Krusht, yes I'm blue. Its just a down curve on the recovery rollercoaster. I'll live. Fun fun fun huh ?

Rose, I have always recovered from grief. Humans are resilient ! God is a Wonderful Counsellor !

But recovering from grief IME almost always leaves us changed, and not for the better.

Rereading this it looks like I am beating up on my FWS friends, I'm really not.

When I display hurt or troubles I can FEEL a hundred hopeful BS and a few FWS sighing in disappointment. Oh no! Even Bob is struggling !

When you consider where we were a few months ago - how vicious, spiteful and deeply entangled Squid was, our recovery has been truly miraculous.

That recovery has not been the fastest, but it has been very sure in part because I have not denied or overlooked any part of my feelings about it.

Despite all the blessings of my recovery ( and I have posted that for the first time in a year I feel blessed by our recovery more than cursed by Squids affair!)there are actual consequcnes of her affair that will not go away.

My expression of my deep, seemingly perpetual dysfunction at my heart may upset my 'fan club' but its REAL and TRUE and for me to represent differently is not doing a servce to other posters or myself.

We are doing GREAT for a year recovered !!

Its just too too early for me to say 'I am recovered'. God will help me live around the conseuqnces of Squids sin to achieve true joy once more. I know this. That is perhaps more important a message to convey than this present darkness.

* ILF, read Foreverher's concordance , which s borne out by my own Strong's concordance and MANY resources on the 'net.

Sex WAS marriage in early times. A flesh union manifested with such. That still happens, God SAYS so clearly in scripture, and only those unions legitimised by marriage are not sinful before Him.

Male & Female union is an allegory of the bond between Jesus and His Church "the Bride of Christ". It is not a part of scripture to be loosely interpreted for personal comfort.

I wish it was !!!!! I would LOVE to know there was no union between Squid and that reptile, but ther IS and I have to deal with it, just as I have to learn to live around my broken heart.

I am doing a good job mostly! But around now is d-day anniversary and life isn;t much fun right now.


All blessings.

FL

I was just on a prayer walk with my Dog and God told me that while I had told you the truth, I was telling YOU things that I should be telling Squid.

Sorry FL.

All blessings

bob, i do agree with you, you should always talk to squid about everything!!

at the same time, there is nothing wrong with working out feelings and thoughts here too.

re-reading all this - i do not at all see where it looks like you are beating up anyone!!

what i do see is you worrying about everyone else's responses to your feelings but keep in mind, each person's response is THEIRS to own.

yes i did sigh heavily and was sad (you used the word disappointed, that word to me, sounds like i am unhappy with you, i was not, but yes, i was sad for you) to hear that even bob has such deep struggles and sadness in him.

please don't take that to mean you are wrong. like you said, what you are sharing is your reality. (again that is why you should talk to squid about all this, even if it hurts her too).

EXACTLY!! see, we are saying the same thing. i, for one, would not want you to do anything else!!!

i could not agree more!!!

now since we have that straight, we can continue with the discussion at hand...

all i want to say is, i disagree with the part of the stmt "will not go away". and from other things you post, i know you disagree with that too...

i certainly was not looking for you to say you are recovered for my sake. In His time, not ours.

i did speak to a girlfriend who, i believe, is very spiritually strong. i personally have no concerns over there being some "one flesh" bond remaining between myself and anyone other than my H. i am fully at peace with that. you may think i must be consciously or uncounsciously wishing it to be true, but i really don't think that is the case. if so, God would be nudging me as i sat queitly asking him for guidance on the subject. instead all i keep hearing is. With God all things are possible.

in other words (and i know we agree on this) all sex outside of marriage is sinful. and my point is, God has shown us how to have our sins wiped away. for God, the sins are wiped away so completely they are completely forgotten. for us humans, it does take time and willingness to allow God to heal us. the point is, ALL OF IT can be someday gone. that is my only point to you (and this is for your sake not mine). to nudge you to open up yourself to the promise of God. All things can be made new and clean.

in conclusion although there is no denying, a physical union occured, however, i respectfully disagree that one remains. your broken heart remains, this is true. and i have no doubt God will help you truiumph over the pain you have endured.

all i wanted to say to you is, as best you can, don't get in God's way. to me words (and thougths) are very powerful so to hear you saying (thinking), some of what you were expressing about how your dead core will forever remain, prompted me to say to you. God can heal anything.

this is something i know you know already. my hope is that maybe my words can help you right now, especially at the d-day anniversary. maybe my words can be used by God to comfort you right now.

God's peace be with you Bob.

p.s. DON"T EVER SAY SORRY TO ME AGAIN!!!!! ugh. what part of that msg is hard to understand!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> you have said nor done nothing that warrents an apology!!!!

FL

If I kill a man, he is dead and I am guilty of Sin.

If I repent Christ's Grace forgives me and I am released to live a life of forgiven joy in God.

But my victim is still dead.

One flesh is made and sustains until death in every new sexual union. it is mysterious but factual that this happens.

God ( I pray) will forgive Squid and me and bind us close together, and lighten our sadness but like the dead person remaining dead, despite forgiveness and repentence the flesh union will remain until Squids or OMs death.

I hate it but thats what it says FL.

I'd love to see a credible concordance thats say otherwise but I have read many and not one has.

incidentally FL, the reason I am loth to burden Squid is because her Mom is close to death. She has lived miraculously past several medical predictions of death, but now is skin over bone. Her time will come soon.

My R discussions can wait a few months until this situation is resolved.
I did tell her this morning how hurt I was at this anniversary time, and that I wanted her close and strong to help me through it. Squid just drops into a pit of shame and self hatred when I say such stuff though.

She has to get stronger than this for both our sakes. I pray she does.

bOb,

""Squid just drops into a pit of shame and self hatred when I say such stuff though.""

What else were you expecting from her?? Everytime you bring it up, do you expect Squid to be encouraged and uplifted to carry on to the higher level of rebuilding your lives and marriage?

Seem like it would have the opposite effect.

k

bOb,

""One flesh is made and sustains until death in every new sexual union. it is mysterious but factual that this happens.""

Could you give us the chapter and verse of this again?

Thanks,

k

So I should never mention how I am feeling or ask any questions about Squids affair because it hurts her ?

OF COURSE its uncomfortable to her, and its not liek I am constantly perstering her.

But now after a year of investment from me I think I can expect that she doesn't shirk talking with me about our recovery.

Tears can be conflict avoidance.

I am no monster. I love Squid but she has to be stiffer than this K. I am close to the end of my tether right now. I'm pretty sick of pulling teeth just to get MY hurt dealt with.

Flip back to the link to foreverhers post and see his far more erudite description of 'one flesh' andits consequences.

if i could venture a guess. he expects squid to be strong enough to allow him to share his pain with her.

i am sure we would all agree, a spouse needs to be able to share their feelings. i do believe that includes negative feelings about the A. and just like in every other case, by sharing and by recieving comfort and understanding, the intensity of the feeling is diminished.

we woman have known this truth from the beginning of time!!! that is why we talk to each other so much unlike you men that like to crawl into a cave.

on the flip side, i have a better understanding that sometimes my H crawling into a cave is ok. and at those times being able to patiently wait for his return.

early on i was doing exactly what squid was doing, it is a natural knee jerk reaction. but it was very counter-productive for my H. because that only results in him feeling like he should not have shared. and that is NOT the msg i want to be giving him. so i try hard not to do that now.

and with so many things.... i am now wondering.... if my H were here, would he be saying what Bob is saying or would in fact he be reporting that he does feel safe to express his hurt.

there is so much for he and I to be talking about!!!! i really have to find a way to get us talking more.

bob, if i could offer you a suggestion.... maybe you have already tried this, maybe not. let squid know ahead of time that you need to express some feelings AND tell her exactly what you need from her. tell her you need her to be able to listen without tears. tell her, you know it would be hard but that is what would help you.

and now a question to you. what are you wanting to express, anger or sadness or? second question, what would be the ideal response from her? don't tell me what you do not want her to do, play it out in your head the way you want it to occur. maybe, if it is sadness that you are needing to express, you want to be able to be held in her arms and possible shed some of your own tears? the point is, do you have a clearly defined image of how you want her to respond.

if so, share it with her!!!!

it is EXTREMELY hard to not want to fall into one's own feelings. a technique i would suggest to her is to imagine that the sad feelings has absolutely nothing to do with her. tell her to disconnect herself from the equation just in order for her to be able to have empathy as she would if the reason you were sad was about something else that someone else did to you.

what do you think?

i know this time is hard for you right now, you have been strong for a long time, and that time is being stretched out because of her mom.

so one last suggestion to you... when you start to feel like you are getting to the end of your tether, don't forget to pat yourself on the back and feel extra-ordinarly proud of yourself for all you have done.

although we do want our spouses to be there for us. i have learned that being able to be there for myself is, truthfully, even better. because what is really happening is that i am allowing God to be there for me. never in a million years did i ever think i would have that attitude, let alone even understand the concept!!!

don't get me wrong, that is not to say i am not fully invested in my H, i am. in fact i am capable of being so much more invested in him now that before because i am not having to worry about me so much.

does that make any sense?

FL, you are wise and one day your H will realise how you bless him.

I told Squid gently this morning that I needed her to be strong , loving and close to me as I sail through this anniversary month.

She said nothing then.

This afternoon she burst into floods of tears and I held her.

I asked whey she was crying, as I held her.

She replied " because you are lovely and I hurt you so badly and I can;t help it. It makes me feel like I am crap for doing that to you. I don't deserve you"

And right away then I have to support HER.

She's been so TOUGH all out life too. Fiery. Now shes broken.

bob, does squid every read here? is she in any counsoling?

besides the benefit you would recieve by her strength and support, she would recieve a great benefit too. and that is more pride in herself. that is what i have gained and continue to gain (somedays i have a much harder time) but as i have had small successes, i have grown in confidence.

perhaps these words would help her.

She won't read here. Won't study. Won't see MC. WOn't tell uour pastor. Won't confide in friends. Won't confide in me. wont, wont won't.

She is paralysed by her shame.

bOb,

""and now a question to you. what are you wanting to express, anger or sadness or? second question, what would be the ideal response from her? don't tell me what you do not want her to do, play it out in your head the way you want it to occur. maybe, if it is sadness that you are needing to express, you want to be able to be held in her arms and possible shed some of your own tears? the point is, do you have a clearly defined image of how you want her to respond.""

These are very good questions. Can/did you answer them? Not here necesarily but to your satisfaction. Sorry I kind of forced my way in here.

k

krusht, i was wondering if Bob missed seeing those questions or was just avoiding answering.

you are being nudged some more bob.

regarding squid's "wont wont wont" in His time Bob, in His time. trust God will get her there.

of course that doesn't mean you cannot gently nudge her as we are trying to nudge you write now. perhaps you can steal some of the words her into a letter to her.

i decided on my way home today, that i was going to do that very thing for my H. for you see, so far, he will not read, will not do MC or IC, does not even talk much. now of course i am not going to try to force him here, but i am going to write him an email tommorow. unless i chicken out!!!

I have much less time here than I had. We POJAed my time onhere and we agreed only when I can't be doing stuff together with her so I can't ramble like I used to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My answer is NO, I don't have a clearly defined picture of how I want Squid to react. I have never been a year into recovery before.

I DO want Squid to start doing things that are good for MY healing regardless of her sadness however. F'ks sake I CARRIED her, our kids, our home, my job, and even OM GF while Squid abused us all, and managed it despite feeling sad enough to end it all some days. And since then I have largely carried recovery when it SHOULD be about the FWS.

Squid can't even hold me and let me cry.

OK heres the truth coming out: I think its PATHETIC. Squid was STRONG, confident and now she is broken down to putty.

YES her haughtiness and streak of entitlement fueled her affair but she has lost all GOOD strength too.

And honestly ? Its hard to love somebody who hates themself.

I want her to take it on the chin, take ownership of her affair AND work on ME to make things right. But first she has to work on HER and right now her shame is paralyising her personal recovery.

I want Squid to put aside her shame and hold me. To make extraordinary efforts to make me feel better, however pathetic and unworkable those efforts may seem.

She write OM poems. I get Hallmark birthday cards with " love Squid" on them.

I need to know if she still misses him, and still believes any of her fog.

I needher to STAND UP and quit falling apart when I dare to say very gently that I'm sad and need a hug.

I DO need to cheer my sorry butt up ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

hi bob,

did that feel good? to write that all out? i would imagine it did. you are closing in on what you need from her.

have you ever directly asked her to do this? "squid, i'm sad right now and i need you to hold me" then take her to the couch or bed or where ever would be comfortable and situate yourself in the exact position that you want. yes, this means you are having to take charge and direct the scenerio but in doing so you will teach her exactly what you need.

look at this scenerio you wrote about:
this is where you step in and orchestrate exactly what you need.
see this to me is actually encouraging. she did not burst into floods of tears immediately, there was a bit of a door of opportunity.

you have to take those opportunities bob.

because here is another point. you said: and as much as you might think she does not know you feel this way, i bet at least sub-conciously she does. and the longer you allow the two of you to have more and more unsuccessful interactions, the harder it will get.

bob - take charge a bit more and orchestrate successful interactions!!

yup that is right, i'm asking you to take on more, that seems to be exactly the opposite of what you are saying you need. HOWEVER, what you are doing is teaching her and showing her that she can in fact hold you while you cry and how that helps you. she needs to see she can help, she needs to learn actions that can lead her to feeling proud of herself.

regarding: i could not agree more.

there was an exchange between pep and i (i'll try to find it later) during which the following point really hit home for me: being weak is selfish behaviour! (i'm not sure if that is the exact how she would repeat it but that is the msg i recieved) and i realized how right she was.

it was one of the many turning points for me i have recieved curtosey of MB.

i still don't always execute perfectly but again, sometimes i do, and that is more than i used to do, and the more successful attempts i have, the stronger i become.

Help squid have a successful experience in comforting you.

can you do that?

so, now that i have laid out everything so easily for you (yes, that is meant to be a joke) i'm not so sure about the email i was thinking about writing to my H. i asked him last night, if he was generally happy, how the summer was going for him, he said yes and the summer is going good, i said the kids seem to be happy, he agreed. then i asked him how he was internally did he ever want to talk about things, he said no but if when he does he will let me know.

so maybe i'm just supposed to relax and let him enjoy life as is?

we do have fun together, on the surface things are good.

i fear we are just avoiding the elephant because it is easier. and i fear the longer we keep avoiding it the easier it will be to avoid.

and we will end up having a shallow connection longterm.

however it's only been 9 months right? and afterall, we have a lifetime ahead of us still.

i wish i could say that with an optomistic tone in my voice!!!

i think it is time for me to get to work!!!

FL

This morning I held Squid and told her " Baby, this is a hurting time for me, and maybe for you. You really help me to get through this when you hold me and love me. Don't be crying and broken - I know how hard it is to be strong when you feel weak, but I ask you to be there or me through this".

She held me and looked sort of bemused like she didn;t understand what I had asked.

I truly think she doesn't understand how I can welcome the love from her that SHE deems to be polluted and unworthy.

Its as though she can only be happy if I am not praising her or wanting her. Living up to HER low asessment of herself.

How can she doubt my love for intention towards her after all I have done?

* sigh *

I will continue to reinforce that she can REALLY help me recover and I value that. And that I love her.

And I will be patient with her weakness. I'm not going to draw teeth from her as I have in the past while her Mom is so close to death.

bob, i used to think in order to show my H I was sincerly sorry was to be broken. it is very hard to get the concept that the best way to show him i am sorry is to show him how happy i am we are still together. i suppose that makes total sense when one thinks logically, but somehow that was hard for me to get.

also by being at peace with myself, i think his confidence can go up. he has told me straight out when i am upset he worries that means i am doing something i should not be doing, which is so the very LAST thing i want him to worry about!!! especially since nothing could be farther from the truth.

keep giving her the msg that it is her joy and happiness that will help you when you are sad. and that what you do not want is for her to be sad with you. you need her to cheer you up.

i think that is very hard for women (ok, at least this one, so maybe others too) we tend to think empathy is the way to go, which to me meant, if you are sad, i need to be sad too.

i hope this thread has helped you (and anyone else reading). it has helped me too. thanks and i hope your roller coaster goes up again for you soon.

FL, don't get me wrong I NEEDED to see Squid truly sorry and repentent. But this is , well, UNDIGNIFIED for the Squid I know and love.

And I wonder if sometimes it isn't just to get the sorry focus turned back on HER from me, if you get my meaning.

Good stuff though !

I am already happier today. Lots of praying.

Yes some bad stiff happened and I need to live with their consequences, but I don't have to live SADLY. I need to live VICTORIOUSLY !