As when I first responded to FROZ when she was having a meltdown (about NOT getting answers to HER questions) .......I'll simply ask that question yet again ......have the Details that she's expressed a desire to know been Given??

And hopefully in a NON "Teeth Pulling" manner?

In my case,
My ability to get the answers to my questions (sometimes the same information just asked in a slightly different way) ....was definitely the KEY to my getting myself into some semblance of a "personal" recovery.

Sadly, I couldn't work on us, UNTIL I'd cobbled back together some form of "me".

I will always be grateful to my W for eventually getting past her own discomfort (indeed, her own fears) and Giving me what "I" needed .....even at cost to herself.

Truly, she is the ONLY Person who COULD give this gift to me .......and I (especially NOW) treat it as just that.

Then, after I got some of my own "self" more together ......I've been better able to reconnect and work on Recovering the M.

So yes, months of talking, questions, recaps, and HIGH emotion was what got us to HERE!

Was is comfortable or Fun for either of us?
Nope, not in the least.
But for me, it was necessary!
(Cause it Helped me ON SO MANY Levels ....above and Beyond the actual information itself).

IMO Recovery is similar to schooling in that its "progressive".
Each earlier step or stage must be addressed BEFORE moving onto later or more complicated levels.
Again, IMO simply talking about the A is one of the earliest and MOST Basic steps.

Unfortunately, If its not done,
it can delay or even prevent any of the stages that come later.

Good news for any WS is this though,
after 10 -11 or so months of talking about it .....we've had exactly 0 (that'd be ZERO) Affair talks in the last 18 months!
[As my W yells, Huurraay!]

Can a couple get Past infidelity without talking about the details?
I suppose.
Although The only times that method seems to work out, is when Neither of the parties wants to discuss them.

However,
I've yet to see a case of it working out Long term, when one of the partners WANTS to, but the other won't.

Best outcome in those cases seems to be an uneasy "stalemate" where NOT addressing the Elephant in the room seems to Hinder any true intimacy and creates a distance that just doesn't get bridged long term.

For the person desiring to talk about it, it leaves a barrier that is almost impossible to pierce and look beyond (cause to their perception its always there/always present ) ......in every conversation, day or event.

This is one issue that Time by itself, doesn't seem to heal.
In fact, it seems to make it worse.

By the way,
IF you've Already done this task .....then I congratulate you ON Helping your W and I guess we'll have to look for other avenues on how you can help her cope.

Anyway, enough from me .......hope you find the answers your looking for.
Getting back your Peace .......is priceless!

Hi patriot, I’m a FWS. Gotta admit I only skimmed through some of the other posts. I don't know if you want opinions from other FWS's, but just wanted to add my 2 cents worth:


“What would you do if I left you?” “From this argument, I am told I don’t love her enough and various other things.”
From my female point of view – she is asking for reassurance from you. I drive my H crazy this way. Instead of saying, “I need reassurance from you,” I ask all kinds of loaded questions that he doesn’t stand a chance to answer correctly (sort of like asking, “Do I look fat?”).

“I am too logical for this. Logic does not work well with feelings and vice versa.”

From what you wrote, I think you realize that just because you are “logical” and your W is “feeling driven” doesn’t mean that her feelings are not legitimate. I would say stop trying to be logical or try to convince her of anything. LISTEN, really listen, to what she says and concentrate on her view of this situation. Make her feelings be what is important, not what you think about her feelings.

There IS a pattern to the pain of a BS. My H was as devastated as your W, and there have been quite a lot of times when recovery seemed hopeless and impossible. It has been almost 3 years since d-day for us, and he just recently began to really lighten up and seem to be feeling happy again!

Side note: So as not to discourage you even further, I'll add that we did have a setback and a second d-day a year ago, though, which added to the length of our recovery. After a year of total NC, I confessed that contact with FOM had been longer than H knew, which is when I REALLY learned how important NC is! At that point, we disagreed about what contact meant, and the look on my H's face, and his reaction (almost left me that time, and now I don't blame him) finally convinced me that what my H believed and felt about the A was all that mattered - not what I believed or felt about the A.

One thing that has kept us going is believing that nothing is impossible with God, and to continue believing that God loves us and will help us when we surrender ourselves and our M to Him. He gives all of us free will, though, and your W has the right to make her own decisions about your M. Jesus said she CAN divorce you, but he didn’t say she HAS to divorce you, so there is hope.

I’m concerned about your W's depression as well. If you really believe she is a danger to herself, you can call a healthcare professional and have her put in the hospital if necessary. Hopefully it won't come to that, but she needs protection if she can't protect herself right now.

Whatever you do, stand by her. What I have decided to do to help my H is to be committed to him and love him, even if he decides he hates me and wants to D (which isn’t the case at the moment <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ). My decision changed MY attitude, which changed my behavior, and I’m suspicious that it is what has changed his mood and attitude as well, at least partly.

If you are determined to do everything you can to stay married, get ready for a very long rollercoaster ride. It is h*ll, but you gotta hang on and remember that it ain’t over until the ink is dry on D papers. Hang in there.

God bless,
Rose

((HUGS)) you guys

I asked Sprint to read this post, as I know for me - I couldn't show Sprint the way - in fact he left before he could figure out the way...and something in him has changed. And he is not the way he was even a month ago...or all those months that you knew him...when he was alot like Froz. I don't know if he can help - but I thought I would show him in case he could.

Hang in there Pat...I know all to well how it feels - keep showing her your commitment..

You guys are always in my prayers.

I will have more to say later, but this is what I have now.

Mel,
I wonder if you withheld the 'dipsh!t' adjective? And I wonder if it was difficult? :P You know... the "STOP TELLING HER TO GET OVER IT <adjective here>" line. Anyway, it was the first thing I thought of. Joking aside, I didn't think I was trying to tell her to get over it. I was trying to show her the future can be better. I see, however, that my discussions of the future are perceived this way. She has told me a number of times "stop trying to tell me to get over it" and I have been dumbfounded. I thought "but I never said that!!!" I see that just maybe I did. I will stop talking about how great our marriage could be if we try. I will simply support her. I want her to be whatever she wants to be. And I will love her and saty by her no matter.

top rope,
bud... I get what your shoveling. This is not completely up to me. Sure, if you want to ridicule me for screwing this up so far, you have that right. Hell, I do it all the time... so grab a paddle. I can not change that I WAS to much of a coward to just answer every single nasty question about the A. I will never say that I have done al the right things.... But she doesn't want to hear it all now either. Mix in the fact that most of the details about refined points, like "what did OW say specifically" are fuzzy beyond recognition at best. Blame me for that as well if you wish. Won't make it any less true. So, she is mad at me for not doing it when she 'could' and I am trapped because she doesn't 'want' it now.

Every thing continues to pile on everything else. To hear that 8 months is the rough time and this is normal helps. People said that crap about 6 months. Will someone tell me that 12 months is the real nightmare? I don't mean to be such a child, but wow... the mood at home, the mood on the phone, the obvious fear, disdain, love, hate, pain....etc. It is all WAY high on the chaos scale and it gets a little dicey up here.

I really want to support my wife. I know this to be true... but it is so hard to not 'fix' this for her. But fixing this for her is doing it my way. Not hers.

Sorry for my frustration and lack of patients. I really thought I was trying.

Pat, please try not to be defensive while reading all of the posts. These are people truly reaching out and trying to help you and Frozen. No one that I could see what saying you weren't trying. Obviously by opening yourself up here, you are.

Pat,

Sprint is currently writing back to you and that post should be here in a bit.

I know for me, there was abosulutely NOTHING I could do - and that was the hardest part, as we want to help the one we love and hurt heal.

I hope that Sprint can give you some insite?

**snort** Pat, you dipsh**! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Naw, I wouldn't call you that. I know your heart is in the right place and I give you great credit for that.

But "get over it" is exactly what I heard too. Because she can't possibly see the future until she deals with the past. She is not available for that trip just yet. She is too wounded.

So, have some patience and just remember this: if you feel bad right now, just imagine the hell she is enduring. And didn't volunteer for this. I think if you let her know you will support her in her recovery no matter how long it takes, she will be reassured enough to move forward.

Hang in there, Pat, you are a good guy and this will all work out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

p.s. please tell that MC to stop telling her to get over it, ok? Please!

Just my two cents, but I know both you and Froz, and I do care how things turn out.


So here goes.

Infidelity is something you cant go back on. Full stop.








The spacing is deliberate. Meant to create a pause for thought. You made choices that cause one LARGE fork in the BS's future. Shoud I stay or shoud I go?

We already know this.

SO. I dont know enough about ANYONE's situation other than my own to talk about them. Therefore, I will talk about me.

Not me and DS. Just me.

I was in the position where I was betrayed, and standing at that fork. I could see nothing but wanting to go. Why would I risk my future on someone who betrayed me. How could I ever see her as someone I would want to give 100% allegiance to. I read a quote once last this spring that said "don't give first rate allegiance to second rate fidelity" That really made sense to me at the time.

I am going to ask everyone who reads this to resist the urge to prattle about what you owe to your spouse no matter what. That could not be further from the truth, and you will be driving nails in the coffin for every BS who is in this position.

After the affair, there is a very precarious situation where it is no longer about US. That is one of the big costs about deciding to go your own way.

Funny thing is, I figure there are a few different personality types. One just leaves without remorse and feels justified doing so. The next wishes they could go, and looks for reasons to choose either way. Some just surrender to it, and say "you cant change the past". The next pretends like it never happened.


Myself, I floated from type to type. Now I'm not suggesting the "right" way to go.


What I had to learn for myself is "what is right for me?"

In the end of that time, I chose to leave. 100%. I wasnt confused about it. I hadn't missed considering anything. I had my future planned out. I knew what it was going to cost me to leave. I knew it would be less painful than pretending to be happy or pretending to want to try.

Horrible? No.

Real.
Consequential.
Sad.


So I did leave. In reality, I had already left 3 months ago. For a BS trying to get over the affair, I realized that what an affair really is; its when one person emotionally or sexually leaves the marriage while the pretending to still be physically there.

I knew that for the first time in my marriage, I knew that I was in great danger of starting to feel for other people like someone does when they are single. Everyone is a potential match.

I couldnt rationalize feeling that way, without being a cheater. So I left.



This is where things got a bit weird. This is a long tale, so please bear with me.


As I had already been feeling this way for a long time, I decided that I didnt want to continue to feel emotionally alone and unhappy. I felt I already had wasted part of my viable young adult life with DS, and there was no reason to waste more time for the sake of someone else's beliefs.

In a very short period of time, I decided to meet one of the women I was talking to. We had a very short fling. (I use that word not lightly, or as a cliche, or as an self-apology - please read on).

In the time I spent with this other woman I fulfilled some questions that DS's affair brought up for me personally. I dont need to put much detail there. You are all adults, and have felt those things from time to time.

HOWEVER.

Fot the first time since her affair began and ended, I was abe to realize some things about my life:

I love who I am. And who I am is something I became in my shared life with my wife.

We like many of the same things, and I dont have to adapt who I am to impress her.

She tolerates many of the little things I do that others may find absurd

I love being together with my kids.

I dont want to have more.


The list went on and on. The more it went on, the more i realized that it was not her that was going to be replaced.

IT WAS ME.


After that weekend, I called her and told her everything that had happened, knowing ful well that she might likely already be comfortable with being seperate, and now having justification not to reconcille.


Here's what happened. She decided to say yes anyway. In that moment, I loved her again as if nothing had occured before.

I have realized first and foremost that I fall in love with commitment. DS had NO chance of ever proving her commitment again after the affair. But in the very end proved she was commited to us regardless. It has had such a profound effect, that I dont even have fleeting moments of pain over her affair. I am not burrying my head in the sand. I know what our choices created. They are a VERY real danger to f*cking about with your marriage. But they dont hurt anymore, because I do realize that affairs are sometime just a consequence of a marriage going bad and not being corrected in the first place. I am not worried, because I dont believe either of us ever wants that to happen again.


We are picking up some peices here and there. Life's never perfect. But for the first time in many months, I have no worries about our future, and I am absurdly happy with my marriage.

I know we love each other. In fact, I know I love her more now than in the year prior to the affair. Some of the emotional feelings may come and go



How I got here, and how the next person might, I cannot say.

But I do hope that Froz can see some of the things that are uniquey her that she grew to love while she has been with you.

In the end, it is THAT which she might be giving up.


Best wishes to you both.

That was lovely, Sprint and gave me chills how well you put into words how I often feel.

Patriot

Give up trying to control the outcome.

Give up aiming for the goal YOU'VE set.

Accept that you can't control a damn thing here.

Give up trying to lead, direct, order and organise.

Give up thinking that Froz ought to be responding the way YOU think she should.

Give up trying to find support for your position.

Give up expecting anything.

Give up feeling sorry for yourself that Froz is not doing the right thing the right way.

Give up having to be right.

Learn to accept uncertainty.

Learn to accept that other people don't think the way you do, and THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM WRONG.

Learn to live with anxiety when you need to.

Learn that there is no formula for gaining forgiveness.

Learn that you can control little in this life.

Learn that this is OK.

Eight months is a drop in a bucket.

Acquire patience.



TogetherAlone

Pat,

I'm just going to offer some thoughts about my own experience. Maybe there will be something in there that will make some new thinking paths for you... I'm not in recovery so feel free to disregard or regard as you like, but I am very logical, tend to be overly-thought-out in my decision-making and often this is mistaken for coldness and unfeeling. I can relate to where you are in your thought process. I can also tell you that when your world gets turned upside-down you start throwing reason away in a desperate grab for "whatever works". That is reason in a way too.


In the immediate sense, what would have helped me was just getting a break. Not just being out of the house, but also being AWAY from it all. Far away. Out of the country away. I needed to be somewhere safe, pretty and vibrant where I could be largely anonymous. I understood that friends were trying to be nice, but I felt like I was practically begging for help and the help I wanted wasn't forthcoming. I didn't want to hear the platitudes that were being offered.

I didn't want to be disappointed in anyone anymore, myself included. I didn't want to be polite and make polite conversation. I didn't want to hear other people's small talk. I didn't want to hear other people's bulls**t. I loved my friends and my family very much but after I got done trying to let them know what I wanted and what I needed and still didn't get any of it, I didn't want to keep trying because what was the point?

In some ways, I still wonder what the point is. It's not depression that makes me wonder. It's a terrible realization that the world doesn't offer much interest for me anymore. I'm going through the motions. I think it's because there isn't much for me to offer the world. Not much that can't also be gotten from someone else. It wasn't a case of low self-esteem. It was that there was no function on this earth that set me apart from anyone else enough to know that my presence was crucial to the functioning of the world somehow...

And in truth, there isn't. At the beginning, middle and end of the day, all I have to offer is Sally. Who needs me so badly that they cannot live without me? Nobody. I am not sure I can explain, but it's not egotism or fear of living alone for the next 50 years... it's that what is the point of it all question. What is my purpose for being? I've fulfilled my responsibilities a thousand times over. I don't fear meeting my maker. So what keeps me going?

It's an unanswerable question.


Therapy was, for me, a harmful and regrettable mistake. If therapy is not working for you -- QUIT. You can always change your mind and go back. Don't listen to people who say it's necessary -- it isn't for all people. Some people just do NOT do well with therapy. For me, it really harmed me. Phil also feels that he was harmed indirectly. We both are able to see now that our relationship was harmed too.

What do you care if the therapist gets annoyed? Or if other people get annoyed? Or think you're giving up when really you're not...? What matters is the two of you. If it's not working -- QUIT.

Therapy wasn't going to give me what I needed. What I needed (not wanted) was for Phil to need me. Really need me. And I needed him to tell me he wasn't going to leave me. And I needed him to prove it to me. I wanted a big, HUGE display of I am not going to leave you Sally. I needed to know that I was needed. So what if the boys needed me. Phil would take care of them if I was gone. But what I needed to know was that Phil needed me. And of course, he didn't. But keep reading.



I've been thinking about this process -- To leave me and have his A (and I think to stay removed) Phil has had to create a new persona to regard in my place. We'll call her Quicksand Sally. In Phil's mind, Quicksand Sally sucked all the joy and goodness out of his life. Maybe not all, but any time Phil thought he could have been or should be happier, it was because of Quicksand Sally. Quicksand Sally was the real reason Phil left. He thought it wasn't his fault because he just couldn't give her enough love. The more he tried to love her, the more love Quicksand Sally sucked down and left him feeling like he would never be able to love her enough.

I have a point with this, I really do.

The thing is, Quicksand Sally never existed. The person that Phil perceived me to be when he left me and had his A -- she, that person, isn't there to forgive and move forward. The person that Phil wanted to escape from, the person that Phil thought was a victim, the person that Phil marginalized with his lack of regard really never existed. The person that has been there has always been me. And I understand what Phil is saying but it's almost like mistaken identity. I can forgive Phil for the A. I can forgive him for leaving. What I struggle with forgiving him for is thinking I was Quicksand Sally -- the person he could betray without regard. The question that was outstanding for so long was how could Phil not have seen ME? How could he not have heard me? How could he only see someone I wasn't?

And if he could do it once, what will ever keep him from doing it again?

Nothing! There is no guarantee. I will forever know he is capable of leaving, capable of cheating. So, I have to choose to be with Phil with that awareness. I have to choose every day. But the reality is that this is not different from choosing before I knew. I knew the possibility was there. Not because of anything Phil did, but because it's human nature. Every day I looked at Phil, some part of me led the rest of me to choose to be with him. It was no different. I had the responsibility all along...

Pat, I'll tell you still being in the muck with Phil and dealing with the fallout from our break-up has left me without any reason to trust anyone. Any trust I give to people these days is (at least I know) mostly phony at best and usually I just don't even bother to trust people. And to trust Phil -- impossible. Instinctively, I find that I still trust him with my life. Every time I open the door to him, I am potentially facing devastating pain that will send me hurtling back into the void. But I don't really trust that he won't hurt me.

Now, since I am informed, if he hurts me, I am part of that decision. I have no excuse. If you've read my posts before, you'll know that I really struggle with what I think is a huge character flaw in me -- loving someone who has hurt me so badly. Loving someone who doesn't love me back the same way. Loving someone who doesn't want to be with me. What is that all about? What is wrong with me that I still love this guy? Another question that is an exercise in futility... there is no satisfying answer.

Sometimes when the hope is gone I need to hear someone else's hope for me. For us. Even now, when Phil sends the slightest tendril of hope in my direction it stirs my heart just enough so that I can keep moving and feeling... But with no hope I know that I'm just a machine, practically dead anyway. No one else knows the difference so much but I know that I don't feel very much inside.


I think the rigor is fear. Every choice can potentially fail. And after dealing with so much heartache, it feels easier - quieter - calmer to sit and wait. What helps me in this situation is having someone keep me company as I go through the motions of living life. It's called shadowing. It's not that I'm not capable of getting in the shower (yes - there were days I didn't have enough in me to bathe.) it was that I actually needed someone to walk me over to the shower, put the water on, put me under the running water and possibly even wait to hand me a towel when I was done.

I wasn't catatonic, I was lacking will. Borrowing someone else's helped jumpstart me enough to do some things for myself normally again. Some might say it was depression. It was more just not caring enough. Not feeling like there was a reason to care more... I wasn't even always aware of that feeling. It just was...


I understand this so well. And heck, I'm the BS, but I think it's more about how our minds work... For a very long time I thought exactly the way you did. Thought I didn't need Phil that way. I wanted him sure but I would survive without him if, God forbid, something happened to him. I was strong and that wasn't really what living life was about anyway right? OH MY GAWD! Was I wrong! It wasn't about being weak. It was about being. The person I am with Phil in my life is the most wonderful person I have ever known myself to be. Whatever it is that Phil gave me, gives me -- it helps me to be more, better, stronger, smarter, abler. And when it got taken away I realized that unwittingly, I had taken it for granted. I didn't realize how much I was able to do because Phil gave me his love.

Yes, you can say it all came from me, but without Phil to be the spark or the catalyst it would all still be locked away. You can say I was already great before or he wouldn't have loved me. Yes, OK, but in my deepest self, I know that I was less before Phil and without him I am diminished. I am not the person without him that I am with him.

And in that respect, I would argue that you aren't the same person without Froz. In fact, it will kill you if she leaves you. It will kill the YOU that you are with her. That Patriot will be gone. This is a lot like what Sprint was saying about his realization. It's an abstract concept but I've had a close-up view lately and I think you need to rethink the need question a little more. Yes, the Harley's would say that it is healthier to want and not need, but maybe you can spin it in terms of wanting beyond anything you've ever wanted before? That sounds a lot like need... :-) It's motivating you to go outside yourself for answers -- that sounds like need.

Maybe Froz. needs to know that you need her to survive. Maybe she wants proof that you know you need her to survive. Part of that starts with stopping statements like I know it won't kill me if... You get me? You start by begging. You start by pleading and when you stop feeling embarrassed (and you will) about that, you will both know that you, Pat, are willing to do anything to prove to Froz. that you really can't live without her. Because really, if you could live the life you have without her then what would be the point?

The thing is, you really can't live the life you have without her. The person you are would be forever OTHER without Froz. Your soul would lose a piece of itself without Froz. You are part of each other.

You also start by not leaving Froz alone. If she is in the bedroom and wants you near but wants you to stay away, bring her supper in the bedroom and you eat yours outside the bedroom door. Near and far... And slowly, you'll both get a little nearer. She does want very badly to be happy and to be with you and to be near you and she is scared. It's very scary to have faced so much loss and then choose to potentially face it over again by capitulating to the marriage. Interesting that you said you are leaving her behind. You aren't really. You think you are but if she's not with you on this, I hate to tell you, you're just treading water... Not really leaving her behind at all. It's a false feeling of security which you should be getting some awareness of since you're feeling that desperation... no?

Anyway, you want to stop leaving her alone, behind, wherever you're not. The same way you don't leave an infant alone. You don't have to watch an infant all the time, not like a two-year old per se, but you bring the infant everywhere with you. Froz is like an infant in this process. She is a tiny baby who has to learn to trust you the way babies learn to trust parents. And who couldn’t understand that an infant needs special, tender care? You dropped her once. Now, you demonstrate with measurable behavior over time that you won't drop her again. (Or at least for minds like yours and mine, that the improbability of your dropping her again approaches infinity?) Don't leave her alone. Prove to her that you want to be with her as much as possible by being with her as much as possible.


This is good. Froz will never say that she wants you to feel small. Not really. She may like it for you to feel small a little now and then but likely, she loves you so much that it hurts her to see you feeling small and so she doesn't really want that... but if you're feeling small, maybe she can see from that you are in need of her. You don't need her to tell you how strong and smart and masculine you are exactly. But you need her every day and when you see her hurting this way it makes you feel small. It makes you feel diminished. It makes you feel desperate to fill your need for Froz to be better because you miss her and love her and want her and yes, need her.

And someday, if I am very lucky and actually have a reason to be reminded, maybe you will remind me of my own words?

Sally