{{{{fl}}}}

FL, before you go away...I am so happy to hear that you have found a personal relationship with God. Please seek out a church that you can be with God's family in. Fellowship is such a key to your Christian walk and being around other believers is uplifting. Maybe you can eventually get your H and children to attend with you. I would encourage you if you have not already to read Every Women's Battle .

Big hugs to you, you are really making progress. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

thanks bob <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

faith, i'm not sure about the church thing. part of me really longs to be in a community of faith, for exactly the reasons you state. it's just kinda hard right now. i do not feel comfortable in the church we belong for various reasons. and i am torn about that, i was not like a pillar of the church but i was rather involved and it always felt nice. unfortunately church going has been a struggle when it comes to my H. i don't really feel like going into the details. the sad thing is, we finally started going together and would even hold hands. it was just one of the many changes my H made for me as he was trying to win me back. this was before he knew i was cheating on him. he did these things because i became so adimant about getting divorced and he fought so hard to hang on to me Faith. it's just so crazy, he triumphed so remarkable only to end up having to have his heart broken as a result.

ok, i better stop before i get sad.

i will look up that book, i also want to look into Into Abba's Arms (i think that is what it is called, i have it written down at work). for now i'm on my own, well not really, God is with me. i guess that is why i like the radio station so much, that is my church for now. oh and before anyone tells me i can go on my own, i know this is true but here comes my "but" i work 5 days a week. sat and sunday are the only days i have to wake up with the family and i really like doing that. i typically make a big breakfast for everyone. the kids like it when i am home in the morning. i assume my H likes it too, actually i know he does, summer gets long for him with the kids not at school!!!

i wonder if any church around here has a weekday evening service, that could work. i know the cathoic church probably does but catholic does not work for me (long story, i was baptized cathoic, became methodist when i met my H). i'll look into that. i do still hate that my kids are not going. i try to at least talk about God with them occasionally.

i know i said i was leaving but i would like to hear any BH's thoughts on some of the questions i posed to aphelion. i know all that really matters is how my H would answer those questions, perhaps i will try to get us into a conversation. it's just really hard. but i guess that is no reason to avoid it, right?

oh and i found a humourous typo which i am going to fix...

our first child was born nov 1989. that would be after we were married for just over 3 years as oppsed to 2 months after our wedding!!! bit of a difference, wouldn't ya say!!

FL,

So sad you are leaving, just when I am getting to know you.

My pain actually is minimal compared to what you are going through. Mine is not really pain anymore..maybe serious sadness..off and on.

If you husband could only read your last two threads, specially the long one, it would open his eyes and help him realize your complete remorse and then your resolve for the future. YOU ARE STRONG in your resolve. God bless you for that.

Thank you for the hero stuff, but Geeze and I did what had to be done. I am glad I was in the position to take the 6 months away. I think it help Nate immensly. My job in CO was to work him, and take him to therapy and to be his buddy. (which is very easy)

But enough again about me...

As Nate would say..YOU ARE AWESOME!! Very awesome in your quest to be who you have turned into. I commend you on that!

God has blessed you and has come into your heart. Very hard to fail when you have that.

BE HAPPY, ITS ALL GOING TO BE OK!

k

FL, you never responded to my post. Why it made you sad enough to cry.

I wanted to tell you that happiness is achievable even WITH a core of sadness in the BS ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The BS' sadness is very real, but so is the happiness.

I have a happy life now. I manage my sadness. Your H needs to start managing his sadness too, but I truly believe that starts with forgiveness.

{{{fl}}}

""FL, you never responded to my post. Why it made you sad enough to cry.""

My Golly Gosh bOb, your post made ME tear up!

Just face it dude, you also are AWESOME! (I often wonder if I spell that right.)

Ever get to San Diego?

k

krusht, next time I do I'll ping you first.

"I'm not awesome, I'm a very naughty boy " <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LOL, that clears up a lot!

FL, our church has small groups on Wednesday night. Many Christian churches have bible study on Wednesday or Thursday eve. You also find a church that has Sunday evening services. Check around, I think you will find something to fit your schedule. Fellowship is important and I know you know that. I do think once you get back into a church finding an accountability partner will show your H even more how serious you are about the changes in you.

God's blessings in your continued journey.

morning Faith <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

those are very good suggestions!! thanks. i hope what you say is true even during the summer. i will look into it.

Bob - part of why i cried was probably due to the way i was feeling overall on that day. but part of why i cried is because you did such a good job articulating your sadness and in your first response you did not also include the flip side of your life. in you later posts you did that and that helped me understand. but Bob, that first post was sad!!! maybe this exchange was meant to help you see that maybe you can do some praying to take away your sadness? it does certainly seem from all your other posts (and i have been reading, like the thread about the sorry squid finally gave you) that you are more happy than sad. that is why i was so surprised when i read your post. especially since i was looking for encouragement to hang on to hope. i didn't mind your post, not at all, i don't want to give you that impression. i am, however, glad JL followed you so closely with his post!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> so does that suficiantly answer your question about why i cried?

care to answer my question i posed to aphelion? i know i should not be focusing on that again but now that i have posed the questions, i am rather curious to find out others thoughts? maybe the point is none of you are supposed to answer and i am supposed to, on my own, let it go and stay focused on the present.

His name is I AM (not I was, not I am going to be) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> right?

krusht - i stopped posting for 2 reasons.

1. i didn't like having any "second" or "secret" life and i was posting so much and i was feeling so connected to the people here that is exactly what it was feeling like. i cannot force my H to join me here, i cannot force him to want to hear about the people here (i did try a bit, but only a little cuz i'm not about to try to force him into anything. at this point in our life, he should not have to be forced into anything!!)

2. my H is very concerned about any friendships that could develop here that could become inappropriate. your comment krusht about you are sorry to see me leave because you were just starting to know me is EXACTLY what would so totally freak him out. and i completely understand his position. it does saddens me some because i wish he could feel secure in knowing there is NO way i will ever have an inappropriate friendship again. just like i have the luxury of knowing there is no information he does not know yet, i have the luxury of that security (and yes, i do know that i need to ALWAYS keep up very tight boundaries for myself and stay very diligent about it) but he does not and the sad thing is, there isn't anything i can really do about it.

bob - your post illustrates that second point so dramatically. another reason i felt so sad when i read it. sad for you.

ok, time for work all and after work...

HARRY POTTER!!!! wooo hoooo. the kids and i are pumped up, we will be going to various harry potter events in the area until midnight, and then.... i will be losing my daughter until she reads it (i think she is planning on reading it twice!!) at that point my son will get the book and then..... i will get to read it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ok, don't tell the kids, i'm not really that excited about Harry Potter. i'm just excited that they are so excited. so i join them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> that is what is exciting to me, to be able to join them, cuz at age 15 (very close to 16) i am very blessed that she still likes me enough to want me around <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and for my 11 yr old son, any bonding we can do is good. my kids are AWESOME.

Hey FL.

I hoped to offer you a potential reason for your H's distance, not bring you down. Even rereading it It doesn;t look sad to me - just eal. Thats how my life IS FL. I mostly report the gread advances and good stuff, but that doesn;t mean there aren't problems.

Squid has transformed herself as a person, and a wife and has kept NC since September last year, but would be happiest if I never mentioned her A ever again.

Knowing her as I do I cannot forsee her ever choosing to deconstruct her affair in order to learn from it fully, once I stop confronting her with it.

Also, even if that did happen - the assertion that real benefits occur as a result of the affair - to me such is like losing weight after cancer.

Yes,you can look and feel great when recovered from cancer, but there is always a fear and a hurt and a 'why me?' victimised feeling.

An affair is a deliberate, knowing cancer inflicted upon us by the person we trust most in the world for their own pleasure.

I simply do not see how that will ever not be a part of our relationship. no amount of talk, or reading , or regret, or meeting ENs can ever mitigate that.

Thats why I have a sad part of me, always.

We have a great day-to-day marriage now. Squid is loving, works to learn and meet my emotional needs, we intimate more than in years, our sex life is transformed since before the affair and almost back to the best ever now, and I even got my heartfelt apology.

I do not see how we could be doing better in recovery but are STILL in recovery.

The lesions of the infidelity disease left roots that even when cut out leave deep scars.

When I have sad days now I tell Squid and it DEVASTATES her. She tries to make me happy and feel secure , she holds me, ILY's me, assures me but also involuntarily withdraws to a dark self-loathing place that makes her personal healing progress paralysed until I shake off my sadness and can coax her out into the sunshine again.

I am mostly happy ! Life is good ! I am not complaining !

But it is important that I do not delude myself or others.

The very heart of me died. There is a dead core in me now like a rotton apple. And I look forward to a life where I will ever accommodate this not heal it.

And THAT is what makes me sad.

I have forgiven Squid. But there are actual physical consequences to her actions that forgiveness does not remove.

She became one with OM through her sex with him. There are 3 of us 'cleaved unto each other' now, until one of us dies. I hate that because I sense it.

I try not to dwell on the collateral damage consequences of her afair because they are factual and unchangeable, but that does not remove them.

So. Thats me. My happiness is genuine but feels shallow : like lillies floating on a cess pit.

We have come far, but still have far to go.

And finally I REALLY REALLY resent that Squid made it necessary for me to do all this. I [censored] HATE it.

My point is FL, that maybe " great , considering.." is the best any of us BS can ever hope for in recovery.

All blessings.

FL,
I read through your post and urge you to read the book "Passionate Marriage by Schnarch. Pep suggested it some time ago on another thread and I read it-it has changed my life more than anything else I have read.
To have a wonderful marriage, first you have to stand on your own-he calls it holding on to youself.

"Maintain a clear sense of who you are as you become increasingly important to a partner who is increasingly important to you-know what you value and believe, don't defend an innacurate self-picture.

Maintain a sense of perspective about your anxieties, limitations, and shortcomings so they neither drive nor immobilize you.

be willing to engage in self-confrontation necessary for your growth. standing up for your fears, taking the hits about your family of origin, your marriage and your life, confronting your own selfishness, hatred, manipulation of others, sadism, with-holding, and self-denigration-resist your attempts to avoid yourself.

Admit when you are wrong-whether your partner does or not.

Tolerate the pain involved in growing, sooth your own hurts
when necessary, without excessive self indulgence, support rather than berate yourself."

When you can do this-and it ain't easy- you pull out of bad situations and keep things positive. You don't mirror your partners feelings-and make them your own. Here is a very basic example. Last week my husband was critical about a meal I made. The old me would have either said (or thought) I worked hard on that,eat it anyway, i can't do anything right, screw you....I would have allowed his feeling to impact me and then I would have sent it back to him. But now when things like that happen-I take a minute to sooth myself, and tell him I'm sorry if he doesn't like it, and I give him options for other things to eat. (he can make himself) I did my best,I don't have to be perfect, and its his problem he doesn't like it-not mine. I'm doing this with everything-big things that really used to hurt if I didn't get the appropriate response. That negative self talk-whats wrong w/ me, what if he doesn't love me, etc...all gone. I don't hold anything back from him-I give him my best, and I give him all of me-and if he doesn't take it or appreciate it- not my problem. As long as you give your best you have nothing to be guilty about, or ashamed of. But so often we throw out only a portion of the love and compassion we can give-reserving something in case we are rejected. You are the one leading your recovery-you will have to give him everything you have, whether he takes it, ignores it, rejects it-doesn't matter. Show all your feelings and thoughts completely, everything you have, and don't worry about how he is taking it. He could really be feeling your love now, but afraid to admit it, or hiding it to try and hurt you back. Until he is ready to "hold on to himself" too, his response to you might be just a way of messing w/your mind. Don't become hopeless and depressed if he is-stay positive and pull him to your level.


The other part of the book that made perfect sense to me was the chapter on two-choice dilemmas. Situations where neither choice you have is perfect, so you don't make any. Not happily married, but not willing to divorce. In the book he talks about a couple having a problem w/SF. Wife never wants it, huband always does. Schnarch tells her its perfectly fine she has a low sex drive, and that she has nothing wrong w/ her. But she has to be honest w/ herself- and get out of her two-choice dilemma. Does she want to icrease her desire to match more closely her partners, or will she tell him honestly she is happy w/ SF a few times a year and not willing to change. If she chooses not to change, then he he has to choose if he will stay in the marriage or divorce to find a more compatible sex partner. The couple in the book is gridlocked-she wants him to accept her as she is, he wants the same thing, but they are both miserable, neither getting what they really want. They are losing their integrity by not standing up for themselves. Scnarch tells the woman she needs to stop trying to control her husband by asking him to put her needs first while ignoring his sexual desires-she needs to make her decision and let him make his. She has anxieties about SF, but she also has anxieties about being divorced, so she demands he stay married but doesn't have any intention of keeping him happy. She doesn't choose, and by not choosing starts to hate herself and pushes all the negative stuff off to him. They work it out when she takes steps to uncover her problem-which really isn't sexual. But the message I got was don't make yourself miserable ignoring your problem, and trying to make it look like something it isn't.

Push through your insecurities and fears, make your choices, and lay them on the table for your partner to make his. Those steps take you up the ladder to a wonderful relationship.

I know I was wordy-and the book explains it so much better than I can. It took me a couple of times through it before I really understood it, but it has helped me revover my marriage in a way I never thought possible.

Good luck.

FL,

"your comment krusht about you are sorry to see me leave because you were just starting to know me is EXACTLY what would so totally freak him out."

You know, when I wrote that I kind of winced, but left it there. I also totally understand. No forwardness intended.

Geeze does not like that I come here. She said "YOU WILL FIND SOMEONE ELSE!" NOT EVEN!

k

starting again, thank you very much for typing that all out!!! i looked up the book on amazon, i have heard about it before too, including via pep. i will read it. good luck to you too.

bob - what more can i say. i am going to continue to hang on to the thought that althought perhaps the scars will never totally go away, they will fade enough such that you will no longer write things like this:

and this:

i am saying this for YOUR sake Bob. in the same way i want my H to understand it. not for Squids sake or my sake, so we don't have to forever look at the pain because that is NOT my motivation, but for YOUR sake and for my BH's sake.

With God all things are possible i see no reason why that stmt cannot include taking away your pain and reviving your "dead core".

i think if RIF were here he would have some words to say to you too. i really think highly of you bob and i care. you and squid are examples of those that get mentioned by name in my prayers (ok, but not everyday, i am trying hard but i still struggle with daily prayer, like last night, i just could not come up with words, i said the Lord's prayer but even thru that, i could not keep my mind quite and focused on the prayer). back to the point.... when i pray for you and squid in the future... part of that prayer will now be for God to help guide you to revive that core of yours. i hope you consider praying for that same thing for yourself Bob!!!

krusht - no worries!!! i hope you and geeze continue to grow closer. i am very happy to hear your son recovered successfully.

FL

I am sorry. My message was not what you needed at this time. I am usually more encouraging. I should learn to play guitar more and post less when I see a half empty glass , not a half full one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Many long term recovereds have told me today that a year-ish is a hard time in recovery and that a time can some where affairs hold no control over happiness or sadness in a recovered marriage.

You should soncentrate on THAT message - that all we go though is transient, and great recovery is possible ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I really am sorry that I reminded you of what you already knew but did not need to see written so graphically - that affairs really hurt BS. It was unusually insensitive of me.

All blessings

bob, your posts have been absoultely FINE!!!! please stop worrying about the fact that i first cried. do you think i should start saying to you "i'm sorry i told you i cried"?

the answer is NO. i did cry, that is a fact. you wrote from the heart, that is exactly the right thing to do. though it is true, i was looking more for encouragement, everything that bring insight is GOOD.

STOP APOLOGIZING!!! got it??

the following quote is useful to me...
(even though the second half of the sentence is not constructed quite right!!! i think i know what you were saying... you were told today that there can indeed come a time when affairs hold no control over happiness or sadness in a recovered marriage. right?)

just like knowing that 6 months is a "normal" time for extra anger to be felt by a BS. if 1yr is a "normal" time for extra sadness, knowing this can help me prepare myself for it. it is very tough being a FWS, trying to maintain forgiveness towards herself while having to see the pain of the BS. i, like squid, react badly sometimes when my H does show his pain, i can end up withdrawaling into self-loathing too. but that does not help the BS cuz now they are left feeling like they have to hide their feelings and that is not good for a healthy marriage. know what i mean.

in the same way, that is why i want you to stop apologizing for your initial post!! if you had not, then this discussion would not have happened and the growth both of us can achieve from the discussion could not happen.

speaking of which... you did not really comment on my suggestion to you about praying for God to lighten your sadness and revive your "dead core". i hope you are at least internally thinking about it, for if you cannot see the possiblity, how can God help achieve it with you?

bumping up for Bob, i wanted to make sure you saw my response to you.

Hi FL !

I saw your reply thanks !

speaking of which... you did not really comment on my suggestion to you about praying for God to lighten your sadness and revive your "dead core". i hope you are at least internally thinking about it, for if you cannot see the possiblity, how can God help achieve it with you?

Our God can do anything, but usually does not bend his own laws of consequence or physical reality.

Squids affair DID build a 'cleaved threesome' into our marriage. I am bonded to that filth until death in a tangible way according to scripture. It is awful but is a consequence of Squids affair and one reason why God warns us against adultery , rules against it in the ten commandments and give us unique permission to divorce as a result of it.

I guess when I chose NOT to divorce Squid I signed up to living with my broken core.

God can and is improving my life around my centre, AND He is lifting my sadness in so many ways, but I do not expect Him to unmake a consequence of the wanton breaking of his rules.

Squid will need to live for ever with the knowledge that she broke a good man's heart.

I will need to live WITH the tangible manifestations of her infidelity. Such is the consequence of adultery and the decision of a BS not to divorce.

My posts seem to have concentrated too much on what is sad and broken in me. Life is better now than I could ever imagined it to ever be again just a few months ago.

My woman adores me, and I her. We have a great day-to-day life and a solid recovery moving forward at the pace God needs it to. My spiritual life has been reawakened as not in years.

But my point was EVEN ME with all these blessings is still mortally wounded.

I pray your H will find it in his heart to forgive you so that God can carry his burden, and not him alone. You can then both be released to reap the blessings God saves for recovering couples of good faith.

ok. thanks for the response. i'm not sure i understand. maybe i just don't agree.

maybe i dont want to understand or agree because i don't like it. of course, liking or not liking something has nothing to do with truth.

i just don't know. best thing for me to do is accept that i don't really know and let it go. i've been spending too much energy worrying again and that is not productive.

thanks again to all that posted to me last week.

till next time, i'll be reading and praying for you all!!

FL, help me be clearer, please.

My point is that one reason God tells us NOT to do certain things is because the consequences are so bad. God CAN do anything He wishes,but rarely if ever changes his own laws.

God CAN but WON'T undo teh damage of an affair. He gave me a startling love for Squid, restored her appreciation of me, gave me THIS place and a great faith to do what HE knew was best for me and Squid.

But he won;t 'unmake' Squids affair nor its fallout.

My 'dead core' is a consequence of that. God may help me live around it, or replace the dead part with new better live parts, but the old has gone and the damage is a reality for ever.

Like I said its as though my first love was raped and killed by Squid and OM in a motel a year ago. I still grieve it. I have found a new love, more mature and sustainable than my first love and I am largely happy, but the specialness of our first love is gone forever. We're just like everyone else now, with baggage from other relationships.

Maybe its different when folk had relationships before marriage, but I lost a BIG thing. A Special thing.

And God much as I pray will not 'undo' that consequence of infidelity.

ALl blessings FL. Really.

(((bob)))

“Squids affair DID build a 'cleaved threesome' into our marriage. I am bonded to that filth until death in a tangible way according to scripture.”

“I guess when I chose NOT to divorce Squid I signed up to living with my broken core.”

I agree that there are earthly consequences we pay for sinning, but have you ever talked to a pastor about these thoughts? A theologian might be able to offer scriptures to comfort you.

If God can and will forgive and restore your wife to Himself, and restore your M, surely He can and will restore you to a full life where you don’t have to resign yourself to feeling like your core is permanently broken.

I’m not trying to argue with you, it’s just that I really believe you, your W, and your M can be restored and healed from the past. I’ve seen (and felt!) God do some amazingly powerful, healing things in my H’s and my lives since my A.

God bless,

Rose