"I am waiting for and expecting to find some concrete evidence of a renewed physical affair and when that happens I will implement plan B"

Just curious how do you expect to discover this new evidence,for your wife seems to have covered her tracks very well. Short of a PI you have a long unhappy wait ahead of you unless she all of a sudden gets stupid.

Also you stated this awhile back...."Snooping has revealed that my wife and OM's plan is play it cool and quiet for three weeks.. until school starts. The idea is to make me think there is no contact and that the A is over. Of course once the kids go back to school, W will have all kinds of free time and they can startup their daily rendevous again."

It looks like her plan is still on schedule and doesn't believe you are going anywhere!! Good Luck!!

I'm considering a few options.... like a PI.. I just need to figure out how to cover my own tracks (with regard to expenses) since ww pays all the bills.

Welcome back;



NO WAY. Why don't you just give your house key to slimy Coach. He will be in your house in no time. If there has to be a separation then she leaves. Let her face the consequences of her sleazy affair. If you move out...you lose. She has the kids, Coach, the house...she could easily just fence ride or decide she gives up and file for divorce. In either case, she gets to try out the relationship "to see if she can feel this way forever" without interference from you and right in front of the children.


Just an idea, but if you are painted into a corner (she won't move and keeps doing this) then perhaps you can encourage her to spend the night out (maybe she'll do this on her own with very little encouragement), then you call up the PODS company and have a storage unit delivered to your driveway, put her stuff in it neatly, and change the house locks. Here's the link: www.pods.com Do it on Saturday morning and have the kids away at your moms or friends house. She will have to wait till Monday to hire a lawyer and file a lawsuit. As far as you are concerned she moved out and you did as you were directed. If the police get involved you explain your wife is having an affair and she abandoned you and the children the other day and you both agreed to this. Now she is having second thoughts. Tell them you have retained a lawyer and her lawyer should call him on Monday. Hopefully, they will direct her to leave and that will be that. At least she will know you are serious and hopefully start begging for another chance. (It is her turn to beg). Oh yea, if the cops make you leave or let her remain with you remember to retain the POD key with you so she can't get to her stuff or exchange her stuff for yours.


Additionally, why on earth are those kids in the same swim program with this loser Coach. Your wife is no longer on the Swim Team Board and you should not care if that is her big social outlet. Let her go hang out there all she wants BY HERSELF. They are your kids too and your kids, whether they know it or not, should NOT be exposed to the man that had adulterous sex with their mother. It is horrible that you are allowing her to have her way. I know you are only trying to appease her. Maybe you think that by not rocking the boat you can get her back; but, it does not work like that. She will not respect you if she can walk all over you with her demands. Eat the money and pull them from the team.

Another thought. Did you not buy a voice activated DIGITAL voice recorder at radio shack this summer? If not, do it now. Get a ton of batteries too and hide the thing in her car. Private Investigators are very, very expensive and the information is so readily discoverable for about $80. Even if you do not get loser Coach and wife on the phone you will get wife and girlfriend discussing the whole situation. That conversation is usually better to take because it is more honest. WW and OM conversations are complete fog babble and difficult to swallow.

Finally - you should be exposing this affair to all the other mothers and fathers at the swim club that are supposedely her friends and might have influence over her. Do not threaten this as threats have no effect other than to warn WW/Coach and allow them to prepare the battlefield. They will just go around and make sure they tell everyone you're the pyscho jealous type and Coach/WW are just friends before you even get a chance to expose. You also should start re-exposing from scratch. If you are at square one might as well Plan A from square one. Expose in one swoop for full effect.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

P.S. - Take control of your money lest you get screwed. Change your auto-deposit. Cancel joint card, separate joint accounts and pull out a stack of cash to stash for PI's, legal fees, etc. (let WW speculate what you are spending it on). You must always protect your backside in case of eventually divorce. Do not trust your wife to protect you and/or your family's financial well being. She is a lunatic right now and you are behaving like a lunatic if you contrinue to trust her. Beside restraints put on finances may yank her attitude to attention a bit. Remember, you are being judged by your actions...so do not threaten to do this...just do it, then tell her it is done. This is not up for debate. Your threats are no longer taken seriously. You are the husband and protector of this family. Start protecting it.

P.S.S. - for now you are still in Plan A so do this all calmly and without LBing to the extent possible.

Obviously you don't really care about saving your M. That is the only explanation I can come up with for your allowing your kids to be coached by the guy who had sex with your wife. You are in deep denial and too appeasing. You are big time enabling the affair.

When you are really serious about saving your M, let us know.

I apologize for the hard 2x4, but I really want you to have a chance to save your marriage. I feel you need to wake up from your own fog.

JD....time for you to step up if you expect to save your M. This will not just end....So what if she gets a bill for a PI....find one that takes a credit card....I would find it ironic if she "found" a PI charge on a cc bill...

I agree with Wonderings; you are the protector of the family. After your W recovers from her former addiction to Coach, she will look back on the whole episode with full clarity and utter gratefulness to you. She will realize how you heroically saved your marriage and family despite her delusional resistance. She will applaud you for standing up with the strength of two people. You may worry that if you boldly put your foot down she will run from you and never come back, or she will hate you forever. You must realize that will likely not be the case. Everybody loves Nice People, but they love self-respecting and strong Nice People even more.

A quick aside. I fully believe you are a genuinely nice, warm-hearted guy who just wants to please everybody. Your actions over the last few months show your patience, your love for your wife and family, and your determination to save your marriage. You are no doubt well-liked and admired as a good father and friend by many people who know you. So, I must ask, how are you with disciplining your children? Do you have trouble setting boundaries and enforcing consequences? Do you just want to be seen as a "nice" dad? In addition, how much free-reign have you given your wife over the last many years of your marriage? Does she feel that she is always the one getting her own way, the one with the final say, or that she can talk you into anything? Do you wish to ensure the marriage constantly "runs smoothly" and try to even out any bumps at all costs? If you feel defensive about these questions, or if you answered yes, then you may possibly have undermined your own intentions of being a well-liked, easygoing, peace-keeper. Always saying "okay sure" is no way to gain true respect. Instead, it may just show weakness, apathy or low self-esteem. You already mentioned before that you may be allowing yourself to be a doormat. Please understand I am not meaning to criticize your peace-keeping nature. In fact, it is a wonderful quality when used positively. In addition, I congratulate you on making it this far and for doing such a good job of trying to save your marriage in a "friendly" manner, as well as go out of your comfort zone to do seemingly ugly and unkind things such as exposing the affair, spying on your wife, and making NC demands and D threats. For that, we readers, your family, relatives and friends, will always remember your brave, patient, and optimistic approach to saving your marriage thus far.

I could be totally off the mark, here. I just seemed to catch a vibe through your writing style that you are a nice guy, although sometimes maybe a little bit of a push-over. It seems very familiar to me, for my husband is also a "peace-keeper" personality type (as defined in a book by Taylor Hartman called, "The Color Code"). I'm sure you have your hands full reading other books right now though. Do forgive me if I am wrong or if I have insulted you in any way.

Back to you being the protector of the family. Now that you know that being nice and being strong are not mutually exclusive, and that they can actually make a great combination, you can feel confident in moving forward with "wrangling" your wife back. Seriously, you really need to take the bull by the horns and get tough. You've been nice long enough. Now, you will be tough, but in a nice way. This is also how other addicts are handled.

Isn't it great that Plan A embodies these two qualities of being tough and nice at the same time? You have done a good job with plan A so far. You have been trying to meet you W's emotional needs and be a good dad. You stated the boundaries: NC with Coach. You have done good to enforce consequences: exposing them, spying, threats. However, it is terribly unfortunate that your W is in so deep that you are still unable to get through to her.

I agree with Wonderings and the other last posts that you must put your foot down! It is time for heavy artillery: new swim club for kids, kick W out of house. Remember that in your mind, kicking her out is just a small step to getting your W's attention and eventually getting her back. On the other hand, in her mind it will seem radical, totally unfair and make her temporarily hate you. However, you will have confidence and patience in knowing that Plan B is just temporary—all she has to do to come back home is truly NC the Coach. Don't worry about taking such strong measures, you will still end up as the nice guy. It is very likely that your W will snap out of it after being away from the kids, the sanctuary of your home, the security of a loving H, and she will get to know OM better and his slimeball personality. Keep you hopes up that after she wakes up, comes home and truly NC's, then you can both go into recovery.

Stay positive. Everybody will remember that you were considerate of your W and kids' feelings. The seemingly ugly and unkind tactics are really healthy and necessary steps to saving your marriage. Basically, all you are trying to do is wake your W up and smell the stench of the mess she's made for you and your family and social circle. Since there truly is no real love or future for W and Coach Slimeball, you are not interfering in your W's destiny, you are simply protecting her well-being and saving her from her mind-altering addiction. Few addicts ever thank you before forcing them into re-hab, but many thank you afterwards.

On a lighter note, away from talking about the A, I also agree with Harley's advice from when you met with him. Keep on trying to figure out why your W was unhappy in the marriage in the first place and repair it. Also, keep trying to meet her emotional needs and make the marriage seem like an attractive alternative to OM. In presenting her with your plan to be a better husband and make her a happier wife, encourage her to imagine your future together, if you can get her to participate (otherwise write it down alone and then show it to her, hang it on the refrigerator). Write down your goals together. Paint a picture in your mind of your future together, and better yet, actually make a collage of clippings that exemplifies your vision together. One year from now, how will you spend your spare time together? Will you still be living in the same house, driving the same cars? What kind of hobbies will each of you have? How much time will you be spending together and spending with the kids? What activities will you be doing? This is a tactic taken from a book by Dr. Jan Hoistad called, "Big Picture Partnering."

If you have a tangible list of goals or pictures of your ideal future, it may help her better see herself as a wife and mother. From that list of big picture goals, narrow it down to small steps that you both plan on taking to reach your dreams. If your goal is for your family to eat fresh tomatoes at dinner, maybe a small step is planting a garden together. Or it could be joining a class or community group as a couple or a family. The possibilities are endless. After you write down your small steps, pinpoint activities that you can do this week to help drive you toward your goals. If it is the garden idea, then drive to the store and buy some supplies. You catch the drift. Create a tangible and realistic action plan with specific action items or tasks. She loves plans right? Maybe even give her some assignments for her to do so she will feel like she is contributing to the progress of reaching your dreams together. This will also give you the much-needed opportunity to praise her for her accomplishments, for completing the task or assignment. You mentioned before she loves being acknowledged for her work.

Finally, I have one last question. We have all heard your side of the story. You seem like the victim and she is in the FOG. This may be true. But, is there is anything at all that you feel you might have done to make W sad or angry? You said before that you placed work before her and the kids. Is there anything else? It might make you feel better to take half responsibility for the break-down on the road of marriage and share with us the root of the problem. Where were you lacking? Where was she lacking?

If work was the only thorn, do you have some ideas on how to put it third and her first? You could then share with her your plan to help renew her hope in you and her life with you. Is working less hours an option? Is changing jobs to one with less stress, less responsibility, less drive time, less business trips or less pay an option? On the flip side, is there a hobby that your W might like to pursue in her spare time (besides involvement in the kids' extracurricular activities) that makes her feel important or helps her follow her own dreams, such as a part-time job, community or volunteer programs, continuing education or even a racquetball or quilting club?

Give her something to look forward to in her life with you! And don't forget: Be Tough But Nice. You can do it!

Hotheelz

Thank you so much Hotheelz, Wonderings, and others who have taken the time to read through this growning thread and have helped me make sense of this mess of a marriage I'm in.

The last two days have been emotionally exhausting as WW and I have had some very heated discussions. She is very headstrong and absolutely 100% steadfast in her complete insistance that the affair is over. She deeply resents my attempts to 'control' her now by saying she and Coach can't be friends. I have been equally steadfast and demanding that the friendship can not be. So we are in a stalemate.

I am exhausted at the moment and will take a few days to think things over.

Hotheelz I would like to go into more detail about the factors in the marriage that led up to this situation.. and I will do so when I have a bit of time. Thank you for your interest.. I would like to start planning for recovery and making a better marraige... Whether it happens or not at least I will know I tried.

As far as kicking WW out of the house and yanking the kids from the team... I will do this only if I find evidence of renewed PA... But as long as she so adamantly insists that the affair is over and I have not a shred of evidence to the contrary the timing for heavy artillery isn't right. I would just come off as a crazy jealous husband and I doubt it would have the desired affect... I need the proof. If I get some sort of proof then mass exposure coupled with plan B will happen immediately.

Thanks again.

JSinSD

For your marriage to recover, there has to be no contact between the affairees. That includes removing your kids from the team, and moving out of state if that is what it takes. I'm afraid you are setting yourself up for a terrible disappointment.

Good attorneys ???????????? Isn't that an oxymoron ?

Joke <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

UVA:

You a cavilear?

Nice, succinct..."dead on" 2 X 4......the original poster should "feel" that one and realize the true compassion that this 2 X 4 actually holds.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not thoroughly familiar with your sitch, but you don't need "hard evidence" of a PA. It's very clear that WW does not know the pain she is causing you, feels no remorse, and is expecting you to roll over and play dead.

That's enough for some tough love stuff. If you've been LB'ing, it's not the time for Plan B. On the other hand, I don't see much alternative. I kind of like Mr. Wondering's POD idea, myself.

JD..don't mean o gang up on you here but I have to...

Be very wary of your wife becoming angry over the "just being friends"..and being controled. You are not being controlling because you have established a BOUNDRY! The anger thing really hits a cord because my XW got very angry when I accused her...and her OM had just left the hotel room!!! She is going right by the WS book....

Tell your wife this.."It is unacceptable for you to think that it is OK to have contact with a man you have broken your vows with." Stop being a nice guy, she's playing you in a big way. The comment about attorneys is a biggy.
Lemon is dead on..good lawyer? You need to protect yourself or you will get taken out in a big way...it has become inevitable

What I am truly flabbergasted at is the fact that he is still the swim team coach! I guess this is a swim-team based on the value of sports, training and competition to develop positive aspects in a child rather than an all-out get the results professional team. Is the board happy with its staff having an affair with a member of the board (past or present) and/or the parent of its protégés?

Would the board let things lie if he were a child molester? How will they support your kids if the affair leads to a divorce and it becomes common knowledge “the coach caused it”? Are they going to send other fathers warnings to not let their wife’s pick the kids up after practice since they might get hit on?

I would demand the board remove him or give him a formal reprimand and forbid him contact with WW. It will be one more step in making it harder for the affair to continue and from what I read into his character this guy does not have the persistence to stay if things get tough.

Hello, how are you hanging in there? Thank you for your reply earlier. My message is simple this time, and it mirrors the majority of other followers here. Let's refresh our memories with this quote:


That sounds like an attempt to stall for time and an excuse for non-action. Are you being chicken? A scaredy cat? It seems that you may be sitting back and doing nothing. Taking a wait-and-see attitude. Maybe you have faith in someone higher to call the shots or save you. You seem to be hoping the story will write itself, and that it will have a happy ending. News flash: you have laid down your pen and your wife and Coach are now writing the story their way. And they are the ones really calling the shots. How can you allow your W and kids to see Coach Slimeball every day? No wonder you are emotionally drained.

This is the point I would like to make:

Do you not fully understand the difference between PA and [color:"red"]NC[/color]? Confusing the two is a terrible mistake. I must give in and agree with the rest of the followers that you are quite possibly in Denial. Renewed PA is beside the point. It is irrelevant. PA already happened and the damage is done. What matters is she is not willing to [color:"red"]NC[/color] right now (remember she insists on still seeing the "friend" Coach). That is grounds for forcing her to [color:"red"]NC[/color]. You must yank the kids from swim team, move out of state, whatever is necessary...

It is all up to you at this point! You must do it alone. You must be strong. She cannot help you or help save the marriage while in the FOG. And [color:"red"]NC[/color] is the only way for her to get out of the FOG and come back to you. You cannot wait around for her to finally have a rational thought or [color:"red"]NC[/color] willingly. You must force her to [color:"red"]NC[/color] immediately. Time is of the essence.

[color:"red"]NC[/color] is the only way to save the marriage. ...Hurry.

Please hear our group cries! We want to help you!

Good luck.

I don't know how to force NC. I've tried beleive me.. How do you force NC?

Expose to the Board. Put your foot down. Absolutely no contact. You or him. If him, she must leave. Now. She needs a heavy dose of reality.

Drive her into his arms? Gee, what if she actually had to rely on this guy the way she has to rely on you. Use your power. She's walking all over you and you are letting it happen. How can she respect you for that?

JDINSD,

IMO, you do not need to argue with WW to convince her this is the right thing to do. Deep down she knows it and her arguments back are pure adulterated maninpulation. Friends can become lovers but lovers can never become friends.

You had mentioned NC as your personal boundry and now you have let that go. My own personal boundary was I simply refused to be in a loveless marriage. I continued to Plan A through the contact but after a couple months Plan B was inevitable, then D. Perhaps you won't sound so much like a "jealous" husband if you stop hammering NC and phrase it more along the lines of accepting no less than a loving marriage wherein your wife protects you by going to no contact, forever.

Additionally, please read Suzet's entire thread about BS operating from strength.

BS Operating from Strength

I feel you are coming to a critical time in your relationship so I hope you can spend more time here or with Steve Harley. It looked like you had her in withdrawal for a few weeks and lost your mind allowing your kids involvement with the swim team again. IMO, you should not be fully trusting your judgment when it comes to this stuff. Not that you are not intellegent, just that with important matters such as these it is prudent to seek independent advice before you act.

Mr. Wondering

ps - I wrote this earlier (about 11 am) and walked away before posting it. Hope it still applies

You asked how to force NC.

Just wondering, is moving to a new city an option? If so, then you could do that instead of kicking her out as the consequence.

Here is an idea to force NC.

1. Call a one-on-one meeting with your wife.
2. State the purpose of the meeting. "This meeting is to agree on a win-win solution to your previous affair with Coach."
3. Ask her to state her idea of what the best solution is so she feels she gets a voice in the matter. Whatever she says, just nod but do not respond. An argument must be avoided.
4. When she is done, state your solution. "The best solution is for you and the kids to have NO CONTACT with Coach because of the previous affair. Once that occurs, then we can try to re-build a happy marriage and family together. In this way, everybody wins."
5. At this point she will again try to start an argument by attacking your idea and fighting for her idea.You must nod but do not respond. Just let her keep saying her stuff to get it all out. Remember keep your mouth closed.
6. When the coast is clear, say "I am the protector of this family. Since we cannot agree then I am forced to make the final decision that I see is best for everybody."
7. She will again start fighting. You do not have to defend your decision or make her understand why. Do not give in to saying anything at all.
8. At this point, without a word, show her the poster board you have drawn up in advance that reads:
[color:"red"]
House Rules

1. You will have NO CONTACT with Coach (not at swim team, not as friends)
2. Kids will have NO CONTACT with Coach (new swim team or new sport)
3. We will work on building a happy marriage and family

Consequences

1. If you do not follow the above rules you must leave the house.
[/color]
9. If she doesn't tear it up first, hang the poster with the house rules on the wall, maybe in your master bedroom or bathroom if the kids won't see it. At least let her watch you neatly store it behind the dresser or under the bed.
10. Then leave the room.

Now that you have made everything crystal clear, you must follow through with your end of the deal. She is responsible for house rule # 1. You are responsible for house rule # 2 and consequence #1. It can be assumed that she will not fulfill her end of the bargain. So, you must follow through with removing the kids from the team (I hope the team will let you do that without her consent). You must also be prepared to kick her out. Again seek legal advice first. I like Wonderings saturday morning public storage unit idea as well. However, if she knows you want her to leave for breaking the house rules, it may be hard to make a surprise saturday attack. Or, best-case scenario, she could actually take off without your knowing because she is so furious and stay at Coach's place for a few days. Keep in mind, this whole process is supposed to take you one step closer to getting her back. Stay tough. We are betting on her finding out Coach isn't so great once she is left to fend for herself or rely on him.

Just an idea.

Have your kids ever done something they know is not allowed? When this happens you warn them of the consequences. If they do it again and you don’t stand by your threat you can bet they will do it again and again.

Your wife is exactly the same. As long as she has the idea she has some leeway she will not commit to NC. Take away the leeway and she will commit OR choose the OM. At this stage choosing the OM might be inevitable, but then you can start concentrating on you and rebuild your life.

What you have to do is:
Clear and definite NC terms with the consequences spelled out. Be prepared to enforce the consequences. If you say C = D then be prepared to go that way.

Do everything to make the option of staying with you feasible and attractive for your WW (Within reason. The option to stay with you and meet the OM is not reasonable!). Remember she will not stay with a man she doesn’t respect!

Do everything you can to make staying with OM as unattractive as possible. Can be anything from restrictions on the kids being around him if D to financial hardships. Punch low - this is a no gloves fight.

Do everything you can to force changes in present situation between WW and OM. That is why you MUST insist the swimming board either gives coach a formal warning with threat of dismissal or just a good old fashioned boot in the @ss. You mention OM has OW. Expose to her. Be prepared to expose to other parents. I admit that a betrayed husband is often the butt of jokes, but a man fighting for his family will always get my respect.

Are these the ultimate goals?
[color:"purple"]

• Keeping together and rebuilding your marriage and family (Plan A) and
  
• Getting Coach out of the picture forever (NC)
  [/color]

Considering you have already tried standard techniques, including exposing them to the board and family, spying and catching her, confronting her, telling Coach to back off, making her resign from the board herself, demanding NC, and threatening D, heavier artillery must be pulled out. Using D as a real consequence is not an option at this point because neither of you actually want it so it would be an empty threat. She knows that and that's why she is walking all over you. Plus, D does not get you to the goal of keeping the marriage and family together and getting rid of Coach.

So you need to just make it impossible for her to see Coach while living in her house with her kids. The real choice she will be making is You, House & Kids vs. Coach Slimeball. After kicking her out, she will most likely come crawling back within no time, especially since Coach has an OW. Living out in the cold for a while will help make her choice clear. She's already said Coach isn't the family man type and doesn't make enough money and she doesn't want a life with him (at least not for 10 more years). You, House & Kids will be the clear winner once she wakes up.

It may seem that kicking her out doesn't help the NC mission because it gives her more freedom to see him. However, kicking her out does enforce the notion that hard consequences come with disobeying the NC rule. It is similar to taking away TV when a child doesn't do homework. It doesn't necessarily make them do their homework but it takes away their favorite privilege. You need to start taking away your WW's privileges. Examples: No swim team for her or the kids (she ruined it for her kids). No creature comforts of home after she is kicked out. No money after she is kicked out. No friends after you move to another city. Just wondering, is moving to a new city an option? If so, then you could do that instead of kicking her out as the consequence.

True discipline is made up of boundaries and consequences. One class of consequences is [color:"red"]taking away privileges.[/color] What are some possible consequences for breaking NC?

• How about taking away her credit cards and her car keys (have your in-laws help with errands and the kids).
  
• How about you learning to take over the finances, bills and shopping. Cut her off from the bank account.
  
• How about canceling all of her social engagements, hair appointments, etc.
  
• How about canceling your phone, cable or internet (just for a couple months until this thing blows over).
  
• How about sending her to her parents house for two weeks.
  
• How about you taking a leave or vacation from work and stay home with her and the kids for two weeks.
  
• How about taking away all her shoes except one pair (when she starts acting right she gets them back).
  
• How about taking away other favorite possessions such as jewelry, clothes, makeup, blowdryer, radio, icecream, etc. Take one away everyday from now until NC is successful. Remind her each time she discovers it and blows up how she can get it back.
  
• How about changing the locks and kicking her out. Your home and your kids are a privilage that she doesn't deserve right now.
  
• How about moving to another city. Her friends and social circle (and Coach) are also privilages that she doesn't deserve right now.

Other forms of consequences besides taking away privileges would be physical punishment (spankings) or natural consequences (such as not eating dinner equals going to bed hungry). Of course spankings are not appropriate. Ultimately, in your case D will be a natural consequence after all else fails to repair the marriage. You are probably going to learn a lot about discipline throughout all of this.

The way I see it, currently your three choices are:

1. Give In -- Allow [color:"red"]Coach[/color] (this is the one you are doing now)
2. Fight -- Force [color:"red"]NC[/color]
3. Give Up -- Get a [color:"red"]D[/color]

If this was a game of chess it would be your move. You decide. Will you take more time and beat around the bush or will you put her Cake-eating Queen A** in check!?

(Oops, can I say that in here?)

P.S. A friend suggested asking you if there may be any mind-altering substances involved on your wife's part (either prescribed or illegal). It may seem far-fetched but just think about it. Does she seem overly energetic or have any changes in physical appearance?