As some of you know, I have felt like R was not going very well for a while. It seemed like I was doing all the work and I was starting to really wonder whether we were going to make it.

Well, I finally feel like we are on the beginning of the path to R. About a week and a half-ago, I was very honest with my H about how I had been feeling. He admitted to me that he was scared, but that he was 100% committed to making our M work. He also told me that he wants to do the work he will need to do to be a better H to me. That seemed to be the connection we needed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> He seems to be officially out of the fog. My husband is back--the real one!!! It is so nice to see him, it has been too long. I was really starting to think he was never coming back and too much had happened.

Since that day, we have been talking and enjoying each other's company. We have been meeting ENs. And, we celebrated our 9-year wedding anniversary last Thursday. (About a month prior, H had told me he had no desire to go on vacation with me. That stung, but atleast he was honest this is a big deal for him because he tends to CA). He asked me to come outside. He was on the patio and he had made a heart with our initials inside with chalk. Well, he handed me a box (a special one we had from before with a secret compartment) filled with sand. In the sand was a little piece of paper that said,"Let's take a walk on the beach." He said that he wants us to go on vacation (choices: Hawaii, Caribbean, New Zealand) and that he will plan everything, I just have to get the time off and show up. He said he is doing the planning because he knows how important that is to me (BIG deposits!!). Knowing he wanted to be with me alone brought me to tears.

The most important thing to me is that I have my H back. I know we have a long road ahead, but I can do anything with my honey by my side. I almost lost the most important person to me--I will never make that mistake again.

Improving

Great news ! Actions always are worth more than words ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Keep it up !

Thanks, Bob! Yes, actions always mean more..that was what I was having a problem with--I did not see a lot of action. But, he had been asking me to be patient and I was trying, but I was really starting to feel hopeless. This could not have come at a better time. I know we have a lot of work to do, but I am excited to make a marriage that will make us both happy.

Any tips you have for early recovery would be appreciated. And, maybe a quick synopsis of what R was like for you after Squid came out of the fog.

Hey There, Improving:

I've been thinking about and wondering about you. I'm so happy to hear your great news!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Mimi-

I was really starting to wonder if we could ever even get to this point. I knew I could not do it alone.

I know we have a ways to go, but I feel very hopeful. Thank you so much for all your support. I printed out some of the e-mails you gave me as inspiration and reminders <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hopefully, really soon, my sig will read like yours (only the good parts-LOL!)

Improving, I am so happy for you! I hope I am just on your heals as far as recovery goes.

Improving,

I haven't reponded to you in awhile, but I have been reading all your threads.

I am very happy to hear of your progress - that is awesome news!

In the past few months, my situation turned and has become alot like yours, and I too am finally in real recovery in regards to our marriage and I know how wonderful it feels when both of you finally have the same goals and same commitment.

Just like FF - I am very happy for you!!!

FF-

I am so happy to hear that. Good luck and thank you for your support. I would like to try and continue to support each other through this as we seem to be in the same place and we can see both sides of the A coin. Let me know if I can do anything to help.

DS-

Thank you!! I kept trying to keep the faith because I believed in my H and our M. But, it was so hard sometimes because I was also dealing with the pain of his A and the lack of effort made it hurt that much more. Luckily, I had SAA and this website to help me with what to expect. I just wanted a chance to make my M work. I was not sure after awhile if that was going to happen.

I feel like he and I are now on the same page and it feels really nice. It does not mean everything is perfect, but now we can move forward together and make this work.

Can you give me a quick synopsis about what has been happening with your sitch--are you the BS or WS? If you would like, we can try to lean on each other during all of this. Never hurts to have support from someone who understands.

bump^

I had this all typed out and my browser crashed and I dont have time at the moment to retype - but I promise later tonight I will...

Meanwhile I will say I was the WS first, then the BS recently - you can read my posts in April and May when I was a rambling idiot on here LOL

You can read my A story here - although I wrote it in May during a bad day...

Here

Be back later to write!

Any tips you have for early recovery would be appreciated. And, maybe a quick synopsis of what R was like for you after Squid came out of the fog.

Man, that's hard.
Squid was only fog-free from about March this year. She was still defending OM and blaming me for her A right up to then.

Once she realised the truth 'fog free' the hammer fell and she became very ashamed. Her self loathing started to paralyse our recovery and impact our otherwise great day-to-day life. This led to her offering me a heartfelt apology last week which was a real milestone in our recovery.

This seems to be a theme of good-hearted FWS when teh fog drops. They get really guilty and horrified at their actions. YES this is needed by us, the BS but it is horrible to experience, and they need help through it.

I guess what I am saying in answer to your second question is that Squid got a dose of reality wen she came fully out of the fog, but that took almost a year. be patient.

regarding any tips I have for early rcovery, well its a Bob specific thing, not an MB proven thing but here goes:

I have developed a unique view of recovery based on my own experiences and studies of folks on here.

I think recovery has at least THREE seperate threads.

PRACTICAL - Day-to-day relationship and life support
PERSONAL - Individual recovery from overdependence and behaviours that contributed to the poor M that allowed an affair
TRAUMATIC - the recovery from the hurt, guilt and pain that D-day and withdrawal caused. Also learning to protect each other from hurt by selfishness.

I see that at least some of these three are required even if a divorce is chosen, but all three are required if a recovered M is possible IMO.

I think the first one non-MB aware folks will concentrate upon first is "day-to-day". Its thee natural place to start as we all have the skills, however latent to make each others lives better, which also make our own life better.

Chicken soup , intimacy, SF, openness, small loving things for each other Etc.

Squid THREW herself into these tasks once she got past withdrawal. She was transformed as a wife and mother since MANY years in the first few months of recovery.

It felt like we weren't recovering to me back then but looking down the timeline of the last year we were progressing well in the practical thread laying the foundations forr a sustainable marriage.

My own personal recovery has progressed faster than Squids - but then again FWS and FBS timelines are different. Maybe I had to get strong first to help her now ? I dunno.
Traumatic recovery has not been so fast and we haveonly really started on this since March this year.

I can see that we needed to build a stable practical relationship before we could feel safe to progress this. To open the bandages and share our wounds.

RIF and Orchid helped me realize that the PRACTICAL recovery can provide a platform that allows FWS to be confident enough to risk hurting FBS again in order to help us heal from the TRAUMA without fear of being kicked to the curb.

This seems to be a very real risk of many or all FWS in early recovery.

So improving, while only YOU know the facts of your situation, if your FWH is contributing HARD to the PRACTICAL recovery then you ARE in recovery.
It is important - imagine having a healed heart but no effort to reintegrate your practical lives..No shows of affection..no active caring. No good 'spousely' behaviours.

I was not settling for a slow recovery, I have just learned from RIF, SKM, and others that as I ( and you) have gotten strong in our personal recovery, our FWS are just hitting a bad and shaky place where the A seems like it was a very stupid, dangerous and horrible thing to do indeed.

For ME, Squid has contributed so obviously and dedicatedly to the only part of recovery she was capable of early on( practical) that I loved her for it and it helped consolidate our lives on the pratcical level. This , like in RIFs case, allowed us to work on the traumatic recovery together

So my summary tips:

Recovery can take many forms, practical, personal and traumatic. Maybe even different headings for other folks. DO not think you aren't recovering because you aren't having A talks all night every night. Journal your progress under each of the 'thread' headings and you will be surprised at your progress.

Recovery can seem slow in real time, but the progress is cumulative.

Do not conflict avoid but do not lovebust.

Pray

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All blessings

DS-

Can't read your posts. Today was a bad day. Lots of LBs and talk about the As--did not go well at all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Need to stay away from the topics that are painful for now.

Do you discuss the As? How are you able to talk about the upsetting stuff without LBing? Tips appreciated.

I tried to tell my H how I was feeling at a certain point in this mess, and, once again, I felt like he never took the time to hear me. Which, is one of my big needs which was not being met before and is rarely being met now. Conversation is so important to me--have been missing this need for a long while. I need to feel valued. This makes big deposits, yet he does not try to talk to me much.

Is your H remorseful? If so, how long did it take to see the remorse? Is it genuine?

Improving

Thanks Bob!! A year? Wow!! No wonder you were so happy to finally get an apology. I gave mine much sooner than that and have continued to give them. Gosh, I cannot begin to explain (though you understand) the yearning I have for a heart-felt apology. I got a few on the different D-days, but they do not mean as much when they are followed by a resumption of the A <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Patience seems to be the word of the day and reading other's stories helps me to understand better what to expect.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I read your story when H was in the throes of his A, and it gave me some serious comfort. Thank you for sharing. It was a lifeline when I thought I was drowning <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Okay

Got my morning cup o tea and ready to tackle this again lol



I was the WS first - dday was 8 months ago (dec 17, 2004). I wrote this in May during my ordeal with H living seperate in the same house with me... My Story (you;ll have to scroll up it as i grabbed it half way down)...hopefully that link works. lol

We started out great - H had his bad days, but good days we were meeting EN, etc. By mid-April though almost overnight, the affection stopped and H distanced himself.

By June 2, he asked me for a Seperation, but I also knew alot more than he knew I knew, and I knew there was an EA taking place. By mid June, while i was at my parents it QUICKLY became a PA. 3 days before the Sep he was telling me he would tell this friend of his he couldn't talk to her anymore...which he really never did that way. The Seperation came as a shock to me.

I came home 2.5 weeks ago, as 3 weeks ago he called and confessed, and realized it was me he wanted after all that he was wrong.

Over the past 2 weeks he has realized bit by bit that he didn't leave before he became a cheat as much as he thought he did...he realizes the relationship he with that girl started before he told me it was over, as much as in his head he felt it was over, unless he told me before he met this girl - it's cheating...and he didn't tell me.

Now as much as Sprint knew he wasn't meeting my needs pre-my A, he had a hard time accepting it because in his world - he was happy and if he was happy then why shouldn't I be.

Now after his A, and 8 months after my A, he has realized what he is most sorry for is his treatement of me pre-A.

As I wrote in another post to WonkBoy, I had become quite a mess, but it was more than just meeting my needs...I realized I had some co-dependency issues that made me cope in self-destructive ways so when my needs weren't being met in such a dire way, I went into cope mode.

As much as I agree that EN are a huge part to leading to a an A, I also believe there is something more inside you that will allow you to break all your moral codes to have those needs met. While H didn't meet my needs and that was a contributing factor yes, what in ME allowed ME to do such a thing. It took me months and months of HARD HARD self evaluation. I had to stop looking at what H didnt do and look at why i did.

There will always be times in a marriage where one of us can't meet eachother's needs all the time...I didn't want to be left worrying about when one of those times arose and the conditions were right to fail...so I had to figure out what in me needed to be fixed.

Well, During my H's last 3 months and total not wanting to touch me, not wanting to be with me - my needs not being met in anyway - I survivied - I took what I learned and applied it and worked on myself...one thing WS's need to learn is that when those needs aren't being met, there are ways to help yourself be happy.

You can't depend solely on your H meeting your needs, you need those in a marriage yes, but you also need to learn what makes you happy on your own. Too much dependence can become very dangerous.



I have definately made a few mistakes in the LB, but also I went through 7 months of HORRIBLE LB's from him - him telling me how other people were better, how I was busy f***ching another man, this, that...was that constructive? Did it help me heal? NO - so sometimes those thoughts do pop into my mind, but I will NOT make him feel how I felt. It's unconstructive.

I don't want details. Well, I do and I don't. My curiousity wants them, but really what will they do for me? They will hurt me. I know what happened, I know they slept together, I know he made time for her over us...why do I really need to know what was talked about as he is here now talking to me. Those details will just hurt me more...and wont' help us towards the future goal.

I m not afraid to talk about it and we have, but Sprint now, 8 months later, wont talk about mine anymore. He sees too how it's null and void. We hurt eachother, we know what we did wrong, time to focus on the future.

I am bombarded with thoughts alot, and I don't deny them, I let them come, but then I also get mad at myself and say - no more thoughts, look at what I have now. H is here, and as a WS, I know how hard it is when you decide the marriage is what you want, so he is probably going through a hard time of his own even if he isn't showing me, why do I want to make it harder for him?

Also it's very easy to compare without realizing it - you understand your reasons....and you relate it to his...but in all honesty - his thinking is so different that you may be so far off base it's not worth relating one to the other. I made that mistake a few times already.

Your H is also very early in this and still experiencing his own pain too - my H is very analytical and he had alot to deal with. You H may be still dealing with YOURS, and may not be ready to address your needs or listen to you yet... I once said the BS has to fix themselves before they can fix the marriage...as sad and hurtful as it is - I think my H had to do this to get to this point. It's painful, but I am grateful he is finally at this point - funny eh? Grateful he left and had an affair...sounds bad - not how I meant it...I am killing inside that he left us all, but so grateful he figured out what he really wanted. You can read his post to Patriot here

It was his first post in months here. Probably his last for a bit too.



H now realizes, 8 months in, that he didn't do this - all the times I tried pre-A to tell him what was wrong, and he completely ignored me...didn't hear anything I said ever - just learned to block me out. He told me he is more sorry for this - pre my A, then he is his A...that kinda hurt to hear, but I am learning my H's "language" and realized he isn't saying he isn't sorry for his A, just that he is sorry how everything got started. My H is hard to de-cypher sometimes lol - but I am learning to "hear" him too. could it be sometimes you don't really "hear" him either?


Sometime sI would like to see remorse in H like I showed remorse...but then I realize that is a unreal expectation. In actually listening to him and his "language" yes I believe he is truly remorseful and it's genuine. He may not talk about it much, or apologize as much as I would like...but in listening to other things he says, I can hear it. Months ago, I would have never heard it, as I was always looking to hear things the way I would do things...but my H is not me...he doesn't think, feel or talk like me...so I have had to learn to hear him the way he is. I know he loves me, I know without a doubt this is where he wants to be.

You know what's funny - knowing that in my core and trusting it? It lets me get through the rough times without LB. I explained to him once our difference. When he was getting through this, he was in a state where he was thinking, I love her, but is she what I want? How am I going to get through this? Will the pain stop?

After a very hard 7 months, my frame of mind is in a place where these are my thoughts. I love him, and after everything, I KNOW he is what I want and not just what I need. I KNOW I am going to get through this, and i KNOW the pain will stop. And then I look at all the positives.

A good friend here on MB also helped me to look at the little positives that come through that I used to never noticed as I was waiting to hear the big positives. Once I started looking at those little things, life is full of positives and I have no doubts H and I have the same goal now.

Things aren't perfect right now, don't kid yourself, and hey - my needs aren't going 100% met, and vice versa, but bit by bit we are changing our habits and realizing more for eachother. And it's a great start - doesn't happen overnight.

I still haven't seen remorse like I want to see it - but will I ever? maybe not - but I have seen remorse, and I know it's genuine and I realized for my goal...that is good enough - I can live without the emotional I am so wrong, I am so sorry, as he has kinda said it in his own way - not as direct, but when I truely listen to him, he is saying it in his own way....

bump ^^

Dorry-

I cannot tell you how nice it is to feel like there is someone who understands me.

I have concerns about my FWH because he is still in the fog at times and I do not see enough remorse, compassion, openness. He is a serious CA and none of this is any different. What I worry about is that I do not see him making any many efforts to change. I do not see him working much on the things he did that hurt our M. I do not want to repeat the same patterns.

He has accused me of being controlling (true), and I am working hard on this. Sometimes, I think he still somehow thinks the A was better. The M cannot compare to a fantasy relationship, but I do not think he sees that. He has never had any prior relationship experience. I do not always see as much maturity in his recovery efforts as I would like.

Your points about accepting him as is and not expecting things are very good points. I have to learn to accept more and expect less. Whenever I have expectations, they have hindered our R.

It also frustrates me that he cannot see that on some level he still loved me when he was in the A. He told me so in the last month before our last D-day-- and it was heartfelt and genuine. He celebrated Valentine's with me and not OW. There are lots of signs that showed he still had a connection to me. But, he has a hard time seeing it. I choose to look at the future, I feel he wants to live in the past.

I do not want the details either. She is a just a symptom to me. I choose to focus on the future and what our M needs to be. I have no desire to wallow in the details of my H's fantasy relationship.

Another thing that bothers me is that she knew we were having trouble and I feel she took advantage of that. Yet, he does not see her that way. Even when I asked her (very respectfully) to leave my H alone so we could see if we could make our M work. I asked her to do it for him and the kids he loved (so he could look them in the face one day), and she told me she would. Well, she was still talking with him at that exact moment! Of course, he cannot see her realistically.



I have had to do this too. I actually had to write out a list when I needed to remain motivated.

One thing that has really hurt is that I did not feel H fought to save the M. He gave up on me and our M very quickly (in my mind) and then he went and had an A. It's hard to not get resentful when you feel you are the only one trying, the only one changing, the only one showing remorse, and the only one trying to remain positive.

I can relate to this...but you know what - give him time without pressure and I am sure he will come to this realization...and if he doesn't - does it REALLY matter. He is here now and loves you now. It's something I had to accept too, that my H may always believe he really didn't love me when he left. Does it change my goal? does it change how I know he loves me now? NO, so I wont let it get to me.



How do you know for sure he doesn't see her realistically. If he has told you otherwise, then you are making an assumption. 2 weeks ago I felt H was still defending OW. This and that. I still sometimes he feels she was an innocent party...but I ALSO know he realizes he did ALOT of manipulating so that things would look a certain way to her. But he doesn't discuss this with besides one time...I dropped the subject because - does it matter? I would LOVE to call the OW and tell her - H wasn't seperated for a month before he met you - he left me 2 weeks after he met you...but thinking about her and the things that happened doesn't HELP me - it lets me dwell.

You thinking about what you ASKED of her, or that they were talking is a form of dwelling. Does it REALLY impact what is happening now? He is with YOU right now...and even though he may be distant and may not have accept it all...he is THERE - he is not asking you for a seperation anymore, he is not hiding current things from you. FOCUS on those - it helps immensly to focus on those instead of trying to analyze everything that happened...

I know, I know, easier said than done - I am bombarded with thoughts all the time...reviewing things, wondering things...but ultimately - I know what happened - does picking through or sifting through all that help me? I like to think it does, but really it doesn't. It gets me down, gets me frustrated, and then my H gets my MOOD that comes along with it. So unconstructive to what we are working on.



TOTALLY relate to this...but once again this is YOUR perspective, just as MY feelings were MY perspective.

H explained to me he was trying, more than I will ever know - he didn't just give up...he just didn't know how to get through it. Because he wasn't taking my suggestions I ASSUMED he wasn't trying. But he was trying the best way he could given the amount of pain he was going through - he didn't know how to cope.

The HARDEST thing I have had to hear is he wanted out it was a matter of when and how...and that he wasn't coming back. Something in him changed and he hadn't expected that...he expected it to be a divorce, he expected to be over and done with me forever, except where it concerned the kids.

And I get mad because I knew he was basing it on a negative cycle of thinking, one that I was on too - I based my A on a negative cycle of thinking. I am angry that he had to do this to figure out it was me that he wanted.

But to pressume he wasn't trying was WRONG of me. He was trying, just not how I would have tried. he didn't see a way out - he couldn't see healing. He was devestated.

And for me I am devestated, but I see a way out, I see how to make it through it...just because I see it, doesn't mean he could - he is NOT me.

Remember that when you are dealing with your H - he made a mistake too, but he probably was trying - he just didn't know how...

Patience my friend...he is there, you are there - your marriage will survive.