Hello,

Knowing what you know today, would you marry her all over again? She gave you an STD. What more should be said. She is still lying to you. You really have no future with her and I think you know this.

grove..have you done some investigation on narcissism? It's more uncommon for a woman to have that affliction but your wife's lack of remorse and denial is baffling in light that it's so obvious. Smothering parents often create narcissism as they stunt the growth and development that naturally occurs in the personality. There's so much disfunction in this family. Every family has their "black sheep" but this family is rifled with them. The fact that your wife stopped going to counseling may indicate there's something there she's unable to look at. As the old saying goes, you can't rake leaves in the desert. If she's not willing to make the effort to go to counseling or make any effort to mend your marriage, it may be time for Plan B...or D

grove, I know what your are dealing with. When I made a full disclosure to my mother about what was going on, I asked her what she would do if I got caught on a weekend date two hours from home. She informed me that she would drag me by the ear to apologize and would oversee my recovery. I really want to ask my in-laws about how great it must be to belong to a church that does not recognize the ten commandments. I might get my chance soon.

Grove, if I can go back to your original post, I’m REALLY sorry you had to hear what you did, but common sense dictates that once you have established there is no contact with the OP, snooping on conversations between your wife and her relatives or friends must stop IF your ultimate goal is recovery. Hearing what you did was NOT intended for your ears and is going to be very difficult for you to forget.

Bottom line: You are doing yourself no favors by listening to your wife vent to others. It really is no different for her to discuss her version of the relationship than it is for you to do so here or with friends. The difference is that she is not privy to your words while you are privy to hers. Many BSs DJ the heck out of their spouses on this site with the idea that this is a place they can safely vent. If their WS were to find out about their actual “venting”, their actual words, recovery would be set that much farther back, if it happened at all.

The reason I am cautioning you on this is that H and I spent over 5 months just trying to convince a stubborn BS to expose to the OM’s wife. He spent 8 or 9 months listening to every conversation his wife had with anyone with the result that he became more and more angry. When exposure finally happened, the affair bit the dust big time. (duh) Even though contact was never in doubt after exposure , he continued to snoop and ended up hearing not A conversations but surprise, surprise: the full brunt of her wrath towards HIM. He heard waaaaay more than he wanted to and definitely way more than he needed to.

For over a year we were trying to get him through the MB concepts, and it was all undermined by his refusal to stop snooping. I think it was sort of his version of having power over her…this time, he was the one who knew something she didn’t. You can imagine the tension in that house, the affair is dead in the water but she mourns her loss while he listens. She rants and raves against him while he listens. She reveals sexual complaints about him she’s never shared with him while he listens. He puts on a phony face when he comes home at night after listening to her spill her guts. FOG TALK that he takes as her "true" feelings, her "forever" feelings. Do you get the picture? How on earth is he supposed to maintain any love for her, how is he supposed to even WANT recover after hearing all that?

We found out a few weeks ago that the stubborn BS is now a WS in a full blown affair of his own that “just happened”, NOT!!!!! He’s now justifying getting his bruised ego stroked by a MOW and he is sort of avoiding us. It really burns me that all of this could have avoided by not continuing to listen in when the affair was clearly over. I feel that they really did have a solid chance to save their marriage after the A was exposed and decimated but he screwed it up by keeping his own little secret...it looks to be out the window at this late date. H won’t let me expose but that’s a whole other story.

I’m hoping to appeal to your common sense here, Grove. I don’t know your entire story, how long since DD, contact ect. but IF you have confidence in no contact, please consider the damage you may be doing to yourself by listening in on her vents. As my DH said to the BS/WS….if she knew what YOU said about her to me, do you really think she would believe that you are telling the truth about wanting the marriage, what would SHE think?

Context is important, talking with someone who "understands" your personal point of view is going to be different from talking with someone who doesn't. You and your wife are NOT on the same page right at this moment but you could be in the future. Some of this is up to you and some is up to her and if recovery is what you truly want, the scales must be tipped in your favor. Vents to others are just vents, and should be treated as such. Indulging in purposefully/accidentally listening to them may not be healthy for you or the marriage at this point, kwim?

The FIL/MIL issues are huge but your job is to become an Attractive Spouse if you really want to win your wife back…..it’s just too darn hard to BE attractive when you are listening to conversations not meant for you to hear. I’m all for snooping when necessary but you do need to make a decision at some point about when it has become more destructive to you and your marriage than helpful. I’m feel terrible that you have to go through this, it is crappy stuff and I’d hate to see beaten down to the point that it is damaging to your marriage, but most especially to YOU. KB

knewbetter, we understand your concepts but they do not apply in this case. Grove does not know if contact has ended. He does not know what type of relationship that his wife had. Whether it was EA or PA, it was inappropriate. His W refuses to discuss the matter or give him any details for closure. In his situation, not snooping would be disastrous. He needs to know what he is married to in order to see if the M is worth saving.

Bob, as I said, if contact is still an issue then this wouldn't apply. My main concern for Grove is hearing what amounts to venting on his wife's part to her mother and taking it as the gospel truth when in actuality she is FOGGED. She needs to be taken with a grain of salt at this point.

It reminded me of the sort of talk the WS/BS was listening to so I put it up as a caution as to what can happen. It's awful Grove heard what he heard and if he can establish that NO CONTACT is in place, maybe he can move beyond the hurtful words. I really hope so.

BTW, the purpose of snooping is not to find out *what* you are married to, it is to facilitate the end of the affair and the beginning of recovery. If taken beyond necessity it can have a very negative effect on the betrayed spouse and the marriage. KB

knewbetter, I understand what you mean, but GT does not know if the affair is ended. His W continues to lie to him and recently had contact. So he doesn't know one way or the other.

I also would disagree that one should stop snooping once contact has ended. Snooping should continue until trust is restored. And trust is not restored just because a WS "says" that contact is ended. TRust must be earned, and the way it is earned is by demonstrating trustworthy behavior, when they think no one is looking. Trust appropriately, but always verify, is my motto...

Yeah Mel, I'm with you but snooping that is invasive after contact is over as in the recording of personal conversations or purposefully eavesdropping is quite different than "snooping" (I wouldn't even call it snooping actually) as in reviewing cell bills, phone bills, checking mileage or computer records and generally keeping tabs on a spouse.

Eavesdropping on a daily basis is what the BS/WS I was talking about did and it certainly backfired. No matter, Grove is not in that position and needs to use any and all sources of info available at this point. Just don't take it too much to heart, Grove...it's not cast in stone. KB

Ok, sorry I haven't responded.

KB, I actually liked your first post, and found some of it very insightful. I believe that contact has been stopped (for now), but will begin back up when the school year starts back. There seems to still be contact between OM and WW's close friend. I don't know what that is about. This woman is honestly messed up in the head, and since she knows how I feel about her, I'd say she would love to get rid of me. The point is, there seems to still be some lingering going on around me. I'm just not sure how involved my wife is in it right now. Because of her recent actions, I have to assume the worst. But you weren't completely off base. I was also interested in finding out what or who I was married to. I just don't know who she is anymore and I do have concerns that the affair is not completely over.

Bob and Mel are right on about my situation. My wife just hasn't done anything to restore trust. Ok, she does call me daily to tell me where she is, but other than that, there's not been much. She's not hateful, she's sometimes loving and has apologized often, but she just isn't willing to do anything other than not file for divorce and that seems to be on the horizon if her conversation with her mother is to be believed.

Mel, I posted something above that I was hoping to get your input on. If you get time, I'd really appreciate the help. I feel bad, I know you have a life outside of worrying about GTO, but if and when you get a chance I'd appreciate it. You, Bob and many of the others have been my lifeline throught this ordeal. THANKS

GT, I did read your post and I don't have an answer for you. You know the situation and you know that it is not likely to ever change unless you do something different. I don't know what that something different is.

I want to say that maybe things will change as the fog wears off, but.......the fog won't wear off if they continue to work together. And I even doubt that "fog" is the issue, but rather an issue of character. I just don't see that your W is going to magically wake up one day and see the error of her ways.

I think she is very destructive and cares more about covering her [censored] than she does about your mental or physical health. You have to make the choice if you can live with that or not. I wish I could be more helpful but I just don't know how.

Thanks Mel, unfortunately we're pretty much on the same page. I think one of the toughest things about this mess is discovering that my wife truly doesn't care about my feelings or my health. Sure she cries when she sees I'm down, but she refuses to make any kind of self sacrifice to help fix this mess that she has created.

The only thing that seems to shake her is when we have serious discussions about divorce. But this is usually only for a few minutes and then the Ice Queen Returns.

I love this woman Mel, I'm not even sure why anymore, but I do. I just can't see any way for this to work if she doesn't make some serious effort towards recovery and find a new job.

Today after we talked and I said that it is now completely in her hands, that I will no longer try to save our marriage and that if she did nothing than I would take that as an answer and file for divorce. It is now up to her to save our marriage. After saying this, she immediately got up and dialed the job hotline for her school district. Of course she didn't like any of the positions that are available, so it was just for show. But it was a nice show, and I haven't gotten much of that in the past 5 months.

Thanks again Mel, I hope you have a great weekend.

GTO

I know how you feel but in time your taker is gonna start screaming to have it's needs met. Then what? All that 'show' the WS puts on will start to irriate your taker who BTW, doesn't love your W as much as your giver does. Eventually your giver will start liking her less also. A lot less.

Just a matter of time. The games the WS play are not fun and don't keep a BS occupied forever (unless the BS is really thick-skulled).

JMHO,
L.

I think you're saying that I'm going to get tired of this eventually. I'm already there, I'm just having trouble getting myself and my wife out of this rut. She's not willing to do ANYTHING I've asked. So I'm running out of options here very quickly. If you consider 5 months quick.

Thanks all, this is helping me get some perspective.

grove

as a BS looking on this situation of yours disassionately I have to wonder if your WW?? still thinks its possible to have a 'friendship' with the OM and keep you as her H just by pretending it never happened.

If you are so near leaving this M what about very clearly in writing set out those things you require your WW to do to retain the M.

MC of your choice - because I'm not sure from your description that she'd chose a good one;

total NC - not even second hand knowledge from friends;

any info given her about OM you get told right away & the source;

etc etc as you feel is important.

consequences of not doing this = divorce.

Sometimes WW are so confused they cant even remember the time of day let alone what exactly you spoke about a few days ago.
Maybe its time for a plan B letter???

grove, did we marry twins that were separated at birth? You put my situation in a nutshell in describing yours. My WW is more worried about "covering her [censored]" than saving the M. You have also started using my "ice queen" quote.

Both our WW's got defintely caught in inappropriate relationships. We both confronted them and they lied. We found out more info and they admitted only as far as the concrete info that we had and nothing further. We both do not know exactly how far the A went or if it has really ended.

We both have a MIL who sees no wrong in their child and will back them no matter what they have done. I think that my MIL has counseled my WW to not admit anything no matter what because this would hurt her in a D action. They both refuse to discuss anything no matter how badly it hurts us and the M. It is obvious that both feel completely justified in what they did because of something that they perceive that we did wrong or did not give them.

We both know that all they want is for us to drop things and not mention them again. We both know that if we do this, we will be back in this situation in a year or two when they get mad or unhappy again. So what do we do? I honestly do not know but I am going to handle mine the only way that I can live with it even if it leads to D. I have decided to take my life back and to D her if the M and I are not her first priority. If you have any thoughts, let me know.

GTO,

If you are getting worn out from this A game of hers, then it m/b time to consider plan B. Secure your financial piece and your family then move to plan B. If she needs to keep the OM in her life, then she must lose others. Then the OM will have to meet her needs and that in itself c/b more than he is willing t/d.

L.

Okay Grove, here's my 2 cents. First of all....don't worry about what your MIL says about you she is [color:"red"]projecting her feelings about her own slimy husband onto you [/color] , so just put that out of your mind, I mean how many people really are madly in love with their in-laws anyway??? Most just tolerate them.

2nd of all, you are expecting things from your wife that she is incapable of being, since she is a WS.....
OF COURSE she's going to lie to you.... THEY ALL DO , [color:"red"] OF COURSE [/color] she cares more about covering her [censored] then your feelings THEY ALL DO .

You have to STOP thinking of this woman as the person you married, because, quite simply, right now, she's not.

DO NOT feel guilty about snooping.....she's the one that put you in the position to have to snoop in the first place. My FWH screamed bloody murder about my snooping.....yeah, I didn't give a crap...it's self preservation, and you shouldn't feel remotely guilty about it..... PEOPLE WITH NOTHING TO HIDE, HIDE NOTHING .

Now, I haven't kept really close tabs on your sitch, have you been plan Aing???? You should Plan A the living crap out of her, and DO NOT tell her about your snooping, just gather the intel, and keep it safe, and don't tell her about it, keep plan Aing.

My husband VERY RARELY lied to me during my Plan A (After exposure) because I didn't ask him any questions......*Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies*, I didn't give him any reason to lie to me.......he was coming to see me (We were separated) I was meeting his EN's like a crazy person, and not expecting anything in return, soooooooo guess who was getting lied to????? THE OW. That gave me some comfort, now she was getting the snow job <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

After you have done a FANTASTIC plan A, and you don't feel like you can give another ounce of energy towards it......Go to Plan B.....she's see-sawing, she doesn't want to end it with either one of you........You need to make her see the err of her ways.

You can do it sweetie, I know you can. (Get plan B advice from someone else.....because I was a plan B failure...and it's messed my recovery up MAJOR LEAGUE [I do everything [censored] backwards...lol])

-Caren

I'm with Orchid on this one. The intense emotional chaos that's going on in your world is very damaging to you, to your wife, to your whole family.

I would suggest that perhaps you should look at either Plan B or a controlled separation. It's time to be realistic about what's going on, and to take a hard look at your marriage and its flaws.

Those flaws can still be repaired. Right now one important step to repairing those flaws may be to get some distance from the chaos so that you can do a little personal healing and recovery, and so that you can find and understand a healthier approach to marriage than the one that you're embroiled in right now. That's a very difficult step to take, of course. It's never easy to separate from someone you love. You and your wife are at each other's throats right now, though, and that's not helping you to take a fearless moral inventory (borrowed words, for those that know them, but they apply so well) of your marriage and your role in it.

Truthfully I never really did a plan A, I started to and my wife started talking about loving me again during it, but then she had the contact again and sent me back to ground zero. Since then, I've been love busting daily.

We went to her 20 year reunion last night. She ignored me all night. There was a group photo with spouses, she sat up front with some girls and when I sat down beside them, she says only girls should sit up here and it was rude of me to ask if I could trade places with one of her friends. She claims she said to stand behind her, but I didn't hear it, plus I would have had to ask a large number of people to move. She never considered moving to be close to me. Later that night I started to head out to the car. She saw me and asked where I was going. I told her I was going to take a drive, that she had ignored me all night, and I felt out of place and was I upset/bored. I said that this was her night and to go have some fun. I told her that she could call me on her cell when she was ready to go home. She threw a fit and said, "I'll just go home, I knew you'd ruin this night for me. We didn't leave, I told her I would go back in, that I this was her night and I didn't want to ruin it.

When we got home she asked it I ended up having a good time. I told her to please not do this, I didn't want to go down this road. She pushed and said how I ruin everything. I told her that she completely ignored me and how telling that was. I tried to talk to people, but you can only talk to people you don't know for so long before it gets awkward. That I sat and watched how other spouse treated each other and how jealous I was. She said she was too.

This morning, I woke up to her stroking my face and crying. She said how sad she was that we were fighting all of the time. We talked until the phone rang and it was a friend of hers that moved out of state. Basically, she wants to love me, but she doesn't. She knows that she should probably find another job, but if she does she will resent me for it.

The conversation is still ongoing, but for the most part it's about how much damage we both have done and that neither of us thinks we can recover from it.

I just want to add one little side note. I know I have portrayed my wife as some kind of evil, uncaring witch. She's not, she is the life of the party. She's goofy, funny and a very caring person. Right now, it seems that she's unable to direct much of that towards me, but she's not a horrible person. She did a horrible thing, but I don't believe she is a evil, horrible person. I think her morals are a little off center right now, but that might be she's still in the fog, or she just doesn't love me and can't bring herself to act like she does. The fact she resents me for asking her to do what I feel is the bare minimum to save this marriage, is very telling.