thanks guys, I've enjoyed the discussion.

The most powerful lessons I learned in my life has been where my power ends, and control begins. Learning to recognize my power, and to take responsiblity for it has been what has fueled my self-esteem and confidence.

When I stepped out of victimhood, and acknowledged my power - I became clear and confident about my power, ie learned to trust my own ability to care for myself, I was able to feel safe in allowing ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ! ) others to feel or to be who ever or whatever they were, without attempting to control them or the outcomes of situations.

I too grew up in a home where anger was used to control and bash down emotional boundaries.

The most important lesson I had to learn was that "What other people think about me is none of my business". Freeing myself from other's expectations/demands and learning to step up to the responsiblity of my own wellbeing -and learning that what *I* thought about ME was most important of all....what a breakthrough!!!

I have discovered that when I am insecure with my own power and with my own ability to take care of me (draw boundaries), that I attempt to change other's feelings to accomodate MY needs.

So telling one's spouse that his/her feelings are invalid is not only a disrespectful judgement, its also a selfish demand. It says: "Stop feeling XYZ so that I can be comfortable."

And that's where Susan's point is so right ~

Once you know where your power ends and control begins, you can drop the fight or flight reflex and listen to what is being said, and assess if you own any part of the resulting feelings in your spouse. It gives me the freedom to recognize if I have been wrong and/or careless in protection of my spouse, or if the issue is outside of my own power and responsibility.

Bramble you said:



You are so right. KNOWLEDGE AND INSIGHT , gained in IC, was NOT enough for me, though. I think it's the high level of RAW PANIC that is experienced when I get into a situation charged with ANGER . It has takes PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE to stop the REFLEX ....

Thanks for you post, though.

Working on this.....

Just thinking while doing my housework...

What about gender differences as in "MEN ARE FROM MARS..WOMEN FROM VENUS?

In my professional work, MEN dealing with REALLY MAJOR LIFE-CHANGING PROBLEMS tend to not want to look at their feelings. I'm talking NORMAL AND EXPECTED grief and sadness...

And my SONS saying that they feel like "PUNKS" when I ask about their FEELINGS or when they start to EMOTE....

There is a thing I see among MEN about it not being OK to openly EXPRESS FEELINGS....

I have heard my H say: "You want me to WHINE about it,don't you?..." reflecting a negative perception of a normal reaction to events

Women are into *feelings*.

Men are into *facts*. Ever had a problem getting a man to talk about the weather or sports? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Susan

Hi JustJ,

First off I could not top Pep's answer because that is what I would do. You see he is NOT coming to YOU with a concern, he is just blowing off steam and the neat thing about power is you don't have to dance every dance as Pep pointed out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Picking your fights is knowing your power very well.

But, you said other things that are more complex, (now you know why I picked a simple example <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), you said
Ah, but you see the power is the first step. You have the power to decide you will work to solve this problem. That does not mean there is no negotiation or discussion about how best to do it.

He comes to you complaining about something that seems very deep in him. You listen, you determine it is NOT just a bad day, that something is really eating him. You look him in the eye and say "You know what, I realize you are really concerned about this. I will do my best to solve it."

Now in reality you two are going to solve it together IF as you say you don't want resentment to build and you want to solve the REAL problem. But, the power was taking the discussion from a power struggle to a "how to" session.

Now I would complete the rest of the discussion. After a pregnant pause for him to realize you are in fact going to address his concern, you say "now tell me more about what you are thinking and what you think is causing this?" Listen to him, and then start to offer possible solutions that YOU are willing to consider. Now we are POJA ground. The main issue has been settled. You did not bounce it back to him with the well "what would you do?" or "What do you want me to do?" You took it out of the you/me discussion with "I agree, it will be solved."

Now it is US working on it. Does this make sense??

For the latter part of your scenario, I go with Pep. It won't hurt him to miss a meal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I sure would not hurt me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Does this make more sense? As I said power is a subtle thing and people only seem to feel they have it IF they can control something or make things "right", or... But, simply acknowledging his concerns and stating you want to do something to protect him is power, but it is the power to change the course of the discussion, of perception, as Susan suggested Listening can be powerful.

I always sort of view this as martial arts where one wants to economize ones expenditure of energy and use the oppositions energy to turn the tide.

This is getting fun, and it is helping me learn.

God Bless,

JL

thanks JL ... really

Pep,

Now I am confused. I will always accept a good "thanks", but I am not sure for what I am being thanked. You ringing my chimes girl? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Well, I must get back to this proposal I am trying to avoid finishing. So I think a trip to Starbucks is required to get the caffiene level up to a steady hummm.

Pep, you are a treasure on this site and it is always fun talking to you.

JL

Thanks for the good conversation and your point of view which always seems to shed some light into a shadow for me ... it's neat to get your perspective.

PS ... when I ring your chimes ... you'll KNOW !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I really need some advice. My husband of 21 years has had a fling with our childrens friends mom, I am going tonight to meet her husband that has no clue. Should I be really mean and pay them back or should I just tell him and leave?

start a new thread asking for help ... this will get lost here.

good luck

I think that Together Alone and Faithful Follower have both better explained what I was talking about than I did. I guess I would summarize it by saying that it really doesn't work to make yourself smaller in order to help your spouse be bigger. And it doesn't work to allow someone else's emotions to be used against you.

It makes everyone feel yucky.

To Pep's example, let's say that my husband is a manipulative, abusive sort who has training in MB's principles.

Let's say that his response to me saying, "Well, I'm going to have some meatloaf..." is

"I'm not enthusiastic about that."

And to each and every thought that I have thereafter for the rest of the evening, his response is the same. "I'm not enthusiastic about that."

And when, after two hours of this, I finally say, quietly, "I'm very hungry, and I'm very stressed and upset by this discussion. I'm going to take my purse and go out so I can calm down and get something to eat," let's say he blocks the door.

And when I try to find another way out, it becomes a physical struggle in which he ends up striking me several times.

Where along that line did it become abuse? Not when he hit me. Not even when he blocked the door. It became abuse long before that, when he chose to use the words of POJA as an exercise in control and "power over."

I've seen it happen in relationships (including in my own). Although each person has the utter and complete right to feel the emotions that they currently feel, there are limits to how they can express those emotions. The trouble with POJA is that it can become another way to control someone else rather than dealing with the places within yourself where your own emotions arise.

We talk about personal responsibility in a marriage, and how we should always take our spouse's feelings into consideration and only do things that they're enthusiastic about. I agree with that.

At the same time, I think it's impossible to satisfy someone who's stepped into a cycle of control. They'll always find something that's not good enough.

When both people are negotiating from a cooperative state, POJA works. When one or both people are using the trappings of negotiation, but are in a negative emotional state (resentment, fury, anger, fear, inadequacy, control, whatever), then POJA becomes another mind game, not a way to solve problems.

My point is that it's important to recognize that. Lots of new folks who come here, particularly women, read POJA as "I need to be a doormat." They allow their spouses to control them because they don't want to do anything their spouse isn't enthusiastic about, without recognizing that the basic criteria for implementing POJA are not met.

And they also neglect half of POJA, which is that their own needs must be met as well.

I don't think anyone considers POJA the tool of choice when someone is being dangerous.

Let's remove the abuse for a moment and leave in the raw emotional state.

If my husband comes home oozing raw emotionl pain from what I do not know ... I am going to sooth him in ways that I know are effective for him ... because I care. I am not going to place someone in such a precarious emotional state in the position of having to POJA. Now THAT might be cruel!

Mimi,

Repeat after me: Men do not have feelings. Men do not have feelings. Men do not have feelings.

WE do have: egos, "concerns", anxiety (not FEAR <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), allergies in movies <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, and nasal drip in our throats occasionally <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />, But FEELINGS???? Nonsense woman! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Ok, got the idea? Consider why men are taught not to cry, and frankly I taught my sons and my daughter this. Why? When you cry you are blind, you cannot defend yourself, you cannot see what is going on. In the world of sport, and combat crying is fatal because blindness is fatal, and those are two worlds that until recently that were solely a males province.

When making life or death decisions or even good business decisions one cannot let feelings get in the way. One may hate the sorry sucker from company xyz, but you need their product to get on with business, so you bury the feelings and you do business.

But, just remember this there is a reason they don't want physicians operating on a family member no matter if the physician is female OR male, people do have emotions and feelings. Combat would NOT take the emotional toll on people that it does if they did not have them, but one cannot function if one does not control the feelings.

Your sons are being trained to do battle in the world, but that conflicts with the tools one really needs to have a good marriage and family. I have always (yup I am old fashioned felt) that is why there is a male and a female raising children. One to teach and show them about the outside world and another to show them the world they are being taught to surpress so that they can function as caring human beings.

So just remember your sons have: egos, "concerns", anxiety (not FEAR Heaven forbid <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), allergies in movies <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, and nasal drip in our throats occasionally <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />, But FEELINGS????

I'll offer you something else to think about although I am not sure why it struck me just now. But, it is about feelings and handling fear. My father was at Pearl Harbor, and then was in combat for the next 3 years. Someone once asked him why he finally decided to rotate home for awhile. He said: "I knew I had to leave because I was a danger to my men, I no longer feared dying."

Men have them, but they have been trained to and really society expects that they will not let "feelings" interfer with their functioning. So try some other words with the guys in your family and see how it goes.

God Bless,

JL

Awwwh geeze JL, Pep & Mimi....this post requires great patience and intense reading. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> That's what I love 'bout ya all so this means I can't just read the 1st and last page and know how to respond. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ok, I have read some posts and must say I know I need t/g back and read it again to let it sink in. Really sink in. That will take time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JL, good words that as usual make a lot of sense. I miss these deep posts from the past. When I started this kind of thing happened on a regular basis. Not always aimed at a particular person or situation but enough to give us the food for thought so that when the circumstance arose, we already were somewhat prepared and ready to take action. Not run away.

Will be back to read again so keep the 'good stuff coming'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mahalo,
L.

One aspect of business that I consider "power" in some ways, is the challenge to win over those that most people find to be difficult. I take it as a challenge not to feed my ego but to make my work life easier. You would be surprised how much you can do with kindness, respect and a smile. I told one of my co-workers one day that I try to like something about everyone, it makes it easier for me to get along in the work place. I no longer believe, btw, in investing myself emotionally in people I work with. Got in deep doo doo with that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hey, You Guys!

My lightbulb has been blaring, blinking on and off... I have loads to talk about. I hope you all will continue to share....

I am continuing to process all of this.. I may be behind on the posts. I'm still APPLYING PAGE 1 and what WONDROUS RESULTS!!

JL said this:



In the following scenario, I applied the above as well as the sage advice and wisdom from you others--all of you shared in this---

OK, HERE GOES.....

It is obvious that H is MAD at me about an interaction I had with YS. CONTENT of that interaction is significant but for right now I will focus on INTERACTIONS BETWEEN H AND I.

How do I know he is MAD? Voice is LOUD. SARCASM is used. He is DIVERGING from the CONTENT AND CAUSES of his ANGER.

OLD MIMI emerges and says to herself: "I hate for my H (or anyone for that matter but especially him) to be MAD at me". This is scary. Something BAD might happen".

Within SECONDS the new POWERFUL MIMI (profitting from MB emerges): She stops, listens, processes what is going on here, says to herself; "H needs to be relieved of his suffering; he is expressing his concern about his son; he is not going to attack me; I will not attack him; this is OK; I am safe and he is safe; I CAN HELP HIM WITH THIS!!!

I SAY OUT LOUD, in an extremely calm voice (something like this): H you are at 8 on the MAD scale. I don't think it warrants an 8, maybe a 3 but not an 8. Why are you so mad about this?"

MIRACULOUSLY, H almost immediately calms down. You can see relief on his face. He proceeds to explain to me what he is MAD about...

I am able to understand and appreciate his point of view. He is expressing legitimate concern about OUR SON. He is not BEING A SABER-TOOTHED TIGER. H says: "I am saying this BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT HIM". I wasn't able to listen to him when he was STEAMING, though....

We both are calm and are then able to laugh and joke. I tease him later, smack him on the butt and say, "I will have to spank you if you keep getting THAT angry so easily; I like it when you talk to me". He laughs....

OK, FOLKS.... What do you have to say about this???

It occurs to me that finding the courage to face conflict is really just a first step. Forgive me if my thoughts are some what redundant but I think it’s really important to note that how a person learns to manage conflict is almost more important then learning to face up to it in the first place. And for a CAer, this can really be problematical…

How can there not be a question in one’s mind…that in seeking the correct course of action…to manage a situation…that we are not in actuality just rationalizing our further avoidance…in dealing with the problem?

Toward this end, I think that most of us need to learn the simple power of silence. The power inherent…in simply communicating attentiveness, caring, willingness to understand and yes…even disagreement concerning the issue at hands…just by listening…and doing so with out comment…realizing that being in the moment isn’t always the right time… never mind the only time…to respond.

It’s important that we all understand that being right and expressing one’s rightness is with out meaning…unless we can make ourselves be herd. It’s also important that we understand that every question…assertion…or complaint…doesn’t warrant…need… or even deserve to be answered…that every action doesn’t need…or just plain shouldn’t be defended.

Yes…we all need to learn…to face the conflicts that have the power to damage our lives…but we also need to learn that in exercising or willingness to confront…that doing it right is where the personal power we hope to manifest…truly resides.

Coach

Mimi,
Isn't it wonderful how much we can learn, and grow personally by reading here. Speaking for myself of course.

There is power in knowing ones limits, because it keeps us from getting in over our head.

Sometimes it could be construed as CA to wait until we are emotionally ready to face a problem.

I believe it's an unexact science. Power is knowing ones strengths, and weaknesses. Using the strengths, staying away from situations when the weaknesses will let one down.

Interresting how all of this discussion applies to marriage building.

SS

I know, I know, I'm a grown woman and stuff...

But, the child inside of me is wanting some stroking...

You guys joined with me in this...

So did I do good or not??

Just wondering...

THANKS STILL AND COACH for your POST....

Anybody else out there??