ForeverHers,

I didn't want to thread-jack, so thought I'd start another post. As to your question "Just out of curiousity, Whisper28, what do you consider a "2x4" and what about it, or what has been said, is apparantly offensive to you?"

This is going to make some folks very uncomfortable, but I'm a firm believer that what is right according to someone's faith, religion, family, cultural and/or social beliefs, etc., and what is right for an individual may or may not be the same. Can it cause internal conflict when there's ambivalence? Certainly. But, I still stand by my belief because I also see how society can “brain-wash” its citizens into believing that what is socially or culturally acceptable is what is right for the individual. Heck, I just watched a show on Discovery Channel the other day where a more primitive culture thought that women had no soul. Luckily, there are some who are willing to go against the grain so as to preserve our sense of freedom … and pursuit of happiness.

Based on what you've shared, I gather you are a believer of Christ and His teachings. Of the things I've learned in my years of study of Christianity, one that stuck is that we're all human, complete with imperfections - including our interpretation of His teachings. Thus, it's not up to us to judge, but rather to love and accept those who are flawed and leave the judging up to Him. I could be wrong.

What I do find offensive is when I see a desperate WS looking for help on MB, yet cruel judgement is all that's bestowed because of the pain and suffering that our BS's have experienced. When a WS is indecisive (and need us the most), I’ve often read why a WS should return to his/her S, but what's lacking is the how .

Perhaps I'm over-interjecting my own experience here , but as a FWW, I specifically recall when I was going through the indecisions, the guilt, the difficulties of my M, logic and socially-accepted notions rarely made a difference. What I was looking for was (in this order) 1) hope - that there was even a chance things could be better 2) how to get out of the mess I was in and 3) what does the recovery process entail. Those that made the biggest impact on my “seeing the light” and turning around were the ones who were able to withhold their judgement; who showed me patience, compassion and support; and those who shared what it took to make things better. Too often have I seen a scared, indecisive WS being berated and chastised then leave when they needed us the most. We aren’t helping these WS’s and certainly aren’t doing their respective BS’s any favors. I am one of the few WS’s who stayed despite the 2x4’s. I wonder how many potential marriages we could have helped had we been able to withhold our judgement??? Has anyone noticed why there are so many BS’s versus WS’s on this forum? I can assure you it isn’t because the WS’s are not looking for support, help and answers. Of all the WS’s who started as junior members, I’d like to know just how many actually stick around long enough to become members or even recover? I would guess the numbers are quite few. Why?

Please note that when I was seeking answers, I certainly wasn’t interested in knowing how shameful and damning my behavior was to a bunch of strangers on a website. Frankly, I think most FWS/WS would agree that while we may not know the full extent of the impact our actions would have on those around us, we certainly are/were conscious that what we were doing was/is wrong – before, during and after the A, or else we wouldn’t be here in the first place. I, for one, was looking for answers on how and if I and my marriage could change and improve – not how God nor anyone else disapproves of my actions. I already knew that part.

If we're so focused on the why's (versus how's), then we must keep in mind that, typically, the reason why a WW became wayward is NOT because some evil force that all of sudden compelled one to turn to evil. It's because we're human ... because our basic, human emotional needs were not met. Just as Harley mentioned in many of his writings, those who engage in A's did not come from the bottom of some dark, unnamed society but rather church-goers, successful executives - good, loving, well-meaning people who have gone through a myriad of experiences that I can't possibly imagine. I find Foundareason's stat interest: "over 50% of CHURCH STAFF MEMBERS admit to surfing for porn on the internet AT WORK!" Why? Because church staff members are HUMAN! So, unless anyone on this website has walked in your shoes and seen what you’ve seen, and experienced what you’ve experienced, far be it for me or anyone to pass judgement and say what one should or should not do in a M. All we can do is share our experiences, provide support and guidance and answer the questions to the best of our limited abilities and let God pass the judgement.

My 2-cents worth.

Whisper,

I am not answering for FH, not in the least. But I do have a couple of observations and a question. Then I will back out of the way. Way out of the way.

“Thus, it's not up to us to judge, but rather to love and accept those who are flawed and leave the judging up to Him. I could be wrong.”

I believe you are wrong. Christians are directed to confront sin directly. In fact, we are to approach a sinner in private first. If that does not work, then again with one or two others. If that does not work they are to be confronted by the congregation. Finally, they are to be left alone, more than left alone, they are to be stayed away from if none of these interventions work. All this implies definite moral judgment, loving confrontation and action by humans.

“…we certainly are/were conscious that what we were doing was/is wrong – before, during and after the A, or else we wouldn’t be here in the first place. I, for one, was looking for answers on how and if I and my marriage could change and improve – not how God nor anyone else disapproves of my actions. I already knew that part.”

If you knew it was wrong at all times and in all instances, and if you already knew God would judge you, why continue doing it? At some point you reach the sin against the Holy Spirit. At some point you are in fact unforgivable. You just admitted adultery is not a mistake but a conscious choice to hurt people. You just don’t like to think too much on it while doing it.

This is just a question. I sure don’t know the answer. None of my ENs were being met for 10 years in my M, yet I did not have an A, even when multiple opportunities were present. That must make me a real loser in the eyes of WSs. I could also have gotten my ENs met in any selfish way I want, then just say sorry when caught and its up to everyone else to still meet my ENs. Win-win for the WS, huh. I wish I could have the sense of entitlement you have. My life would be a lot happier, like yours.

I always knew what you say you always knew; yet I chose morally and ethically. How did you choose?

Perhaps some of us are more human than others. Or, maybe these are just words you are using and you don’t really believe in God.

However, we can discuss the judging of adultery on purely ethical grounds too, if you want.

Whisper28 - thank you for a thoughtful response and the time it took to compose and post it. Believe me when I tell you that I have no problem with being "sensitive" to others and "tolerant" of many things. Let me also say that "waiting" for the WS to "get over it" themselves does not work in every case. Sometimes a "confrontation," a "crisis," needs to occur first (ala Discovery Day) that "forces the issue to be addressed." It was so in my case. My wife was deep in a 6 year affair when I finally became aware of it. The ONLY thing that would have resulted from not "confronting the issue head-on" would have been the "final step" that they were planning, which was her leaving me a "Dear John" letter and her disappearing one day to go marry the OM.

So your response deserves a more thoughtful response that I don't have time for this morning. So I'm just tossing out a few things for you to think about, and possibly respond to, before I can get back to you with another post.

IF your logic is carried to it's "logical conclusion," at what point should (or should not) ANY aberrant behavior be confronted and addressed even if such confrontation would cause some "consternation" on the part of the recipient?

If NO judgments are to be made about anything, why have "right and wrong," "laws," or a judicial system? Or is it ONLY in matters of "Christian faith and behavior" that a "Christian" is supposed to be "constrained" from saying anything regardless of what ANOTHER professing Christian might be doing?

I could be wrong, but I think we might be talking about how some "interprets" what being a Christian is. To that end, of understanding the way you interpret it let me ask you to define your personal stance on two topics. 1. As a Christian, is your life surrendered to God and your will superceded by God's will regardless of what you "want" or "feel" if such wants and desires are in opposition to God's clear commands and teaching? 2. Do you consider the Scripture to be "God's Word," inerrant, inspired by God, and suitable for all "teaching, reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"?

Particular to the case that prompted your original response we are talking about two Christians, one of which is a Pastor. Both of which are in imminent danger of major trouble. Both of which are walking toward the quicksand and in need of someone to get them to "stop walking" first, then we'll deal with the issues that are driving them toward self-destruction. But to wait for them to "wake up" on their own is very similar to asking a drug or alcohol addict to "stop" on their own. Without help, without intervention, they will have to "lose it all and hit rock bottom" before they MIGHT have a chance to start climbing out on their own. WE can sit on the sidelines and allow that to happen, or we can say as kindly as we can "NO! Don't touch that hot stove!!"

No doubt about it, there IS a form of judgment that is entailed in telling someone that it's NOT all right to do something wrong or destructive. But that does not make such judgment wrong either anymore than it would a "sane" person trying to help someone "judged" insane to return to sanity.

God bless.

I hate to butt in, but you've struck a nerve. I won't try to approach the religious aspect of this topic. However, as a betrayed husband, I appreciate the input from BOTH sides of the issue. I am here because my WW is so deep in the fog that all I see in our future is a D. I come here to learn and to try and understand how this kind of thing can happen. Without the perspective of the WS's this forum would IMHO lose a lot of it's usefullness. When I see a post from a WW, I always read it and see if I can gain any knowledge, hope, whatever.

So please don't automatically bash all WS's. I would like to take a 2 X 4 to the OM in my wife's A, but that is not what this forum is for. Besides, for every WS that shows up here, there is a BS that deserves the help. So if you can help the WS, you have helped the BS. Just my 2 cents.

Hurtsalot99 - rest assured that no one "automatically bashes all WS's." In fact, the vast majority NEVER get "bashed."

Since I don't know you or your situation, I can't really offer any comments or suggestions for you. I DO hope you are finding some help here.

Folks,

I think we’re missing the point here. The question isn’t who is better at reciting or interpreting biblical scriptures but rather how can we aid those who are "having difficulty resolving a marital conflict" (sited from the front page of MB Discussion Forum). While Harley is a man of faith, his books are clearly written for the layman who is looking for ways to improve his relationship and marriage and NOT to force Harley’s own morals and/or religious values upon others. Isn't that really why we came here? I urge you to read the posts of our WS's sometime - without the filter and emotions of a BS/FBS. No where have I read ... Will somebody please tell me if adultery is right or wrong? Why? Because we KNOW the answer already. What most of us (BS’s and WS’s alike) is looking for is how to overcome it.

To Aphelion's question - "If you knew it was wrong at all times and in all instances, and if you already knew God would judge you, why continue doing it?"

>I hate to throw the question back and ask the same thing - have you ever knowingly done anything wrong in your life? If so, why did you do it?

"None of my ENs were being met for 10 years in my M, yet I did not have an A, even when multiple opportunities were present.

>Just because you elected to remain faithful to your wife doesn't make you a better or worse person than anyone else here. You simply made a decision that you can live with (period). I happen to believe that there are lots of WS's/FWS’s who are good, loving, productive members of our society. If that wasn't the case, why are there so many BS's willing to go through this much suffering to get them back? I refuse to believe it's solely because all BS's are so committed to their marriage vows and/or Christian beliefs. I happen to know there are plenty of committed BS's here who are from all different cultural, religious, political, socio-economic background that would prove otherwise.

FH – To answer your questions …

“IF your logic is carried to it's "logical conclusion," at what point should (or should not) ANY aberrant behavior be confronted and addressed even if such confrontation would cause some "consternation" on the part of the recipient?”

>I think it would take a tremendous amount of information and a lot of walking in that person’s shoes for me to evaluate whether or not his actions are considered “aberrant.” Even so, do you really think that the wife of a minister does not know that adultery is wrong? What makes you think she isn’t drowning in her own internal struggles? IMHO, you might as well have just pointed your finger at Catherine and screamed “sinner, sinner, sinner!” In fact, you’ve never even answered any of her questions! As a FWW, I’ve been in her shoes. If she’s anything like me, she’s frightened, embarrassed and very alone; and this is her desperate cry for help because she has nowhere else to turn. She’s asking those questions for a reason, and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t to confirm that she is or isn’t a sinner.

”If NO judgments are to be made about anything, why have "right and wrong," "laws," or a judicial system? Or is it ONLY in matters of "Christian faith and behavior" that a "Christian" is supposed to be "constrained" from saying anything regardless of what ANOTHER professing Christian might be doing?”

>Again, this is not about validating personal and/or societal morals and beliefs. It’s about helping someone in need. When a WS is desperate for help, do you truly believe that casting judgement and citing scriptures will somehow turn them toward the right path? Also, do you really want your WS to return because she was berated, guilted or harrassed into it? Or, would you rather think that her return was predicated upon the fact that she found hope in you and the M and wanted to return on her own volition?

“1. As a Christian, is your life surrendered to God and your will superceded by God's will regardless of what you "want" or "feel" if such wants and desires are in opposition to God's clear commands and teaching? 2. Do you consider the Scripture to be "God's Word," inerrant, inspired by God, and suitable for all "teaching, reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"?”

>Like many who have come here seeking help, I am not a Christian … neither did I come to here to be “converted” nor “judged” because of my religious beliefs. I’ve seen my share of hypocrisies when it comes to religion and those who “flaunt” their faith only to justify their hypocrisies. Sadly, history (and reality) has seen this repeated all too often. I, for one, believe in and appreciate the goodness of the human spirit – regardless the faith one chooses.

“But to wait for them to "wake up" on their own is very similar to asking a drug or alcohol addict to "stop" on their own. Without help, without intervention, they will have to "lose it all and hit rock bottom" before they MIGHT have a chance to start climbing out on their own. WE can sit on the sidelines and allow that to happen, or we can say as kindly as we can "NO! Don't touch that hot stove!!"

>I couldn’t agree with you more. But, again, I implore you – what do you consider as “help”? Citing scriptures and casting judgement? Perhaps the fear of damnation works in a few instances; but, more often than not, the addict will need to 1) know that there is hope for a better life without the object of his addictions and 2) feel safe and trust in the rehabilitation process … in order to allow himself be guided through recovery. After all, an addict still needs to want to be rehabilitated in order to be rehabilitated.


“No doubt about it, there IS a form of judgment that is entailed in telling someone that it's NOT all right to do something wrong or destructive. But that does not make such judgment wrong either anymore than it would a "sane" person trying to help someone "judged" insane to return to sanity.”

>True, but by simply telling someone who is insane that they’re insane doesn’t exactly help them become sane, does it?

Whisper - i am with you. i come here and look for responses from everyone - but you gotta know that when i am trying to get inside my WW's head and learn what feelings she is having that she will not tell me and i am too dense to discern - i come looking for YOUR VOICE specifically. i greatly appreciate your input into my sitch. i feel i am better educated when i see the other side of the coin.

We have a tremendous resource here. i do not think we should give the WSs a free ride - we "should call a spade a spade" - but i think there is merit in taking it easy on the WSs that come here for a while - to lure them in and get them comfortable with us. Let them realize that they are welcomed here, and can be honest with us without harsh judgement. BECOME FRIENDS with us. THEN - as friends - we can approach them gently but firmly with what we all believe the truth is: that the marriage can very likely survive and become more wonderful than they ever imagined.

The best psychological approach to the WSs that come here, ImHO, is to love them, let them know they are welcome, and work with them to guide them to the right path.

Thanks, Whisper, for posting. For staying, and helping. We could use more voices like yours. It gives folks like me hope. And that is all i have got.

"Like many who have come here seeking help, I am not a Christian … "

Whisper28 - I have to leave for work in a couple of minutes, so I'll be very brief for now even though your post deserves a more complete response.

You are "judging." The very thing that you "argue against" for Christians. You place YOUR reason above God and then "attack" anyone who says "obey God" as the basis of minimal "expected" behavior from some who claims to be a Christian. As a Christian, I have been told on some occasions in the past to "keep my Christian views and morals" out of a discussion with, or advice to, a non-Christian. It would seem equally "appropriate" to ask a non-Christian to keep their humanistic advice out of a discussion between Christians, wouldn't it?

No, I'm not saying "don't say anything." This is a public forum and anyone can say anything they wish. But I do think it's appropriate to point out that Christians, whether you like it or agree with it or not, "march" to God's will, not human reason.

I don't expect you to understand that, but it is "offensive" to have a non-Christian attempt to tell a Christian that it is NOT important to simply "obey God."

So, why don't you go back to the original thread in question and read the posting that has been going on there to see if there is "unfeeling" advice being given or advice that says to a fellow Christian that "obeying God" is NOT important. That may help you with your consternation in this current matter, or it might not. Regardless, it is a Christian's "duty" to surrender to God and to obey God regardless of any "feelings," hurt or otherwise.

I thought I might join in also, if you guys dont mind.According to Christ and the Bible...yes, you are wrong. Christians are told they MUST judge. I can provide many examples and the Scriptures that outline that. True, we are to love everyone, including our enemies. But that does not mean we accept their actions, nor not tell them the truth. By accepting wrong behaviors or being quiet about their sin, we are actually not being loving.

Who does that? ForeverHers? Me? Who? Sure, there is some anger out there. And some have been inappropriate in that. But most FWSs who are on here will tell you that a WS that is still in the fog (as Catherine is) cannot see the truth...and coddling her will not help her find it. She must be made aware of the seriousness of what she has done, and she must be made aware of the hard choices she must make. That is the LOVING thing to do.

That is not lacking at all. It is right here on MB. And the first thing is that they admit the affair (exposure on their own...or exposure by the BS), and then following the steps Dr. Harley has for recovery. It is all very simple. Notice I did not say it was easy...I just said it was simple.

You proved my point. We know this. Look, I will give a hug to anyone that needs it. But that does not mean I will sugar coat the truth. The truth is the only thing that will help a WS out of their problem.

Good. And we have provided that to Catherine...but that hope comes from her actions first.

As outlined thru what we were posting. She had to first realize that she was half the problem, that her husband's porno was no worse or better than her EA. Until she did that, any other actions would be moot.

And we outline that on here. If you have read any of my threads or FH's, you will see that we work our butts off trying to provide that. But it is useless to talk about recovery with a foggy WS. They have to first get up and end the affair (which means they have to realize where they are and what they have done).

Sure, and you needed that compassion and support. But the last part, the part of telling you how to make things better, pre-supposes that you discuss where you are and what the problem is.

When? I have been on this board for years. And I havent seen much of that. I have mostly seen frank discussions of what they have done, what it takes to get out of their mess, and what it takes to build a new relationship with their spouse. Most of the WSs that didnt stay, that were "scared off," left because they didnt want to end their affair and they didnt want to hear the truth. And a person cannot be helped unless they are willing to hear the truth, and willing to act upon it.

Many WSs have stayed. And 2x4s fly all of the time. Actually, I tend to throw a lot more 2x4s at my fellow BSs then at WSs.

There is that bbaaaddd word "judgement" again. I will go into this at the end of my post.

WSs arent on here because they arent into marriage building...they want justification for their affairs.

Above you said most had left. Now you are asking how many have left. You are making suppositions on facts that you dont know the answers to.

I do not bring up the wrongness of actions without telling how to change it. Period. You may have been looking for help, but again...most WSs come on here and try to justify their affairs. Catherine was trying to justify her EA because her husband has been involved in porno. She felt that was so much worse. It isnt. And on the God issue, if a person says they are a Christian, then I will give them the truth as outlined by Christ. If you do not believe, then fine. We can stick to the basics. But for Christians, we believe that His word isnt irrelevent...but actually the most relevent for us to live our lives by.

Being human is being evil. As a Christian, we understand our fallen nature. None of us are good. We all have failed and fallen short of God's standard. All have the same penalty that we face, which is death. But take it away fro ma Christian perspective for a sec. Why didnt I act upon my urges, etc. because of my wife cheating on me? We didnt I get in my own affair? God knows, things were bad for me, my wife had left my kids and me and was shacking up with the OM. What makes me different from her? My needs werent being met.

You see, many WSs want to push their affairs back on the BS. And while the BS is responsible for the conditions that were set that allowed the WS to get into an affair, they are NOT responsible for those immoral actions. Those actions are the responsibility of the WS alone. They are due to a problem within the WS, a lack of boundaries or ability to do the right thing when the heat is on. I now understand that my wife is not me. That my boundaries against an EA or PA are so much higher than hers. That I have the moral fiber to not only understand what is right and wrong, but to act upon that in the case of affairs and marriage. She has shown that she does not have those boundaries or abilities. This is a part of recovery. it is me understanding what my wife is missing, and helping to protect her basically from herself. As I said above, the affair happened because the WS allowed it and was either unable to or did not care to, follow what was right.

Exactly!! My wife worked at our church and the Crisis Pregnancy Center. She taught on Wednesday evenings to the kids at church. Remember what I said...no one is "good." We all have sinned and fallen short. No one sin is worse than another. In my wife's case, she failed to do what was right when it came to not committing adultery. Plain and simple. Just as I have failed in other areas of my life. WSs that come on here and want help must first understand who they are and what they have done. Sugarcoating it will not help them.

How can you provide guidance if you dont pass judgement?

Now, I want to get on this judgement thing because it is central to what you are saying here. We must judge. We all judge everyday. In many ways. You want to use it as a bad word. And if you mean by judgement being someone just standing there with their arms folded calling someone else evil, then yes, that is wrong. But I as a Christian am commanded to judge. One day, when Jesus returns, all Christians will be the ones who judge the fallen angels and non-Christians before they are sent to eternalk damnation. We will do it.

In judging here on Earth, God only commands us to judge in love, and to not judge hypocritically. By that, He means that if I am guilty of a sin, then I shouldnt judge someoen else for that same sin.

Judgement just means to see and understand the reality of something. When I walk down the street and I look at this guy walking toward me, I must judge if I am in danger or not. I do so by many factors. Most often, I do so not by fact, but by feeling. That is wrong. That is what leads a person to judge that man to be a threat just because he has battered clothes, or just because he is a black man. That isnt righteous judgement.

Judgement must be made on facts. Once a judgement based o nthe facts is made, then it is the loving thing to do for a person to go to that person who is sinning and to tell them and to offer to help them out of their sin. It is not loving to say "That's okay." It is not loviung to walk away and say "Well, I cant judge."

Unfortunately, without the presence of God and His commandments...then you would be right. We all would not be allowed to judge. Because who says that adultery is wrong? If you do, then that would be you makign a judgement. Maybe I thin kadultery is right. What right do yo uhave to say that it is wrong?

Maybe killing someone is right? What right do you have to put me away in jail? Just because a majority says its wrong? Remember, a majority said it was okay to own slaves and a majority believed the world was flat. Does that make it right? Of course not. There must be a higher standard. And that has to be the truth.

And who gets to say what the truth is? You? Me? The majority? I think not. If it is that way, then the truth can be changed just by convincing others to go your way.

No, truthes are "self-evident." Why are they self-evident? Because they were issued by someone higher than the majority...not subject to the majority.

Anyway, I think you get the point. If someone comes on here, trying to justify their affair, they will be lovingly "judged" and will be told what is going on and how they can get right. If a BS comes on here and is enabling their spouses affair by not exposing it, we will lovingly judge that they are not doing right and tell them where they are failing and what they need to do to get things right.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

In His arms.

Whisper28 - the primary answer to your question is that MOST former Wayward Spouses, and most formerly Betrayed Spouses, who have recovered their marriages stop coming here because they don't need the support anymore and because MB is also a "reminder" of what they went through. At some point, we all have to "put the past behind" and walk into a newer and brighter future together. If MB causes "dwelling on the past" problems, then, as with all other sources of problems in the marriage, it is eliminated in the vein of "forsaking ALL others" for our spouse.

There are many wonderful threads from recovered members who no longer frequent the place. You can find a lot of them in the "notable posts" section in the archives.

Some of them were "gone" by the time I arrived here over 3 years ago, but their threads were a tremendous help to read nonetheless.

FH -

You said: "I don't expect you to understand that, but it is "offensive" to have a non-Christian attempt to tell a Christian that it is NOT important to simply "obey God.""

Nobody (certainly not I) is saying that you or anyone else should not tell another Christian to "obey God". And, frankly, I'm a little insulted for you to think that I wouldn't understand this. Regardless, my whole point is if you choose to say "one must obey God," my sugestion is to please also explain how, and not just by saying "you must walk away from your adulteress ways." Meaning, going back to your addict example ... it's one thing to tell the addict that what he's doing is wrong and that he should stop being an addict, but what's perhaps more valuable to that addict is how he can stop being an addict. The questions I had when I was deep in my A was how do I stop being an addict? What are the specific steps? What are the tried & true plans to overcome an A? Is there really hope for my M after an A?

Keep in mind that I posted my reply re: the 2X4's in Catherine's thread b/c what I read in your (and a few others') initial reply to Catherine. It seemed to me that these posts were focused on why her actions are wrong and that she should simply stop sinning. Frankly, I'm OK with that (to some extent), so long as the how is there in the same breath. For example, your follow-on message to her made sense to me. By suggesting a Christian counselor to her and having her H seek out an accountability partner, you gave them ideas of how to overcome their respective addictions; you gave them a plan of attack ... you gave them hope. THAT's what I'm referring to! The problem I've seen so often is that those plans and suggestions don't come out until the 2nd, 3rd, 4th reply posts. And, by that time, the WS is so humiliated and scared that he/she leaves us without giving things a chance. Having been around as long as you have, I know you've seen this ... a timid, "lurking" WS would finally get the nerve up to post, then read a lot of 2X4's to his/her post (b/c there is a lot of natural anger and resentment from our BS community) and then leave. Having been there myself, my heart goes out to those WS's b/c there is a reason why they sought out a website called "Marriage Builders." If they truly were out to "justify their affair" as Mortar Man suggested, I seriously doubt they would use a "Marriage Builder" forum to do so. There are plenty of "Why My A is the Best Darn Thing for Me and My Lover" forums out there for them to do so.

Please also keep in mind that it's much easier for a person to take judgements or opinions from someone he/she trusts. Meaning, if you think about all the people you would accept judgement or opinions from for the most important decisions in your life, who would they be? Probably someone whom you've gotten to know, have developed a trusting relationship and who's probably made some good decisions in the specific area(s) of concern that you've personally observed. With this, it's esp. hard for the WS's who come here to "swallow" a lot of judgement right from the start from a bunch of strangers. If we start by solely providing 2X4's, we don't give our WS's the opportunity to learn to trust us and thereby losing the ability to guide them toward the right path.

Lastly, I truly believe that 99% of the people who post here (regardless of the recipient) have great intentions. IMHO, it's comes down to execution (i.e. content of the message) that can prove the message to be truly "helpful."

BTW - Thanks for your replies and posts - I always learn something new (and good) every time I log on.

“To Aphelion's question - "If you knew it was wrong at all times and in all instances, and if you already knew God would judge you, why continue doing it?"

>I hate to throw the question back and ask the same thing - have you ever knowingly done anything wrong in your life? If so, why did you do it?”

Of course I have done wrong things in my life. Just yesterday I yelled at my son for not getting in the truck so we could get going on time. (I apologized to him a few minutes later.)

But, to the best of my recollection, and after an examination of my conscience, I know I have never intentionally hurt anyone over and over for years. Not even close. In particular, I have never used anyone else for sex, or for any EN’s, that belong inside my M. No matter how severe the temptation has been. And some have been severe.


“>Just because you elected to remain faithful to your wife doesn't make you a better or worse person than anyone else here. You simply made a decision that you can live with (period). I happen to believe that there are lots of WS's/FWS’s who are good, loving, productive members of our society. If that wasn't the case, why are there so many BS's willing to go through this much suffering to get them back? I refuse to believe it's solely because all BS's are so committed to their marriage vows and/or Christian beliefs. I happen to know there are plenty of committed BS's here who are from all different cultural, religious, political, socio-economic background that would prove otherwise.”

Just because I elected to remain faithful? Just BECAUSE? Aughhhhh!

I don’t even know where to begin. First, I could care less who is a better or worse person. Not a consideration to me. Don’t even know what that means, better or worse person.

I have indeed remained faithful to my promises, even through 10 years of her A. Through multiple DDays and false recoveries. Through ages of no EN’s of mine being met. Through numerous intentional insults and attacks.

I remain faithful because I still love her and I want to protect and support her. I also have the welfare of DS to consider. I have my conscience to live with. I have hope she can become a “better” person, maybe. But even all that is not enough. I do it because I made a promise to her, to myself, to both our families, to all other M’s and to God.

I believe in the end I will be held to a very high standard


JUST BECAUSE?

I want you to stay away from me, please. I am sorry, but I see no way to even talk to you about this.

I think it's a huge mistake to think that most WS "step over" their pre-defined moral boundaries. I think this is difficult, if not impossible for most of us to do.

So to argue that we are evil because we violated what should be clear pre-defined boundaries is pointless.

People get into all kinds of activities not because they violate their boundaries, but because they adjust them.

What could cause one to "adjust" one's morality? Any myriad of things. Maybe I felt abandoned by God. Maybe I felt like my so called "high moral framework" only screwed me in the end.

For whatever reason I rejected my moral framework, I was then faced with adopting a new one. The new one I tried on was one that said it was ok to fulfill my family duties while seeking emotional fulfillment elsewhere.

It is difficult to have integrity when you have little or no moral framework to work with.

I believe this is why you see so many A's starting after major life events. People's moral status quo has been upset. They are very vulnerable to bad behavior during these times. They don't know who they are and are desperately trying to define themselves.

I think it's whisper's argument that people like this are not so much evil as we were "lost".

It does no go to applied your own solid moral framework to them and expect them to easily recognize a problem. They are just as likely to tell you to kiss off as they are to listen.

I have reconstructed a moral framework that I believe is much more grounded than my previous one. It's that way because i know what can happen when I become too "puffed" up with my own righteousness. Absolutes like "I would never..." don't roll as easily off my tongue as they once did.

All but the most hardened WS need guidance back more than they need judgement.

Low

LowOrbit - Not to make light of your comments, but it brought a smile and chuckle to me as I read it because it reminded me of what has often been said here about a WS's "mental state" while in the fog of an affair. I don't know if it's been used much of late, but we used to call a WS in the fog as being "kidnapped by Aliens." Sort of like "invasion of the body snatchers," they may appear outwardly and physically to be our spouse, but mentally they've been "replaced" by an alien mentality and are NOT the person we knew and loved.

"They are just as likely to tell you to kiss off as they are to listen. ...All but the most hardened WS need guidance back more than they need judgement." It DOES cause a dilemna of sorts, doesn't it? For those wishing to "find their way back," it's not a straight line. Most often it's an "unwraveling" of the entangled affair, one step at a time, sometimes including the proverbial "two steps forward and one step backward." Guidance and advice can be provided, but only the individual can decide to implement the things necessary to end an affair and to recover a marriage. In the meantime, those who are willing to help have to "survive" being told to "kiss off" or simply stop posting and leave the person to their own devices. It isn't easy for any of us, be we will generally try to do our "best" in the effort department. And it's equally hard to know that "our best" may not be "good enough" in some cases.

God bless.

Ya know folks,

Something very important is being missed here. First, Christians are called to JUDGE ACTIONS not people. I am not a scholar, but I believe the Bible is very clear God judges people. It is their actions we can Judge and frankly I think the proper word would be "assess" rather than "judge". I am also not a Greek scholar.

But, Whisper has a point,and that is the purpose of this site is to heal and rebuild marriages, and actions no matter how well intentioned that inhibit that are counter productive. Further, she has expressed a concern that has been expressed before, and therefore this concern has merit and bares deep contemplation.

If someones deep convictions are getting in the way of achieving what clearly their religious convictions say is desired (strong, healthy marriage) some assessment of ones approach should be considered.

That does not mean that everyone can make everyone happy with their responses, and WS's are often extremely defensive when they first come here. It remains a subject of consideration if the defensive walls are best broached by empathy or by a frontal assault with the truth. It has been my observation that different posters require different approaches.

As most of you know I tend toward the direct and factual approach until the fog clears. I also know that I have hurt a few people that I did not intend to hurt. However, I don't think being deeply religious is a good reason for hurting someone who is hurting.

Folks, I think Whispers comments merit some deep reflection on the purpose of this site, and the purpose of our posts.

God Bless,

JL

JL, good post - I agree with you. I'm Christian, but at the same time I see & understand all the different viewpoints from the different posters on this thread... That's the reason why I haven't contributed to this thread yet. However, you have expressed exactly how I also think & feel about this whole issue. Thanks for sharing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Blessings,
Suzet

I know you didn't mean to make light, but I've always had a little trouble with this mindset.

It gives the BS permission to ignore the "alien's" thoughts and feelings. Allows you to treat them with great disrespect if too globally internalized.

I'm not saying that everything a WS says should be taken to heart. I am saying they it is best if you try to hear what they are really saying when they talk with you instead of blowing them off.

One thing I hated more than anything was to feel like my wife didn't really care about what I felt or had to say. I would try to share about my fears and frustrations and was told to "get over it". This is in the the past and she's no longer like that. But I have to caution the BS here that discounting your WS's fears and feelings can be a huge LB...not Plan A action.

Your spouse is still there. I like what you said about trying to unraval the mess. That's exactly what it felt like for me. I would undo one knot only to find that I had created a bigger one elsewhere. Finding my way back to moral solid ground was deathly serious business for me. It hurt me terribly to believe that I was all alone in that.

I agree with what others said about holding a firm position that certain actions and behaviors are wrong. It is this judgement we are biblically authorized to make. However, we are NOT to speculate on the state of another's heart and soul...this is reserved for God alone.

Some may say, "We should be 'fruit inspectors'". In such cases we see only the actions and not the heart behind them. What makes us think we're qualified to draw conclusions from that?

It's the difference between seeing people involved in bad behavior as bad people and seeing people involved in bad behavior as lost, hurting people.

If I had to default to a choice, I'd choose the latter. Even so, people involved in bad behavior must always bear accountability for their actions - regardless of their heart condition. But our attitude can make a huge difference in the way we approach restoring these people to fellowship with family and humanity.

It only in understanding our own frailty that we find the power to extend compassion to another.

ya know, JL, you really should be a bit more specific with you post. Either that, or I am being really dense tonight.

"If someones deep convictions are getting in the way of achieving what clearly their religious convictions say is desired (strong, healthy marriage) some assessment of ones approach should be considered."

Just what, exactly, did you have in mind here? "Deep convictions are NOT the sole prerogative of "religion." I could point to several members of MB who are decidedly non-religious, but who are also posting from their own "deep convictions."

Let's just go the one example of the futulity of attempting to recover a marriage WHILE the WS is still in the fog, perhaps even still actively pursuing the affair. Plan A would be the "recommended approach" for most BS's, but we also know that sometimes the "in your face and you are on your own" Plan B is needed because the "one-sided" changes of Plan A "don't register." At what point, if ever, should a "confrontation" be attempted? Remember, for ME, this issue of when, how, etc. has a lot to do with whether or not a given BS or WS claims to be a Christian. As such, the loving confrontation of sin is "required" by God...and the "intensity" of such confrontation starts low and increases in scope and intensity when earlier attempts are rejected and met with continued willful sin.

I recognize the potential dilemna of "sin" as a "measure," since some do not recognize God or the concept of "sin against God." So what would be the approach to a non-believer if not some type of loving confontation about "good and bad" behavior?"

I'm very confused by your post and really am looking for expanded clarification from you so I can better understand what it is you were trying to say.

God bless.

Low Orbit - I'm going to assume that you are talking about a WS AFTER they have decided to end their affair and attempt to recover their marriage. I would agree with you about "hearing" a WS during this time.

Prior to that, I wouldn't recommend believing or "hearing" a whole lot of what a WS says because it very often involves lies, rewriting of history, justfications for pursuing an affair, outright refusal to see their behavior as "wrong," etc.

God bless.

I hate to be a broken record, but we've not heard from Jaded nor Catherine in over 2 weeks. And, those are the only 2 I've had time to even respond to or follow. I just find it sad, very sad - not just for the WS's we lose, but also their BS's whose limited hope we just dashed. Darnit! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Again, I simply ask that we please focus more on how to guide a WS to recovery more so than just why they should recover.

Thanks,