Mimi,

I really like Pep's answer. It reminds me of a Moody Blues Album "A Question of Balance". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You said a few things that I think I can comment on. And it leads to why I bargged into this thread. Power is at least partly perception. I offered the example because it exmplifies a subtle but important aspect of the power between a loving couple. Several asked what if?... So let me put a finer point on this example.

Let's say your H is worried about you spending too much time with a particular male work associate. Let's say you and your friends from work go out every Fri. and the associate is there and you two seem sort of friendly even when the H is with you. So he brings it to your attention.

What do you do? Well, you can talk about it, discuss ways to set aside his concerns, assure him nothing is going on, etc. Nothing wrong with that. However, you have the POWER to end his concerns and rather than throw it in his lap and say "what do you want me to do", you could realize that rightly or wrongly he is concerned about losing you, and you have the POWER to stop it by simply NOT associating with the co-worker or perhaps going to the Fri night events unless you are on H's arm.

It is my observation when someone comes to you and expresses a concern they are HANDING you the power to change things. Just as when I barged into this thread, I am effectively saying: "I am confused, I am sorting out ideas, and I need HELP." I have handed over in the power to someone else to educate me.

Do you see why I asked about POWER. It is subtle, it as Susan said about listening, it is about action, comfort, decisions (who makes them, and who pays attention to them). It is a constant ebb and flow in a marriage.

If you really look at Pep's responses to people, she is handing them the power to look at themselves by her phrasing of the questions, yet many are taken aback by the spareness of her wording. Each of us has our style.

So let's talk about your questions to me directly. You asked
You could say it that way. I would say his response is handing you the power to direct the resolution of this. You see once you realize you have power "fight or flight" simply is NOT your only option. Because with power you can redirect, stop, or enhance any action you choose to. His new way of interacting is telling you that "you have options" hence you have power.

Oddly in my mind one of the signs of a truely strong person is someone who can give away power. They are strong enough to allow other people to make decisions knowing they can handle whatever the decisions are. Who seems the strongest, well it depends on how you look at things doesn't it.

I have a friend who has a beautiful and dynamic W and she totally dominates any scene the two of them are in: cocktail party, fundraisers, committee's whatever. You would just KNOW that she had this guy wrapped around her finger, and ...she does. But, if you watched carefully, and listened carefully, HE has power in the relationship. If you ask her a question and she knows the answer or is sure of where she wants something to go, you get HER answer right NOW. However,if she is a bit uncertain, she ALWAYS differs to her H. She NEVER says anything that could be construed as negative about her H. There is a balance there that at first blush one would not see.


I have seen this many times for many years in many situations with couples. My own parents exhibited this when my father was alive. THey were constantly changing roles and their talents and abilities, and yet if someone just met them or only knew them for a few years they gave the impression that my Father ran the show when it came to how the family did things...very traditional, very military, very cut and dried. In social situation it would appear that my mother was the more skilled and ran the show. In reality it was far from this. My father was the one that loved poetry and could read people like a book,and it was my mother who was the more unbending about family situations. When my fathers health started to fail, they completely switched roles with regard to raising my youngest sibling.

It was amazing to watch and every educational. That is why the issue of power in a relationship interests me, and I think it is often ignored hence the posters on this site.

It is very subtle.


My short answer to this one is fear. Which can lead to or be caused by lack of trust.


Ah the fantasy worlds aren't they wonderful? But when reality set in he came back didn't he? He is changed though isn't he? AS you said he seems to be willing to share power, probably because he may feel he did not handle it well, and also because you were more powerful than he thought, but... you may well have done something very strange. You may have used your power to make him pay for this affair more wisely and gently than he ever imagined. I am not saying you did not give him "what for", but...something has changed hasn't it Mimi?

Look at it closely, that is what I am saying. You have the power to change many things in the relationship.


It could be about that. It could about both of you needing to be fed by attention. It could be fear that one or the other is getting attention from the opposite sex. It could be many things. But, my bet is that you both have strengths and weakness, and you fear someone using your weaknesses, so you use your power to DEFEND, rather than enhance your life.

You see to me the example I started with was a issue of enhancement. Of the W saying "Don't worry, I've got you covered and I will do my best to ease your fears." If she can do that we are talking real POWER in my mind, but is it in others minds? Hence my questions to everyone.

Ever heard the saying that LOVE IS POWER. Sounds sort of new age doesn't, although perhaps new age is now OLD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But, then think about your wedding vows and the promise to love someone basically no matter what. That is power in my mind. "I feel I am strong enough to endure anything to protect you." That is what it says to me. It is not about feelings but promises and the exchange of power to let someone else help you, take care of you, and for you to do the same with them.

Do you see where I am going? I am working on some ideas that have to do with this issue of love and what the heck people mean or think they mean. "I love you but I am not in love with you." is a very common phrase. One can take the Greeks approach that there are various kinds of love. But, in the modern times where the concepts of personal power, and independence are more common concepts perhaps discribing love as POWER and describing a healthy relationship in terms of POWER might make more sense IF one can describe what POWER is.

I will admit I have little use for the woman's movement,not because some of their goals are not good, but because they never acknowledged that women always had power in a marriage although it was NOT obvious. Further, women did have the vote long before the suffarage movement, just not in every state. Yet when they did get the vote everywhere, the voting patterns did not change, why? I believe it was because men voted as they were "told to", "agreed to", or "were coherced to" by their W's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> So when women started to vote little changed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hence my comment to people that they have more power than they realize and less control than they realize in a marriage.

Must go, and get back to writing this darned proposal. I hope I have helped you, to think a bit more, if not helped you solve your issues.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

Thanks to you, My Brother. I don't think I have the words to really tell you how closely you have come to capturing the essence of many of my issues....

I was brought up hanging around my grandparents..I absolutely adored my Grandmother. More and more each day I am learning how I am like her. She was a POWERFUL woman. (I can hardly type this, I am so filled with emotion.) She came from a poor family, the only one in her family who was educated. She died about a year ago at the age of 92 so back in her days to have a college education was a big deal. She washed one dress every day and walked to school to attend a teachers' college.

Self-esteem was not a problem for her. She exuded her POWER and felt OK about it. Guess what, though.? Who had the POWER, in her view, in her relationship with my Grandfather. He did. Sounds like the couple you talked about. They were married for 71 years when he passed away. When we finally couldn't keep her at home anymore, my GF died of a "broken heart". He would cry for her and look for her. It was sad. They are now together again dancing and having fun together in heaven.

You say my H has changed. You say that my H now is able to share his power with me. So interesting! He used to shake his head about my GF. My H used to say: "How can he stand being "bossed" my your GM?" I couldn't understand this because I knew that my GM wasn't "really in charge". The way it was is that they had their own special dance: She had her strengths and weaknesses and he had is.. They COMPLEMENTED each other. TWO WHOLES coming together to make a GIANT ONE!!

Now, my H sees me as being like my GM-even said this after I read PROVERBS 31 at her funeral and talked about THE POWER OF LOVE. THE POWER OF LOVE led my H back home. The power of love was able to forgive him and to understand and to help direct him down the right paths despite all of his faults... and now he has come to WELCOME AND EMBRACE the power of the love I have for him. The FOW struggled to convince him that I didn't love him like she did. He acknowledges struggling with that and was never able to buy her viewpoint.

YOU ARE SO RIGHT ON ABOUT THIS!!!

My message as you said JL:


Endure anything.... EVEN YOUR SELF-DESTRUCTIVE AFFAIR

Protect you.... EVEN FROM YOUR OWN PERSONAL DEMONS

I also can trust that he will now to the same for me..so there is less need for FIGHT OR FLIGHT which I also need to speak more about later.....

THANKS SO MUCH, JL....

I think there is power in letting go as well.

Just Learning, excellent post! (as always <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Thanks!

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pep, when you say:


Do you mean in the same way as:


Are you referring to when you let go and give someone else the power and opportunity to change things?

Susan

Power to enhance ... kewl! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Pep,

Yup, you are so right. You bring up something that really has to do with my children and sports. All of my kids were good HS athletes both boys and the girl. One of the boys played college football and the girl played college basketball. The youngest has decided he does not want to play college sports.

I and my W were very active in the HS and especially sports. I once was talking with a very discouraged parent about her childs placement on a team and whether he should continue or not. I expressed to her, that one of things sports can teach you is to really determine when enough is enough. When reality says that you simply are not lucky enough to have the right body for the sport. It happens to all but a few all of the way up.

There is power in knowing you can look at a situation, and without emotion clouding your view make a realistic decision about your future (even if the decions evokes strong emotions). I wanted my kids to learn that. I think they all have because each of them have exercised it at different points and times and seem accepting of their realities.

It was all I could hope they would learn from playing sports and that was when to stay and when to go and know how to properly make such a decision.

As usual you are so right Pep.

God Bless,

JL

not exactly but sort of

I was thinking more in the way of letting go the struggle for control ... thinking about how so many BS blow their chances at recovering their marriage by HOLDING ON rather than letting go of their WS, releasing ... which is very powerful.

Like how we handled Louie Suz ... specifically is on my mind ... when we let go of trying to manage his choices ... our power over our own lives increased tremendously. And the power over HIS life was rightfully his ... and he did what he did and felt what he felt only because we ~let go~ ... *tears of gratitude*

PEP:

I'm coming back to you when I have more time on the FIGHT OR FLIGHT..

But about the POWER OF LETTING GO...

I have had to stop and make sure it's not FLIGHT...

Like my mother, you among others encouraged me towards healing that R...

It took the POWER OF LOVE FOR MYSELF to LET GO of that....

Also I LET GO of my H for awhile out of love for him..

A part of me knew he had to see what it was REALLY like out there......

I'm following you now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks.

TGA,

I am sorry I did not address your question, but I will try to now. You said
Darned you must be one smart lady, if this is the first time I have confused you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Either that or you understand me better than I do myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Perhaps it is both.



Well, I picked something simple so I could understand it. First I will assume that the W's understanding of her H's feelings are correct and not a DJ. But, if they are a DJ, then interaction is definitely required to sort that out first.

If it is not a DJ, then the W must ask HERSELF why she does what she is doing? What she gets out of it? And is it at H's expense? Clearly it is at H's expense as he has expressed some concern.

So I would take the tactic that Susan mentioned, and I would validate his concern (whether it is well founded or not). I would then exercise my power to change things and tell him things will change in this regard, ie he will NOT feel threatened again. Now, you can offer him a variety of changes you are willing to make,but the power was in deciding to address his feelings and end them. That is where you realize you have the power.

Now for the negotiations. One is simply negotiating the method of removing his concern, and it might be that you wear a shawl over that "see through blouse", or that you express your free spirit in situations where his family is not present, or workers or... Or that perhaps he is seeing things incorrectly and a good honest talk will help coupled with your willing to wear a velvet glove over that fist of steel. THe point is you have the power to stop his concerns and by agreeing to do it, you accept that power. The method of doing it can be negotiated, but the goal is not. You are strong enough to protect him and you are willing to do it.

I don't know where you are from but the template that comes to MY mind is a sterotypical "southern woman" all soft and mushy, very polite, well ya know, but they always get their men to do what they want. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> You see if H wants someone that appears to be non-competitive or more unassertive, you may need to ask what he needs to make him feel comfortable and it may not really be what YOU think.

However, the power is IN YOUR decision to accept his concerns and act on them. Now all that is being discussed is how best to do this. It is no longer a power struggle.

REmember he has power to, and part of that power requires him to protect you as well, it is a two way street.

My original point was the issue of handing the "hot potato" back and forth instead of using your power to address the issue at hand.

WEll, have I helped at all? I brought this up becuase it is a messy issue. JustJ's posts for example illustrate that quite well. To the outsider who has the power can seem very confusing. To the insider it is clearer or it should be.

Powerful people set their goals and get there. And in a marriage one of the goals is that the spouse is protected and secure. Not an easy one to accomplish, but only you have the power to accomplish it. Notice I did not say Happy, because I do believe the deepest levels of happiness come from within.

Must go. Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Talking about me again, are you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

My H and I were around another MB earlier in the year and later she made this comment to me: "you beam when you look at him while he is talking to you". This is something we were not aware of. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

So....don't forget the *soft smile* that we give them. The little twinkle in our eyes. That is powerful and makes him feel secure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Susam

Hi JL.

I like your stuff.

Here's something I wonder, though. When you talk about having the power to address a husband's concerns, you speak truly. However, I'm thinking you miss half (or more?) of the interaction and the requirements.

If I choose to act on a concern of my husband's, there is a whole range of possibilities.

Many of those possibilities are really, really bad for our marriage because I won't be enthusiastic about them. I will be annoyed as heck, in fact.

Those possibilities are rotten for our marriage and for me because resentment is a real love-killer.

And if my husband is in a yucky negative state, then he has work to do. If it's an easy thing that he wants, and it's easy for me to change, and I change it, it probably doesn't build a residue of negativity.

But....

Let's say he had a bad day at work.

Let's say he just found out that his mom is sick.

Let's say that our dog just threw up on his shoes.

Let's say that he looks, in fact, like Mr. Incredible did when he almost threw the car over the house.

A really, really bad day.

And I show up and I say, "Hi honey! We're having meatloaf for supper."

And his response is, "I HATE MEATLOAF. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT MEATLOAF IS THE. WORST. THING. I'VE EVER EATEN????"

Now.

Not only is my entire bag of tricks probably not going to be useful in finding a way for him to be enthusiastic about supper, but it's unlikely that he and I are going to be able to find anything useful to say to each other in that circumstance.

No matter what I say, very little is going to help him work through his rotten mood completely. I can't "fix" that for him. It's his.

Oh, sure, I can do something that may help to break the mood. But in the fullness of reality, there is no one else who can change his moods. I can't reach in and rearrange the chemical cocktail his body is feeding him today.

So... Though I take full responsibility for my actions and my part -- my husband has to do the same. If he does not, then any attempt at POJA would simply become him manipulating the system for his own benefit. Not okay, that.

And yes, I've seen it happen. It's ugly.

This is easy as pie J.

"OK. Well, I'm hungry. I'm going to enjoy the meatloaf myself. After I've eaten, let me know if you want to spend some time together. When you are ready to talk about your day, I'm here for you."

Not hard at all.... men are easy

There is so much here on this topic for ME...and I know now for others....

Taking a look here at FIGHT OR FLIGHT

I thought I was all alone in this and so did you, TGA...

TGA you said:



TGA:

I thought MY situation was EXTREME! You said it all. This is EXACTLY what happens to me in my FIGHT OR FLIGHT moment.... I am a child again facing monsters, fearing for my life and the life of those around me. Somebody around here might get killed. I went further though and tried to become the RESCUER and PEACEMAKER in the household...

It's hard to explain for those who don't feel the intensity and terror of this.

So, PEP, this is why it is so HARD,has seemed almost impossible at times, to DUKE it out...

I don't think that I fear conflict as much as I do ANGER. I would go so far as to say that I am anger phobic. Childhood memories of RAGEFUL parents come rushing in. These are memories of parents rageful at me, rageful at each other, scary enough to kill me or themselves. So my job was to try to be as good as possible-never worked, of course. They would find something to rage at me about. My job was to be the PEACEMAKER when they were raging at each other, the IC to my mother, waiting up at night for when he comes home so I could breakup their arguments. YOU SEE THE PICTURE....

So fast forward to now. My H is MAD at me OR I'm MAD at my H. Heck, anyone is MAD at me or I'm MAD at anyone... It doesn't matter... MAD almost immediately results in PANIC. There is no middle ground in this panic response. I've found myself in the pattern of needing to ESCAPE the ANGER or having the URGE to EXPLODE. FIGHT OR FLIGHT..

I agree with you PEP that this is a habit that can be unlearned. I have been already using the techniques you suggested of anxiety reduction through different techniques such as thought stoppage. It's so much easier to stick to old behavioral patterns, almost addictively, rather than to work on growth. Growth means doing the work of hanging in there and actually learning something new. Growth means hanging in there and FACING THE CONFLICT rather than running away from it. What I figured out is that CONFLICT IS OK AND NEEDS TO BE EMBRACED IN ORDER TO GAIN PERSONAL GROWTH. However, in order to face conflict, one has to look anger in the face. The anger is the scary part.

JL

I apologise for thread-jacking, but I'm hoping you may be able to help me with a problem that has existed for many years, and which I think this thread is very close to. I really am very unsure what to do with my Power right now!

You said:
To take a step back from that, how does the power thing work if the man is unable to express or even acknowledge his concerns, so that the problem can never be put on the agenda and dealt with?

In my example, I had the man stating what was worrying him, because that was the easiest way to frame the question. In real life, the problem that H and I have had for twenty years is that he is almost entirely unable to tell me what he feels about anything. In fact, he seems unable to get in touch with his own feelings at all - the inability to express them is a natural outcome of not knowing what they are in the first place! He comes, I should add, from a family where feelings must never EVER be exposed, even to the self.

Of course, he does have feelings, even if he is unable to recognise them. He has insecurities and fears and worries, and many of those feelings are connected to me. But because he avoids 'seeing' them, they emerge in strange ways - as general irritation, or attacks on my cooking, or withdrawal.

As a Woman of Power, I worked hard, at the start of the marriage, at doing what you suggested - saying to him "H, if this bothers you, I will change the way I do it, or stop doing it altogether." But gradually I realised that his bad feelings didn't go away - whatever was worrying him was NOT the thing that had been expressed. So I started trying to 'dig' to get at what was really worrying him, and sometimes managed to get there, but often didn't. So nothing I could do would relieve his hidden fears.

Eventually, I decided that it wasn't my responsibility to work out what was worrying him - it was HIS responsibility to know himself, and to verbalise his feelings if he wanted to affect change. In what still seems to me to be a reasonable use of Power, I decided that I would live my life as seemed fair to me, and if he wasn't OK with it, it was up to him to tell me. I would ask him how he felt about something I was doing, and he would usually say he was fine. On the few occasion when he DID manage to tell me about something he disliked, I treated his feelings with respect and often changed what I was doing. And the end result of that was that he almost never told me about his frustrations and resentments, and instead relieved the pressure by visiting prostitutes and having affairs.

Soon after d-day, some of those resentments made it to the open air, and it became clear that almost all of them were about H's fear that I would outshine him (when we met, I earned more and had a more glamorous job). And yet, he also longed for me to fulfill my potential, and was distressed to see me slowly close down my talents in an effort to make him happy. And that's where we ended up - I closed down my glam-by-comparison career, and then the successful writing career I started when the kids were small, and many other things that I subliminally sensed were 'threatening' to him.

For most of the last three years, since d-day, I have given H an absolutely neutral platform for expressing himself - I listen and stay as neutral and non-judgemental as possible. For the past several months, I have been physically quiet - saying almost nothing, initiating few conversations, keeping my feelings to myself - but this has just produced a world of silence - if I'd don't talk, don't initiate, don't 'make happen', nothing happens. Little has changed; I am still married to the Man of Mystery who gives me almost no feedback on me and my effect on him.

So what does a Woman of Power do in this situation? As I see it, it is his responsibility to express his concerns and fears, and it is my responsibility to respond to those fears with respect. But if he is unable to access his own emotions and get at his fears, then there is little I can do. I have drawn an internal boundary with myself that it is NOT my job to psychoanalyse him to get at his emotions - that's HIS job. It's not my role to second-guess him and 'divine' what he really wants. I have also worked hard on myself to ensure that it's not me who's blocking the expression of his feelings, and that any tiny feeling that lands flapping on the table gets treated tenderly and with respect. But I'm not his parent, and it's not up to me to 'raise him to adulthood'.

Are those reasonable boundaries? Is this using power wisely? Is it even sensible to be in a marriage with a man who I don't and can't 'know'?

Thank you.

TogetherAlone

TOGETHER ALONE:

Any thoughts on the FIGHT OR FLIGHT issue?

I was so struck by how we seem to have a similar reaction to anger..

I have not had chance to read your most recent post....

Forgive me if I should know this and I don't, but did you do any counseling? How did you make these discoveries about your husbands fears? What motivated him to open up here?

My husband is the same way. A man of few words. And I grew up just like Mimi, I did not want to see any anger or anyone unhappy...so what a great match, he never expressed his feelings and I never had to face any anger. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Not so! It caused us many problems. It comes out sideways, in affairs, etc, as we all well know now.

We learned safe expression of our feelings in counseling. My husband is aware of his tendency to keep his feelings in. So,now when I know this is happening all I have to do is sweetly give my little cue that I am aware he is going into his shell and I need us to talk.

As hard as it is for him, he does recognize the problem and he has the desire to change it. I work hard to make it safe for him so that when he does express himself I validate what he says. That means sometimes saying "I'm sorry" and even "you are right and I am wrong" or "I'm sorry it makes you feel that way, what could I do to make you feel better?"

Does your husband recognize that he does this and have a desire to change?

Susan

TA, are you married to my H? Wow, most of our year of MC was dedicated to trying to help my H find and indentify his feelings. It did help to some extent he has opened up quite a bit and no longer withdraws on a regular basis. He even has told me what is bothering him at times. Much of his acting out resulted in A's but I do believe (I hope and pray)that we are done with that particular method of escape. He used to retreat to another room any time the family dynamic became uncomfortable or during our discussions he will "go to sleep". Now we do manage most of the time to have brief (I have to keep them brief for his sake)discussions. Much, much progress. I wish he would go to IC to continue the growth but he won't.

Sorry for the continued t/j

Hi All:

This is so interesting..

I want to share that my H and I went to a Marital Weekend many years ago, pre-A, conducted by HARVILLE HENDRIX who wrote the book, GETTING THE LOVE YOU WANT..you may have seen him on OPRAH..

His theory is that we marry our partners for a reason, to complete each other, to complement what is missing in ourselves.

The most important thing I learned from that weekend is that I am a HAIL STORM and H is a TURTLE. The more TURTLES FEEL, the more they stay inside their shells. The more we HAILSTORMS try to bring them out, the deeper they go in... On the other hand, TURTLES are working to get us HAILSTORMS to go inside. The more they work on getting us to go inside, the more we HAIL. Thus, I get mad and scream, H goes inside the shell, the more I scream, the more he goes inside his shell and then I start breaking glasses... The old pattern.

Hendrix' theory is that we need to stop trying to change each other-that we got married to each other for a reason-that we need to stop trying to change our partners to make them like ourselves. The purpose of the M, according to his theory is, for us to become less emotional and for the TURTLE to show more emotion. Both partners need to work towards the balance...

What I've learned to do is to recognize and accept that my H is a MAN OF ACTION. He expresses his feelings by doing things... I will not be able to change that...

LATER...