Yep. I'll get there in a jiffy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I do realize that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm printing this out for future reference, so to speak. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes for sure - esp if she was a co-dependent too..and looking for her needs to be met exactly as she thought it should be. It goes back to what i was saying about speaking your wife's language and her speaking yours. Also though I ALWAYS thought I was meeting H's needs, and when we did the emotional questionnaire, it turned out I was meeting them the way I would want mine to be met, and vise versa...but in reality we are different people.

For example, he was meeting my needs for affection/attention by doing little things for me such as watch the kids, pick up - but what I really wanted was an email to tell me he was thinking of me, or something he planned for us that he put some effort into...I never had told him HOW to meet my needs, so he was meeting them in the way he would want that need met - does that make sense?

But IMHO affairs are more than just NOT meeting someones needs, because in life, depending on what's going on your needs may go unmet for periods - it's part of marriage...what you both need to figure out is what deep inside both of you ALLOWED you both to cross your moral boudaries. Co-denpendency and how it works can definately be a personal contributor to this.

That's what I have been trying to say all along. I am not trying to say I am better. I am just trying to say that the way I view intimacy, love, and SF is one way. Because of that, I don't know if I understand Mrs. Wonk's A. It's not a judgement. Just trying to comprehend.

WB-

I understand your fear because I feel it too. I think it would be odd if you did not feel it. You and your W have been through a lot and it sounds like you are trying to understand yourself too. This is all very confusing and scary. But, considering it sounds like you just found about the PA (when you had already grieved the EA), you are very early into this. It's like you have been betrayed twice and are waiting for the next revelation. BS have to protect their hearts from the WS-- that is what you did, I am sure. It's hard to start allowing the FWS in because you risk getting hurt. It's a bit too soon to be willing to put all your eggs in one basket again. It will take time to trust again and love again. She is probably scared too. She is probably feeling some of the same fears you have. She may not show them to you (I don't to my H), but I bet she feels them--we all do. And, women are usually more in-tune with themselves and their emotions.

And, how far out from your own A ending are you? It usually takes about 6 mos for the fog to dissapate from NC. If there was any contact, then the clock restarts. So, I imagine some of it is the fog. Some it is the fear of getting hurt again--you never expected this person to hurt you and now she has.

On average, it takes a M 2 years to look "normal" after an A. In your case (and mine and DS'), there were 2. I imagine that this affects the time regarding R too. All of this takes time. As they say, it is a roller coaster. You can choose to be paralyzed by your fears and not open your heart again (and your M will fail), or you can give your M the chance it deserves. You both have failed each other in some ways. Now, is your chance to find out what you can have with her, but you will never know if you do not open your heart and risk being hurt again.

Some of what you may be feeling is residual fog/WD, marital history re-writing, etc. You have a long way to go with your W. Are you going to open your heart to her again and risk being hurt for the reward of having her love you the way you always wanted?

what was Mrs. Wonk's sexual history prior to you - had she had one night stands before? Was sex something you guys had on date #1?

I know in my case - I was like that...I had 2 one night stands in my past (long before my marriage)...sex wasn't something that meant love had to be involved - it was part of my self-destructive behavior and need for attention...it added to my problems in my marriage when sex did become making love, and then due to lack of affection, etc it started to become just sex again...

WB-

Is is possible that you subconsciously think yours was not as bad, but you do not realize it? We can argue about this, or you can listen to what we are saying. You are coming across to us (and we don't know you) this way. Has your W ever said that she felt you thought you were better? Many times my H will say he can sense something in my tone, but I do not realize it is there. Can you (temporarily) accept that you are coming across like you do think you are better? I feel (as does DS), that this is showing. If we see it, I bet W does too. Think of how she might feel knowing that you think you are somehow better than her. Think how it might feel to have the one thing that broke her heart the most ("love" of OW) about your A, be the thing that you use to explain your actions and to judge hers. Just because your W did not say she loved OM, does not mean she did not have feelings for him.

Have you asked your W to explain any of this again to you, so you can understand it? When was the last time you discussed her A and she was able to feel safe enough to answer your questions. This seems to be a real sticking point for you, yet, have you asked her about it recently? You said you CA. Seems like you may be doing that with her on this topic. Now that she has not been in the A for awhile, and is not in the fog as much, she may be able to answer your questions better (and she probably knows the answers better now). Have you asked her recently? You seem to be getting more and more upset about this topic, but you have not come back to us yet and said you asked her. My H is a CA too and if he was this confused, I would want him to show me he was changing by giving me the chance to answer. It's not fair to W to keep getting more and more upset when she has not had the chance to answer again and clear this up. You keep saying to R, you need the answers--why haven't you asked her for them? I think asking her is the best thing to do.

What are you trying to improve on in your M? How are you going to be a better H to your W? What did you do that got you here. I hear you saying you gave and gave, but your W obviously needed her needs met differently. Now, is your chance to do it the way she needs you to do it. I bet she was resentful after a point too. As DS said, if you want to dwell in the past, you are not giving R much chance. Can you accept she did not meet your needs as you did not meet hers? Now, is the chance to focus on what can be, not on what wasn't. Do you want to be the H she needs and allow her close enough to your heart to be the W you want?

DS-

I can really relate to what you are saying. I, too, had one-night stands and had sex with H very early. I know that I tend to get too physical too fast and that is related to my childhood. There did not have to be love.

When sex with H became similar to sex with other men (lack of loving gestures, foreplay, etc.), it was not as special anymore. I needed him to do those things to make me feel cherished and he didn't and so I didn't. It went from making love to f'ing and that hurt a lot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, sure does make sense. I've heard it, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



I guess that is where I am trying to get to. It "sounds" like sometimes Mrs Wonk is trying to say it thusly: you didn't me my needs. I didn't meet your needs. We both met other people. Fog rolled in. We finally meet each other's needs. Fog burns off.

But there is more to it. It's deeper. But, that's just me maybe.

Yes, about two months ago.


Which is which? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Don't know a lot about her sexual history. But yes, we had sex on our first date. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />



This is the type of insight I was looking for. All I am saying is that I view things differently so my A went along differently. I want to know what her views are but it seems like all I get is "because".

Sometimes it sounds like my H is doing the same thing - cept not the needs thing - like okay - you had an affair, I was hurt, I wanted out- I met someone, left had the affair, but we are okay now - done deal.

But it's in all the other little things he says that i realize he is analyzing and dealing with things, just not how I "THINK" he should be. You see I did lots of self analyzing tourture and I did it right off the bat, I questioned, did this did that and learned alot...so in my always have to be right personality I feel that well - in order for him to heal and figure this out -he needs to do it my way....

This is the wrong way for me to think; just because I figured things out this way - and in the time frame I did, doesn't mean he will. And you know what - he may NEVER figure out the depth of things i did...some people don't.

What I look at is the fact he is here, and I listen to the things he says now - and i can hear things he is figuring out...it's now I how I would do it - and I don't agree with the things he has figured out sometimes - but i also realize that his mind is different and what he has figured out may be just right for him, while my mind won't understand it.

The biggest thing I see too are his actions. I can see the genuine love in the things he does, I have NO doubt this is where he wants to be. I do not know if he is missing OW, nor do I care...I see in his actions things i didn't see for months. So he can't articulate alot of it...I have learned that's okay. I mean really - is our future going to based on him articulating things the way I want to hear them or the way my mind "THINKS" things should be figured out or said? No because that is just my mind...what works for me, doesn't for him.

Do you think that MAYBE you are putting those expectations on your wife - that your method of figuring things out is the right way? If your wife takes her time, figures things out differently, or doesn't articulate everything - will that effect your goal?

Mainly it comes down to what is your goal? Is a happy working loving marriage your goal? If it is - then why are you letting these things stand in your way?

Also - I hear alot about her A....there are two A's here - what have you guys discussed about yours - have you expressed remorse to her? How is she handling it - maybe her lack of talking is because she is not only dealing with her guilt and remorse, but her pain too, and can't cope like you can?

Don't get cranky. I am trying hard to follow along. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



We don't often because she gets defensive and brings up what I did. One affair at a time please... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



I will really try to keep this in mind. So, how do I approach my questions, then? I don't want to come across this way.



Well, true. It is where I want to be but some of this is still part of the grieving process. When I first found out about her situation, I got very depressed and could barely do anything. Then, I found myself in an A and we spent most of our time fighting and dealing with her grief about my A - I never got to grieve over my own loss.

Have you shown her MB? Has she come here to read and learn. It's one place where for the most part you can come, learn, get support and not feel judged for your actions if you are trying to do the right thing now.

Yes. Do I think my own demons would not have come into play? No. But, so would his. We each bring our past with us. I have never dated anyone who continued to meet my needs, so I cannot tell you for sure how I would act. Just as your W met SF in the early parts of your R, you met her needs in the early part. We give so much when we are dating and that is what we fall in love with. Then, those things go away. We assume the love will always remain, but we do not continue to nurture the R. I told my H exactly what I needed to feel closer to him and to want SF more-- he made the choice to not meet those needs. I did talk to him and share what I wanted (as he did with SF), but I still did not get them met. I think my H, like you, is focusing a lot on me, and not looking at himself and his contributions to this mess. We are equally to blame for what got us here and now is the time for each of us to step up to the plate and work on making a better M.

I understand what you are saying WB. I do not think it is necessarily as "simple" as meeting needs. But, I can tell you this-- if I had felt appreciated and valued by my H, then I doubt many of my own personal demons would have come into play because I would have been fulfilled and content.

I get the impression from what you write that you think you met her needs. I bet she would tell you otherwise. And, ultimately, it is about how she needs them met and how often. My H made me happy in many ways, but there were things missing--I just did not know what. Now, I do and I don't want them to be missing anymore.

What?

I don't know which is which, but the ultimate question is - are you committed to making your M work? If you are, then work with your W to make it happen. It certainly won't happen if you won't talk to her about these feelings. You need to change your patterns too. Try sharing with her what is in your heart. Let her back in. Talk with her. Tell her what you need and what you have learned about yourself. Give her that same chance. I wonder (after reading your posts) if my H is feeling the same things <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I would want him to tell me. You seem to be upset with your W, but not giving her a chance to answer your concerns. It probably is not as simple to her as you think it is. And, her previous answers may have been rationalizations and fog-talk. Has she apologized more recently? Does she seem to be more aware of the pain she caused you? Well, as she does these things and comes to terms with them, she will start acting like herself again. But, it will take time. Give her the patience you have asked her for. Talk to her. Don't waste another minute trying to figure her out-- just ask. What is holding you back?

My thoughts exactly.

Tell her in a non-LB way what you are feeling. "Mrs. Wonk, I am having a hard time with your explanation about SF in your A. As you know, this is very difficult and painful for me. But, I feel I need to understand what the chain of events in your A was so I can understand this all better. I will not LB you and I will listen respectfully with an open mind. If you prefer, I can write my questions down and you answer them verbally or in writing. What would you prefer?" As DS said, she may not give an explanation you can understand because she is not you. She can tell you the truth the best she knows it and that is all you have a right to expect. It may take some real soul-searching and counseling on her part to understand this herself. You need to respect her and be patient. Make her feel safe so she will talk with you. And, you need to really think about what you need to know. You will never be able to erase the images from your brain--think long and hard about the questions you ask. And, don't throw in her face what she tells you. If you want honesty, do not punish her for giving it to you.

I bet if you asked her, she would say she has not had enough time to talk about your A either. She may not be getting defensive when she brings up your A, she may just be desparate to be able to talk about it. That is how women communicate- one topic leads to the next. Like a chain. Have you given her ample opportunity to talk about your A?

WB- I would suggest to you something I just started learning within the last few months. I cannot change H, I cannot make him do anything. So, when things do not go the way I hoped, I try not to point my finger of blame at him, I try to look inward at what I could have done different. Are you doing the same?