then.

But I know, regardless, it is not my choice. He wants to continue his life alone or with someone who is much better than me, then that would be his choice. The only thing I was hoping to accomplish is that to offer him an attractive alternative to return to. Again, though, I have only been doing so recently - I really did not have a firl plan until recently.


Each day, I am more convinced that there is nothing I can do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Should I just wake up and face the reality? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Plan B, I don't think would work for H, since he is already so detached and gone for quite some time. So my option is to straight to plan D?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Guess I need some guidance and emotional support today...

How can you tell whoever you meet in the future will not turn out to be like H?? Or that he will not have a midlife crisis or something?? Just a thought....

Really, it appears that people on this board seem to think I cannot save my M. Then why do I keep fooling myself as if this could be saved??

By the way, I did call him yesterday from the train to wish him a safe trip. His cell phone was turned off. I don't know if it was b/c he was still in the office or not. I thought he might call last night to speak to DS2 but he did not. I hope that is b/c he was at his group therapy but who knows if he is still keeping up with that. One thing I asked him yesterday in my message was to call DS2 from CA during the weekend, since that is what we agreed (DS2's therapist said it is very important that H calls on a regular basis and be consistent).

Then this morning I called him while driving to DS2's daycare. I thought he might want to talk to him before going to CA. H did not answer, but the phone (cell) kept ringing, so H DID turn on his phone last night or this morning and he should have noticed my message last night. But no words.

I really think he is in love with someone and does not even be bothered. Not even by his own son whom he claims to love to death! Sure!!!

Again, if there is no hope and H has become such a selfish person, why do I bother? I really hope that he would hit the rock bottom!!!!! Who did I marry to???

I am copying the good reply I received from JavaPrincess over the Recovery board and my response...





Again, is it time for me to move on?

Milkshake,
I sure do understand how you feel, and I am
feeling the same way.

Although my H has not been diagnosed with SA,
I feel that his behavior really does "fit" it.
From the reading/research I've done on it, I
realize that H apparently cannot control this
addiction and won't get better without help.
He also has issues with alcohol, and has been
diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive disorder as
well as depression, so lots of issues going on-
maybe too much to "fix" ???

I felt some hope about a month ago, as H said
he would like to get back into therapy, and
asked for my help in getting our insurance
information and list of providers for him.
Gave him all the information, but he's done
nothing with it, so I guess he's just not ready
or willing to get help, so nothing has changed.

H has been on a new medicine (anti-depressant)
for about two months now, and I think it has
made him worse. He did say he he was going back
to the family Dr to see about a change, but
this is what he's been doing for five years,
with them trying him on numerous medicines and
not really having a good result. He REALLY
needs to go to a psychiatrist who can analyze
all the meds he's tried, his symptoms, etc.
and evaluate him, but until he's willing, again
nothing will change.

He has gone from being fun, kind, and loving to
being very selfish, uncaring, cold, and just
seems totally in another world, which excludes
me and everything that's ever been important to
him/us, and I am just totally devestated by this.
We don't have kids, but we have a dog who is like
our "child", and he doesn't even give much attention
to her anymore, as he is so "self" involved.

His behavior and things he says are very much like
the FOG and BABBLE that others here are experiencing,
so I feel sure he is involved with someone else
(or several people) which all ties in with his
addiction. For that reason I have been trying to
operate under the MB principles, as well as
reading about the 180 and "Last Resort Technique"
from Michelle Weiner-Davis, but I don't know that
I'm making any progress. H still does whatever he
wants, disappears for hours, is very inconsiderate,
is secretive and hides things/money, and is VERY
"back and forth". He will say we can't do anything
together because "he's not married", "we're not
together", " we are splitting up", then the next
day ask me to a movie, out to dinner, or to do
something together !! Very confusing for me, and
I guess is the result of his own confusion/fog ??
If I ask "too much" or put him on the spot, he tells me
he wants a list of the things I want in our house,
or says he'll file for divorce. (using those things
as a threat, I guess). He's also said to "stay out
of his business", which is, I guess, a threat to
me not to try to contact any of the OW ??
(I have been able to access the online cell phone
bill and found repeat calls to certain numbers
which are women. I am assuming these are people
he has met on the internet and chats and/or
gets together with).

I have thought of calling them and "exposing"
however since it seems like H is addicted more
to the internet and corresponding itself, more
than a particular person, I didn't know if it would
help. Also afraid of his reaction, and that it will
cause him to file D, maybe out of anger ?

H owns another house, which he bought in order to
renovate and sell, but now acts like he intends to
fix it up and live there himself. I am starting to
wish he'd just hurry up and move there, so I could
do Plan B and be out of all his "drama".
I'm afraid though, if he does move that he will file
for the D, and that only takes 3 months to be final,
so wouldn't give too much time for a Plan B to "work".
If he moves out, he also will not be wanting to
pay towards our house and I can't afford it alone,
so would have to put it up for sale.

H came home last night and told me he was going out
of town this weekend. He won't tell me where, with
who, or why, but I certainly suspect he is going with
some OW. I asked if we couldn't just go somewhere
together, reminded him how much fun we have, etc.
but he just says NO, "wer'e done". This morning
he repeated over and over, "I"m not married".
I guess he's trying to convince himself, in order
to justify his behavior ???

All I feel like I can do is try to be as detached
as possible, entertain myself, work on "me", check
into home/job options (if D, will need to make more
money) and continue to pray he will decide to get
help and also give our M another try.

If he does file the D and move, it may also be that
he will still be caught up in his fantasy world and
our M will end. This makes me unbearably sad, and
the thought of having to sell the house, move,
financial difficulties, dealing with friends and
family, etc. all seems so overwhelming.

Guess I'm feeling a bit sorry for myself today, just
dread the thought of just myself and the dog for another
long weekend alone, while he's off having fun and spending
money.

Don't have any big advise for you- just be good to you
and know others care and are going through the same
things. I would appreciate input and suggestions
from anyone too.
Anne

I am sorry Anne. I am kind of having a bad day today as well. My H is going to CA this weekend, and I suspect this is not for his job (why during the weekend??).

We are still married so if H is having any kind of relationship, that is cheating but I am VERY sure H does not feel that way. H said one of the reasons he wanted to move out was so that next time he meets someone he does not have to feel guilty dating. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

There are so many of us who are trying to figure out why our WS's behave this way and how can we get back them, etc., and at least knowing that we are not alone is something. But of course I wish I never had to post on this board!!!

I think I will start taking the legal actions - I can't keep fooling myself... It's just too much. Filing for divorce is going to be very tough and I am sure I will get very depressed, but hey, DO I HAVE AN OPTION?? No I don't!!!

I really hope H would not have a good time in CA but am almost certain he would.... So very fair!

Hey, this morning when I was walking towards my office, someone (a guy) came up to me and said "you are very attractive, can I buy you a cup of coffee?" I said no thanks, I was late for work, then he asked if we could have lunch sometime so I said no. But I was thinking - if I was H, if I would think like H, I should be mad at him b/c I just "missed" the golden opportunity to have fun, right?? Since everything is my fault anyway.

Aaaaaaaaaaagh, time to move on, time to move on, time to move on!!! I am going to file!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Hi Milk,

I am very sorry. I know how much this sucks! I was thouroghly ready to proceed w/D, and the thought made me feel like such a failure. My 2nd marriage, I was about 32yo... I couldnt figure out how I could have been so stupid.

My H and his SA councelor say this is very hard todetect, especially with the computer porn. By the time the W catches on, it's usually way out of control. I feel I should have figured it out, but they keep saying NO. We can only blame ourselves for so long.

I dont know if anyone can predict this stuff. I think it's like looking at a group of college kids trying to figure out which becomes a real alcoholic.

You didnt 'miss' any golden opportunity with that guy this morning... he hit on a woman with a wedding ring, that's not the kind of guy you're looking for.

Please take care of yourself... I do wish you well. It's a strange sister-hood here. I'm sorry - Dru