Rose

I bounced it off FH, who helped greatly and through my concordance. I won't tell our pastor yet.

I agree God can and does do amazing things in peoples lives, mine included but He doesn't usually undo the consequences of sin that he warns us about.
I have faith that we'll get to a great place one day. But we will never be as special as we were. We may do better then before but I will ever grieve the specialness of my first love.

"I will ever grieve the specialness of my first love."

Of course you will. Hopefully, like with other losses, the pain won't always be on the surface, or even just under the surface, but at a more bearable place in your memory. Hopefully that will hold true for all of us who have gone through, and are still going through, this mess.

One thing I can think of that relates to grief is that my grandfather died 30 years ago, and I sometimes still cry when I talk or think about him. I miss him, but I no longer feel the terrible grief and torment that I did in the first year or so. Every year got a little easier.

Press on! God bless,

Rose

ughhhhh.

bob - i'm not a person with a great knowledge of the bible. however, where does it say in the bible that if a person is betrayed they will suffer a 'dead core'??? same goes for the part about 'cleaved threesome'?

i started with "ughhhh" cuz i am wondering if i even want to be enlightened on this stuff.

and why exactly can't you, with all you have now ("He gave me a startling love for Squid, restored her appreciation of me, gave me THIS place and a great faith to do what HE knew was best for me and Squid.") conclude what you have now is more special? isn't that a perspective you can choose to have?

FL

A man and a woman have sex and they become one flesh. A woman has sex with more than one man Gods physical law is still effected. In OT times when polygamy was accepted by God a man could have a 'one flesh' union with his wives.

Cor 6.16 makes very clear that even extramarital sex leads to the 'one flesh' state.

God would have to undo the fabric of His universal laws for me in order to change that.

I have studied in hope of finding a different interpretation of this but there is none.

God may ( praise Him!) grant me many wonderful blessings in recovery but Squid will still have formed a "one flesh" union with OM and taken me with her against my will. It is an unchangeable law of God's good universe and one reason he warns against adultery and promiscuity.

FL how can what I have NOW ever be more special than a singular and unique exclusive Godly cleaving that Squid and I had before her affair ?

We only knew each other sexually until she gave herself that that dirty old wastrel. She also gave MY purity to that dirty old wastrel. She ate from the tree of good an evil and forced me to take a bite too.

We are just like other worldly marriages now FL. With sexual/spiritual and relationship baggage to carry. Only worse because not one shred of memory it gives me the tiniest pleasure. ( had I been with another woman before Squid I might recall some of that R with affection, but this was involuntary pollution).

There is no scripture that says I must have a 'dead core' Such is my verbalization of how I feel. Where there was a coruscating, lifted, sparkling centre to me, now is a serious, gray dull, practical joyless thing. It feels dead.

I pray that in time God will restore my core to full function, but i knwo it will be a different core if so. My old one is dead.

FL maybe you need to look at long term successful recovered like Pep, mel, Twyla, Nerlycrazy not yearlings like me.

I'm doing great for a year I guess but a struggling , kind hearted FWS shouldn't have to read my dark verbalisations of my pain.

Oddly I can't tell Squid this. She is already consumed with self loathing. I worry what she would do if I exposed my deep self to her.

All blessings FL.

* Rose, I lost my dear Mom and Dad. Dad in '92 and Mom in '99. their loss affected me dreadfully BUT they died without anything left unsaid between us and both died with hope of resurrection. As my Dad said to me on his deathbed " don;t cry Son, its supposed to happen this way".

I grieve both of my dear parents and I miss them, but with a lightness knowing they lived well, died saved and fearless wrapped in love.

Squids affair raped and killed my innocence and our marital specialness, trust and purity all for a whim of hers. There was deliberation in it. I was not a victim of my folk's GOOD deaths but I WAS a victim of Squids utter selfishness.

SO my grief is different for my pre-A marriage. It is a dirty grief. And infected grief.

I pray God will sort out the mess. I can't.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

bob, i found the verse you mentioned on an internet site and it had other verses too. In particular, in Mark 10:

7"(G)FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER[a],

8(H)AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.

9"What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."


do you think this passage is talking about sex or marriage?

i think the latter. when two people make vows to each other and God, that is when God joins them together. right?

Its talking about sex.

There are loadsof expositions of 'one flesh, the one in Cor 6 is the clearest :

Cor 6:16 "Or know you not that he who is joined to a harlot is made one body? For they shall be, saith he, two in one flesh."

Marriage legitimises the on eflesh union before God.

A one fesh union with a 'harlot' (or anyone outside marriage) is not legitimised But STILL fact.

Sex makes one flesh, marriage legitimises it before God. I believe scripture is clear. I will dig out FHs comprehensive thread on this and post it up for you. I wish there was a get out. But there isn't.

when i read from the start of the chapter, i do not conclude the same thing as you.

in the passages that i have found about "the two shall become one flesh" i don't see how just having sex with a person results in the one flesh.

now i am glad i decided to try to continue this discussion with you. it's always good to delve into the bible.

i'm not really sure what to conclude. but so far i am not seeing evidence that having sex with a person is the same as making vows in God's presence.

See here for Forever Hers' concordance.

i seriously don't see how what you are saying is right.

if what you say is right, two people are married in God's eyes as soon as they have sex. and that is just not the case!!! marriage is way more than sex. and a marriage commitment, the saying of vows to each other in God's house is way more the sex!!!

i think what you are saying is an insult to the word marriage. what am i missing?

well, i read the post you referred to. i'm not sure if i am taking this line out of content or not, but what do you conclude when you read this (from FH):


i hear him saying, sex alone does not make two people one flesh.

FL. I am not looking for scripture that makes me feel worse. Read FHs response when ATrueheart asked the same question you did:



atruheart - First off let me agree with you that what we are talking about here is NOT the same sort of "one flesh" that is God's intention for marriage. However, having said that, "one flesh" is directly tied to the physical act of marriage, i.e. sex, between a man and a woman. Those who have united with anyone other than their spouse, prior to/during/or after marriage, have created a "one flesh" union with the person or persons that they had sex with. That is part of what Jesus was talking about with the woman when he told her that, though she had never married, she HAD several husbands, including the man she was presently living with while unmarried ("one flesh" unions that were to be restricted to a covenantal marriage).

To be more specific, let's look at 1Cor.6:13b-18 (NIV):

The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins agains his own body.

atruheart - Your husband IS forgiven and the sin IS wiped away in Christ. Yet, God's laws (and consequences of violating them) don't just "go away" while we are here on earth and subject to the physical and spiritual laws. We have a God-given memory and, though forgiven, we still remember the sin because we do not have God's ability to put the sin so far away in our minds that it is "as if" it never happened.

That is partly why forgiveness, as God has forgiven us, is so vital and important. The sin IS forgiven, but we may still have to live with the mortal consequences of the sin. It could be an OC, a sexually transmitted disease, memories that we struggle with, guilt that assails us as Satan tries to lie to us that our sins are "so bad" that God could not forgive us, guilt over the pain and suffering that we have caused our spouse, struggles both spouses have with the realization that NONE of us is "sinfree" and holy yet.

The point in all of this is that God's commands are NOT designed to confine and imprison us. Rather, they are designed to keep us from harm and to show us the path to healing when we, in our pride and stubbornness and arrogance, choose to disobey God. That's what repentance is all about. Recongnizing sin for what it is and choosing to obey God from this moment forward. Until we die, no sin (other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) is unforgiveable. We have until we die to surrender our lives to Christ. We have confession, repentance, and forgiveness throughout our lives BECAUSE none of us IS perfect and sin and temptation are powerful forces in our lives.

I hope that helps a little with the confusion.

God bless.

'One flesh' occurs as a result of Sex. When this happens outside marriage it is illegitimate and sinful before God. Marriage legitimises it between a husband and wife.

There is no scripture to support the assertion that anything other than the death of either party disunites the 'one flesh' condition.

i think what you are saying is an insult to the word marriage. what am i missing?

I think that sex partners unite mysteriously to become 'one flesh' and that is God's law, and while its hard for me to take in, I do not think it is insulting.

Extramarital sex is the real insult to the word 'marriage' IMO.

All blessings. This stuff is hard and makes me sad, but needs to be worked out.

i'll have to ponder this for a while now Bob. thanks.

Its hard stuff FL.

very. and for the record... "Extramarital sex is the real insult to the word 'marriage'" i agree <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Not to interupt...but this got me thinking. I am in no way a Bible scholar but that is most likely the interpretation intended. But in my own simplistic way, I always looked at my children as the representation of the one flesh created by the union of myself and my FWW.

FL & bOb,

In my Sunday school classes decades ago I was taught a man and a woman when married with God's blessing become one flesh!

In wedding ceremonies this verse is read.

bOb your dead core...is it getting easier or more difficult. Your posts lately seem to be like the ones from prior to the "I'M SORRY". Are you going through a blue period?

k

not interrupting at all. which interpretaion were you referring to??? just wondering.

Sorry....the interpretation of One flesh being the physical union(sex) between Man and wife. My only thought was that in the old days that union would often directly lead to children thus manifesting the One Flesh as the children. But that is only my opinion. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

""in the old days that union would often directly lead to children thus manifesting the One Flesh as the children.""

Sounds good to me!
k

Bob - In my earlier post, I was just thinking about the nature of grief. Humans seem to be built to be able to recover from it. I didn’t mean to compare types of loss or question your pain, sorry if it seemed that way.

All - I’m too tired to discuss scriptures right now (maybe some other time), but I hope everyone prays and studies the Bible for himself and herself and finds peace.

God bless,

Rose