Thanks for everyones advice regarding this thread:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=2#2755623

This morning I sent the following:
I am writing this because I do not want you to feel as
if I am being unreasonable. When you and I first
started trying to see if this would work out you made
some offers to make things easier that I did not feel
were reasonable, realistic or fair. Those offers were
to sell the house and to quit your job. I still feel
that way.
So some of the things we did to help us feel better
about each other was to set some boundaries regarding
certain people. We would tell each other if we had any
communication with anyone. We would also tell them
where we were and that there would be no further
communication. I did this via e-mail and when it
happened again you responded quite effectively. You
work with an individual who I loath and you told me
when he sent you a personal e-mail and how you handled
it. I am OK with that and assume that it did not
happen again. Although I don't like the fact that he
still works there and communicates with you, I have
accepted that as part of your job. Anything else would
be unfair of me.
Last November you told me you received a phone call.
You also told me that you told him where you were with
me, that "he came up" and I assumed that you told him
not to communicate with you anymore and that he would
honor this. You were upset. I was fine with the way
you handled it.
Friday you told me you received an e-mail. I'll admit,
I am not happy. I then told you how I expected you to
handle it. You assumed that I was angry. I assured you
Friday that I was not, that you did not need to wait
for the impending "explosion" of anger. I just wanted
to know how it was resolved. However, I remain
steadfast that I expect you to tell him that his
contact at Y co. is (insert name here). I do not ever want to have
you call me again about him. I do not ever want you to
feel sick over getting a call or e-mail. I fully
expect that you'll take care of it and I know you have
not. You need to know that I will.
Do I want you to lose your job? No. This is clearly
personal. The owner of a customer does not need to
communicate with the CFO of a supplier for any reason.
Your relationship with him was initiated, forged and
consummated in the context of work, yet it was
personal. That is why I feel this way. Regardless of
what it is for you have and will delegate this to
someone else. Then why can't you do this? It is what
we agreed to. It is important for me to know that we
won't have to deal with this again. It is also
important to me because it is what we agreed upon. Why
would we change that now? I am not agreeing to change
that now and that is why I will take care of it if I
need to. Understand FWxW, I love you with all my
heart and it is that important to me and for me for
this to happen. You have another e-mail account that
you can use, you can establish another if you need, to
I just want it done. Because if, after that it happens
I will handle it just like you did before, with good
intentions and dignity. I did not feel one bit
humiliated at your e-mail to someone else. I thought I
would be, not by what you wrote but that I could not
take care of it.

I am also troubled by the topic of social and travel
in relation to Y Co. This was something that I
assumed was agreed to FWxW, the past can not be
changed, I have accepted this. However, I feel pretty
strong about the fact that the social aspects
(dinners) and travel just won't work for us, not now.
It is because you were not honest with me. It is not a
question of trust. I trust you now. But I asked specific questions about social events and you lied about it. I also trust you to
understand. This is not a punishment, not a way to
humiliate you. I really hate even thinking about it. I
know you would do anything to make me feel better but
you can't, not right now.

Do I think you can lose your job over it? No. However
you may need to have a conversation with your boss
regarding it. It could be as simple as telling him
that I am not ready for you to travel. You may even
have to disclose that you admit to acting
inappropriately at Y Co. in the past. FWxW you're an
asset to that company and you need to know that. I do
not believe for one second that if you told him that
it was a family issue it would be fine. You are that
important.

Can this change? Certainly and I know that it must.
Right now, I am not ready. Please be understanding in
this.

FWxW this was very hard for me to do because I do not
want to be misundertood. None of it was done to hurt
your feelings. What I refuse to do is ignore any of
this. I can't, you mean way to much to me and to me
this shows it. I am terrified that you'll be angry and
I am not sure why you would be.

I love you

She called me ten minutes later and asked me if I wanted a copy of the e-mail, I told her no...

I wanted everyone to see that even in recovery and reconciliation principles learned here still apply...

I don't mean to sound rude.....but....your letter IMHO sounded a little condescending.

I mean it may have worked for your wife.....but it was FILLED with the word EXPECT. What YOU EXPECT of her.

What of what she EXPECTS of you?

Like letting go of your anger.

Again....IMHO...it's one of the major setbacks of Recovery.

Until you deal with your anger, Recovery will be an even more slow process than it has to be.

Another thing.....and trying not to step on toes here....but I call 'em as I see 'em.

In your original post you said that your anger is just how you deal with things and it seemed to me that you feel that you are entitled to stay angry as long as you want to be....I believe you said...."I'm just an old fashioned guy"...and that's just how it is.

Why does it have to be that way?

You CHOOSE to hold onto this anger.

That's not going to help you any.

JMHO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I will respond to how you percieve that. It was not meant to be condescending in any way. I may have written OUR expectations in the first person (MINE) but they are ours. I have not crossed the boundries we established. She was already asking for me to "adjust" mine. That is why I sought advice as to what was reasonable.

My anger is directed towards an indivdual she works with that established himself as a friend to my family, to me, my boys and my XW. Through significant counseling I have addressed my anger issues yet this is one topic that I can not seem to let go of. While there may be people who percieve this to mean I still have "issues" with anger My FWxW, myself and our counselors believe that I have made significant strides in correcting that. Everyone gets angry, it is how we deal with it that counts.

I hope that this clarifies things a little better. I certainly respect your opinions and you did not step on my toes...

Glad to hear that I didn't step on any toes....it's a bad habit of mine.

I understand a little better about your anger....and commend you for working on it.

Hope everything works out for you and your FWW, FW, XW.....etc.

That's confusing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Unfortunately, I agree that is sounds a bit demanding and threatening. If you do not do X, then I will do Y. Your new relationship needs to use POJA and avoid LBs, so that both people feel valued and respected. However, if she is changing a previous POJA, then that does need to be addressed. I just think your tone needs work--I understand what you are getting at.
Also, if she has contacted someone that you used to see on her own, it seems a bit unfair that she is unwilling to give you that option (you should not need to because she should be handling this). But, this person is directly related to her job, so that throws a bit of a different spin on things. I do not think wanting her to have NC and delegating anything involving OM is unfair. Is this OM the 4-yr guy or the one you did not know about?
I think it would be advisable to let her explain what her concerns are (she seems worried for her job), you explain your side, and then you POJA it.

Good Luck <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was with Priss, until I read your reply. Now I totally understand. As long as you two are on the same page, and are working toward a common goal (and you are). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, this is progress for you, right? No matter what anybody says, if it works?!

I'm also commending you for working on your anger issues. It was especially nice that you didn't insist on seeing a copy of the email. I admit, I would have been insanely curious, myself.


Keep up the good work!


slh

Miss Priss, I'm glad you understand better

Improving. I did not intend there to be any threat other than if she does not contact this person then I will. She DID NOT contact anyone without my knowledge. What she did was respond to an e-mail I received AFTER I communicated to "where I was with my XW and my wish that she no longer communicate with me" My XW handled it perfectly and that person got the message very clear. She considered none of that note to have a LB on it. All I did was remind her of what WE agreed to. All of it. Communication from others, travel, social events, etc...She wanted the agreement to change......I refused to go for that as nicely as possible...

This OM is the one I never knew about. The 4 year EA was the "family friend" she works with still...

Still...

There is a part of me that wants to..believe me...if you read the other post, I have a key logger, I can see it if I want to. However, I need to SHOW her I am trusting....she must have told me 3 x in a 5 minute conversation she sent it....so I will remain a man of my words..and not want to see it...I want him to go away...

My anger issues took many years to accumulate. I was headed towards an early grave over it...it doesn't get the best of me any more. Everyone gets angry...and these topics generate MANY emotions don't they? Anger is always in the forefront...

and yes...it is working...

thanks again for everyone responding...I'm abit shocked at how it appeared. that thing took me about 3 hours to write....

I think it was a well thought out letter.
Defining your boundaries and standing up for them is important in recovery. I probably wouldn't have used the,
"If you don't do this, I will do it for you" line, but that is just my personal opinion.

It is good to hear that she took in the letter, and realized how important it was.

Folks,

when you hear me or any of the old timers say "set your boundaries, but don't LB" THis is exactly what we are talking about. The boundaries (expectations) were clearly and concisely expressed. No name calling, no accusations, and NO wiggle room. THAT IS SETTING BOUNDARIES without LB'ing. It may not make someone feel good to hear about the boundaries, but there they are...do as you please with them, but there WILL be consequences if they are crossed.

Excellent example of how it is supposed to be done.

Good luck and God Bless,

JL

Send, I thought it was an excellent letter. You are perfectly correct to expect that she will honor certain boundaries and I don't see that as condescending at all. And you are SUPPOSED to be angry. That is a natural response to a betrayal, that won't go away overnight. Your anger is very appropriate. Decent people are supposed to be angry at injustice.

The only thing that greatly alarms me is this statement:


Why would you "need" to show trust to an untrustworthy person? Why? Showing undeserved trust to an untrustworthy person does NOTHING to rebuild the trust in your marriage. Trusting an untrustworthy person is insane.

The trust must be restored by HER, not you. She must EARN trust.

In the meantime, you have an obligation to protect yourself from your untrustworthy wife until she has PROVEN that she can be trusted. You know she cannot be trusted to act in your best interests right now. And pretending she is will not make it so.

You cannot afford this pretense, my friend. Turn the keylogger back on and watch your back like a hawk. Find out if she is actually being honest with you. If you can see with your own eyes that she is being faithful, without her knowing you are looking, you can feel trust. But you cannot - and should not - rely upon the word of a liar.

Mel...

She has been honest with me for the last 6 months. The key logger is on her work computer, she would not know how to shut it off and I won't. I have the passwords to her servers, her e-mail to everything. All e-mail is archived. I saw, a year ago the personal e-mail I discussed from her coworker. She handled that verbally. I know this from another coworker who told me she went upstairs and into his office very angry telling him "Don't you ever do that again".

She has betrayed me. I accepted the reality of her affairs only after "the truth of it" was fully known. The dishonesty in that process was brutal. However, I understand it. She did not want to hurt me further, she was protecting herself from losing me. When we first got back together and the questions began I told her that I was not fully honest with her about what I did SINCE WE SEPERATED AND DIVORCED. For a few reasons. First, I did not feel as if she had any right to know anything because I was (and remain somewhat) bitter about HER divorce. I never wanted it. Second, the level of details she requested would certainly hurt her (how many did I date, how many came to my house, where did you go, etc.) and I knew I did not want to know the same things. Third, I knew that some of the answers to her questions would upset her. However, I told her that I wasn't comfortable and could not be honest about it. So I was protecting myself. Does it justify any dishonesty? ABSOLUTELY NOT. So we both learned from it.

From what I have checked up on and what I have learned she has been honest with me. However, because I drew a line in the sand regarding it (next lie and I am gone) some doubt lingers. Why? Because I know she doesn't want to lose me. It is a catch -22. I recently answered all of her questions except for intimate details she asks for as she panics about me actually having a decent life while I was divorced. She was miserable. I was actually finding some happiness and resolution in it.

TT - I said that "if she did not do it I would" not as a threat but as an indication that she meant that much to me. Remember she had done this with someone a year ago. She was very cordial in that e-mail basically saying that "SMOMY and I are trying to reconcile and his request that you not contact anymore is paramount to any success that we may have. Thank you for understanding" And that is all I would have done. It is personal and one of her EN's is fo rme to show to others that I will stand up for what is mine and that is her. I hoep that this makes sense.

I must tell all of you that this place is my rock. I struggled with what was keeping me awake at night and it was the POJA that she was fighting because they're an inconvenience and could result in embarrassment (at work). Telling her that her and I are more important than ANYTHING is a step in the right direction. We're getting there.

Her and I did not divorce because of her infidelity. There are reasons why she did that that I am the cause of. It was a two way street and after years of a bad marriage. I accept my responibity fo rmaking her feel that way. I KNOW how she felt, I felt the same way but made different choices, choices that were quite difficult to make. I had my own inappropiate relationships but I drew the line. We did not meet each other's EN's. That is so much better now.

Thank you all for responding...I only wish that I knew of this group years ago.

OK..It bothers me more than ever that I did not see the e-mail she sent. I also want to know if he responded...Help me approach this...I regret not seeing it because now "I wonder"...and I have a need for that to stop....

How do I do this without being a hypocrite??