JSINSD

I'm deeply sorry that you find yourself here, but this is the best resource you could have found at this time.

Right now, I can see that you're going through that awful period when you're struggling to adjust your 'focus' from the way you thought things were to they way they really are. Unfortunately, you're now in a place where the old 'rules' by which you led your life will no longer work for you. This is a war-zone, and you have to stop being a civilian and get used to the idea you're in combat fatigues.

At the moment, you're still being Mr. Nice, and you're naturally scared of losing your nice-guy label. Well, the unpleasant truth is that you're only going to get through this properly by losing that label. Your wife will loathe you and think you are the devil incarnate. She is going to seriously hate you. Almost all WS's hate their BS's when their happy fantasy is disrupted. Are you ready to be viscerally HATED?

You are also being tender about social embarrassment. This was something that might have mattered before, but you are going to have to toughen up and get used to the idea of being someone looked at sideways and talked about behind your back. There is going to have to be some serious disruption to a lot of people's lives if you are to fight throught this. You may have to put people on the spot - and a lot of them will let you down and project their shame onto you - and you may have to make yourself hugely unpopular in order to get the affair exposed and proper consequences felt.

This is UNFAIR.

Deeply unfair. You are going to have to go through agonies and all because of someone else's lack of self-control. You do not deserve this misery. You should not have to be going through this. But the fact is that you are. You are not going to get through this without setting boundaries and standing firm against pressure.

So, first things first. Get your mind in gear, and establish exactly where you stand and what you need to get. Please don't be seduced by pleasant weekends and hugs. They mean nothing. You are not looking to get your wife to like you better than OM, you are looking to protect yourself and your kids from being exploited and destroyed by two people who are fathoms deep in lust-propelled fog. They are not going to wake up and say "Oh, JS is such a good man...how could we ever do this to him?" You are going to have to be Mr. Mean for a while, and hold out for your full value.

You can do that, can't you?

TogetherAlone

My many thanks to all who have posted here. I really appreciate the suggestions and I know they are right on track. I am so glad I found this forum.

I know now what I need to do.... I am in the process of getting metally prepared for WWIII and making sure my ducks are in a row before the fun begins.

Just one queston... I was reading SAA and saw no real mention of exposure as part of plan A.. Am I missing something?


Thanks again,

(soon to be) Mr. Mean

This man is paid and supervised by a board? If your wife wants you to approve it and grant permission, then I think it is only fair that this relationship goes before the board.

Do others on the board want this guy instructing kids, taking them to swim meets and carrying this on with a board member?

I think not. Expose to the board.

Susan

Well a lot has happened since my last post. I discovered that there is way more contact with OM going on than I thought and it is definitely a full fledged PA.

So... I pulled out the heavy artillery yesterday and exposed to her parents, the team president, and one other influential board member. All three parties were shocked and I know I can count on their support.

As expected.. WW is mad as hell at me and an emotional wreck... She told me this may have been the final straw and that she can't understand how this could possibly make things better. She was devastated and spent most of the evening crying and on the phone with OM who I am hoping will lose his job over this... He came over and picked her up and went somewhere for a short while ( I don't know where).

I also talked to OM earlier yesterday ... I called and asked him once again step aside and let me work to save my marriage and his answer was "you're a spineless little weasle"... and this was before he know about the exposure. Talking to him was pointless and he just hurled insult after insult and finally I just said F U and hung up.

WW wife said something disturbing which is that in a way she is glad that it's out in the open now so she can end the secrecy.

My god, what a mess.. I hope this works... at this point I'm not sure I did the right thing.. I keep thinking about my poor kids.. I don't want them to get hurt.

Her anger and panic (and even 'relief' that the secret is out) is standard and straight out of the script.

JS..

Now is when you need to come here for guidance. You need to Plan A. Nothing that your wife has said or done is "new" to anyone who has spent time on the boards. Your wife and her A are not special or different than anyone elses. They all go the same way. You have exposed, now plan A. No LB's beging preparing for a life without her. No talking about anything to do with the affair except ending it. Anything more than that is a waste of your breath...

Again I say keep coming here. Follow everyone's advice. There are plan A experts, plan B experts, lawyers, you name it they're on here and can help keep your sanity at a time when you're going "off the deep end"..

Good luck

Sorry you're going throught this, JSinSD, but console yourself that most of this is predictable. Your wife is furious, as predicted, and she is quoting chapter and verse from the WS script. This is, of course, the last straw, the final nail in the coffin of your marriage. Soon she'll tell you that she was beginning to have some hopes for your future, but now you've managed to destroy them. You wrecked everything just as she was beginning to turn towards you! Now she knows she was right to cheat on you. Now it's clear that OM is a Far Better Man than you. What a nasty piece of work you are. She was right about you all along.

JS, peel yourself a grape and tick the boxes as she comes out with her gems. This is what they all do. See, you've messed up the pleasant fantasy she'd contructed with OM, in which True Love, and tortured apartness, and the utter nobility of their hidden love was an unassailable truth. Now, they have to cope with a version of their story which they hadn't planned for - one in which they are not romantic heroes, but selfish losers. One in which The World looks at them without respect, in which they are being judged. And they don't like it one bit. They will squirm and twist and scream and bully to try to get their fantasy back.

Hang on.

This could get even nastier. Next, you will probably find that some of your 'allies' will waver and even switch sides. Because the miserable truth is that many 'upstanding' individuals are only upstanding when they are not under pressure and when their morality is not being put to the test. Some will fail the test, and you will learn who you can genuinely trust.

This is a nightmare We know that. Be strong.

TogetherAlone

Well so much has happened since my last post and I wish I had the time to write about all the details... but I will just do my best to give the readers digest version and current status.

I exposed about a week ago today to a couple people on the board and her parents. As expected she freaked and got so mad and told me that my little exposure operation had definitely backfired and that now she had nobody to turn to except OM.

As the days went on I continued to monitor her activities and guess what? she did not change her behavior one bit and she has been sneaking around during the day to be with him. He went away for about 4 days over the weekend and I found out that she was going to his apartment while he was gone to feed his kittens!... While there she snooped and found that he had arranged a 'social outing' with another woman... She doesn't know that I know about it but I know she was very very upset about it.. It all sounds so familiar! What irony.

Anyway things were very icy between my wife and I because of the exposure thing. I told her that I was pretty much at the end of the rope and that I could not continue much longer and that she would have to consider the very likely outcome of divorce.. and she reiterated that she did not want a divorce (because of the kids).. and if she did want a divorce she would have done it a long time ago...before OM came along. She wants to stay together solely for the kids sake and she wants to be my freind.. yada yada yada and she wants to keep OM as a boyfriend. Basically she wants to be a cake eater.

Of course I said that I will never ever accept that and that her relationship with OM must end. (Selfish demand? I think it's a reasonable request.)

Anyway in one of our many conversations I told her... as a friend.. and as an 'unbiased' observer that I know OM's type an that his type could never ever be faithful to her.. and she admitted that she knew that. And then something happened.. she started to open up about OM's OW and how it was bothering her... she even joked that I should go spy on him to see what he was up to Sunday night. We had a good time laughing about the insanity of the whole situation and before we went to bed Sunday night I told her to tell him (jokingly)..."If he's cheating on you tell him I'm going to kick is a##.." She thought that was pretty funny. Next morning she wanted a hug.

Well that all sounds nice and I think I did score back some compassion points lost as a result of exposure..but in my monitoring of her activities Monday I learned that she went straight to his apartment when I went to work. Even though I suspected she would do so I felt even more betrayed now (probably because of the bonding from the night before)...

I started to lose control (yesterday was a bad day) and started researching local divorce attorneys. When she finally returned my call I told her what I was up to and she said.. "no, no, please don't do that.. I don't want that for the kids." I told her my boundaries again. We talked about the similarities of her actions and that of a drug addict.. and she seemed to understand the correlation. She asked if there was a chemical substitute that could help her in withdrawal.. which of course there is none. She said she didn't know if she could end her affair.

Adding stress to the situation was the fact that her parents are in town along with other extended family and we had to entertain and I agreed to paint the picture of the happy family. Her parents know about the whole situation but decided to confront her when the other family members leave.

Last night I basically laid out an ultimatum (which I know is not the MB way),.. but she does really seem to respond to the threat of divorce. Today I asked if she would end it (the affair).. and her answer was "she would do what ever was necessary for the kids"... I asked again "will you end it?".. and her answer was "I will do whatever is necessary for the kids.". sounding like a broken record. I said frankly I didn't beleive her and she was not committing to any specific action. She finally said "OK I will end it"... I said OK and I went to work.

Just for fun I called OM and left him a message stating that W had said she was really ending it this time.. and I asked him again to back off and stay out of our lives. He did not return my call (big surprise).

So today I did not snoop (yet) but I called her and asked what was going on and she said she had told him that it was over.. and I said that's great news and that I would support her through this difficult time. She said thanks.

OK... that's where we're at. Do I beleive she has ended it? not a chance. Will I snoop and find out that she's lying? no doubt.

Sorry for the long post... and beleive me I left out many of the details.

The saga continues. I am starting to research proper implementation of plan B.

Thanks again to everyone on this site. So glad I found it.

JSINSD

NO, don't LET ANYONE who is so misguided here tell you that this is a SELFISH demand. NOT AT ALL. Have some self respect, that is a minimum that should be required. Think of it as needing a 2.0 just to stay in school. NC is the "minumum" that should be required for you to keep recovery efforts alive.

Sour..

Setting boundaries require that you change. (i.e. remove yourself from harm)

Selfish demands require the other person to change. (ie an attempt to control someone else into changing to please you)

Lemonman ~


This is very hurtful.

Sorry, that was not directed at anyone in particular, and if you feel offended, I apologize for that. I will change the wording as to not be as offensive. I personally think demanding NC (said nicely ofcourse) should be a neccesity. No, Steve Harley and you may not agree with this, but that is just what I think.....and you know what, I can't change what I feel is right b/c someelse said so. Personally BR, I think you make some great posts, but honestly, I have to worry about you deep down inside, because you are still living and functioning dysfunctionally with an active alcoholic are you not?. You no doubt have wisdom, but I wonder how much of this stuff you have had to bend and ply into what you think is "marriage building" to coexist with your husband who is suffering from a disease. Surely, you can't tell me that living with an ongoing and active alcoholic is produtive to your long term mental and physical health? Is it really?

Sour...

JS,

Pep recommended you contact one of the Harley's for counseling - please consider it.

You're going to need some MC to help you both get through this in order to rebuild your marriage. You can't possibly accept her attitude that she's doing this for your children.

It only really works if she's doing this for herself, you, and the "you" that is a couple. Anything less is a failure for all of you.

Check out the counseling link...on this website - Steve Harley is great with WS's. And even better he'll guide you with your own plan to save your marriage and your family.

Lemon ~ I don't expect your answers to be the same as my answers, you and I have different lives, and different experiences.

I don't usually post without putting alot of thought and effort into what I want to say. I have survived infidelity. I hope that I can share something of what I learned with those coming after me.

I understand that in your eyes, while I remain married to an alcoholic, that anything I say is suspect. That's ok. Could you just refrain from blatant crude disrespect?

Yes, the blatant disresepct can be witheld.....you'll have to give me a mulligan on this one, as it is hotter than hell here, and I am sweating like a whore in church. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I never said that you being married to an alcoholic made you "suspect". On the contrary, I think I have had more than a few posts that have praised your posts. SO please take that back as you are dead wrong there. You are putting words into my mouth. What I want to really know, is given the fact that you obviously have alot of wisdom and offer excellent insight to many people here, how do you reconcile in YOUR MIND and HEART the dysfunction that MUST be a FACT of your daily life for you to remain living with an ACTIVE abusing alcoholic. I don't think the advice you give is "suspect" (you used this word, not me by the way), but I think asking you this question is by no means out of bounds. Even the Harleys themselves have said countless times that these principles were not intended to be applied to abusive or substance abusive situations. Am I wrong about that? Enlighten me on this. Yeah, this question may seem tough for me to ask you, but I think it is fair nonetheless.

Lemon ~ I think we've threadjacked enough (sorry JSINSD).

I answered this question for you already in a previous thread. I don't have a marriage building marriage, as that is impossible with an active addict. That doesn't mean that I can't apply many of the concepts to improve the marriage I do have, and to help me be a better wife and person. And the fact is, that even while an active alcoholic, Steve Harley *did* have a huge impact on my husband and our subsequent recovery.

If I didn't answer it well enough for you then, bump the original thread up and ask.

Well... you did kinda hijack the thread but that's OK.. I knew I might stir up a debate with my comment about 'NC=selfish demand?' (I was following your other thread and I tend to agree with Lemonman)

Anyway, I thought I'd get my original posting bumped back up by restating it here:

Well so much has happened since my last post and I wish I had the time to write about all the details... but I will just do my best to give the readers digest version and current status.

I exposed about a week ago today to a couple people on the board and her parents. As expected she freaked and got so mad and told me that my little exposure operation had definitely backfired and that now she had nobody to turn to except OM.

As the days went on I continued to monitor her activities and guess what? she did not change her behavior one bit and she has been sneaking around during the day to be with him. He went away for about 4 days over the weekend and I found out that she was going to his apartment while he was gone to feed his kittens!... While there she snooped and found that he had arranged a 'social outing' with another woman... She doesn't know that I know about it but I know she was very very upset about it.. It all sounds so familiar! What irony.

Anyway things were very icy between my wife and I because of the exposure thing. I told her that I was pretty much at the end of the rope and that I could not continue much longer and that she would have to consider the very likely outcome of divorce.. and she reiterated that she did not want a divorce (because of the kids).. and if she did want a divorce she would have done it a long time ago...before OM came along. She wants to stay together solely for the kids sake and she wants to be my freind.. yada yada yada and she wants to keep OM as a boyfriend. Basically she wants to be a cake eater.

Of course I said that I will never ever accept that and that her relationship with OM must end. (Selfish demand? I think it's a reasonable request.)

Anyway in one of our many conversations I told her... as a friend.. and as an 'unbiased' observer that I know OM's type an that his type could never ever be faithful to her.. and she admitted that she knew that. And then something happened.. she started to open up about OM's OW and how it was bothering her... she even joked that I should go spy on him to see what he was up to Sunday night. We had a good time laughing about the insanity of the whole situation and before we went to bed Sunday night I told her to tell him (jokingly)..."If he's cheating on you tell him I'm going to kick is a##.." She thought that was pretty funny. Next morning she wanted a hug.

Well that all sounds nice and I think I did score back some compassion points lost as a result of exposure..but in my monitoring of her activities Monday I learned that she went straight to his apartment when I went to work. Even though I suspected she would do so I felt even more betrayed now (probably because of the bonding from the night before)...

I started to lose control (yesterday was a bad day) and started researching local divorce attorneys. When she finally returned my call I told her what I was up to and she said.. "no, no, please don't do that.. I don't want that for the kids." I told her my boundaries again. We talked about the similarities of her actions and that of a drug addict.. and she seemed to understand the correlation. She asked if there was a chemical substitute that could help her in withdrawal.. which of course there is none. She said she didn't know if she could end her affair.

Adding stress to the situation was the fact that her parents are in town along with other extended family and we had to entertain and I agreed to paint the picture of the happy family. Her parents know about the whole situation but decided to confront her when the other family members leave.

Last night I basically laid out an ultimatum (which I know is not the MB way),.. but she does really seem to respond to the threat of divorce. Today I asked if she would end it (the affair).. and her answer was "she would do what ever was necessary for the kids"... I asked again "will you end it?".. and her answer was "I will do whatever is necessary for the kids.". sounding like a broken record. I said frankly I didn't beleive her and she was not committing to any specific action. She finally said "OK I will end it"... I said OK and I went to work.

Just for fun I called OM and left him a message stating that W had said she was really ending it this time.. and I asked him again to back off and stay out of our lives. He did not return my call (big surprise).

So today I did not snoop (yet) but I called her and asked what was going on and she said she had told him that it was over.. and I said that's great news and that I would support her through this difficult time. She said thanks.

OK... that's where we're at. Do I beleive she has ended it? not a chance. Will I snoop and find out that she's lying? no doubt.

Sorry for the long post... and beleive me I left out many of the details.

The saga continues. I am starting to research proper implementation of plan B.

Thanks again to everyone on this site. So glad I found it.

JSINSD

Hi JSINSD ~

Ok, so you are spending alot of time attempting to control your situation with "reasonable requests" and threats of divorce.

Your wife hasn't ended anything. And I can tell you from experience that what you are doing won't motivate her to end the affair.

So what is your plan?

Update.... she said she ended it.. I told her I knew about the cell phone he had provided and she said she would give it back. She said that it is really ended this time and the OM was on board with the plan.

Well.. I just discovered today that they are together at this moment as I expected. She apparently will not and can not end it.

I don't know what to do. I've been trying to call her on both her phones and she's not answering.

Plan B or Plan D? I have no idea what to do. Any advice is welcome.

Thank you

As my old football coach said "Damn boy do something wrong right once in your life." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Either plan B or plan D your call, but do it and do it with authority. Neither is a comfortable choice, but both of them are better than what is going on.

Your move...MAKE it. You are on the clock here and your threats of divorce have lost all sting. Your statements of boundaries have been heard, acknowledged and duely processed and then put in the circular file.

Time to do something wrong...right.

God Bless,

JL