My exWW and I are plodding along through recovery. We have our good days and our bad days. To be expected of course. The images are fading, though they do creep up from time to time and they still do hurt. Not as bad, though.

The one thing I have a problem with is that their relationshiop became a PA, and very quickly. For the longest time, I had thought it was a EA but when I found out for sure that she had slept with him, I was more than devastated. You see, I cannot comprehend her sleeping with him when she says, repeatedly, that she did not even love him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Aaaargh.

I really do understand the fog, aliens, emotional needs etc. I know what, in general, makes men and women interested in sex. But this I just cannot resolve. I just cannot get over that she could risk our marriage to sleep (risk pregnancy, STDs) with someone she did not love! At least if the fog convinced her that this person was special, and that she loved him, etc., I could at least understand that. Now, I feel that she's not telling the truth - either it was about the sex and she doesn't want to tell me or she did love him and doesn't want to tell me that. She knows that this is a big issue for me but she doesn't/can't say anything else. I have asked to have a number of questions about their relationship answered but after many months, the answers have never been provided.

Maybe it seems trivial but I can't even explain how much this affects me and my motivation. I'm sure it is partly how I view sex myself. I just could not be intimate with someone if I didn't have feelings of love. It is just such an emotionally connecting experience for me.

Sorry for the ramble but this is really keeping me from opening my heart again. She's really, really trying to make things better. I have no doubt that she wants the marriage to work. We are both in IC and we do MC, as well. The issue is with me. I don't want to look at her in twenty years and still think, yeah, our marriage is better now, thank goodness. But, she risked it all for what?? I don't know if this is something I can lock in a box and forget about. I don't want to have a layer of resentment to my spouse for the rest of my life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Somebody? Pretty please?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

WB, How long have you been in recovery? It could be your FWW had sex with OM to continue getting her EN's met. I know that was the primary catalyst to my EA becoming a PA. I didn't really care about the sex but wanted the emotional needs I was getting me by OM. KWIM?

Are you two in MC?

One of the big reasons for your frustration is that you are answering questions for which there are no known answers.

She probably understands this less than you do.......lets see........ how to explain it.

Why does the child take the cookie when they know if they are caught they will get in trouble?

How much sense does it make?

Is it because they are hungry? Or because they crave sweets?
When you ask the child why, what do they say?
The answer is always the same "I don't know."

Part of the addiction is chemical. If you have read on this site long enough, you have seen the references to it.

Your W wants to recover your Marriage. I would guess that if both of you continue to study, and to practice what you learn, there will come a time when a light goes on in her head, and she will finally understand, and talk to you about why it happened. Rignt now, if you continue to ask, you will get the same answer, and it will deepen and widen the gulf between you.

This is one of the things that is going to be hard to over come for a while. Do you think you can wait a year or so for some of your answers?

SS

WB,

Just a quick drive by posting. I think a lot of people are on holiday or trying to catch up with work after being gone last week. That’s the case with me anyway.

Re: Your W’s A going PA so fast. Don’t feel so far out in left field. My W’s A started with sex 48 hrs after they met for the first time on a business trip.

You will read in many texts that most As start with the Not Just Friends slippery slope. The PA comes after months or even years of EA. That is the reverse of my W’s A. She says she did not feel love for OM for a couple of years after the PA started.

I asked the same question, how could you have sex with someone you did not love? Someone you didn’t even know? She says she got attention and admiration she didn’t even realize she needed and it progressed from there. Here exact words, “We just clicked.” That’s all it takes, huh. Doh! I click with lots of people all the time, so when do I get the sex?

You can safely assume she is simultaneously not telling you the truth and is confused herself. You can help her out here. First, as part of Plan A, expose the A to as many people as can affect it, including just about everyone who knows OM. (Is he M’d? Expose to his W, family, or significant other ASAP.) This will clear her head faster than you can say, “The fog is particularly thick around here today.”

One more quick piece of advice. I found out about my W’s A the first time after it had been going on for about 5 years. She acted pretty much the way you describe yours. I believed her when she said the A was over. I believed her when she said if I expose she would immediately D. I believed her when she said after 6 months of MC that if I wasn’t over it yet we never would be and we might as well D.

All read flags! I had not read SAA or found MB then. If I had exposed back then, one way or another it would have not gone on for another five years. Yes, her A lasted 10 freaking years.

So, follow the plan here. Do it by the book. Either of the likely outcomes, end of A and recovery or a D, are a lot better than dealing with a 10 year A.

With prayers.

FF,

I guess that is the point. She said it was all about conversation and friendship and that the sex was only a by-product of having her needs met. Yeah, I know all about the MB stuff and realize that OM was making big deposits but still, they were doing the physical stuff pretty darn quickly after their "friendship" started. If they had an EA for six months and needed the SF for connection, that would make sense and I could use that knowledge to help me move on.

I guess part of me still feels lied to. It took months for the story to finally come out. I still partly wonder if it is entirely. Part of the reason that I realized things had gone beyond a friendship is because her stories just didn't make sense. This seems like another case to me and that SF was involved (which is a big issue in our M)just cuts even deeper to the core.

I believe that have almost entirely foregiven her for the A. It still hurts, mind you, but I understand how it works and my part in it all and I do accept that. This issue is a sticking point for me.

FF, would you mind sharing a bit more about your story? How did the A progress?

Thank you.

True. I hardly every broach the topic anymore. I guess that is why I am here - just trying to understand so I can move forward.



Well, maybe. Hope the answer is worth it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I just know that this is a major sticking point for me and I need to understand what is now incomprehensible in order to move on in R.

Thanks.

Like FF said - I only had the PA because it was the only way I still got my Emotional Needs met by the OM. He would give me what I needed when I gave him what he needed. As sick as it sounds...on my end - there was no love.

And yes it was stupid to risk those things for someone I didn't love, no excuse.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Exactly! I had an A, too. SF did not start until I "knew" I was in love with this person. Yes, it was quite foggy at the time but even so, my warped way of thinking would not let me cross that emotional barrier until there was more there than just friendship. I'm not trying to suggest that the way I handled it was better, I just view SF as having a much more emotional connection, I guess, and that is why I am having a hard time understanding my exWW.


You are right. I have no doubt that the affair is over now. Not really worried about that. We are both trying to work our way through recovery. This is just an issue that is greatly affecting my ability to open my heart.

Thanks for the reply.

Not the same progression as friends moving to PA.

Let me explain it - my OM was a very sexual person. But also said all the things I desperately needed to hear at that time. He also always flirted very sexually with me. When at times I asked it to stop and just be friends, the attention he gave me stopped...and then I wasn't getting my "fill" I was addicted to that attention, so within days I would allow the sexual conversations to start again.

Less than 3 weeks later, while i was in town, I wanted to see him in person, honestly didn't expect it to become PA, but once again, while we sat there not allowing it to be sexual, he wasn't saying those things to me, but once I allowed a PA, all the things I wanted to hear I heard.

My A lasted a total of 1.5 months...and there was no long EA leading to a natural PA...it was something I did to get my "fill" that I was so desperately addicted to during that time in my life.

IT also took me over 3 weeks to tell my H the whole sotry because I felt if I didn't tell him the worse of it I would protect him...realized too late that makes things worse.

Thanks, DS. Your perspective is very helpful.

Wonk - the same way my H doesn't understand mine, I also don't understand his - one of the fall outs to the pain I caused, was 7 months into recovery my H met someone, asked me for a seperation and then had the PA part of it.

Since the fall out we are now genuinely in recovery. But I don't understand alot of the reasons he had his (besides the pain I caused him due to my A...)and he still doesn't understand mine.

But we what we do BOTH understand is we both caused eachother unbelievable hurt through eachothers actions...and we realize that understanding eachother isn't what is going to make us succeed in recovery.

Its accepting that we are different people, and we think and feel differently, and we may not always grasp eachothers thought patterns - but that we love that we are different, and celebrate the differences...and respect them.

Some of the things my H tells me right now don't make sense to me, as I am sure many of things I told him over the last 8 months didn't make sense to him...but how does that effect our future?

We know the causes and reasons that eachother made our choices...and the ramifications and concequences to those actions...and now we are doing everything in our power to make the changes so that we never do this sort of damage to our marriage again...we aren't wasting the energy trying to understand it...cause neither of us may ever completely understand it. There are more important things that need to come out of the affairs...what was missing, what the message was, what needs to change.

But this is JMHO and based on our situation.

My story is different than your W, I knew OM for a long time (he was a co-worker) and had a friendship with him. I can't really pinpoint the moment it changed but I was lonely and unhappy at home. My H was gone a lot and working long hours. I had a 2 year old at home and my H did not seem to be too in to the "family" thing. OM started noticing and saying things about my appearance, then it progressed to me talking about my M. I really didn't want the physical part of the A, SF with my H was good still and frequent. I felt like I "owed" the OM the physical part because of my EN's being met. Make sense?

I hope your W will give you the details you long for. It took my H 2 years to give me details of his first A (he has had 3)and I still don't know the details of the last one. I just resigned myself to not knowing for a while.

This is very true. I do realize how much I have hurt her. As the fog has lifted, I can see that - and accept it - so much more.

I know that there are things we will never understand. I know that we have both been forever changed as people. I just don't do well with nebulous concepts/feelings. I do much better if I understand how things work. I'm not mechanical but it is how I think. If I understand it, I get it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />



Very true. Knowing this and thinking about this has been key to my foregiving her and myself, too. We can't take it away, we can just understand the meaning. Yet what was missing from my perspective(pretty much from the very beginning and I'm not kidding) was SF; since that was a part of their relationship from the beginning, it just hurts like heck. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think you and my H both suffer from that question. H and I had hit a point where our SF was a habit - he felt rejected, I felt used...SF was not a happy place in our home. And then with OM it happened.

You know what? It wasn't anything great. I wasnt into it, it wasn't what I was looking for in the affair. Sex was such a low point, but it was a means to get what I needed from the OM as screwed up as it sounds. It wasn't some torrid love affair where we were soulmates and meant to be. It was a screwed up deal from the beginning due to my screwed up way of thinking.

The SF part was the HARDEST for my H, he says it would have been easier if it had been just an EA...and funny enough - if his A had just been a PA, and not an EA it would have been easier for because emotional intimacy is something I crave and he gave that to someone else, and physical intimacy is something he craves and I gave it to someone else.

Do you guys have kids? How is your communication in the bed room? I know i had big hang ups in the SF area due to the fact of pressure, habits, kids and non- communication on my needs...do you guys talk safely about SF and your sexual needs?

My wife could have written your post! Seriously. Almost word for word.

SF has been a problem for me since the very beginning of our relationship. I started building resentment and it did affect how I looked at my wife. I did try and tell her the issues I was having with SF. It took me a while to realize the level of resentment but I did tell her a number of times. However, it didn't help because I just became more and more focused on what I was not gettting rather than what I was giving. I let my frustration affect my actions. One thing led to another and here I am now, posting to you!



Bingo.



Double bingo. Though the EA hurt just as much. It took 6 mos. before I found out that it had been, in fact, a PA. I remember crashing so incredibly hard when I realized I was losing her to someone else. Talk about the stages of grief. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What has been the most hard for me was that I grieved over the loss of our marriage to an EA just to have to do it all over again because of a PA and the issues tied to the PA as it relates to SF in our marriage.



Yep, have several of the gremlins. They keep me going. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Yes, all of this played a role, too. I pressured too much, and like you, my wife felt it. Resentment had been building for sometime though, and nothing has ever come to light about my not meeting needs for the first several years of our marriage. I think I tried hard to meet her needs until the resentment got the best of me and I just couldn't do it anymore.

H recently admitted this to me, like if you arent going to make the effort for me I wont for you.

Affection got to the point where he would only touch me if it meant sex, and so I got to the point where as soon as he would touch me I would make an excuse up assuming he wanted sex, then he would get angry and feel rejected.

This is all due to our lack of communication. H has become much more affectionate during all times of the day now, which means when he rolls over to cuddle me or touch me I don't think it's because he only wants sex and so I don't reject him...

He has also realized that excuses aren't always excuses - they are a reality - like the fact he is an oven to sleep beside and sometimes his body heat overheats me, and I just can't cuddle...or that on a really bad day I can't get emotionally into sex, so physcially for me I can't. Communication is the key...learned things about what he likes I never knew that he just assumed I should know and vice versa.

Communicate in the bedroom, make it safe for your wife...and don't feel rejected when she isn't in the mood - usually it's not you - and remember for women, foreplay takes place all day and its in all the little things you do all day - whether it's helping out with the kids, or doing the dishes, or just phoning to say you were thinking of her - oddly they get women in the mood emotionally lol

Yep, you do sound like my wife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />



I got so frustrated with SF before the affairs that I did, indeed, say this. (I think that this would be considered to be a love buster. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ) My affair had nothing to do with SF, though. I needed to feel loved. My wife had left me emotionally for someone else and the OW made me feel appreciated and cared for.



Point well taken. I did try and tell her my feelings regarding SF sometime ago, as I said. I told her that I didn't want to feel frustrated any more and if she said no because she had a headache, then please just say that. I practically begged her to give me a valid excuse rather than just have her ignore me. Hopefully, now that everything is crystal clear (as much as it gets) communication will become better. I just wish she had listend to me before and that I had not let resentment get in the way.

DS, how have each of your recoveries gone? I know that I am much more apprehensive than she is which is what led to this post in the first place. I'm trying to figure out what's going on in my head! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well in all honesty - we are just starting recovery...

My A took place in the fall. DDay was Dec 17. H started out in recovery strong, even used to post here. Helped a few folks out - but personally he was not doing so well...focused so much on the negatives that by April he started living seperate while in the same house.

I continued to seek spiritual councelling, continued to read, challenge myself, learn about myself. H discovered that maybe I wasn't what he wanted at all. By May he was dabling in single forums, forming friendships with women that were questionable...if you read my posts in May you would see what an emotional mess I was.

On June 2 he asked me for a seperation. The week before was filled with text messages from a girl saying night baby to me finding his singles forums and reading that he was seperated for months, and also him telling me he wanted a future with me...I didn't see the seperation coming as 2 days before, the text message girl he said he would call it off with...and being a WS, I didn't feel I could push the same things some of the BS's in here could push.

He didn't tell me he was leaving because he couldn't get over my A, he told me he was feeling guilty and didn't want to be the bad guy so he was leaving.

I left and stayed with my mom. He wouldn't talk to me for over 3 weeks, and only called the kids 3 times. His first contact was as he drove through town on the way back from his A weekend...and I guess he had alot on his mind.

The next day he called me up and confessed but fully expected me not to take him back, even told me he knew I needed time to process this info.

I told him I needed no time to process this, that my goal was our marriage, and no matter what had happened we can mke it work.

Within a week I was back home. That was 2.5 weeks ago. And my H is a different person...the same man I fell in love with except new too as he has a new lease on life, realizes that marriage is work and we can't neglect it ever again.

So now, we are going through recovery again. For my H, he tells me now, 8 months later, my A doesn't mean anything to him anymore as it's the past. It hurts him yes, but that doesn't change that he wants to grow old with me.

For me, I have my bad days where I am bombarded with thoughts as this is still recent for me...but I also realize that if I dwell or try too hard to understand, I might miss what is happening right now, so I refocus on making new memories, enjoying what we have right now, laying new foundations, and pretty soon I am not obsessing with thoughts.

We are just at the beginning of the journey, 8 months in, and this time we both know we will have ups and downs, but what we know without a doubt is our goal is the same...

WB-

I remember you from JFO. I think I posted to a similar question you asked. I will attempt to shed some more light. I hope it helps.

It sounds like you are just starting R, so I imagine your FWW feels very confused and is dealing with her own feelings about everything. She may not have all the answers herself. I would try to give her the benefit of the doubt when you are able and ask her about anything you feel does not make sense. Try to listen to her answers with an open mind. She needs to feel safe with you. If she feels you think she is a liar (even when she tells the truth), she will be hesitant to talk with you. I know I have had this problem with my H. There have been times when I was telling the truth and he accused me of lying (I have earned some of this because I was not entirely truthful for awhile). It is hard to be accused of being a liar when you are not lying. I also read you had had an A too, so she is also processing all of that too. In my sitch, I do not know all the answers myself (as I learn more, I imagine my answers have changed. And, at the beginning, I was still lying about the PA). I am trying to understand who I am, what got me here, etc. at the same time I am trying to recover my M. I never would have thought I would be here. It is all very overwhelming.

I will try to explain the issue of "love". First of all, it is not uncommon for WS to think they are "in love". They think the relationship is unique and special. I did not have a good sense of which ENs I needed met when I met OM. My PA started rather quickly as well. It did start as friends, but it progressed quickly for a few reasons: he was making big deposits everyday, we spoke for a few hours everyday (so the emotional connection was made much quicker than would have been in "normal" circumstances, so the PA started sooner as well. This is not uncommon of As), I was addicted to the way he made me feel (he met my ENs in the ways I needed them to be met and I had felt H had only wanted me for SF. Now that I look back, he did all the things my H used to do for me in the beginning of our relationship), and I have always been one to get physical with someone more quickly than average. (This siuation was no different. Just because it was an A, rather than a "normal" relationship, did not change my patterns of behavior. I am working on this with IC). Is any of this applicable to your W's sitch?

But, I can say I do not believe I was "in love" with OM. My H has asked me the same question, so I have been thinking a lot about it. I did have strong feelings for OM and cared about him a lot. I did love him, but I don't think I was in love (maybe that is still fog- it's possible I was in love). But, I have answered my H's question as honestly as I could too. Now, that I understand As better, I understand why things happened in my sitch. And, I think some of my personal demons came into play. For example, SF is not one of my top needs. However, I did not feel valued by my H in this area. OM made me feel valued and met ENs in the way that I needed it. SF was a natural progression of that.

Your W is no different than other WSs. I was in the fog very deeply, and if I had taken the time to "think", I would not have been in the A in the first place. The fog is what makes the A possible because most people would not have As otherwise. When OM and I had sex, it was the beginning of the end for me. I asked myself,"What the heII are you doing?" I soon went back into the fog, but I could not avoid those moments when the fog would clear. I did think about my H that day and I did wonder why I was risking everything. And, I kept thinking about him more and more. That is why I started pulling away from it. The PA was the first thing that started going and then the EA was the last to end. I did not miss the SF, I missed the ENs that were met.

I am going to put you on the spot a bit here. I re-read what you wrote about your own A and it seems you are judging your W based on what you did,"...my warped way of thinking would not let me cross that emotional barrier (think you meant physical here) until there was more than friendship." It seems like you are implying you are somehow better than her. The fog is the fog. Your fog allowed you to rationalize your actions by saying you were "in love" because good people do not cheat on their wives. So, being "in love" somehow made it less "wrong", like somehow being "in love" legitamizes your A. I think I also read another post which said her A was first. Sounds to me like there may be a bit of rationalizing of your actions on your part and/or fog. I imagine your W can sense this judgement and hear the rationalizing (I can understand, I did the same thing when I discovered my H's A.)

Because getting physical is what hurt you the most in your wife's A, that is what you are focusing in on. I know in my sitch, I was connected to OM before anything physical ever happened. I was not "in love" with him though. I would also ask you were "emotionally connected" to every woman you were ever physical with? I imagine there were people you kissed/fondled, etc. that you were not yet emotionally connected to. Maybe not, but you would be rare. Your W was not thinking when she did what she did. She was not consciously making a decision to risk her whole life and M. She was seeking the fix and that was all. You said you understand the fog, etc., but it seems you feel your W should have waited until she loved OM to be physical. It is not OK to have an A, regardless of how you feel about the OP. It seems you are applying this expectation to your W's sitch--almost like it would have been OK if she loved him. Is this because you thought you loved OW? As I said, it appears you are saying if she had loved him it would have been OK. She probably was falling in love. She did not conduct her A the way you did, that does not make hers more wrong than yours. Do you think your W is less hurt by your A because you think you "loved" OW?

I am not trivializing your feelings, I am the BS too, so I can relate to a lot of what you are feeling. I would say to you that you owe it your W and your M, to be honest with her in a caring way and give her the chance to answer you in a safe environment. For example, when I told my H the truth, he treated me really badly. He had some questions for me too, and I answered them the first day I got them, but our MC has decided to hold off on giving the answers to him. If you have thrown any of this in your wife's face, she may be scared to answer you because you treated her badly, so make it safe for her. She will probably be willing to share with you. You may want to do this with the MC.