2 long:

I know that you have posted your saga on here, but in all honesty I am not 2 sure where you are in your dealings with the wayward wife.

Are you living at home? Are you in a Harley "plan", are you contemplating divorce? What?

I am just lost on it all and am 2 incredibly lazt to try 2 discern it from the posts. I am curious though. So, if you have a second and see this post, perhaps you could give me a cliff notes version 2 catch me up.

I ask this, becasue I was reading some old posts of Miss Priss, and saw that you 2 were posting way back then, and wanted to know where you are at now in this all.

Thanks.

Sour..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

bump

lm:

Gonna be hard 2 cliffnote this:

M'd 12-75
DD, 25, M'd 3-05
DS, 18

D-day 1-18 (or 19)-02

First A started about winter '91, when W and Rat Meat (11 yrs her jr) shared an office at grad school, after they'd been working 2gether for a while (a 2ple years?). Went in2 "remission" without me finding out sometime around '95, when Mrs Meat made them move 2 states away (sometimes I'm told she found out, sometimes not). First A allegedly mostly EA, very infrequently PA. RM was M'd and they had close contact with other friends at school but managed 2 keep the A secret, so far as I know.

2nd A started around spring 2000, when W hired RM 2 consult for a job she was PI on. EA, with lots of sexual inuendo emails, and PA 2 times in about 2 years.

W didn't "give up" RM upon discovery of A, just went underground. I variously did decent and lousy plan A stuff for the next several months, then got "in2" subjects mainly pooh pooed by MB, particularly "unconditional love", but other useful things from the MB viewpoint, like detachment and avoiding LBers. Mrs Meat had a revenge A about fall 2003, and the Meats are now DV'd (and probably sharing custody of their 2 teen sons). RM allegedly has a new GF, who's also allegedly "okay" with him and my W being "friends." [puke!]

Most useful experience for me was learning NOT 2 avoid conflict, which I only managed 2 truly achieve when I found in May that infrequent contact had never stopped.

After that event, we had some fruitful "discussions", my W "stuck 2 her guns" and I called a divorce mediator. When I told her I had, she insisted we have a meeting with him before she left for her OOSP a month ago, so we went. I didn't NC her while she was gone, and in fact spent a week there myself (with my son and his friend and her mom) last week. Over the 3 weeks we were apart, it became clear she missed me and doesn't want a DV, but it's still not clear whether she wants 2 do whatever it might take 2 save our M. Sometimes I think she would, but sometimes I feel like she'd just rather go back underground and hope that I'll not notice anymore. It's not even been a 2ple weeks of this "new W" role yet, so I'm not sure where it's headed. We're intimate, even having a little fun 2gether.

Anyway:
*I'm living at home. Have only taken a 2ple of "breaks" that weren't plan B's in the past 3.5 years, plus this time while she was at her OOSP with volunteer s2dents last month.
*She never left 2 be with OM, though he "expected" her 2 after his W threw him out and she helped him with a deposit on an apartment (she didn't tell me for a year).
*Not in any Harly plan, though I did talk 2 SH once. Counseled and coached with about 5 others over the past 3.5 years, though I'm taking a "break" for now. Will gladly resume if she decides she wants 2 MC 2gether at some point. I've offered 2 make an a appointment, but she's declined every time, so it's her 2rn.
*I am still contemplating DV. While she was gone for 3 weeks, I slept really well. I miss that, though it hasn't been bad the past 2ple weeks like it had been before. Still, something is missing, but some things I haven't experienced in a long time are back, 2.

-ol' 2long

I think Sour Guy must be working.

SS

Yeah. Work is good, though!

-ol' 2long

Yeah, been working the past two days nearly all day both days and into the night last night having had to take someone back to the OR at 1130 pm. We finshes the case at 430 am this morning and I had clinic all day. I must have drank a pot of coffee today. I am pretty much wrecked now, and "technically" am still on bepper back up call....uh, it is going to take an act of God to get me into that hospital beofre Friday....LOL. Oh well, that is why they pay me the big bucks ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> -yah right).

2long:

Your story is profoundly sad to me. I cannot even begin to identify what you went through, and how now you could even contemplate reconciliation with your WW given all of this $hit.

I am just "not built" that way I guess. Maybe my vows were just not as strong as yours or anyone elses here. It is stories like yours that "I just don't get". Maybe I never will.

I try as hard as I can to not judge you my friend. I can only hope you find TRUE happiness in this life, with or without your wayward.

Peace.

Sour..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

lm:

What's so different, if any of it matters, about LTAs like the one I was subjected 2, is the low-levelness of it all. Never the fast and furious "replacement" of the BS by the OP, just a subliminal, hard to pin down, dull ache in the relationship. The unaware BS knows something isn't quite right, but it's been that way for so long that they find themselves questioning their own sanity or maybe just assuming that this is the way that long term marriages get.

Then, of course, d-day comes along and everything changes in an instant. But, even then there's the remembrance of the "good times" before the crap existence began, years ago. And the "good news" is that the crap now has an explanation. And with that comes some hope that better times could come out of learning from the experience. Of course, also there's the greater "clinginess" intially, because of all the time the BS has invested in the relationship which, after all, was never so awful even during the affair.

Now, looking back on what I've been through, what I've learned from others, I still don't think I could have conducted myself much differently than I did. I think, with some degree of near certainty, that if my W had run off 2 live with RM 14 years ago - or even 3 years ago - that I would have been more strongly motivated 2 fix this M or end it pretty quickly. With that greater "flurry" of energy and activity, though, would have come the greater ampli2de rollercoaster ups and downs. I sometimes wonder if my formerly somewhat fragile self would have survived a post-d-day period like many here go through.

These days, I still don't know for certain what I'm going 2 do about the M - whether I'll stay in it or end it. I don't feel any urgency, though. I've got things I can occupy my mind with so I'm not worrying about whether I'll have an intimate relationship with my W or some other woman in2 my 90s or whenever. I won't be played the fool again, either, but I don't see any need 2 react negatively 2 the possibility of renewed contact in a punishing manner, either. That'll just be it for me.

My W said something little, but very warm this evening. It was about 9:30, and she was falling asleep while holding my hand and watching one of our shows on TV (about archaeology). She said "I'm sorry I'm so quiet and tired right now." I just replied "It *is* getting late, you know, and it was a long day. You should go right 2 sleep if you want 2." And she did.

No big deal. Kind of sweet. No crisis. I count myself as a little for2nate 2 have been the one with her when she fell asleep, instead of some fool 2 states away who's xW was similarly foolish and had a revenge affair after finding out about her H's A with my W.

I'm not going 2 "lose" this fight like RM, his xW, his alleged new naive (aka s2pid) GF, or his unwittingly victimized kids.

That is my intention, whatever my "relationship landscape" looks like a month, year, decade, or millenium from now.

-ol' 2long

OK 2long,

You’re repedalized.

I could not have said it better myself.

The low level of A for so long is what is so confusing and confounding. It’s like a chronic condition that aches a lot at times but is never life threatening.

There is a feeling something is wrong but then maybe all M’s are like this. You learn to live with it.

But the flip side is after D-Day the BS has almost no untainted memories of the M to fall back on. There is almost no solid ground anywhere to stand on. The BS has to draw on something else entirely to recover both personally and the relationship.

I sometimes think I see pattern in the LTAs showing up here on MB. The WS does love the BS. They never wanted to leave the M or lose the BS. Most, if not all, ENs were being met quite well by the BS in the marriage.

It is something in the WS. Something longstanding that was there before we married them. Most normal people could not live a double life for that long and stay sane.

Yet we love them anyway. Maybe even because of who they are.

Hi, Aphelion.

Quote:
===========================
Yet we love them anyway. Maybe even because of who they are.
===========================

I don't think it is a good idea to romanticize someone's lack of character. The inability to make a decision in life to chose one partner over another is not some noble gesture reserved only for those 'special' people that want to justify their poor choices at someone else's expense. It is a fundamental flaw. The only way to fix such a flaw is to directly address it and make a corresponding decision with accompanying action.

There is little difference between someone that can't stop drinking, or using crack or looking at kiddie-porn. All are addictions, all are flaws. What counts in life, is what you do about a flaw, not whether or not you have a major one.

All the best,
Gimble

I don't know, I don't see how loving someone, flaws and all is romanticizing anything.

A spouse who sits in front of the TV every night oblivious to his family around him, or who works 100 hours a week to escape his family seems not much different than one who has an affair(to escape true intimacy with their spouse) to me. And yet we accept those flaws in people and don't judge the spouse who is trying to get them back into the marriage again.

Take the moral aspects out of it and what is the difference?

Maybe I have just been on this board so long that I have become desensitized to affairs. But the word betrayal is becoming like a cancer to my soul.

Gimble you once said that when you were much younger you had serious character flaws, but you went through some stuff and re-united with you CLW (now married legally I believe). "Two very broken people deciding to make a life together", you said.

When you get some time would you post your story? I have personal reasons for wanting to hear it, but I think it might be good for all of us to be able to see how someone who was at one time a player goes through the changes to become the man you are today.

Thanks Gimble.

Sorry for the threadjack.

There is nothing logical about love. Love is the most illogical of all emotions, in fact it defies logic. And trying to apply logic to it is futile. Time and thoughts would be better spent simply accepting that it makes no sense. Love is an entity of it's own.

"But if in your fear you should seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,

Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,

Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears,

Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself,

Love possesses not, nor would it be possessed;

For love is sufficient unto love."

~Kahlil Gibran - The Prophet

Gimble...

very good point
very good post..

as usual though eh?

ARK^^

Weaver.....

This is the romanticising part....


You "love" someone because they exibit a flaw ... it is a love that requires the flaw remain intact!

In essence, you require the lover to remain in a lesser state of development in order to love him/her.

Let's say the flaw is "conflict avoidance" .... when the spouse overcomes conflict avoidance ... oops ---> there goes the love right out the window.

Do you see how loving another "because of who they are" if applied to a serious flaw can limit the flawed person's growth and development?

There are too many examples on this board to count.

Personally, I was attracted to my husband's flaw of alcoholism .... and when he went into recovery .... I was S.O.L. .... and felt abandoned in the marriage without his flaw that was hurting HIM! I had to fall in love with him for his better self and encourage him to overcome his flaw ... which was hard for me to admit ... but once I recognized MY role in him maintaining his flaw ... it became clearer.

PS .... Weaver

My flaws also attracted my husband to me because our flaws held hands!

But for either of us to grow healther ... we had to let go of connecting to each other via our character flaws.

LOL

Oh, okay. It completely eluded me that that is what Gimble was getting at.

Some flaws are such that if accepted as is, they prevent any possibility of growth for the marriage or individuals involved.

Your flaws wanted to hold hands. I love that!

But you are a prime example that two very troubled people can make a good marriage and life together, also that love is not really in our control. We love who we love, no explanation needed. It just is, unless until it isn't.

And I believe very much that commitment is a choice, however I don't see that much choice in love. I didn't ask to love him, I didn't make myself love him...and I can't make myself stop loving him. I can minimize him in my mind, and I can be happy. Those are choices. Love is not.

my opinion only

Unlike multi-faceted telescope 2bes, this IS important.

From Guy Pettit, on what is loving:

"· To call forth a sense of responsibility, and a capacity to make wise choices.

· To point out weaknesses people have, - but very caringly so that the best in the person is drawn forth in response, rather than resistance.

· To challenge people to strive and attain, and discover their true selves..

· To help people work on their habits and weaknesses so that they become stronger. To show them how to use their will correctly.

· To help people learn to cooperate, and thus to overcome their little egos."


I really don't think it's healthy 2 love someone because of their flaws, as Pep so eloquently illustrated. And I do believe that most of us who do that do so because we can't admit 2 ourselves (or our buddies on this board) that we're not just avoiding that particular conflict, we're relabling something very unhealthy so we don't have 2 acknowledge that there is a problem worthy of a good old fashioned conflict.

And weaver, it IS as insideous and damaging 2 an intimate relationship as the A is. It's just covert, whereas the A is overt (after d-day, at least).

-ol' 2long

Schnarch (Passionate Marriage) says nearly all of us are attracted to each other initially ~because~ our flaws hold hands (my terminology, not his) ... and that the crucible/crisis of the marriage occurs when one of the partners attempts to grow and move away from their character flaw ...

This is why ONE person CAN cause the relationship dynamic to change ... simply by changing his/her self ....

this is the integrity crisis most of us face when we are challenged to become better and our partner needs us NOT to become better because it forces them to change within the relationship too....

don't tell Sir Bob I am discussing Schnarch ~LOL~

In truth I was trying to say it more like Pep. I read Schnarch too. Poor choice of words on my part.

I do still love her. I don't think that is wrong.

But you all are definitly correct. I may not in the end be able to live with her.

Weaver, thanx for your thoughts. I noticed you deleted them before I had a chance to reply.

Just wanted to say I am also feeling weary here lately. I am running out of steam.

I find myself becoming less and less compassionate and understanding with WS and their justifications, whining and yes, even with their all-important missing ENs.

WS, FWS, RWS, whatever they want to call themselves, I find myself getting a headache every time I read the overwhelming sense of entitlement in almost every one of their posts. Even in many old timer FWS posts.

I get enough of that at home.

There is a recurrent theme on MB concerning a fear tentative WS may be driven away if they are not handled with kid gloves. I get a sense they cannot be told what they did was wrong or they might not come back. I get a sense they have to be justified before they will agree to repent. In fact, repent is a word almost never found in any FWS post. Neither is the word adultery, as if using that word is not PC around here.

It’s funny. I am feeling driven away from MB by WSs.

Sorry. I think I’m having a bad couple of days. Time to go home and work in the garden.

Aph,

My post to you was about loving your wife, and that it is okay to love someone who is troubled.

The key I think is to find happiness from within and then draw her into a world where truth and emotional healthiness abides. If that makes any sense.

Don't let bitterness and anger guide your decisions, let love guide them.

It is okay to love a woman who is flawed, it is not okay to let your happiness depend on her.

I know only part of your sitch, and that is probably enough because the important thing is in your words and what they convey.

I made a horible mistake in thinking that my relationship was not worthy, and that was reinforced here.

My relationship, my love and the family I had with my exSO and daughter were every bit as worthy as anyone elses.

And so is yours, do not make the mistake I did and let shame guide the decisions you make.

All people have a sense of entitlement. It is not inclusive of people who would have affairs.

It is the flipside of the same coin.

We are all in this life together.

I am not half as bright as the other people on this thread, but I do care and wish the best for you and your family.