I am kind of calling you out here.

1st things first........I think I must have inspired you in you choosing your login name........you never gave me a citation? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Second, I have to ask you what "plan" you are in? Not that I am a "plan" kind of guy, but you obviously are, so I have to ask you this question. You without fail give excellent advice to others here (see recent post to movingforward as example) yet you seem to me to be lost in an abyss of IN-action.

Your situation has NOT changed one iota since your plight began so many months ago. You have been relegated to seeing "hope" as your Wayward Husband agreeing to one day at one particular time, on a day that it is raining, and it is 78 degrees outside and that there is a full moon that night of "counseling". I still think deep down in the recesses of your mind you actualy believe that just getting your Wayward to talk to Sir Harley is going to "turn" a light on with him. It usually doesn't happen like that.

Sometimes I wonder if you secretely think "your situation is different" or that "your wayward" is different, and that these plans people do here don't really apply to you.

I am calling you out here because I think the treading water you have been doing all of this time is getting tiring. It has to be.....for you. Am I wrong? Am I totally out of left field here?

You give great advice to others, yet you don't want to follow any of it yourself.

I am just trying to nudge you out onto the passing lane. Get off the cruise control pedal girl, it is not getting you anywhere.

Your thoughts????

SOur........ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My brother fruit,

Just saw your post this morning. In a few minutes, I'm on my way to a hot, dusty day of GS camp with a whole mess of girls. I'm going to ponder what you've asked whilst I'm hanging out.

Get back to you later.

yours in pipdom,

GG

Is this as in GLADYS KNIGHT AND THE.....

BTW, not wanting to threadjack, BUT....

I still say it will be helpful to YOU to gain Steve Harley's assessment of your WW.... Also, just in one phone call, Steve can successfully intervene with him..

Although I also recognize that: "You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink"

Okay, I've been thinking about this today. Not well. I've been outside in a dusty forest, with 95 degree heat surrounded by 100 girls. It's challenging, it's dirty, it's fun. I don't think I have my thoughts as much in order as I'd like but I'll make a stab at it.

L-man, I didn't want you to think I'm avoiding the question. Actually, being called out and challenged is good. I AM in limbo. I freely acknowledge it. And I need to do something about it.

Perhaps I have placed too much faith in WH having a conversation with SH. WH will admit he is screwed up in his thinking. I think he needs a big kick in the pants. Also, WH's situation completely sucks. Think about doing an continual internship when you're 52 years old. He goes to work early, works late, has calls with the factory sometimes until 10 pm and goes in weekends. Lots of pressure, stress and responsiblity. I'm pretty sure OW doesn't like this schedule either. WH has no ability whatsoever to set boundaries with his work. I would like the independent perspective of SH.

I've been trying to give my kids a good summer. Next week, DD and I leave to visit friends in NY. It will be a healing and connecting time. DS has been gathering his energies for college. We've been doing a lot of stuff together. Stuff WH never wanted to do. When school starts, things will be different.

To myself, I feel like I've come a long ways. The habits of 30 years die hard. It's hard not to have the person that WH was in my life. I no longer cry every day. I have some bad days but not as frequently. I can keep a few thoughts in my head. My kids seem to be happy. I'm coming out of the hermit stage.

I'm not articulating this well. I feel as if I'm on the cusp of something big. Almost to the point where I can make the decision. To the point where it doesn't matter what WH thinks because I will have moved beyond him. Sometimes, I talk to him and he seems almost normal. I think he likes being alone and on the peripheries of our lives. He likes hands-off parenting. I think he'd almost prefer to be the deep-pockets uncle-type.

Sourguy, this isn't a very good answer. I'm not satisfied with it and I'm sure you won't be, either. Tear it apart. Rip off the veil of my illusions. I have more to ponder but didn't want you to think I'm avoiding your question.

More later.

p.s. Mimi, pips are seeds. Lemons have pips. I'm assuming grapeseeds can be called pips. I'll take a side of Gladys too.

Grape:

Pips or not...

I identify with the parts of YOU that are of the same GENERATION with me...

We "smart", energetic women who have been basically SAHMs, with hard-working Hs, who we have been married to our whole lives....

There are large parts of this that Lemonman, bless his sour little heart, will never be able to understand even if he really wanted to....

There are parts of this that Lemonman can help us with...

BUT parts he will never be able to understand...

LIKE: Not being able to sleep because MUSCLE MEMORY of 30 plus years is expecting another person in the bed with you....seeing HIM daily in the eyes/body/voice of your children...KEEPING THE SCHEDULE/BEING THE SOCIAL DIRECTOR for everybody..just because that's what I do, that's MY JOB, isn't it?.....

What if you were a self-supporting carreer woman instead of a SAHM...would this make a difference?



Lemonman is a smart and I think he CAN understand and help.

I always hate to hear a woman say that *a man* would never understand. If they strive to, I think they can. Part of counseling for me was learning to get behind my husbands eyes and vice versa. He can understand women if he wants to, so to say that he will never understand is to discredit him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Is this where you get your worth?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Susan:

I'm not a BLACK or WHITE type of thinker about things.

As I said before, THERE ARE PARTS OF THIS THAT LM CAN UNDERSTAND AND HELP US WITH! In my opinion, there are PARTS of this that he CANNOT understand.

I am willing to acknowledge that I cannot understand how to pee standing up. THAT IS NOT A BAD THING. That's just the way it is.....


I was not bashing LM. I was personally identifying the parts of GRAPEGIRL that I personally identify with...

I was not bashing you or anyone else...

BTW, I also obtain my worth from being a PROFESSIONAL. I've played both roles....

I'm beginning to love and embrace all parts of me..... I love the part that's been a SCHEDULER... I love the part that's a PROFESSIONAL.....

As hard as it may seem to believe, I have found a great deal of worth and value being the SAHM and social director. Think of it like this, I am the CEO of a large company in charge of product development and long term planning. I play a large part in supporting the infrastructure of our society. The cost/benefit ratio of what I add back into my community is priceless. Believe me, it is generally the SAHM that keep things afloat. Working parents always have the excuse they are working. Not always but often.

Motherhood is an undervalued, often maligned job. Especially if you stay at home with your kids. I have 3 excellent kids who have never been in trouble, will be running the world in a good way and be paying into all of our retirement funds. Kids can often be the forgotten element. For some folks, putting kids in daycare is easier than being a parent.

I have been a full time career woman. It was really hard on my family. Both WH and I can be very intense when we're working. Long hours, commutes, business trips. Seeing how we worked in an industry that does not value families or relationships, I'd say there was a better chance we'd have gotten divorced earlier. As a couple, we made the decision that I would stay home. I don't regret it for a minute.

Lemonman----where are you?

Just Saying..

I identify with everything you said in your last post... Could have been me saying it...

OK, I will leave it up to Lemonman to say whether or not he has walked in these shoes...

Better said by me, he probably can UNDERSTAND but cannot EMPATHIZE....

I was a SAHM for a long time.

I'm sorry. It was my issue and not yours. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I put all my eggs in my husbands emotional basket.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

One question, Susan. Since you had your eggs in H's basket, did you spend a lot of time with each other? Did he direct things? Did your social life come through him? Did he claim, during the A, that you'd drifted apart?

Fortunately or unfortunately, I've always been pretty good about taking care of myself. Especially since we had kids, I've been very active in what they do. I've made a lot of friends that way. I work hard at making time for myself and setting boundaries. I most certainly don't have the cleanest house on the block but most those people either have a cleaner or never read a book. I have a beautiful garden that also includes a fair amount of weeds. Dinner is NOT on the table at 5:30. For each of my babies, I took a "weaning" trip to reward myself for nursing them. Each trip got better and further away. Maybe it was conflict avoidance but H always went along with it.

I'm sorry you don't look back on your SAHM days as a fond memory.

AND WHERE THE HECK IS LEMONMAN! GEEZE, HE STARTS A THREAD AND THEN ABANDONS ME!

Grape:

Nice post. As an aside, I sometimes really wonder what people must think of me here. There is such a perception that I am a mean SOB with no compassion kicking the BS when they are down...LOL, . Why would I "tear you apart" from giving your answer to my understandbly tough and probably painful question. I guess I am partly responsible for that perception, but in all honesty I sometimes wonder why people confuse "tone" with "meaning". They shoot the messenger without understanding the message. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Alas, I am already getting off course...LOL.

I think what you wrote was great...you know why.....because it was real. It is how you feel and that is ok. However I think you are really setting yourself up for an extremely big dissapointment when Harley, despite his best efforts is not able to "wake up your wayward". I think your wayward is a long way from "waking up". He has shown little to no signs of "waking up" this entire time. You are a smart successful woman to have managed a household for all of these years and for raising good children who have goals to become productive members of the society..bravo to you. I know deep down inside you understand all of this.....your still in some denial, but that is ok. I understand completely.

I think Mimi is partially right in that I don't truly "know" what it is like to stand in your shoes, but I certainly feel that I am capable of understanding and have the insight to do the next best thing. I can imagine the extreme terror and anxiety that you feel to be forced to change this part of your life after so many years in a role as Mom, house leader, best friend, etc..., etc...I can understand. I know the rationlizations that you make every day in your mind "remembering" what your Wayward used to be, and longing, hoping and praying that he indeed gets delivered from the aliens....(sorry, I don't buy this theory more than a little bit... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). I do understand. I know you want this to be one horrible nightmare to be over. I know you feel sad sometimes and have to remind yourself why you are so sad. I know, I know. It becomes everything that you are, that you think, that you live.

I asked you these questions and called you out because I feel you have it inside of you to "take the next step", you just need a little shove.....from me an unlikely ally to you. I imagine that you are so afraid to "take any step" that might have you being forced to face your WH and that might lead to a more permanent form of separation....and divorce. I suspect your motto now is to do nothing (besides wait for the divine intervention by Harley), because with that, there is still technically hope. I understand. I know that many people put great stock in Steve Harley, but he is NOT GOD. He, in the end is just a human being with flaws and faults like the rest of us. He is not going to "make" your husband just wake up when and IF (a big if) he speaks to him. I am fearful you are putting an extraordinary amount of "faith" in this being the solution to your WH troubles. Yes, I know some may be offended by me saying this, but I know first hand the unrealistic expectations people can put on care givers (whether mental health, marital health or physical health). I will never forget the look of dissapointment one of my patients wife's had on her face when she realized that I was going through a divorce. It was like she could not understand how someone like "me" who had saved her husband's life who musy have been God like to do this could be so fallible that I was going through a divorce. I am getting off on a tangent here.

I worry about you because you always seem to be talking about your kids doing "this" or "that", or this graduation party to cook for, or this swim meet to go to....it is always about someone else. I wonder if you are just so afraid to put all of life's distractions aside to focus really on you. To see what it is that YOU need to do to be happy.....WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE THE WAYWARD IN YOUR LIFE...because ultimateley that is not going to be your decision. What it is that you need to change IN YOUR LIFE to not only survive...but propser. Your kids will soon have their own life's, and despite you being the world's greatest mom (and I mean this very respectfully), you WILL become secondary in their lives. You need to prepare for that day soon. There will come a day soon when their are no camps, or scouts, or plays to go to. This is not said as a bad thing, but just a realistic thing.

You always talk about your Wayward working all day and night and being in a life long "internship" with his job. I can relate <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. That is a decision he has made at an extremely GREAT expense. He will have to someday live with the fact that he has no relationship with his kids, and that his kids may hate him. They may not now, but they will grow to hate him. Your husband is the kind of guy who may be "woke up" someday, but it will probably take him nearly dying from a massive heart attack to do this. He is gonna fall someday....THAT IS NOT IN QUESTION....what I am hoping and praying for you is that you don't "fall" with him. Some here may say that it is "true love" to love someone for all of their faults but I disagree that there is nothing noble or admirable about "falling" with a person WHO DOES NOT WANT TO BE HELPED. YOur Wayward does not WANT to make boundaries with his job, or propser in a realitionship with his children. You, despite your best efforts can not "make" him do any of that. I think you are still trying to do that. How frustrating has that been for you?

Your IN-action waiting for your husband to "talk" to Steve Harley is just another rationalization to avoid doing something painful.......Plan B (if you want to try and save the marriage AND YOURSELF) or Plan D (if you so desire).

Mimi talks about the 30 year muscle memory and how much she "loves" her husband and all of that, but you know what.....WE ALL LOVE(D) our wayward spouses. We all remember the "good" in them. My muscle "memory" might not be 30 years, but that pain was still just as seering and breath taking all of the same to me. Deciding to enforce MY BOUNDARIES and protect myself was so much more painful than anyone will ever know. The easy thing for me would have been to try and "work it out" with an unrepentful wife to avoid the pain. At leats there would have been hope. I would have just lived this nightmare over a hundred times again. I will probably go to my grave never having really told my XW the intense, soul crushing pain she caused me. To this day, I still don't know how I did what I did in separating from my wife. I know you are scared, and still hanging on to hope (and that is still ok).

I just called you out specifically b/c you have been giving others some very good advice yet you are still on the sidelines "not in the game".

This was a long post for me, and I somehow lost my train of thought. I hope this is the catalyst FOR YOU TO DO SOMETHING...and not just for you to continue to WAIT for your Wayward to do something. As is always sadi in life.....If you continue to do what you are doing.....you will continue to get what you are getting!!!!

Best of luck.

Your friend,

Sour.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LM:

I am not one who sees you as having no compassion.

What a great, heartfelt post to, Grapegirl!

BTW, I wasn't saying that your pain wasn't any less than ours.

Again, I was mostly relating to Grapegirl.

Wrong of me to make any assumptions about you.....Sorry...

I saw your questions to me grapegirl, but I am going to defer my answer just now because I believe what Lemonman has said is so good.

Any discussion otherwise would be a threadjack.

Good post Lemonman. Very insightful.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

((( Grapegirl ))) I believe you will know when you are ready to take the next step. Perhaps this is like someone telling an alcoholic over and over to stop drinking. He knows he should stop. But he only will when he is ready.

I have surprised myself with my new-found courage !! I feel a lot lighter, and feel that I have left WH and his lying cheating ways behind. Never, ever have I felt this serious and calm about my situation. It just takes some of us a little longer. Not promising to be able to hold onto this serenity forever, but sure am going to try.

Great post Lemon !!! I myself, got alot out of it. thanks from me.

Carnation

I just want to concur a little about SH not being a magic pill...or even necessarily a pill that'll kick your WH into gear.

I am sure that SH is great for many people...and I know that I am glad that *I* spoke with him. But my husband talking to him...I think it pushed him away from me sooner than he would've gone if he'd never spoken to him. My husband needed individual counseling...not marriage counseling. SH couldn't really help my H with his internal troubles--that is not what SH is there for. SH can only "plant the seeds" for the marriage... The think with MB (and in some ways this is good, in others not) is that it doesn't really matter what you're feeling--fact is, you're married and should do everything you can to save your marriage before calling it quits. I think this is good--if both partners subscribe to that. But if one partner is not sure they even want to try...shrug...I don't think MB counseling is necessarily the way to go. Of course it also depends on the type of personality one has.

My H talked with SH twice. That second time, it was basically said that the next call was going to be focusing on a plan towards working on things. That was too much for my H and he decided to stop the counseling. He didn't know if he wanted to work on things and he wasn't willing to try to do so if he wasn't sure he *wanted* to. so when he quit talking with SH, that's when I plan B'd and we've barely spoken since and he has begun to get the divorce papers together.

Sorry if this was longer than it should've been. I just wanted to concur with LM that counseling isn't necessarily THE answer. Be careful of thinking, "if he would only talk to SH."

GG,

It's not like SH has 100% victory, no one does.

I posted to you a long time ago about you being the be all and end all of your relationship. That you did all, made all decisions, and somehow you WS got left out of that equation.

I say time to set some boundaries, or do the 180.

Lemonman, I respect you. You are not sourmale, you are lemonade. LOL.

GG, what ARE you gonna do? Plan B is not always the option, but a 180 might help.

Concerned. And of course, praying for you and your healthy decisions.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

My bias has been that GRAPE'S WH and marital pattern has sounded so much like mine- H in MLC, workaholic, estranged from the children. My FWH did profit from sessions from Steve H. The sessions were helpful but certainly not the answer or cure for him. I had to do PLAN A and PLAN B as well, mainly for my own sake. I have just suggested this as a part of the package. Steve's assessment of WH might prove helpful to GRAPE in determining her PLAN OF ACTION. Steve H. was most helpful to me in that regard.

Agreed- that Grape needs to decide on A PLAN for herself....

WOW! First of all, I'd like you to know that Lemonman's post has caused me to eat almost an entire box of Samoa Girl Scout cookies. Honest, I'm generally not a compulsive eater. But they were chocolate-y, caramel-y, coconut-y and chilling in the fridge. Every time I'd run into an unpleasant, unfaced truth in L-man's post, I'd pop out of my chair, run to the fridge and grab another cookie. You can imagine how many times I popped up. I finally forced myself to read it outloud to the end. Amazing.

The post hits me on a strange day. Last night, DD was at a camp overnight. While just about everybody expected me to stay with her, I declined. Instead, I planned an evening of karaoke and dancing with some friends. We hit a latino nightclub and a couple biker bars. This is completely out of character for me. (LOL) It's kind of funny when one's teenage son calls at 1 am to find out where you are. Tonight, DD is at another friend's house for the night and DS has plans with his GF. I've made a couple calls to friends but probably will do something by myself.

(break in the action for the phone...)

WH just called about meeting us tomorrow for a charity dog wash at our local brewery. Oh course, he's sitting on their patio right now "alone" drinking a brew but is very defensive about why I wouldn't be happy that he wouldn't ask me to join him.

The truth that I do not want to face up to is that this marriage is through. He has no intention of ever being more than a "wallet" and peripherial member of this family. He wants limited involvement on his terms. He wants the space to do his work and "whatever". To be alone and unattached. Like the batchelor uncle who turns up for Christmas dinner with nice presents but can't be depended upon.

I think there is something missing in this man. He has never truly learned to be a husband or a parent. He is unable to connect. He is an emotional taker not a giver. He is an enigma. A shadow. He's the man who at 52 will still put his hands over his ears to not hear something I have to say. I'd really like to duke things out with this man. I'd like to have a real fight, a fair fight that he does not run away from. Reverse babble does not work on this man.

I want to deny that anything has ever been bad in our marriage. I'd like to say we're the perfect family with the good kids and the nice house. Well, yeah we are. The problem is that there no husband, no dad in this picture. Never, ever has been. We cut him a lot of slack in the 15 years of cranky, no mobility pain before he had his hip replacements. Somehow in the past 6 years, he never came out of cripple mode. We're just little compartments in his waffle. If one asks him for something directly and he feels like it, he'll do it. Especially if it's a way of avoiding conflict.

Maybe he's felt trapped in this marriage. Maybe he really doesn't want his kids around unless it's something that benefits him. Maybe the energy expended to be a part of this family is too much. I think I'd understand it a little better if he wanted to see the kids but not me. As it is, he calls me to do things but NOT the kids. If it's something to deal with business, he can deal with it. We've always been a good team that way. We can talk about our rental property. We can talk about a new car and the kids in school. We cannot talk about married men not having girlfriends or distancing themselves from their families. Apparently, in his mind, that's normal. The mixed messages drive me nuts.

I do do a lot of nice things for myself that are not family related. I get facials and nice haircuts. I go to MY dance class every week. Next week, DD and I are going to NY to visit friends for 10 days. For my Saturday spree, I'm going to the mall to find a beautiful yet functional sundress or two to wear on the trip.

I am looking for a job. I'm negotiating with WH for a new car. I deserve better. I deserve the freedom of not having my emotions played with. Right now, I want to get through the summer. Then, honestly, I will hit Plan B hard.

Keep on my tail Sour Male. When I talk like this Mimi yells at me for giving up and not following MB principals. Maybe SH can't help. Maybe it's just a straw I'm grabbing at to avoid the inevitable. At that point, I think I will have earned my way out of this marriage.

Grapegirl,

If you have not spoken to SH but were planning to, I do encourage that. He did help *me* and if I had more money, I'd talk to him a couple more times as my marriage ends.

And yes, if nothing else....I earned my way out of this marriage and damn, it feels good to say that! It...ahem...also gives me a bit of superior feeling over my husband that may not actually be healthy, but damn, that feels good too.

No one here knows the future of your marriage, grapegirl, and I do not want to discourage you from doing what you feel you have to do. I think you have an overall good picture of things.

I know this..that even when one knows the marriage is 100% over and there's no chance of reconciliation--it's still hard to let go because then you know for SURE it's over and for SURE there's no chance. If you've felt responsible for working towards recovery, it's hard to give up that up. One may feel a little responsible for the ending---I know that I have, even though in my head that is far from the truth.