Ok I have convinced my wife to post here with me, so you can all see from both sides of what is going on and hope it helps me more, because it seems that she has a lot more understanding than I do, but she says im not really telling it all either. I am the "husband" of our relationship, reason i say that is because we are not married but have been living together for 7 yrs, although for 6 I have considered her to be my wife. I read through most of the articles on this site today and after 2 long weeks of another woman being involved with me, and debating my own relationship, have come to realize that I really dont want to give it up and know that I have a lot of work to do to repair everything that I have done. I played the usual roles in this "affair", although I never slept with this other woman. But I took it even further, I played both sides, at one point i kept the other woman as my safety net incase things werent working out with my wife, then reversed using my wife as the safety net in case things didnt work with the other woman. Yes I know, I am a very poor excuse for a spouse. I really never realized through the entire thing what i was really doing to my other half. Today I made the decision that I needed to change, and really put forth the effort into rebuilding my relationship with my spouse. I approached her today with my new found understanding and some of the advice that I received here, including working on the end of contact letter, and knowing that we had a long hard road ahead of us, knowing I would have to deal with many of her emotions, feelings and just basically suck it up. But is this normal? She is telling me that there is a possibility that things may not work out, that she is not going to get her "hopes" up on us working things out, and that I need to do so much work on myself. I thought for sure that this would be a starting point for the both of us, that we would begin the so called "recovery" of our relationship, and now I feel as if theres a chance that im working towards empty dreams. Now I am back to wondering if this will be all worth it or not, I dont want to invest into the what ifs, and maybes, and well we shall sees. Im committed to making amends for my wrong doings and make things work between us, no matter what the costs. But if that is only going to be one sided, then i just dont know... Guess now is a good time to say Lord Help me...

Write the NC letter and stick to it.

You are the one that needs to start doing the work on putting the relationship back together. If you are not willing to do that, and you are the betrayer, why should your wife put in the least bit of effort?

It is not that I have more understanding than he does. I somewhat understand the pain im going thru. Im not understanding why I was put thru such great pain. I try and put myself in his shoes, and see where he is coming from. Yes I am depressed for what ever reasons. Though I believed in a lot of what was said to me. He has my heart completly. though now my heart is deep down in the pit of my stomach. I still love him. In the two -three week time period. my heart and feeling kept going further in the pit. Building up my hopes for us to be together and then in less than 24 hours i say stop talking to her. "She is a friend, I need a friend" is what i heard. I have this huge heart of mine. I think Okay im taking away one thing he says im not giving him... Happiness. I do that and again im taking away his happiness. So yes i played the sick game with my head. Keep her as a friend. Im making him happy.. though in my thoughts. I should be his friend. why does he not concider that in me. Have i screwed up in two yrs of on again off (more on than off) again depression. Why did he not tell me these things so we could work on it then. thoughts like that and many others go thru my head. I dont ask for these thoughts. They are there. I can forgive. I some how dont think I will ever forget. He has gotten my hopes up and then again took a knife and slashed it to pieces. Yes I do try and talk and say how i feel. But once my emotions took over you felt QUILTY of hurting me. so we talk.. i let my hope build back up. I wanted this to work out. i was sure it would. but once I brought up this other person. All i heard was she is just a friend. Tell me a friend is more important than your wife. trying to work things out. then i hear well you know i dont want to hurt her feelings. But yet you hurt mine. She is a treat to my relationship. How can i try to work things out with her in the picture? Yes I have asked many times over. Every time my emotions came out i feel that he felt like he had to get my hopes up. and everytime i wanted this other person to hurt. Her emotions came before mine. he says he was confused. Yes i do agree. But i see in the time of his confussion who came first. last time my heart got shreaded with a knife of yet another hope gone that he let me to believe. I realized I need to put me and my needs first. Now I bring up things in friendship conversation. telling myself making myself to believe if this is the only way i can make him happy... we will be friends. Atm I say it is to late. my heart says jump in and work on it. but yet my heart is not in my chest either. still in the pit. Yes im scared. very scared of being hurt feeling like this again. no i dont want to base are relation ship on what ifs and maybes.. just on reality. I cant promise my depression will get in the way. Truthfully I dont think it was my depression that got in the way. His heart took him somewhere else. So what should i do, believe. i dont want to say .... lets work on it. and im faking being happy to make things work.. will it be worth it me not being me? Yes i guess i have made him unhappy. whats to say it happens again. it happened once. Iwas truely hurt and I still sm. I cant get up and say wow nothing nvr happened. that thought will be buired in my brain somewhere. yes I might need some help with depression. But I have commen sence. I dont know what to do at this point. I have never been through this. I have been through a lot. but this... WOW. please feel free to fill me with advise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Sinless -

His is an old story. They all don't want to hurt the OW, but could care less about hurting the BS.

He needs to write a NC letter, and be willing to stick to it. If he refuses, don't expect your relationship to survive.

Believer, I am more than willing to do that, posted that up there in the first part, I want to do that for her, and more than willing to stick to it, I admit to making so many mistakes through all this, but to now be willing to try and work this all out and be told, that it may be all one sided what am i to think. I am not looking for a way out, I am looking for help and understanding. I have never in my life been through something like this.

AWESOME... Then buy stock in Nike and JUST DO IT!!!!! That you've made this recent revelation is great but it doesn't erase the lies and betrayal nor is it sufficient for unilimited trust. So what power to you have right now? The power to put the actions behind your words, that's it.

Your wife is still going to have to go through a grieving process. Your past behaviors cannot go into the closet, they have to be dealt with, this will take time and yes it is an investment.

So I would say that yes, you and her can be "in recovery" by my definition. But my definition takes into account that your recovery begins with her also just beginning the grieving process.

Alcoholics and Addicts do many harmful things while they are going through their disease, just as you did while in your affair. Many times they have a spiritual awakening of sorts and go through treatment to stop their disease, just as you did. When they come out of their fog, what has changed, ONLY THEM. The actions they took and consequences they face for things done in addiction are still there. The lives they've destroyed are still there. So like you, they seek to make amends and that typically is an action step, not simply a statement.

Naiser, you have alot of hard work ahead of you, my friend. You have betrayed your W in the most greivous way you can. You have destroyed all trust in your relationship. You have continued this betrayal by staying in touch with your "friend" even though you knew it hurt her and almost ended your relationship. And you wonder WHY she is hopeless? Surely you jest!

You must repair the damage you have caused and give her a REASON to want to stay with you. You cannot DEMAND something you do not deserve and by all rights, should not get.

Give her a REASON to want to stay with you and stop punishing her for a natural reaction to your punishment. Start reassuring her and start taking ACTIONS to restore trust and repair the damage you have inflicted. Otherwise, why would she have hope? She would be crazy to have hope unless you DEMONSTRATE something for her have hope IN. But you cannot have that just by demanding it. Trust has to be EARNED. It is not an entitlement.

First off:

1. Send a letter of no contact to the OW

2. Give your W the passwords to all your cell phones, voicemail, etc

3. Account for all of your time to her

4. Put a keylogger on your computer that only SHE has a password to

5. Hold her and love her to pieces until she can't stand it anymore!

Here is some good reading frm one of our resident wayward spouses:


PAT's Quick Start Guidelines For Wayward Spouses

Rule 1: Stop the affair. That you came to a site such as this, looking for help/support is a great step. It is by far not the only step. However, if you are still conducting the affair, it must stop. You will be unable to repair any damage or gain any forgiveness as long as the affair is ongoing. The affair will continue to cloud your already suspect judgment (you know…the bad judgment that got you involved in it in the first place) and you will be what is called a “Fence Riding Cake Eater.”

Also, Betrayed Spouses are encouraged to expose continuing affairs in order to facilitate their ending. When done sincerely, this is not an act of revenge, but rather one of hope for reconciliation. Own up to your mistake and NEVER blame your spouse for “telling on you” when you are the one who was wrong.

Rule 2: Write a No-Contact Letter to the Other Person stating you are immediately ending the affair, that you will attempt to rebuild your marriage, and you request no further contact. Share it with your spouse and then ask your spouse to mail it to the Other Person. Do NOT fall victim to "in person" closure or tempting "final goodbyes". End it cold turkey. Once the affair is stopped, all contact must be ceased. This rule will vary somewhat for situations where children are born of the affair, but for the “general” case, ALL CONTACT WITH THE OTHER PERSON MUST END. All of it. You need to understand that you are an addict. If you are torn between staying with your spouse and staying with the Other Person, this is addictive behavior. Your spouse is the one who loves you. The Other Person was using you, and you were using them. Continuing ANY contact is extremely dangerous to your marriage even if you are the most sincerely remorseful Wayward Spouse that ever existed.

NOTE: Here is Marriage Builder advice on how to end the affair. This is part 2 of a 4 part series called “Coping with Infidelity”. Whereas all parts are important, and you should read them, part 2 applies to Rule 1 and 2, specifically. Here is a place to start when an Other Child is part of the situation (a child either on the way or already born due to the affair).

Rule 3: Read the concepts on the Marriage Builders site. You will need them as a foundation in order to move forward. Study them. Get to know them. Honesty, openness and kindness are all tenets of the principles here. Principles ranging from “What is Radical Honesty and why is it important?” to “Emotional Needs” are discussed in the articles here. The wise man doesn’t write a thesis on the Stock Market without gathering knowledge on the subject, so apply that idea here and study.

Rule 4: Find an outlet for your feelings and thoughts. You are hurting. You will go through a period of depression. You need a place to get it out. You need a place to get answers. Be mindful of guilt. Sure, you should feel guilty for this debacle, but too much focus on guilt can be stifling. If you are sitting in the corner of a dark room rocking back and forth on the floor, mumbling to yourself, due to guilt...this is not productive.

This site has helped countless people in your position, so use it. However, be aware that both Wayward and Betrayed spouses post here and they are all in differing points in their recovery (or lack thereof) from this horrible time. That said, take all posts in and think about them. You may feel as though you are getting attacked. You truly aren’t. You are getting the truth. If someone posts after you, berating you and your behavior, well face it….Infidelity is a nasty, emotionally charged issue and if you were in their shoes, you might well react in the same manner. It is your responsibility alone to make what you get from here constructive.

Rule 5: This will likely be the worst experience of your spouse’s life. They will be a prime candidate for depression, so discuss seeing a doctor if they are having difficulty coping. They may need anti-depressants. Point them to this site and invite them to read and participate. They will need support. They are also a prime candidate for their own affair. PRAY THEY DON’T DO IT!

Rule 6: Get tested for STD’s. If you had sex during this affair, it doesn’t matter if you wore a nuclear fallout suit. Your spouse HAS THE RIGHT to know if they are infected with or have been exposed to any STD’s. So, be a grown-up and go get tested. Now! Then fully discuss the results with your spouse. Again, they have the right to know what STD's they may or may not have as a result OF YOU.

Rule 7: Your credibility will be shot for a long time. Sorry, but it is the truth. Your lying and hiding and covert actions all add up to you being a low-down dirty cheat. The good news is that you can recover from this. The bad news is that it will be a long road. By stopping the affair, sending the no-contact letter and being an open book to your spouse, you will begin walking this road. You do have the ability to change “I am a cheater” to “I was a cheater and will never be again”.

One of the key requirements of regaining your credibility is to divulge the entire affair to your spouse. Every detail. All of it. Secrets between spouses create and maintain walls. If you divulge all the secrets, you have done something to tear down the walls that now separate you and your spouse. This is a big one. Remember it. It will be a horrible journey for you. It will be worse for them.

Rule 8: Your spouse, whom you betrayed, is possibly going to act like a psycho. One minute they may be talking to you in a regular tone and the next, their head may split open, the devil may come out and they may begin frothing about how much they hate the very sight of you. This is normal. They are psycho. Why? Because you destroyed them!

You have hurt them in such a horrid way, it's indescribable. Imagine someone degrading you like a slave, killing you like the Nazis did the Jews, spitting on your dead corpse like the Italians did to Mussolini and any other horrid “atrocity” you can think of and then lump it all together. Now, imagine that the person that did all these horrid things to you had been professing they “loved” you. Yeah…they are going to be psycho. You put them there. Be part of the solution and help get them out. Their staying with you is not a requirement of this.

Rule 9: You are not the victim. If you were raped, then you were a victim. If you willingly went into a hotel/motel/closet/office/backseat/<your place here> and engaged in sex, then you are not a victim. If you chatted for hours getting endless needs meet from a “friend” online, you are not the victim. Your spouse, whom you betrayed, is the victim, period. You victimized them. You may be dealing with a bad time right now as a result of this affair, but you had the choice to do or not to do it. That is the key. Your spouse did NOT get to choose. You chose for them and hurt them by doing it. Victim. Also related to this area is justification. Well…you had none. If you didn’t like the marriage, then you should have done something about it, not someone. Rational grown-ups would have chosen counseling or possibly coming to this site PRIOR to engaging in an affair. There is no justification for betrayal, so save yourself the grief and figure out as soon as you can that you had no justification for this huge mistake.

Rule 10: Your situation is not likely to be unique. The actions and statements of Wayward Spouses are surprisingly similar. You can gain understanding and support from just about anybody else who has experienced an affair. Additionally, do not try to “snow” someone here. Most have been here long enough to know crap or “fog thinking” when they see it. And if you are displaying “fog thinking”, expect to get called out for it.

Then take action. Type it up this afternoon and let your wife read it and mail it off. That is a step in recovery.



What are you to think? Think that you've hurt your wife greatly and committed probably the most selfish act conceivable without regards to her, her feeling, or her willingness. And think that a few words won't change that however, continued positive actions will influence how you two grow in a relationship. After the trust you've broken what is her motivation to simply take your word as gospel? There isn't any, so act like your from Missouri and SHOW HER.

Neither of you at this point need to give much mind to the emotions that you are feeling...

emotions are fleeting....

Naiser your first task is to let go of your belief that somehow or somewhere you are going to be a given a written garuntee that this or that relationship is going to work...

life doesnt work like that...for any of us

you also need to look at the reality of what your actions in your affair define you as ...and decide if that is the type of person you are...and the type of person you can be happy with being....

You need to take a serious look not at feelings but the reality of what type of person your actions of the affair defined you as and decide if you can live with being that type of person....
or if there is a bigger picture...even inspite of who you end up with in life.....

your wife is correct in the sense that your real road to recovery is you taking full ownership of the actions of your affair....

not you and her working on things...that's seperate from you previous route of choice...

to you sinless...

you as we all are called to forgive....and your choice of a moniker is intersting to say the least...

though the role of BS is made up of much unfairness...there is great learning and compassion in the role as well...though I would never be naive enough to say an affair is a good thing...no matter the blessing wrought...God moves in his way....not ours..

again though your feelings of uncertainity as to whether or not you can work through are interesting.but little us..and don't really mean that much......at this point they hold little value and meaning and should not be offered as the end all of answers as to where this marriage will end up....
for nothing will get resolved over feelings...it must come through actions...
yours
his
eachothers

ofcourse you feel overwhelmed ...but this to can and shall pass...

the bigger picture you are seeking is
CAN PEOPLE CHANGE

it is my unshakable belief that they can...based on the fact I have changed and continue to change who I am and was...

as has so many people in my life...

you should not be concerned with feeling of happiness right now there isn't much in your marriage to be happy about...

all of these type of side trips off of the path of recovery are divergent and avoidance of really doing the actions of fixing this....

you both already are blessed as there are BS who give anything to hear only a smidgen of things that naiser has professed....

this is marriage building..
this is a place with a plan
this is a place where people learn to never go back to being who they were...but come together to create marriage that they both envision....

ARK^^

Sinless,

"I dont want to base our relationship on what ifs and maybes.. just on reality."

Just for reference, read this (there are two letters, read both of them): http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5025_qa.html

Long term prognosis: cut your losses.

Sinless,

I hope that you are prepared for more" truths and honesty" as time goes on. From what I am reading, his story just does not pass my litmus test of believability.

My sentiments exactly, Cymanca.

I know and believe people can change. however it is up to that person to change. I have said once i will try and change on seek help for my depression. Yet he wanted me to promise him i could change. change what about me.. dont be depressed anymore? I asked him what did my depression do to are relationship. So i could get some understanding. i come home from work. I read, take a nap, or get on the net? he is busy during them times. we dont spend enough time together. cause i dont always go to him. I do at times granted he tells me now that i didn't. i thought i have. why has he not come to me. Im suppose to read his mind. How? I told him i could change that. I try my best to understand him. I cant understand someone who dont want to share, he says i dont share things with him, and he always afraid of hurting my feelings. well he was not afraid these last two-three weeks. I thought and believed i shared things with him. I am willing to change. though im not sure what he is really expecting from me. he dont come straight out and tell me. am i to guess at it?

Naiser if you think you can have this OW as a friend you can forget it. My WH also thinks because they did not have sex it was fine. I should not be upset. She is a good woman. ect ect. I do not trust him for those statements. It takes his burden away from his deceit. My WH went on for over 2 years. He was verbally abuse to me and showed no love only hate for me. I am not sure I will stay in this M because he just does not get it. He gives me answers today and changes them tomorrow. I write things down in a journal so I am not nuts. Yes I was dpressed and still am -what would anyone expect after going thro this. To be full of joy because the light dawned that he might loose Me? You need to become trust worthy. You need to be there for your W. You need to prove to her that you love her, like her, she is your best frined. This OW I asume knew you were M - what kind of person has an EA with a M man? Would she be the woman you would trust. You know you would not she is decietful as well. All in the name of friendship. That is BS. I work with many men and none ever became a hidden friendshitp from my H ever. If it is something you can NOT tell your W then it is wrong. You Know this and so doesn't your wife.

Sinless,

Please get help for your depression for yourself, not for anyone else no matter who they are.

Live life to the fullest for you. You have within you the ability to be a joy to be around.

Then you will attract people who are also a joy to be around.

Here is what you sound like to me in your posts" "Please don't leave me, I will change!"

Here is what you should be saying: "It's time I took life by the horns and lived it for me. If X, Y or Z want to share it with me, great. But I will be happy for me!"

With prayers,

so do you have a bigger picture of how you want the two of you to interact?

this whole paragraph is perfect example of completely broken down communication..

a bunch of he said she said kabloooey hoo-haw...

I have said once i will try and change on seek help for my depression.
a person does not try to seek help for depression..a person does it...if this was diabetes would you tell your spouse..OK I will try to see a doctor...

depression is treatable and managable with the right tools...there is not trying to treat it..there is only treating it...

I asked him what did my depression do to are relationship

that is an excellent question BUT only if you are truly interested in his response...
if you are only interested in asking such things to NOT listen to his answers
and turn them around on him
and accuse him of things...
then there is NO point in asking....

ask him again

and listen WITHOUT comment...even if you agree or disagree...learn to listen
without making your defense
without tuning him out to gear up your response...

stop and listen....

we dont spend enough time together.
so change that...you change it..inspite of his actions YOU do it......

I am willing to change. though im not sure what he is really expecting from me. he dont come straight out and tell me. am i to guess at it?

you need to ask him
he needs to answer...

nope guessing has gotten you both here this far..

ARK^^

I know if anything getting help for my depression would be for me and no one else. Though I am somewhat content with the way i am. I live with it. It is something that is there. and i believe it does not interfer with my everyday needs or life. though he does. so if i was to seek help who am i really doing it for. I would like to say the both of us. but i dont think i would be doing it for me. Atm i am much more depressed than normal. I can understand why. Im very lost in this. and atm I am having a hard time dealing with it. I dont know if i am thinking correctly anymore mainly when it comes to this OW. I somehow make my H unhappy. he found someone to be happy. i say cut it off. knowing i just made him feel unhappy. hurts me. Yes i would love from him to say. its done. I love you. but i dont. its I dont want to hurt her. I dont care about her being hurt thru this. I care more about him being hurt than myself. so there for i say ok let me change and try to deal with this OW and trust him they will be friends. YAY i made him happy. about time i did. now he will pick me. well nect thing i know its late at night he is talking on the phone. he does it late at night so he dont hurt me? Great now he is hiding something from me. What did I do wrong I made him happy? Again I tell him how i feel. He is like okay just let me brake it off slowly. I tell him no. just let me do this my way. Well ok let me try again. i want to do something i must not of been doing to make him happy. so i give him a time limit. never happened. again she calls him or he calls her late at night. no telling how many times they talk when im at work. We are just friends now he tells me. Ok to make him happy. ok. talk just dont hide it from me. Now i feel uncomfortable when he is in an other room talking softly.. why? so i cant hear him? wow time for me to wake up. what is he doing to me... wanting me to brake it off with him. that way he is not hurting me. I do I love him dearly. im risking everything I had or what i thought i had with him. at my own cost. im willing to be unhappy to make him happy. Will that work? for him maybe? what about me? am i fooling myself? why did he feel the need to hide them calls when i was willing to deal with it. to make him happy. i told him it would be hard. but i wanted to know she was just a friend. cant tell if your hiding the calls.
How much am i willing to go thru? I dont know. I dont know what im doing anymore, what is the right thing to think. I dont want to be doing this for all the wrong reason. How do i know what he wants is what he wants this time yet again.. all i got to go on is trust. is it worth it? I love him dearly... I do. I dont however want to hurt. and I do. why dont he see how bad i really hurt. I showed enough tears, i even at times thought that was pushing him away. i tried to be strong. again i felt if i was pushing him away. I want all this pain gone. Someone help me find me right now

Yes i do have a problem with interupting him. He knows why. I have a problem with trying to question him on things he said when he is done. I do listen and try to understand him. and if i dont understand i ask question telling him i dont understand. If i dont interupt i miss word things and he takes it the wrong way. and then I have to try to explain to him what i heard him say though i dont word it right. we end up getting nowhere. I do let him finish saying what he has to say and i listen well. I dont think he listens to me. as well as he thinks he does. i ask him question and want answers. but sometimes his answers change. or for some reason he states i misunderstood his first answer. Most of the time I believe he thinks he has or is going to hurt me with what he says. I dont think he understands i hurt already just say it and let me get the pain over with. I dont want him to hide and not tell me things. I dont do that to him. i say it but then i say i wish i could take it back. he could do the same thing... could he not instead of hiding when he is confronted with something he has said. Yes I want him and I to work out. I dont know for sure if that is what he is wanting, knowing he dont want to hurt me

Sinless,

Everything you have tried with me has been that just for me. Me is what got us here in some aspects. Yes your depression does affect the way I feel on a day to day basis. This is why I said I must try and find a way to be happy with myself, that way I can be happy when you are not, instead of trying to be happy just because you are happy. The late calls were not timed, planned or "hidden as you would say", the whispering, well yes, its because I dont want you to hear me talking, why? because I dont want to have to be totally careful of every little word I speak wondering which one might just crush you any further. None of this is neither here nor there. The people here and the articles I have read all say the same thing, SHE HAS TO GO !!!. I can live with this, yes fantasies may be fun, but they are just that, a fantasy. I will still need my happiness that this OW gave me, but I have a responsibilty to look for the happiness that we can have together. Yes I am the stronger person, who doesnt show all his emotions and puts up the good front in front of you and everyone else making everyone think that all is ok and nothing is wrong, that is who I am, but inside it is furthest from the truth and you know this. I see some believe that the story is far from over, or maybe cut your losses. The story is just beginning in my eyes, and it will be a long time before the story is finished. Of course I want you to believe in me and trust in me. I know as well this will take time. I know how much I have hurt you, devastated you, yes you are the victim here, not me, although I would like to make myself feel like the victim, ughhh. This is what I am willing to do for you.

1. Write my NC letter and ask you to look at it and send it for me. Then I will stand behind that letter.

2. Work on making myself happy, and help you through this grieving process and try my hardest to help repair the damages I have done to us.

3. Make my life an open book to you, meaning give you access to anything and everything, so as to make you believe there is nothing for me to hide.

4. Love you unconditionally, because I do love you, and I will never be able to make this up to you, but I really do want it to work out for both of us.

What I want in return- (and yes everyone, i know i shouldnt want anything from her right now, and have no rights in asking, but im going there anyways)

Try and seek help for your depression, not for me, but yes so that I can see you a happy woman again, who loves life.

Try and learn to believe in me, trust in me, and love me the way you always did.

N