discuss... it's got to be interesting!

This comes in reaction to what you said:



This is definitely true for me...

WOW... You said this OUT LOUD!

I'm still working on a response that I can put into words.

I'm amazed at how accepting you are of this in yourself...

I am able to say that I have certainly not viewed this as being a "good" thing.....

Mimi ... I should have said "I KNOW my force can overpower sometimes"

I have been told this is so by very up-close-and-personal reliable sources <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LOL ... (Mr. Pep)

What?!??!?!?!?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Color me clueless

WNB

[color:"white"] OK coloring clueless now [/color].... we're bringing this from another thread so as not to hijack thundernlighting's thread

The underlying issue here is FEAR OF CONFLICT. Remember how you helped me with being COURAGEOUS(my word) to "Duke" (your word) it out.

It's been either FIGHT or FLIGHT for me. When I say this, I mean this literally. My style was either I scream, yell, break a few plates,etc. OR I have nothing to do with you or the issue. Mr. MIMI hated this...still does... Most often, I would do the latter and totally disregard his wants and needs... I would just go ahead and do what I wanted to do. Come to think of it, how's that for PERSONAL POWER... This was my response rather than really dealing with issues/conflicts with him.

So right now, in my PERSONAL RECOVERY, I'm working on finding the balance between the FIGHT AND THE FLIGHT. It struck me how you acknowledged and accepted your POWERFULNESS. I'm trying to find out how to deal with mine.

Interesting that you mentioned MR. PEP. You see, now I realize that my H likes/loves/admires ME. If you have been reading my posts to MILKSHAKE, he fell in love with me again when I gained his RESPECT. Rather than running away from him or fignting him, I began to be assertive with him and to evidence a love for myself. I began to DUKE it out. I've started doing that with my YS now and he also treats me better....

So what am I saying here? PERSONAL POWER IS OK? A lesson that I should have learned a long time ago....

There's more to say but I'll stop here for awhile....

Oh my, I'm remembering Steve Harley telling me: "You've got to learn to EMBRACE conflict". I'm finally at a point where I can grasp what he was saying to me....

"embrace conflict"

neat!

Ok- another light bulb...

I guess it's not attractive when avoiding conflict:

Being seen and not heard
Being sweet as pie
Not letting yourself go.....

YUK!

Very very deep..... A lot to learn from.

Mimi, Pep,

May I barg in here for a moment? I find this thread just wonderful for a reason that perhaps neither of you appreciate.

Pep: I have always loved your posts and your advice because...I agree with it. People don't seem to ever understand the power they have to affect their own lives and those around them. I think you do.

As you know I often tell women in particular that they have enormous power in a marriage, and yet... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Mimi:

I think you and Pep are are about to become best buds <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> because you are finally seeing what she is talking about. You do control many things in your marriage and family and you can do it in very important ways.

I have been thinking of something a few weeks now, and with your endulgence I would like to talk about it here for BOTH of your consideration.

I know about POWER: physical, economic, social, hiring and firing, etc. I was trained to use it and I do in my work. But, it occured to me that often the use of power is not what people think.

Let's say your H came to you with something that you were doing that concerned him. He was worried, he was not happy, and he was doing his best to present it to you with the minimum of harm.

Now in the spirit of the POJA you would ask him "Honey what do you want me to do, quit this position, job, interaction, whatever??? The problem is he very likely does not want to seem like he is controling you and will say something "like ... well I am just concerned and I am not sure what I want you to do."

We see this sort of thing on this site all of the time. Here is my observation a POWERFUL person realizes that the spouse is deeply concerned for whatever the reason and the POWERFUL person realizes it is their job to address this NOT throw it back into the hands of the person bringing it forward. If you love them you END their suffering, and you stop what is bothering them, that is POWER.

You might argue well perhaps the POJA would help,and yes it might and often does IF the person making the complaint has a solution. But what is missed is that a POWERFUL person has realized that the solution is to end the anxiety, the suffering, the method of doing that can be POJA'd, but the decision has been made.

I know this seems odd in the context to of this thread, but I wanted Pep's comments on it, and given what Mimi has said and finally faced and discussed on this thread I would like her comments as well.

POWER means the ability to protect as much as it means the ability to destroy or coherce (sp), or influence. So the options are not fight or flight, if you have power, you have many options and most people have a lot more power in their relationships than they ever imagine. It is just a question of are they going to use it or not, and if they do are they going to help or cause pain?

Just some off the wall thoughts, but I would like your comments. They will affect how I discuss things with a few posters on this site.

God Bless,

JL

I agree ... there is a feminine disconnect to personal power and I am not sure why...


My immediate connecting thought is .... motherhood ... can you imagine a more powerful influence in the world than motherhood?


To me, JL, this is a matter of integrity.

I think it is a form of integrity to accept the power over one's life.

This is simply a habit Mimi, and probably something you can easily unlearn if you make the decision to unlearn it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps the disconnect is a matter of conditioning.

Would you consider it a compliment if I called you a "handsome" woman?

That is usually an adjective applied to a male. I guess the female connotation would be not really ugly, but rather plain. Why? How about well-groomed?

It seems as if society gives us pictures of two women through mass media, etc. The servant and the tyrant.

But a powerful woman could do EITHER.

I have been a "fly on the wall" in numerous SAHM conversations. Heard pros and cons to both. As the child bearing gender, you gals get a bum rap a lot. No matter the path you choose, work or mom, you are going to engender disrespectful judgements from about half your fellow gender.

I (male) have it easy. I bring home the bacon and am respected for it. Simple.

Perhaps it is because you (females) CAN be both things that it is harder to isolate what it means to be POWERFUL in a personal level. You refine it and master it in your chosen path, then BAM someone comes along who disdains the current choice. Could shake confidence. Cannot imagine the second guessing you gals go through on this issue alone.

I don't know. I like a strong, powerful woman. As in confident and self-assured.

NCW

Well.... I suspect that the fight or flight response is a little more than habit. I agree it can be unlearned. Or really that it can be transformed.

If you're in the middle of a fight-or-flight, then you're angry. And underneath that anger, you're scared and feeling hurt. You're feeling vulnerable, and in a way that doesn't create those cozy warm feelings, either. You're feeling vulnerable and terrified of attack. That "the saber tooth tiger is out to get me" feeling.

The third option is tough: To recognize in that moment that you are highly valued, and that Mr. Mimi is not a saber tooth tiger considering you for a mid-morning snack.

It's respectful non-doormathood.

And the first step is to remember, in that fight-or-flight moment, that you're worthy of love and respect and compassion and all that other good stuff.

Three years ago I never got there. Didn't know I needed to; just knew I was in a whole lot of pain.

Two years ago I got there. After living in pain to the point of being suicidal, losing my marriage, and nearly losing my kid.

Last year it would take me a couple of days to get there. And I learned to remain still and silent and present until I did. Hurt like heck, but it got me there.

This year, it takes me between 3 and 12 hours to get there, with variations depending on the circumstances.

I still try very hard not to respond in any way until I can get to remembering that I am valuable, and to be centered in it. The uncentered responses are not nearly as productive as the centered ones.


Oh, and, Hi JL! Hope you're well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

fight or flight

I have learned/taught biofeedback techniques over the past 9 years because I "had to" (in order to conduct some of the pain management things I do at work)

I have taught thermal biofeedback (hand warming) to some people who were crazy as bedbugs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> as well as working with normal neurotics ( the rest of us ~LOL~ )

The "F or F" response is a survival instinct hardwired to get our butts to a safe place out of danger ... where we get into trouble is when we fly into "F or F" when there is no actual threat or danger but a perceived threat ... a sort of "what if" threat.

Basically, we make ourselves crazy with "what if" thoughts that loop around and around ...

So Mimi ... I use biofeedback to stop myself from falling into the "F or F" response inappropriately ... It is a sort of mental STOP sign ... a pause for breathing ... a clearing out of unnecessary anxiety .... and then it is much simplier to listen receptively when the anxiety has been chemically removed BY ME using biofeedbck.

I don't think I have ever talked about this before on MB...

Hey JJ,

Good to hear from you. Now that you and NC are also here let's take this a bit further. NC mentioned using the word "handsome" to describe a woman. That triggered something with me because I actually use that term to describe my W physically. NOt as a put down, but to distinguish her looks from those seen in the media, which she is not like.

However, Pep is an example of what I am talking about and Mimi responded to it. She exudes power by the very questions she asks, how she phrases things. More blunt, more to the point, more "let's get this thing done". Yup, more male.

So the power people have is in the "presentation" of their views, their help, their understanding of things right? I do have a point here, but I want to entice more comments and observations.

I will say having met JustJ in person, she impresses me as a person of great internal power. I often have a hard time reconcilling how she has felt in her journey with the woman I know her to be. I know her advice reflects this power.

I have not had the pleasure of meeting Pep but someday when I come down to hassle 2Long perhaps we can meet. But, the issue of power is of interest to me, because it seems when I am talking with women especially on this site, they seem to be so unaware of how to communicate what clearly they have in their relationship. It as if they are afraid of it.

Yet, clearly in the example I gave the W had the power to end the anxiety by acknowledging what he said and telling him she would change the situation...period end of story. But, this does not happen. Instead people negotiate something that requires no negotiation.

I am wandering a bit, because several thoughts are percolating in my mind about this issue of power, and the power of commuications. They are hooked together. What I am seeking is a better way of expressing HOW they are hooked together, especially for women trying to address issues with their H.

Being a male I feel women have enormous power, but clearly they don't think that way.

More thoughts, lead me out of the "fog". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

now I am waiting to hear more about this ...

I can relate to that. This thread is very enlightening and I love the power Pep has in her questions and responses.

Pep,

I said this for a reason. Consider the example I gave before. If the woman loves this man and wants to protect him, there is nothing to negotiate, she ends the actions that have led him to express his fears and pain at what she is doing.

I will say that I find it hard and in fact perhaps I should say that I don't say "negotiate the end of the affair". I understand what Harley is saying and the tone he wants to set in the relationship, but frankly an Affair is not a negotiable thing for most people. It should not exist.

What needs to be negotiated are the conditions of the marriage before the affair. I realize the world is not that simple but there are some simple truths and one is guilding the lilly to ignore them, right?

JL

Listening...

If the man expresses his fears, it is our job to use our power and make him feel secure...erase his fears.

Instead of asking "now why do you feel that way" and then trying to negotiate with him by saying he shouldn't feel that way?

Is this what you are getting at?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />