Having gone four months into my personal ordeal, now that some finality (D) is in the air, I have a questions about something that may be common among us BS's...

I am very aware that I NEED some validation from a woman that I am a (relatively) attractive man. I would love nothing better than to sit with a lovely lady and just TALK...

Don't get me wrong...the SF coals are still stoked! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Even if it was only for an hour, just talking to a SINGLE lady and have that feeling that we are BOTH lucky to be in each others company at that MOMENT...would do worlds of good for me.

It's not that my self-esteem is in the toilet or I think that women find me repulsive...

I just need validation...

I guess after being sexually and emotionally cast aside, it must be a common feeling. Any other BS's with me on this one?

Does that make sense?

WNB

I still wrestle with the nagging voice that tells me my presence is something I inflict on a woman. Well, actually, it's not sex-specific: I wrestle with the feeling that my presence is oppressive to everyone and, expressions of appreciation to the contrary, this is a legacy of my marriage I have not yet entirely succeeded in banishing from my life.

Fortunately, at an objective level, I have no doubt that I have a lot to offer. That helps. But I am also aware that even something very valuable can be rejected or tossed out with the trash if it's not what someone wants. Being appreciated as a person and as a friend is a far cry from being appreciated as a lover or potential marriage partner.

Gnome makes a great point that there's no accounting for the vagaries of individual taste.

I know that kind of aching need for validation hurts. Please just be careful to take care of yourself -- that's a big opening for a manipulator to zoom in on. Please don't let someone use your grieving for what you've been through against you.

Yes. I know how you feel. I think this is one reason why its very important to give yourself planty of healing time before dating again after your divorce. This "neediness" can lead you into relationships for the wrong reasons - choosing someone because they are "anyone" giving you validation. It's good that you recognize this. Seek validation elsewhere... you can feel validated (I knowwwwwwww, it's not the same) from other sources, and can help fill the void and make you feel complete. Validation from female coworkers and friends can also help, just be very cautious - thinking of them as sisters can help - so that lines won't cross into too much flirting, romance or affairs.

We're glad you're here!!! (Does that help? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />)

(((((WNB)))))

Thanks Faith!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You hit the nail on the head...I have to (and will be) VERY careful when I re-enter the "dating pool". Nothing more attractive than a "needy" man huh?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I think I am OK with feeling this way as long as I am AWARE of it and I DON'T let it make decisions for me...

My (eventual) dating goal...have fun with fun ladies...

My LONG-term goal...find a REAL and committed relationship.

I saw and elderly couple on the plane two weeks ago...they STILL held hands AND he moved over in his seat so his wife could nap on his shoulder a little easier...that's what I want...

*sigh* dream........

This and the dreamy reply reminds me of a joke.

There was this couple in their 80s driving to dinner. They stop at a stoplight and see a young couple in the car ahead of them at the light. The young girl is practically sitting in the guys lap. The elderly wife turns to her husband behind the wheel and says to him, "How come we don't do that anymore? We used to do that."

The husband turns to his wife and says, "Dear, I'm still sitting in the same place I was last time we did that. I'm not the one who sits farther away now!"

T

You are right gnome, your presence is oppressive and unworthy, why don't you take your marbles and go home, quit inflicting your gloom on others.

___________________________________________


Ok, obviously knight50 does not behave this way, so is part a humor that just maybe gnome will appreciate being the contemplative guy he is (if not I will explain it later). But also gnome, I am hoping there was a least a little (if not a lot) flash of anger (and no, the rest of you who got angry for a moment don't count...sorry). If there was, then deep down you "know" the truth, you are worthy, so the solution is to reorder your thought life, and quash these kinds of thoughts whenever they arise, develop a mantra or something, you know the drill.

....Knight walks away carefully looking for incoming ordnance from trigger happy shooters who did not stop to consider shock therapy is sometimes effective, but is risky to the practicioner!!!.....

Yes, Sir50, I do know the drill, since cognitive therapy is particularly effective for my mentality, and my erstwhile therapist was smart enough to recognize that fact. I can also appreciate the value of what you call "shock therapy."

Alas, parroting my own words back to me was a bit too blunt for me to interpret even a first reading as anything other than an attempt at jocularity. And even if I had not automatically made that presumption, I am so habitually unassuming that I always consider outright belligerence to be a response to something that has little to do with me.

It is the subtle, most likely unintentional slights that give me trouble. Simple things like hearing that a bunch of friends went out and did something together, and realizing that none of them thought to invite me.

All the same, it's tempting to insert your quote into my signature...

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"You are right gnome, your presence is oppressive and unworthy, why don't you take your marbles and go home, quit inflicting your gloom on others." - knight50

Hey, Gnome, I know what you mean about the subtle slights. Sometimes I think people haven't a clue where I'm coming from and haven't the slightest interest in what I say. My feelings get hurt.

Then I remember the story of the Ugly Duckling. The ducks just didn't understand him. They thought he was strange. He figured he was an oddball. Until he found some swans and discovered he fit in perfectly with them.

So, when someone acts bored around me, or looks at me like I'm bizarre, I give myself a little shake and say "Duck."

I, of course, am a swan.

Well, a swan with a rather short neck.

As for validation, I seem to be getting my share in an off hand manner. No, what I'd really like is a serious french kissing session with a really good kissing. No one sloppy or stiff or groping. It's been soooooooooo long. Oh, well. I'll live.

ok gnome, you gota laugh out of me, now please remove me from your sig line....pretty please.

As for the other, it was 2 leveled, and you got it pretty much, an attempt at "therapy" wrapped up in an apparent jocularity. Who was that said jocularity jocularity, wasn't it radar on mash?

Interesting that you presume you can not be aggressed, not sure what to make of that...maybe you should go out an insult a few guys and engage in some "physcial" therapy, I can assure you you will be "seen". Methinks you hide your emotions too much in a ridgid cage of rationality (flavored by denial). But I see you are working on that...in the end the therapy is pretty simple, just go out and jump in with both feet, plenty of "books" now giving the basic blueprint.

Greengables, that duck thing is great, ah yes, hopeless romantics are so....well romantic.

Not to worry, knight50, I never actually put that quote in my sig, I just faked it.

I can of course be aggressed, and I have no doubt that I can provoke aggression as well. In my younger years it was not uncommon for my bluntness to cause hurt which I never expected or intended, and - given my empathic streak - I attempted to develop diplomacy to minimize such occurrences. The reason I do not expect or personalize aggression is simply that I try not to be emotionally provocative.

On the matter of hiding my emotions behind my rationality, intellectualization is a well-established ego-defense mechanism and I'm good at it. I actually am well in touch with my feelings, but I tend to set them aside for later processing when it is "safe" for me to do so, instead of allowing myself to be ruled by them in their immediate context. This does make me relatively unreactive or slow in social settings, which is something I am working on - that is, being more selective in what I defer - but it also makes me very level-headed and even-tempered.

I've read a number of books with the hope of upgrading my social intelligence. Unfortunately, a lot of what I'm reading is pretty close to what I've thought I've actually been doing. This suggests that either my perceptions are off (on what I'm doing or on how other people are reacting), or else I'm just too weird for the vast majority of other people to be comfortable with.

That's where the Ugly Duckling thing comes in, and I do apply the cognitive script which says different is not inferior. Unfortunately, as I recall the Ugly Duckling story, he (she?) eventually found other swans and a place of belonging, while I cannot escape the suspicion that there are no other Gnomes.

No one is that unique gnome, there are other gnomes, even psychopaths find partners (thinking of that woman serial; killer, who was just released in canada, her serial killer lover still in jail). Anyways not to link you with psychopaths...chuckle...

I feel a little kindredness cause I sorta have a similar temperament to you, especially in the hiding emotions behind rationality, but still percieveing emotions quite well. It does make you unreactive, and it will interfere with relationship building, and it is a "choice" (as opposed to unchageable programmin). My advice, let the reins out (I know, easy to say), and just let others experience your emotional responses, not just your rational ones, you will like the outcome. I know sounds simple, and it is, but won't "feel" so simple...so....just...do....it. Like jumping out of an airplane, it feels dangerous, and you have no way of knowing you will live, but you have some expectation the parachute will open...so you ...just...do...it. Rejection, and or hurting anothers feelings won't really hurt you, you just think/feel it does, and therein lies the difficulty. You think you are being rational, but you are not, you are actually reacting gnome, and that is a "feeling".

It is wonderful you are in touch with your feelings, we all should be...but it isn't worth a plugged nickle to you until OTHERS are in touch with your feelings. Relationships are about feelings, so if no one sees your feelings (in real time, not an email 6 months later), they cannot build a relationship with you. Frankly, do you really want to find another "gnome" in that sense....be awful, no feelings exchanged in real time. But you will find women who are even-tempered, less "reactive", willing to resolve conflict by in-depth perusal of the issues, won't take offense easily (or at all, fellow truthseekers)...etc, etc. I know, I have, took a while, and some changes on my part, and no idea how it will work out for sure, but made a friend who values these sorts of things the same as I do. In fact, maybe moreso...laughing....sometimes the rational "intensity" exhausts me, I didn't think that was possible...chuckle.

btw, re the woman you are in an unrequited love relationship with. Perfect example, unless you seek a single life with "female" friends, you need to find out the truth about her. Maybe she really likes you, maybe not, you cannot tell because you are preventing that truth be revealed, she isn't going to do it for you, and your unwillingness to risk rejection (the end of the friendship) is very unattractive to the kind of woman you seek. At some primal level she is waiting to see what you will do, she doesn't even know how she will react, she is just waiting. Pursuit is both rational and emotional, so you will experience limited success if you favor one over the other (rational in your case, a check-list of compatibility you present, and suggest hey we should date...nah, don't work that way). There have to be significant expressions/actions of an emotional nature also. Let me ask you something Gnome, you fear pursuing her cause you risk losing the friendship (I realize you are not that worried about rejection per se, your self-esteem is ok more or less), that fear is unattractive, and rightly so, it tells us something about comfortzones, and that is a trait we all "emotionally" assess about a potential partner.

You have done things right, you made a friend, however that happened...and find you have a romantic interest (you do "feel" this don't you, not just a laudary list thingy I hope)...and you bogged down. I forget how much effort you have made to "date" (some I recall), but you haven't followed through (maybe). Make it clear (in emotional terms, not a list of why we should date, or compatibilities), you are smitten by her, and suggest some kind of date that makes sense...but make it clear you are gone if this doesn't happen...and that will be the hard part for you.

I don't mean gone in a argumentative sense, but that you "seek" a long term healthy relationship with a like-minded woman, and must expend your energies in that search, that you really are attracted to her mind, personality, but if she is not curious about you, you wish her well in her life, consider her a friend, but won't be hanging around much (so to speak)....anyways, you figure out how to do that, maybe the girls here can make suggestions...but the point is this must be resolved (for your own growth), you must stick your neck out, and you must be ready,willing,able to walk away from this woman (in the sense of vesting (time, thought, emotions) resources in other prospects. The combination of your emotional "pursuit" and changing (distancing) the relationship will give her the information she needs to know (feel), about you. It is impossible to predict what will happen, she doesn't know, no matter what she has said, or behaved like till now.

Another thing, you need a coach, you pretty much know what to do, and why, and understand yourself, you just need someone on you butt holding you accountable....there are dating coaches, find one.

btw ....yeah that fake was good, fooled me, thx for removing it though...and we are even.

For me, what I have found, is when I am lacking something in my life... when I really examine what I am doing... it's because I am not giving it out. "Reap what you sow" kinda thing. You must give out what you want to receive in return. Give love, in order to receive it. Give approval, in order to receive it. Give validation in order to recieve it. Of course - not necessarily to the same person. But whatever you are *doing*.... whatever you are *being*... will come back to you.

The world is a mirror....

well, just watch out for the sociopaths/narcissits though faith...smile....it is a jungle out there, with lots of mirrors though too.

I don't know that it's that simple, Faith. People are most likely to validate others who are similar to them. Aethists are an unlikely source of validation for true believers, and vice versa. My example is extreme but I think it's true in less dramatic instances. B and I couldn't validate each other becuase we were too different.

As for finding other Gnomes, have you checked the garden recently? Or maybe other people's gardens?

Knight, I'm not at all a hopeless romantic. I am a pragmatist. I refuse to be a romantic or a Neo-Romantic. Although, I adore Byron. (See, I'm out there in my own way. I know perfectly well Knight wasn't talking about the Romantic Movement of the early 19th Century, but my mind went there. Then, I couldn't resist the urge to show off. Luckily, I rarely voice these flights of fancy when I'm in company. People would really stare.)

Of course. I agree with this statement. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I haven't looked up the true definitions of "validation", but to me, it means acknowledging someone... that they're in the room... that they are speaking... that they took the time to share, come to the party, voice their opinion at a meeting, etc etc. Validation of their existance, efforts, opinions, value/worth, contribution, feelings... it is *not* agreement or approval... or sameness or likeness.

Like I said, maybe I have the wrong definition in mind. So, if I'm using the word wrong, I apologize. But now I've described the concept I had in mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Which, by the way, I've seen Atheists "validate" (?) -> "respect the belief" of Believers.

And my statement *was* simplistic and general (reap what you sow). But it seems to work. People that are loving and generous, usually get that in return (and usually have many blessings in their life). People that are grumpy and rude, usually get that in return (and are usually alone). I know that when I consciously spend a week praising everyone around me for *something* they've done well, it rubs off, and most people will start doing it as well.

I hope this comes across as intended. I struggle with this stuff. I'm very logical and cautious myself... tend to think more like Gnome myself actually... would usually rather sit at home and decide that noone understands me... and noone wants to be in my presence.... and I really have a hard time tolerating others. But I battle these thought processes with simplistic (?) concepts like the above, and trying to find the positive aspects about the world, and trying to step out of my comfort (negative) zone.

Unfortunately, this is not what is happening. I am willing to risk the end of our friendship, and she has already told me how she feels about me. She likes me - but not in "that" way. The only real mystery is whether her feelings might change if I were permitted to "romance" her.

This I agree with. Unfortunately, I am in a real bind, since I am extremely limited in what I can do in the "romantic" arena due to the boundaries which she has established. If I do not show myself able and willing to honor her boundaries, then I am neither the man I want to be nor the man she deserves.

Fortunately, I am clever and creative. I believe there is just enough wiggle room to honor both the letter and the spirit of her boundaries, and yet to also keep her aware of what I think and how I feel about her. I expect the occasional opportunity to offer a thought-provoking intimation that her perspective might be a bit narrower than is best for her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Understand that if I am not to "hang around" her, I would have to discontinue a number of my favorite activities and remove myself from my most valued social circles. These are things I do and people I spend time with regardless of whether or not she happens to be around - as she well knows. We do not have much one-on-one time, and when we do it is not with the purpose of just "hanging around." I am willing to pay the price of losing all this - or risking it - if there is reason to do so; but I see no such reason. In the natural course of events, exploring other romantic possibilities should have minimal impact on the nature and amount of time I spend with my lady friend.

Obviously, the continuing contact and friendship could be an obstacle toward forming other romantic attachments, but that too is a risk I am willing to take. I believe I know myself well enough to have legitimate confidence that if I do find another woman who would be a good match, the problem will not be insuperable.