Yikes, Improving. I wasn't looking for a 2 x 4 and not quite sure what I did to deserve it.



I realize this is important. As my anger at the affair has subsided, I have been more and more open to just talking about it. I wish she would tell me. I am not trying to judge her. How can I? I just want to understand. Part of my anger is because I don't get it. I'm not good with just moving on and not knowing how everything works and why. Not fair to place it on her, I know.




Tell me about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



Is that why the affair ended? Because it became sexual and not about your other needs? Is that an issue of intimacy or just a realization? Was it a situation like DeeplySorry whereby you where being sexual just to keep him around or was it something that you "wanted" to do. Again, I'm just trying to understand the dynamics of your situation so I can maybe see what my wife may have been thinking in a different light. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />



That makes sense.

But, if it wasn't about the sex, then why have it? I'm just dense, I guess. Everything is a choice. In my A, SF was something I had wanted to do. Was I apprehensive? Yes. Did I feel terribly guilty? Yes. It was about other needs much more than SF, but I can't say it wasn't about SF because otherwise I would not have done that. Am I making sense? I think that this is one of the primary reasons that I am having a hard time relating back to my wife - I don't follow the thought process. It seems, to me at least, that by my wife saying it wasn't about SF is being a bit dishonest. Maybe she is being dishonest with herself.



No. I meant emotional. Like you said, if I had stopped to think, I wouldn't be in the situation in the first place. But, I was in an A and I was falling for OW. However, SF was an emotional boundary - it was about making a significant emotional connection. It was not about just having sex.



Umm. No, she is not better than me. I take full responsiblity for my actions. I was an idiot. Plain and simple.

I was just trying to explain how I view sexual intimacy and intercourse and that because of that view, I had a hard time understanding my wife's viewpoint. Just because I don't get it doesn't mean I am trying to legitimize a darn thing. Was I in a fog. Absolutely. I certainly cannot blame my actions on a fog. That's a cop-out to me and I will never sit here and blame what I did to my wife on a fog. Did it affect how I viewed OW? Yes. But, my actions are still my actions and my decisions are still my decisions - fog or not. Did I care about OW at the time? Yes. Did I believe I was in love with OW? A fog-induced yes. True. My fault for getting into that situation 100 percent. Not my wife. I knew that I could not have SF with OW until I "realized" I was in love. That's just me.

I was just trying to say that SF in my A was different and I am trying to understand how her A worked. Because she can't tell me very well, I'm asking other people with similar situations to explain their story so that maybe I can know enough to put it behind me. Sorry that this seems to have struck a nerve with you. I just have this overwhelming need to know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



No, you are right. But, I'd like to think that I have grown a bit and have a healthier perspective on intimacy now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />



I know that. Still, knowing that doesn't make it hurt less. I need to understand for my recovery. That is who I am and what makes me tick. I am certainly not trying to say I am better than her. I just want to understand something that is troubling me and if I can understand it better, I believe that I can open my heart to her so much better. That is all.


Thanks for your post, Improving. I will reread more tonight. I may have some more questions for you. Thanks again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WB-

It was not my intent to give you a 2x4 per se, but I did tell you I was going to put you on the spot a bit. You said you wanted help and I saw some things in your posts that suggested (to me) a bit of rationalizing of your own A, so I brought it up because I felt if I could sense this, then maybe your W can too. And, ultimately, she is the one who matters most. So, consider with an open mind how she might feel if you said you could not understand how she could risk everything if she did not love OM (what is unsaid is--I risked everything too, but atleast I thought I loved OW). There is a sense that you are justifying your A because you also commented that you could not be physically intimate with someone you did not love.

You say you wish she would just tell you. I have a few things to say about this:

1- Have you asked her recently?

2- Have you made it safe for her?

3- How have you reacted in the past?

4- Is she afraid to rock the boat?

5- Have you acted willing to discuss the A-- yours as well as hers?

I agree that if you have anger at the situation that understanding it is important. But, I also agree with DS said that she may not understand it yet. She probably was shocked to find herself in an A in the first place and she has been processing that as well as her feelings about you and what you did. Again, these things are not logical. It seems you want a logical answer and you may never get it.

Not sure about your W, but my A started to end because I was starting to come out of the fog and I realized I wanted to be with my H and not OM. For me, I always wanted a future with H. That had not changed. I realized I did not want to risk everything for OM. And, that was when I started coming to my senses and I started pulling away from the A and OM.

I have to go, but I will answer more later. Again, I was truly trying to help--sometimes that means pointing out something you may not want to hear or admit to yourself.

That's precisely what I am trying to do here with this post and conversing with you. I know that my inability to understand this issue is a sticking point in our R. I want to get over that. I realize that our each affair was different and transpired for different reasons. I have never suggested that I am better. I have been extremely careful to never suggest that (though it did probably come out as a LB every now and then). I will continue to try and not "judge" her for her actions in the sense that I will never say "I would never have done that".

I think some of the judgement may be of her own making. Do you think that about yourself, Improving?



I have never denied that I risked everything, as well. Was it for different reasons? Sure. I just want to know how it worked from her side.



Here's what I wrote from my earlier post. I can't explain any differently what I am trying to get at:





I am trying to be more calm about everything and believe I have been very successful as of late. She knows that it is a major point for me but I do not want to push her on it.



This is a problem for me. There is a reason for everything. It may be hard to find. It may lie deep down in her childhood. But, to say there is no logical reason for what she did is a cop-out. She may have not thought logically, but, therein itself is a logical reason. I did not act rationally or logically, either. But, in looking back, I see exactly what I was trying to get from my A and why I did what I did. Was I a terrible person at the time? Heck ya. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But, if I am to R and be assured that this will not reoccur, I need to have a better sense of why things happened the way they did. Again, this may not be such a major issue with me if SF had been ok in our M. As DeeplySorry said, her H is in the exact same boat. To have such significant SF issues in the marriage and then find out that your W had SF very quickly with OM just crushes my ego. I can't help it. I don't want to blame her just understand so I can heal myself and move on with her.



This is about the same for her.

Thanks, Improving, for your insight. This has all really helped me understand things a bit better. I am looking forward to anything else you may have to say. And no, I am not upset that you pointed something out. That's fine with me. It just was the tone. Thanks, though! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

One thing Sprint (my H) had to figure out, and his affair helped him I guess, was that he will never understand my reasons as our thought patterns are VERY different. He is a very analytical person, I am a very emotional person and don't think analytically at all...

He spent 8 months trying to figure out my reasons based on his analytical mind and it drove him so far that eventually he hit bottom and wanted out.

While having an A, he did realize how people can get from one point to another point and how people use justifications to manipulate while you are in that frame of mind, he still doesn't understand my reasons, as his were different - he wanted out, he didn't want me, he wanted her...while my reasons were I wanted my marriage, but I wanted the attention and support, I wasn't convinced I didn't love my H, I was convinced he didn't love me.

Whats funny is I can't understand how you want out so bad that you can abandon your children, your life etc - which is what he did...and how his justifications worked as they don't make sense to me....but just like me, he doesn't understand my justifications. And he doesn't understand how I could do something like that while still loving him as my actions show I didn't - we were both screwed up but in different ways as we are very different people and think very differently...patterns to the A's may have been similar but that's where all similarities stop.

My point is, in order for us to be where we are right now, we had to LET GO of understanding...this was much harder for Sprint...but now that he has done it - focusing on the future is much easier. I am also learning to let it go....although it's very fresh for me...but the future is what we need to understand, not the past.

I hope that helps a bit?

This is something that I want to avoid doing. I realize that this issue is significant to me and does affect my being able to relate to my Mrs.



I do get this. I guess I am saying it thusly: I don't think I have yet to hear the justification for the SF. SF is a big issue for me so, as part of my own personal recovery and my own sense of self, I would like to know what my wife was thinking as regards to SF. I know that it was foggy at the time, yes but I would like to know. See, DS, you said that you did the SF to keep the attention from OM going. That, to me, makes sense. I could hang my hat on that and use it to help me move on.

Yet, all I get is that SF just kinda happened (though it was planned). Huh? If it was planned, it was planned for a reason. I need to know the reason. The reason may not be what I would do, but it is at least a reason as best as she understands it. My wife may not understand my reason, and my reasons for SF, conversation with OW, etc., but I explained what I was doing in the best way I could. I need that from her. I guess what I am saying is that with her telling me that SF was just sort of there, it makes me feel like I'm being taken for a ride again. If she had SF because she loved him, then just say it so I'm not played for a fool again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />



I want to make this my mantra. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And, I think I have been getting there. Maybe saying I have to understand is the problem. I just need to know the why rather than the mechanics of it all.

I wanted to add something here. I don't know much about you and your wife...but in all my self analyzing and digging deep into my core I discovered that I had some large co-dependency issues. I felt if I wasn't needed, I wasn't loved, and also gave gave gave, and when it came time when I needed some support - it wasn't there. I had 3 surgeries in 5 months, with the last one being pelvic reconstruction and loosing my uterus (I was 27) - but Sprint was loosing his business, just lost his best friend, and was focused on himself. I wasn't okay with loosing my uterus, but pretended I was for his sake, but he stopped including me in his business affairs due to his stress...I no longer felt needed, I no longer felt loved (so far from the truth - but how I saw things there) Then the resentment kicked in as I wanted him to be there for me...and depression took hold, and the negative cycle started until just before I met OM, I was ULTIMATELY convinced my H had never loved me. Negative thinking does nasty things...

I also recently realized this was a pattern in my life. My brother was always the needy one, me the independent one. I was always left to manage on my own (or so I perceived it) and at 16 I cut my hand open on purpose to see what my parents would do. They said to take myself to the hosp to see if I needed stiches...I was mad. Still ahve the scar...moved out at 18 and forgot the incedent. But I also remember a few years later when I broke up with a boyfriend, and life was at a low, doing some pretty wild things that today I would be ashamed of - once again, a cry of sorts for attention.

I realized I have a cycle of self-destructive behavior that surfaces when I need to cope - when I don't feel needed.

The last 7 months, I haven't been needed, my H made it very clear - even left, and I used this time to implement new coping tools...as that would have been the prime time for me to get self destructive. I learned how to reorganize thought patterns, and learn that needing some one does not relate to loving someone.

I made it - and I am so proud of myself. I learned valuable tools and bettered who I am, so next time I have to cope - I have the skills I need to do so.

My point that I am making is, has your wife looked at her behavioral cycles, how she copes with things - things that may be minor to YOU, but major to her. Is she a Conflict Avoider?

If she is like me, then honestly - her affair was more a self-destructive cry for attention than a love affair. Hopefully her councellor will look into these things with her and help her out.

I hope you get the answers you need, or learn to accept that you may not understand.

And give her time...8 months later I am still learning things about myself....3 months post I didn't know all I know now...it comes bit by bit and self analyzing is hard...so it depends how much looking at herself she can take at a time too.

Thanks for the insight.

I am just finding out that I am co-dependent and I am starting to learn how my co-dependency and my wife's abandonment issues worked against each other. I do not have periods of time in which I acted out in a manner similar to you, but I probably have done so in my own little way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

And, I am the conflict avoider. Big time. As a co-dependent, I never wanted to upset the Mrs. Bad move as she wanted me to set boundaries with her. She wanted and needed me to stand up to her. I have to learn to do that but not do so in a way that offends her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />



Yeah, I know this feeling. It had been there because of the lack of SF but was compounded to death by her A. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />



Haven't gotten to all of this work yet in IC. What kinds of things are you talking about? I guess my biggest fear at the moment is I am going to find out that I never really "loved" my wife but "needed" her instead. Don't get me wrong, I do love her and care for her deeply but I wonder if I never had a healthy perspective on the marriage from the start. I think that is the hardest part of R for me was that the affairs led me to think that there was something better and more healthy out there. Some of that was hurt and some of that was fog. Absolutely. I guess I am afraid to find out that some of that was true and whether or not I can love the new Mrs because of that. Now, I am not saying that Mrs. Wonk and I won't make it. Just voicing a fear.

I couldn't find a good councellor here, so I dug into alot of self help books (Christian based) joined a Christian Recovery program called Celebrate Recovery - deals with Alcoholics, Drug Abusers, People with Addictions (all - gambling, drugs, sex), co-dependency, conflict avoiders - anything that you need to recover from. It's like the 12 steps in AA, but there are 8 principals based on God instead.

I also talk to a spiritual councellor - she is not a physcologist, etc - but it has kept me focused on me...

It's been hard too as when I discover something hard about myself - I want to deny it, run and hide...so it has taken alot of will power to accept it and learn about it...I think a councellor is what helps you to look at those things, not to run from them and learn new ways and keep you at it...God has been my backbone for that. And knowing my 5 year old daughter could subconciously pick up these patterns from me...I want to curb this so she doesn't learn this is how relationships work!

I had that fear too as when Sprint left, I was questioned with - do you love him, or the relationship...After alot of thought, even though I couldn't pin point why - I knew it was him I loved. I was at a point in my life where I knew I was a better person than I was before, and that I could meet a wonderful man under good circumstances and have a chance at making a new start and having a healthy relationship.......and I realized as much as that appealed to me....it wouldn't have been Sprint...it was HE i wanted the relationship with.

WB-

Unusual name <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Your assumption seems to be that your W had no connection with OM just because she feels she was not "in love". She probably had a connection with him (as I did with mine), though it had not yet progressed to being "in love". So, you were willing to have intercourse with OW once you thought you were "in love"? How long did it take for your A to progress to actual intercourse? (curious, since you seem caught up in your W's timeline) Again, have to wonder how much the fog was helping you rationalize your behavior then and now.

I think we may need to agree to disagree about whether you came across as suggesting you are better than her. From what you are writing, it feels like you are and I think your W may too. Is it possible you are still in the fog a bit (I know it has taken me months to be able to look at what I did honestly and own my behavior. For a long while, I rationalized to my H- to protect myself from the horror of what I had done. Is it possible you are doing the same? Are you more honest with yourself about your A than you were last month? I suspect next month you will be able to see your actions even more clearly.) I know I feel that way in my own sitch--my H seems to feel that his was justified because he waited until he "loved" her before he had any SF with her. Well, to me, that hurts more--that he could think he was "in love" with someone else within a month and start having SF so soon. It does not make me feel any better that he cheated on me, but he thought he loved her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Also, he gave me the well-known comment of WS, "I don't think I love you anymore". He did not say that until OW was in the picture (I checked the dates).

I think that I judge myself, for sure. But, the judgement I sense coming from my H is entirely different. I do not judge myself from the viewpoint of how could I risk everything if I did not love OM? I judge myself on the fact that there were points that I could have stopped--when the fog cleared momentarily-- and I made the worst choices of my life. I judge myself on being weak and selfish. I judge myself for hurting the one person who I never wanted to hurt. I judge myself for the fact that I did not have any honor. I watch my wedding video and I feel ashamed when I see myself promising to be faithful. I cannot ever look myself or anyone in the eye without knowing I failed...my kids, my husband, and myself. That is a difficult burden to bear.

But, I also understand As and how they work. H was not meeting my most important ENs in the way I needed him to and had not been for years. My H, like you, became focused on the SF and the more he focused on the SF, the less he focused on the other things that mattered. He was upset that SF changed from the way it was in the beginning, but he changed to and did not meet my needs the way he had been when we were dating and I did not feel he made deposits that would make it more likely he would get SF-- affection, conversation, admiration, etc. If he touched me it was only for the hope of having SF, he did not touch me because he cared about me. He did not touch me to soothe me or make me feel loved. I did not feel valued or cared for. I did not feel that he cared about me. I felt like I could have been anyone--it did not matter that it was me.

And, when it came to the SF, after a time, there was no romance, no foreplay, and no real effort to meet my SF needs too. Sometimes, it was actually painful because no effort was made to "heat the oven". For so long, I asked for the romance and the conversation. For so long, I wanted those affectionate gestures. I wanted the man I had dated and he was gone. He wanted the SF and I wanted my needs met.

Anyway, I was living my life and feeling not so content at times, but not really understanding why. Then, OM comes along and we start to talk. A little at first and then more and more. He listens to me and gives me eye contact. He is totally focused on what I am saying. He is making big deposits. Then, I am finding myself attracted to this OM who really is not that attractive. But, he is doing all the things my H used to do when we dated. He made me feel special and valued. He understood me when I explained my feelings about my depression and being a SAHM. Then, he started to meet my need for admiration. He said I was a good mom and a good nurse. Big deposits. He would comment on how nice I looked. More deposits. I found myself being sucked into this A and I could not get out. I was addicted big time. All of these unmet needs were being met. The SF did not "just happen". It was a build-up over time (as I said, I tend to get physical more quickly and he made HUGE deposits over a brief period of time--just as my H had in the beginning of our relationship). One day, he kissed me and I was not expecting it. It was a natural progression of the deposits that were being made, I had strong feelings for him. And, even in SF, he was considerate of me.

I imagine it was no different for your W. Women need to feel emotionally connected to have the desire for SF (and the stress of daily life significantly affects libido too, so an A is an escape from life's realities too). From what you describe, sounds like you were resentful about the lack of SF early on, you proably stopped caring for her and meeting her needs, she felt uncared for and devalued, so she did not want SF. And, you did not want to meet ENs (though she asked you to) and she did not feel close enough and valued enough to want SF after a while. Vicous (sp?) cycle.



This conflicts with what you say you do not understand about her A. She said it was not about the SF, it was the other needs she was having met. Yet, after a point of caring for OW, the natural progression is you wanted SF...but the A "had nothing to do with SF". This is no different than what your W said. She said it was not about SF for her either, it was about those other needs that were being met.



Why do you think she has not already explained it the best way she knows how? You may not understand, but she explained the best she knew how. I think you are pushing her for an answer, and when she cannot give it, you are calling it a cop-out. This is the second time you have used that term. Consider giving her some of the *patience* you have asked for. In my sitch, each month finds me understanding things better, it does not mean I am lying or "copping out". I am doing the best I can with what I know now.

Anyway, you did not answer the numbered questions, but I would consider them again. Does she know you want to talk about it (she cannot read minds)? Have you asked her questions directly recently? Are you making it safe for her to talk to you? Have you asked her to share with you since you have opened your mind to it? Does she think you do not want to talk about it? Have you said that? Why would she think that has changed? Do you respect her when she tells you the truth? Do you make her feel safe and valued? She is the one you need these answers from, not us.

Remember, an A happens because needs were not being met. Are you also looking at the message of the A? What did she need that you were not giving her? Have you considered that she probably felt frustrated for years that her needs were not being met and you went out and met those most important ENs with OW? She was probably devastated by that as you were about the SF. The needs each of you wanted met were met for the OP. Her pain is no different (or less valid) than yours.

Hope all this rambling helps <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

DS-

I can relate so much to a lot of what you are saying. I did not feel my H cared for me at times and that all I was to him was a means to get SF. I knew logically that he did care for me, but he was not always showing it. And, it hurt me that I had explained that if I felt valued in other areas, I would be more inclined to want SF and he said he did not want to meet my needs because I was not meeting his. That really hurt. Now, I know better what my ENs were, I was not always really clear on that. And, when I was having my health trouble and depression, I felt abandoned by H. I felt like he never understood or valued my contribution.

We had a similar experience in the beginning of our M when I had a physical crisis that affected my ability to have SF for about a year. I was ashamed and embarressed and I found myself having to say,"No" to SF so often, that it truly became a habit. Then, H felt rejected and unloved and not valued, and then he did not meet my ENs and then I did not want SF and round and round we went. We had some kids thrown in there, weight issues and more health problems.

My concern is that I am not sure I see my H talking responsibility for his role in all this and he has done some re-writing of marital history and seems to still be a bit foggy in his thinking. Has your H started to see his role in all this after time has gone on? I want a new M where my most important ENs are met, but so are H's. And, I want a H who takes responsibility for his actions that got us here. I am willing to give him a chance to be the H I need, I want him to give me that same chance. We both did not meet all needs, we both had As, we both got us here. But, there was certainly no malice. We thought we were happy and in many ways, we were. But, we were not meeting those most important ENs. And, now is our chance to do it right now that we know how.

Sprint still seems a little foggy over his A in the sense sometimes I get the idea he blames my A completely for why he had his, but I also have heard him say his justifications during that time were wrong - this is what I meant in another post by having to learn my husbands "language" - he is saying what I want to hear, but in his own way - and I used to miss that as I figured I needed to hear it the way I would say it.

The biggest thing he tells me though, is even though he is sorry for his A, he is more sorry for the way things were pre-A - he realized that early on post my D-Day and it's what contributed to his negative cycle - how would I love a man that did that to me, blah blah blah.

But pre- his A, he was also convinced he was entirely happy and didn't understand how I couldn't be. He sees now that what is happy is his world, might not be happy in my world...also learning to speak my "language" H also rewrote all history in the past 3 months, but now he sees how is mind was clouded. In H's case, he links commitment directly with love, hense when I broke commitment, there was no love for him...but the day he called me to confess and figured I would need time like him, so forth and so forth, and I said no I don't need time, he and my marriage was what I want, he said it was a wake up call and he realized how comitted I have been over the past 8 months, and still was. And each day those positive memories that he wrote our of our life started coming back to him.

My mom gave us that advice funny enough - that we both are saying what we want to hear, but neither of us understands us as we don't speak eachother's language.

So now, I am taking the time to really HEAR what he is saying instead of expecting that he will say it the way I want to hear it - kinda cryptic, but I am learning it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He realizes where he failed, and also sees the comittment I have made over the past 8 months to change who I am to help with my failures...and I am starting to see the change in him.

He still doesn't understand how he got to this point now...as he told me - he never thought of reconciliation, he was headed for a divorce even though he was telling me this is just a seperation, not a divorce. We don't talk alot about his as I am hearing what I need to hear from him by listening to his words...one night I did fight with him as I tried pushing to hear it the way I wanted to hear it - I realized how unproductive that was.

While I agree with you that your most important EN's were not being met and I do agree that leads to an affair, I do believe there are also many things deep within you that allowed it to happen besides EN's. And that's why I dug so deep within myself. Were you a conflict avoider - did you ever make your needs completely clear to your H? I know I tried subtly and got shot down and avoided the conflict...I realize now with my H - subtly wont work, and I can't back down...had I known how to control that before then maybe I wouldn't have ended up where I did?

WB-



What do you think the "different reasons" were? You were not getting needs met- you had an A. W was not having her needs met- she had an A. Same thing.





Again, how do you think things were different? Seems like you are caught up on the idea she did not love him (again, seems as though you would feel "better" if she had "loved" him as you thought you "loved" OW). I imagine your W had strong feelings for the OM that led to SF. The same as your A. The only difference seems to be that you are making the distinction that you "loved" the OW. So, seems like you have gotten caught up in the level of her feelings for him. If she had cared enough about him to "love" him, then the A would be more acceptable? But, having really strong feelings that were not yet love, is not OK to proceed to SF? It sounds like you would understand her A better if she had done what you had done.





Can you explain this more? Seems very foggy. The way I read it is you are saying that the A helped you see "...that there was something better and more healthy out there". Are you saying the A was better and more healthy than a real relationship that is not a fantasy and that does not hurt others? That's the problem with As--they feel so great and right, that's why it is so hard to end them. But, you have to remember, we all feel good at the beginning of a relationship before the stress of "normal life" hits. That's why the comparison of the A to the M is so unfair because one is a new, untested relationship with no pain/scars. Of course it looks better. If you are comparing the A to your M, it is an unfair comparison and will hinder your R. The two are not the same and it is like comparing apples and oranges. The A tends to look more enticing. I hope this is not what you are implying you are doing because this would be very unfair to your W, R, and your M.

And you are afraid you cannot love the new Mrs. because of__________? And, who do you think the "new Mrs." is? I am a bit confused -- can you elaborate?

Good questions. Hope this helps.

Improving

I wanted to add something...

As a woman, did you know that the fact that you LOVED OW would hurt me 20 million times more than the fact that you slept with her? Have you realized that your LOVE for OW may have hurt your wife as much as her loveless SF with OM may have hurt you?

Woman want emotional intimacy and that's why the SF may not have been important to her...

But just like I don't understand why the SF hurts men so much more than the relationship, H may never understand why his emotional relationship hurts me more than if it was a quick sexual thing.

It's why you can't compare or try to understand it based off you - I went down that road and realized that you can't go down that road without comparing, so don't go down that road.

This just hit me hard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Maybe, and likely, it is the fog, but I can't say this as 100 percent certain for myself. I still feel that I am doing stuff for the M because I need to give it the chance rather than I would die on the sword for it. I do care, deeply, about my Mrs. I really do. But the person who I would have done anything for is dead to me, in a way. I grieved so hard when I found out about her A. I never experienced such pain (everyone on this board knows that feeling). But, I lost something I felt for her during that time. In the meantime, I'm working on foregivness. I am working on myself. Eventually, I hope that those feelings do return.

Wonk,

From what I read on here - that is very normal and healthy for a spouse to get to the point where they realize they can live without thier spouse.

My mom told me something I hang on to. Love is not a feeling, it is a choice, it is a by product of work. Taking away the A and the current pain, you married her and had kids with her for a reason and vice versa...

You need to at this moment, CHOOSE to work, CHOOSE to love...and eventually a by product of that work on the marriage will be love again.

You need to work on yourself, and as for forgiveness, you can't forgive if you are dwelling on the past.

Has she show you she wants to make this work - do you doubt her intentions? If you doubt it - then you guys need to talk but if you don't doubt that she wants to make this work - then work on those positives - stay focused on them - stay focused on the kids...and have patience...I know I am an impatient person - but I realized it may be years before things are normal again...but it's a choice I am making.

Would not doubt that one bit. It was quite foggy.

I think that you and I are missing each other. I am not trying to say one bit that she was worse and my affair was better. I am really not trying to judge her. I just know that I need to understand her affair from her perspective better. I will be the first to say that maybe I am not being very clear what I am trying to say and get at. I am just throwing out my feelings and how I approached my A as just being my perspective. Foggy or not, it is how I viewed it. And, foggy or not, SF was never just sex - either with OW or Mrs. Wonk. Now, this is just my perspective on things. However, Mrs. Wonk thinks and does things differently. Seeing as I don't think in the same way as her, I need to get a better idea as to what she was thinking at the time. See to me, planning SF is making the decision to take an EA to a PA. It may not be logical thought at the time, but on some level, it is a decision - fog-based or not. That is how I view it. I was able to make that decision because I believed that I was in love with OW. Yes, I may have been using the fog to justify my actions. Sure. I don't deny that.

Mrs. Wonk says that SF just happened. That's not asufficient for me. Did it just happen because he said he was well built? Did it just happen because she thought he was cute and sweet and being intimate with him sounded really wonderful? Did it happen because she hadn't been to the gym in a while and needed a workout? Am I making any sense? I'm not trying to unlock the mysteries of the universe here, but just saying "I don't know" makes me think that once again, I'm not being told the truth. I guess for me, it's radical honesty. DeeplySorry said that SF was her way of keeping him around and the affection, etc. Well, if I got that quick and dirty explanation, I would be able to wash my hands of it.



I heard this, too. It makes me so sad because I wish Mrs. Wonk had been able to "hear" what I was really saying all of those years. I so much wanted to be close to her - emotionally. I tried to meet her needs as best as she could tell me what they were. Now, I think we both have a better idea as to what she needed and what was missing but I believe that what she needed to feel and hear from me was there all the time - she just couldn't hear it in the way I expressed it, I guess. Yeah, I will admit that I did get resentful after a point. Like Dorry said, as a co-dependent you give, give, and give (at least in the way co-dependent's think, mind you) and then when you need something in return you don't get it and you end up crashing hard.



Understatement, Improving, understatement. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />



You are right. I do need to be patient yet it's hard because I do need more in order to R.



No, I have looked at the message of the A. It has helped me to forgive her and myself. I'll never forget what happened but I do now realize that I can foregive. Neither Mrs. Wonk nor I have any more or less pain than the other. Just different. I'm just trying to sort through my pain by understanding her better. I just don't want a passing wave at the fog as the reason for everything, however.

I think what Imporving is trying to say is it sounds like because you loved OW, what you did was less worse than your wife.

I know that's not what you are trying to say - but it comes across that way - as if you were justified because you fell in love with OW, while if she didn't love OM, she wasn't justified. And i know that's not what you mean.

How long ago was d-day? Because it takes time for some people to come to these realizations...your wife may still be figuring things all out.

WB-

Did you see my post from 11:11PM yesterday? What were your thoughts?

Exactly!

Yes, a cycle to say the least. I do have a question, and I do not mean to imply squat - it's just food for discussion. I have wondered whether focusing on ENs has almost hindered solving the true problems in the relationship. Yes, on a superficial level, it is about needs. However, based upon what you said, do you feel that had your H been faithfully meeting all of your needs that you would have been more open to SF? Dorry, this is a question for you, too, as I would appreciate your insight as a fellow co-dependent. I "believed" that I was being a good husband by "giving". A typical thought of co-dependents. Is it possible, just a question, that I really was meeting her needs but she "wouldn't" allow me to be successful? Yes, it's possible that I wasn't meeting exactly what she needed. It's also possible that she didn't know exactly what she needed either. But, is it also possible that she didn't want me to succeed? Does that make any sense?



I find that I have enough of my own issues to worry about than what my Mrs. Wonk is doing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />